Roo Systems ECU Remap, including EGR system disable and catch can fitting - booked in

[bjasch94]

Hi all,

I bit the bullet today and have booked in an ECU remap with Roo Systems. It's something I've been pretty keen to do for a while.

I know they haven't had the best reception on here due to their high price tags so at the very least everyone can get some good information from my experiences.

Their customer service has been excellent. Over the last six months I've had an unthinkable amount of time on the phone to the same guy discussing the product and how it will affect the car, also I've discussed the details of how they do the tune and the tests they conduct. I've chewed their ear about the EGR valves and the option of fitting a catch can or not etc... they've been very happy to talk to me and so really in the end all of that is why I've gone with them.

In any case I'm looking forward to some good results. It's booked in for next Wed 16th Aug. In the end I'll get all the print outs from their testing before and after the tune - all of which I'll share on this thread so everyone can have a gander.

Price:
$1695 - ECU Custom Remap inc. EGR system disable
$485 - Catch can install
Total: $2180

Oh, and I have a 2012 D4 SDV6 3.0L.

Cheers,

Brad.

[Milton477]

Should be an interesting read. Looking forward to it.
Are you currently monitoring boost pressures , EGT, engine temperature etc. at present so that you have a before & comparison?

[Strop]

Brad, how many kms has your vehicle done. Very interested as I have same model. Would also be interested in how much gunk has built up in your system as well.

[cruiseh]

Following with interest..

does your car have DPF?

[cuppabillytea]

Wow that is expensive.

Before you fork out all those bickies, you should at the very least talk to Pete Bell at Bell Auto Systems in The UK.
Many of us here have tweaked our Defenders with a BAS remap. The bonus is yo get diagnostic and fault clearing ability.
There is no shortage of ecstatic raves on here about BAS.

Having said that. I'm sure you get what you pay for with Gleno. and he's right there with you in Brisbane.

[Lee Jackson]

I too am following this thread with interest. Its something I thought I would do too along with the 3" exhaust. Brad did they mention that.

[bjasch94]

No my car doesn't have a DPF.

It's just coming up to 104k kms now.

Just had it serviced and there were no issues. There was a soot build up as you'd expect but nothing major though.

Yes the 3" exhaust was spoken about a lot. Ironically the reason I'm not getting it is because of the price. Their justification is that due to the two turbos and therefore "two exhausts" the exhaust package costs a lot more. An extra $2495 plus $260 to fit. Crazy money if 2+ grand wasn't crazy enough.

I'll likely eventually get a performance exhaust. Just not from Roo Systems. We'll see I guess.

[bjasch94]

Also, no I'm not monitoring EGTs and boost pressure. Only because I don't have the means to do so.

Ive been assured by the lads at roo systems though that they'll be collecting that data on the "control test" before they commence the remap. Obviously monitoring these values over a longer period of time is ideal, but it'll be better than no idea at all.

[Chops]

Brad, getting the remap done now, and then maybe an exhaust later, will that mean you'll have to have them go over the car again later to tweak it perhaps,, to make use of the better breathing the car will have ?

[shanegtr]

I know they haven't had the best reception on here due to their high price tags so at the very least everyone can get some good information from my experiences.


And here I was thinking that they where just another cheap and nasty 4wd action advertiser[biggrin]

[DiscoMick]

What are their predictions about engine temperatures? Do your cooling system and intercooler need upgrading?

[PeterJ]

Thanks Brad, will be very interested to see how it goes. What is the thought behind the catch can? Was it roo systems recommend or something you decided to do?
Peter

[bjasch94]

Catch can - initially it was something I thought of doing. Although since then (and after a few professional opinions) I've actually decided to forego it. Although I've seen the good things they do when fitted to older vehicles (D2s and Defenders perhaps), the word is that the D4 3.0L has nearly no blow-by and therefore even over something like 10 years, its not worth it. I'm pretty happy to take this advice since it knocks $485 off the order.

The main issue - as I think most are aware of - is the EGR system. I'm having this completely disabled as part of the remap. On an interesting side note: they seems reluctant to use the word 'disable' when talking about the EGR system... they were initially talking about 'winding it back to minimum' and other phrases like that. I had to be very precise and clear about having them disabled forever etc... Makes me wonder if there are legality issues that I'm not aware of..?

Engine/exhaust gas temps - Roo Systems has assured me that both engine temperatures and EGTs will DECREASE, rather than increase. He did throw a few numbers around on the phone but I didn't take a lot of notice since I'm not currently (nor do I have the means to) monitoring these values and therefore comparing numbers is of no use to me. Aside from that all I have is there word that the remap remains 30% inside manufacturers safety limits for the engine and that the product comes with a 5 year unlimited km warranty on damage as a result of the remap (which I'd think would be hard to prove). Despite this, I've heard a lot of good things about this custom tune and am still pretty keen to see the results. According to Roo Systems and also my mechanic (who is familiar with the tune), there is no need to upgrade intercooler etc...

Well the tune will be done by tomorrow afternoon so I'll soon be posting my reactions and any dyno print outs that I get.

[DiscoJeffster]

I think what you'll find about the EGR is they don't say disable as it's in the code of the ECU and can't be removed. It's sounds like a map or parameter based system though so adjusting it so that it never meets the parameters to 'open' is effectively the same thing.

[DiscoMick]

Their reluctance to disable the EGR might be because the vehicle has an EGR to meet exhaust standards for harmful emissions, and has to meet those standards to be legally registered, so disabling the EGR may mean it is technically illegal, just like certain VWs. This is one of those inconvenient truths that some people prefer to ignore. Meanwhile, about 2000 Australians die every year from vehicle-related emissions, which is more than the national road toll, about which we hear so much fuss being made.

[bjasch94]

Well, dropped the car off this morning and am expecting some good results.

[KiwiD4]

Good luck!

[bjasch94]

SOOOO!

Car is finished, all tuned up with the "Touring and Towing" flash tune from Roo Systems.

I'll be brutally honest for the sake of an unbiased review.

The first 5 minutes of driving I noticed very little difference in the drive of the car. Upon putting the foot down hard, she pulls well (but as we know, they always pulled well). So I was initially a little deflated.

Driving for 5-20minutes: I noticed a lot more. There is more power there, although its not obvious - definitely more subtle. The thing I noticed more than the extra power is the smoothness of the power delivery and that the power is available in more of the rev range. I can't be much more specific than that I guess.

I've only had a 20 minute drive so far and didn't get above 70km/h for very long. I also haven't tried any of the low range gears yet.

Roo Systems does have a 30 day money-back system, however I'll have to have a better drive to see whether or not I'm happy with it.

All told, the dyno showed a 17% increase. Again, this is less than I thought however I guess they're keeping the engine 'safe' by not pushing her too much. Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet (http://imgur.com/a/CPUL3)

My thoughts are that this is a good product that is safe for the car and provides a subtle increase in power and modifies power delivery for a more responsive and smoother drive throughout the rev range.

I'd be interested to hear if any one else has gotten this product on a 3.0L D4 and what their experience has been.

[1nando]

The best way to tell is drive a road that you used to use 4th gear and see if it will easily coast in 5th....

[1nando]

The best way to tell is drive a road that you used to use 4th gear and see if it will easily coast and drive in 5th....in saying all that i felt my alive tune as soon as i drove it

[Milton477]

Do you have before & after Dyno graphs?

[PeterJ]

Thanks for sharing all this Brad, so when you say 17%, is that power, torque or both. Because working from a 183Kw/600 N.M base line that's 214/702, which is right on par with RRS output, and yes unlikely that there will be some hugely noticeable difference in the normal drive routine because you would still be using the same right foot input to take off from the lights, drive familiar roads etc. The question to be considered is the shape of the power/torque curves before and after as well as the actual maximum values. If they have been able to achieve a wider flatter torque curve as well as a 17% increase then happy days, and you may interpret this as a general improvement in drive-ability. Live with it for a while and see.:thumbsup:

Peter

[bjasch94]

128047

I'm having a bit of trouble sharing this photo of the dyno curve.. green is where it started and red is where they tweaked it to.

The Nm measurement is a lot lower then actual engine specs, I'm assuming that this is because it was a measurement at the wheels...?

I've seen a few dyno graphs now and I haven't seen one yet that has a significant change in the shape of the curve so to speak...as you can see it looks pretty similar, just higher. That being said, the power delivery is a lot smoother and kicks in a lot earlier.

[DiscoMick]

Sounds broadly similar to the effects of a Steinbauer chip.

[DiscoJeffster]

The linearity of it looks like an increase in target boost level across the entire range. Did they map boost before and after in any graphs?

[cruiseh]

So no more discussion. Sounds like you are disappointed??

Id hardly call it a tune if all they did was wind the boost up. the trace is all over the place, youd think the hole betwwen primary and secondary turbos could be fixed? we used to call it "valley of death" on subaru TT engines. do they change injector pump pressures? i find it odd that you wouldnt see a difference form the EGRs being closed through software, the roo guy i spoke to said they tweak it to essentially remain closed most of the time.

what other options are out there ??

[AndrewM]

128047



Not so sure about this dyno chart - why would you map power (in HP and not kW??) and torque (Nm) against road speed (kph) and not against engine speed in rpm? Power and torque are dependent on engine speed, not how fast you are traveling. For example, the rpm at which peak power and torque are achieved is always quoted, not speed. If you want some idea of the relationship with road speed you'd have to at least discuss gears and gearbox settings (eg D or S), but it would still be pretty meaningless.

[Garfield]

Hi Guys, just picked up my TDV6 from having a Roo Systems remap. As soon as I drove the vehicle ( around the city ) I noticed the difference. The initial lag off the mark has virtually gone, low down acceleration is noticeably better and the engine seems to rev more freely.

Attached is the Dyno graph indicating a peak increase of 43% in Kw ( 117 to 167kw ) and 32% peak increase in torque NM ( 400 to 530MN ).

Obviously I'll need to drive the vehicle a while to find the true value of the remap - especially up a forest track / fire trail, where I was looking for more torque.

129007

[cruiseh]

Hi Guys, just picked up my TDV6 from having a Roo Systems remap. As soon as I drove the vehicle ( around the city ) I noticed the difference. The initial lag off the mark has virtually gone, low down acceleration is noticeably better and the engine seems to rev more freely.

Attached is the Dyno graph indicating a peak increase of 43% in Kw ( 117 to 167kw ) and 32% peak increase in torque NM ( 400 to 530MN ).

Obviously I'll need to drive the vehicle a while to find the true value of the remap - especially up a forest track / fire trail, where I was looking for more torque.

Hi garfield..

ive noticed that they changed ramp rates between runs. this is very odd, i cant think why as it changes the results. All the dynos ive seen for turbo petrol engines they tend to use shootout mode to set the ramp rate . I wonder why they change it?

i stole this from another site


Dyno Ramp Rates Explained!We get alot of queries from various customers that have had their vehicles run on dyno's from all over the place.
The biggest question is WHY do they all make different power figures and why is the shape of the graph so different?
The biggest differences between dynos is the speed at which the vehicle is allowed to accelerate.
It is shown on most dynos as a value like 070 or 70 for example.
What this calculates to is Kilometers per hour, per second.
So a ramp rate of 070 on a dyno dynamics dyno allows the wheels to accelerate at 7kph per second in a linear rate from start to finish.
The pictures shown are only a low hp TD42 to give some sort of idea of what is going on. As the power levels go up, the differences in top end power can become high with fast ramp rates.
This is generally a factor of heat soak, intercooler efficiency and engine temperature.
As you can see a ramp speed of 030 or only 3KPH per second shows more power and torque through the whole rpm range on this vehicle.
The engine is accelerating roughly at the rate it would on the street if you were to pull away from 1000rpm in 4th gear. Very slowly.
This gives the engine as much time as possible to build boost and generate power at each rpm point.
If we tried this for example on an engine making in excess of 500hp, there would not be enough traction on the rollers to hold it back without a massive amount of strapping to hold the vehicle against the rollers.
The total time taken to run through a graph at 030 ramp rate is roughly 30 seconds on a Patrol.
If we step that speed up to 070 the total time taken is about 15 seconds.
Step is right up to 200 or 20kph per second and the run is over in a little over 5 seconds.
Which of these sounds similar to what your own car could do accelerating from 1000rpm to 4000rpm in 4th gear on the road?
There is no right and wrong way to test vehicles on the dyno. Each car is different and those differences need to be taken into account. Big HP engines need a lot of ramp speed, both to help maintain traction and to simulate what it will be doing on the road.
Lower HP stuff needs to be held back to stop it from acting like small HP engine free spinning the wheels.
On average a diesel engine will show realistic results around the 5-8KPH per second ramp rate.

[DiscoJeffster]

As Cruiseh implies, that's not cool. You would never change ramp rate within a tuning session. An increase in ramp rate will pump up the figures so to use a higher ramp rate for the final run is disappointing. This is one of the many ways one can play with the figures to show increased output. Another is to tie down the vehicle harder for the first run than the last run. I lost 50hp by someone over tightening the straps on one tuning session. Had me perplexed for a while.

It's disappointing as I'm sure the improvements are there, there's just no need to show inflated figures, or to bring the results into question like this. Admittedly it can also be fudged by playing atmospheric temp, ambient temp, etc.

Anyhow, I'd dwell less on what the chart shows and use the seat of the bum to tell you the improvements.

[Garfield]

As Cruiseh implies, that's not cool. You would never change ramp rate within a tuning session. An increase in ramp rate will pump up the figures so to use a higher ramp rate for the final run is disappointing. This is one of the many ways one can play with the figures to show increased output. Another is to tie down the vehicle harder for the first run than the last run. I lost 50hp by someone over tightening the straps on one tuning session. Had me perplexed for a while.

It's disappointing as I'm sure the improvements are there, there's just no need to show inflated figures, or to bring the results into question like this. Admittedly it can also be fudged by playing atmospheric temp, ambient temp, etc.

Anyhow, I'd dwell less on what the chart shows and use the seat of the bum to tell you the improvements.

After driving the vehicle for a couple days after the remap, all I can say is it feels like it has a different engine in it ( seat of the pants measurement ). Not only does it have more torque down low, but it feels even better than being in sport mode on a standard TDV6 when in normal mode on mine. Also the engine revs more "freely".

Was it worth the $1,525 for added engine improvement for "me" - definitely yes. Only mistake I made was mulling over it for more than 12 months before I went ahead and got the remap.

[DiscoJeffster]

Awesome. Yes power/torque down low is the best outcome as that's where you spend most of your time. I wouldn't care if peak power didn't change but got 50% more torque between 1500-3500rpm.

[Garfield]

Awesome. Yes power/torque down low is the best outcome as that's where you spend most of your time. I wouldn't care if peak power didn't change but got 50% more torque between 1500-3500rpm.

DiscoJeffster, I was pleasantly surprised at the difference it made, and obviously I was quite sceptical waiting 12 months ( where I did a lot of research and spoke to different people and diesel tuners ). I admit I have overloaded my TDV6 with too many accessories ( bull bar, rock sliders, winch etc ) bring its in unladen weight ( but includes me and a full tank of diesel ) to 3,060kg. Thus the reason I was really seeking some more torque - just to help offset the extra weight - especially when 4WDing. I'm a very quiet boring driver on the road, so I'm hoping the real benefit will be off road.

[BeeJ]

Thank you for the feedback Brad & Garfield.

IMO Roo systems is way to expensive for what it is and 17% increase is very low. I'd get your money back and go to a different tuner, or if that level of gains is acceptable run a plug and play chip for a 3rd of the price

[cruiseh]

After driving the vehicle for a couple days after the remap, all I can say is it feels like it has a different engine in it ( seat of the pants measurement ). Not only does it have more torque down low, but it feels even better than being in sport mode on a standard TDV6 when in normal mode on mine. Also the engine revs more "freely".

Was it worth the $1,525 for added engine improvement for "me" - definitely yes. Only mistake I made was mulling over it for more than 12 months before I went ahead and got the remap.

thatsthe sort of thing we'd like for ours, especially to eliminate the throttle lag when leaving the lights.. irritates the hell out of my wife. Cheers :)