Series II engine strip down

[incisor]

Had a motor sitting round for a few years that I hope I can rebuild and fit to Madge

Is 151903855

Got it sitting on an engine stand today and hopefully will get time to clean it up a bit during the week so I can pull it down and see if it's worth rebuilding...

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/08/558.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/08/559.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/08/560.jpg

[Chops]

Will be watching with interest Dave, love watching them come apart and come back together again.
What year was the motor made (?), looks by my untrained eye to be an early number, with no suffex number on it.

[incisor]

Should be a 59. It has the early head etc etc

First bit of fun is removing all the plugs and bits and pieces..

Top front plug was made from epoxy and a brass tap washer spindle 😀



https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/08/582.jpg

With a hunk of rubber on it..

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/08/583.jpg

[emoji2]

[Chops]

Cool,, nice and early. With that in mind, how will you go getting parts for it, everything still available as such? I know theres a problem for some trying to get parts, like pistons etc for the 6 cyls.

So, that "tapwasher", I'm guessing thats not normal,, or is it?

[Cap]

Sweet, will be watching closely also :)

[incisor]

Cool,, nice and early. With that in mind, how will you go getting parts for it, everything still available as such? I know theres a problem for some trying to get parts, like pistons etc for the 6 cyls.

So, that "tapwasher", I'm guessing thats not normal,, or is it?

time will tell the tale with the parts.. apparently repco can be pretty handy ...

as for the plug, it was a fine example of a bush mechanic keeping something going i would say [bigwhistle]

[mox]

Seems fourth digit of engine number which is 9 indicates it was '59 build. Looks to me that it needs pulling down to check and measure inside. Including noting whether or not cylinders have been bored oversize and /or crankshaft ground undersize. Reckon for parts, Repco probably should be good for common older motors in Australia eg if you were doing up a Holden fitted to a Series LR. For a Rover motor, best stick to specialists including vendors on this forum or UK LR parts suppliers who should be much more familiar with them.

Need to check about aluminium plugs is head and block. If yours are all stuffed and need replacing anyway, could soak everything in molasses solution to get rust off - including shifting it out of water galleries. Note molasses eats aluminium and also zinc /galvanising. Beware if wanting to preserve these.

Welch plugs in your block look too shiny and protrude out a bit so are probably replacements. They seem an odd size, ie 1.952 inch diameter I think. Probably unavailable in brass. Note plug in back of block is 1.5 inch steel disc plug. Not a Welch plug. Steel plugs nowadays should be no problem provided non corrosive water and proper coolant is used. If you need a thermostat, looks like head on your motor is original type which needs skirted thermostat. I presently have one bought as spare before discovering motor on '61 Australian assembled LWB I acquired from estate of relative who owned it for about 50 years had a new head fitted in 1975. They use a common standard type thermostat.

Have noted from a couple of sources that these early four cylinder petrol motors based on the first Rover diesel have slightly smaller big end bearings than later ones which still have three main bearings. Gather change to 5 mains was made in Series 3's. Anyway, need to remove and panel beat sump of mine sometime so can check bearings. It and cross member have at some stage had a strong altercation with a stump or rock.

Currently have head off motor as head gasket blew between 1 and 2. Was thinking of installing stellite exhaust valve seats but tractor mechanic mate who removed valves reckon would also need new valves and guides if doing so. So am just getting this later head skimmed to 8:1 compression ratio if checking confirms it is 7:1. Other improvement is valve guide O rings. Used LR part ones I bought to get sizes for ones made of Viton. These are more heat resistant than originals and apparently go for a lot longer before eventually falling apart or whatever. Tidied up but not fully reconditioned head should outlast bottom end in block, which I think is original and done 161,000 miles.

[incisor]

Ta

I use brass plugs I machined up to replace the alloy plugs except for where the block heater goes as it is easy to replace

I was told about repco by someone that just did one up..

I have NOS heads and water pump to suit

Will be a slow rebuild ......

Cheers

[AJF]

Dave

I have had someone in Northmead (Sydney) rebuilding my series 2 engine. (Rebuilding an engine is way beyond my skill level). Key issues I had in gettng parts are:

- water pump - my engine had the 8 hole water pump rather than the 9 hole pump used on series 2a. This was very hard to find and expensive. We rebuilt the pump. My suggestion is if you have the 8 hole type (and even a spare) keep it - if you want to get rid of it I would pay $200 for it in any condition.

- crankshaft bearings - my engine was the 3 bearing type and the bearing were smaller than the later model 3 bearing engine. (Later again a 5 bearing engine was introduced). Only place I could find the smaller 3 bearings was UK website Craddocks.

Apparently my engine is nearly done and I will post some photo's when I get it back (My thread is Series 2 restoration in the Hunter Valley).

Cheers
Angus.

[JDNSW]

...... Reckon for parts, Repco probably should be good for common older motors in Australia eg if you were doing up a Holden fitted to a Series LR. For a Rover motor, best stick to specialists including vendors on this forum or UK LR parts suppliers who should be much more familiar with them.

...........
Have noted from a couple of sources that these early four cylinder petrol motors based on the first Rover diesel have slightly smaller big end bearings than later ones which still have three main bearings. Gather change to 5 mains was made in Series 3's. .........

Landrover engines were quite common in the 1950-65 period in Australia, and Repco stocked a lot of parts. They probably still have significant amounts of this stock, unlike later competitors such as Supercheap or Autobahn. Also worth talking to any local independent suppliers or garages that have been around for a long time, especially any who used to be Landrover dealers.

The four cylinder petrol engines had the smaller crankshaft journals of the 2.0 diesel but were increased in size from 2.126" to 2.132" at (about) the same time as the diesel went from 2.0 to 2.25, as the crankshaft had to be upgraded for the diesel. Five bearing engines appeared in the very late Series 3, nominally in 1981, but Australian built vehicles seem to have retained the three bearing engine until later, and may in fact not have appeared here except for fully imported vehicles such as station wagons.

[incisor]

i have two or three early water pumps laying around as well as a NOS stock one i intend to use on this engine

am happy to sell you the best of them if you are interested.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/08/712.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/08/713.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/08/714.jpg


cheers


Dave

I have had someone in Northmead (Sydney) rebuilding my series 2 engine. (Rebuilding an engine is way beyond my skill level). Key issues I had in gettng parts are:

- water pump - my engine had the 8 hole water pump rather than the 9 hole pump used on series 2a. This was very hard to find and expensive. We rebuilt the pump. My suggestion is if you have the 8 hole type (and even a spare) keep it - if you want to get rid of it I would pay $200 for it in any condition.

- crankshaft bearings - my engine was the 3 bearing type and the bearing were smaller than the later model 3 bearing engine. (Later again a 5 bearing engine was introduced). Only place I could find the smaller 3 bearings was UK website Craddocks.

Apparently my engine is nearly done and I will post some photo's when I get it back (My thread is Series 2 restoration in the Hunter Valley).

Cheers
Angus.

[mox]

Comparing water pump on my 1961 engine block with incisor's photos above: Obviously not original, having thick dark green paint on it. Does not have numbers on casting or the slotted hole on opposite side, which I presume is where generator belt tightener bolt would go. On mine, same uses next bolt hole anticlockwise.

Maybe someone should comment here as to what else needs to be changed so later water pump could be used on an early motor if original type is unavailable. Maybe the whole timing case, which also incorporates water pump housing. Or can the existing case can be modified to allow later pump to fit properly.

[incisor]

you can't use a later water pump, they sit in a different place and at a different hight with different bolt holes.

i am lead to believe you can use a the later rebuild kit in the older housing.

that pump came off the motor in the picture so i know it fits :p

[incisor]

NOS pump
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/08/715.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/08/716.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/08/717.jpg

Cheers

[Chops]

Excuse my ignorance, but what does NOS mean/stand for?

[incisor]

New Old Stock

[Tins]

New Old Stock

Speaking of NOS, the Army must have had crates and crates of bits for these. Probably sitting in a warehouse somewhere. Love to find it. Of course, they might have dumped it all as well.

[pop058]

Excuse my ignorance, but what does NOS mean/stand for?


New Old Stock

In other words, brand new stuff that us old bastards have been collecting and hoarding for years thinking, one day that will come in handy ( despite what your wife says ). [biggrin]

[Chops]

Haha,, yessss, the wife [bigwhistle]

[Chops]

JT, when I lived in Albury, we had a wrecker who used to buy direct from the army,,, he had loads of stuff in boxes 📦,,, but alas, he has gone now, although he's still around and still a bit involved I think.

[incisor]

well half an hour presented itself this afternoon so i managed to get the head off and get a bit of a look at was left of the bores etc etc

head gasket was composite and intact with no traces of cylinder leakage...

only got to clean up the top of one bore in the time i had

it's had a hard life it would seem.... but certainly not the worst i have seen it has to be said....

pics to follow....https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/08/722.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/08/723.jpg

full of years of squirts of oil and other crud thats made its way into the pots..

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/08/724.jpg

a pic showing the water pump location on the block. it is about 1.5" lower than the later blocks from memory...

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/08/725.jpg

a couple of lips that aint for kissing.....

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/08/726.jpg

A 3 stamped on the piston. it is pot 3, so i imagine the A is for the fitting tolerance. no oversize stamping but i have to go looky see how they are normally marked as i dont positively recall what it is.

yep A stands for .0002" to .0004" above nominal size...

and the bore measures up as standard 3.562" using my old verniers.

[1950landy]

Dave , that looks like some one has been using it for a boat anchor .[biggrin] I had one given to me once , after pulling the head off & filled up the bores with Diesel foe 4 weeks & couldn't shift the pistons I stuck it in a 50ton press & pistons still would not move. [bigsad] You can guess were that motor ended up. I think it is now a Toyota L/C.[smilebigeye][smilebigeye][smilebigeye]

[incisor]

Dave , that looks like some one has been using it for a boat anchor .[biggrin] I had one given to me once , after pulling the head off & filled up the bores with Diesel foe 4 weeks & couldn't shift the pistons I stuck it in a 50ton press & pistons still would not move. [bigsad] You can guess were that motor ended up. I think it is now a Toyota L/C.[smilebigeye][smilebigeye][smilebigeye]

[biggrin]

yeah thats what i thought when i first lifted the head...

but the top of number 3 cleaned up not too bad in a very short time so i am living in hope...

i use a 70 /30 mix of autotrans fluid and acetone for really hard to move stuff if diesel don't work, never needed a press touch wood [bigwhistle]

[mox]

Have seen somewhere on aulro a way of removing stuck aluminium pistons from cast iron bores. Pity 1950landy apparently did not know about and try it . ie Molasses. From my experience of using solution of it to turn rust on steel and cast iron into black gunk that can be scrubbed off have noted that it also " eats" galvanising (zinc) and aluminium. So obviously dissolves aluminium pistons. Will take time and probably some stirring up /strengthening /replacing of sickly smelly molasses solution but apparently you can finish up having bores with just the cast iron piston rings left in them if adequate solution and left long enough. Probably formerly seized in pistons can be knocked out well before completely dissolving though. Get the rust off the block - including out of water jackets at same time.

For a start, you need a suitable container that will hold engine block or whatever you want to clean. Then appropriate molasses supply. Here in Northern Vic readily available in 25 kg buckets from stockfeed suppliers. Think current price under $40. Should be cheaper nearer sugar mills in Qld. Diluting it, I find best to mix properly with about equal quantity hot water before diluting further. Re final dilution. are wide appropriate ranges. Depends on how much rust and other dissolvable material. eg 1 in 6 to 1 in 30 molasses to water. Unless fairly cold, after a couple of days solution with rusty steel in it will start bubbling - showing it is working. Often creating froth which dries on top. If bubbling stops while rust still present, try adding more molasses. Every few days, to hasten process, remove items from solution, rinse with water then scrub away black gunk that comes off easily. Then put it back in solution when just clean surface and brown rust left. Some items may have hard caked dirt, grease or paint that become more apparent as rust is dissolved that also need removing by other appropriate means. These can act as barriers to molasses attacking rust underneath.

Is good idea to wear rubber gloves when cleaning stuff that has been in molasses solution. It tends to stain and dry out skin on hands and leave stink on them that takes more than one wash to get rid of. Note this sickly smell is not so apparent after you have been around it for a while but remember that others certainly notice and usually don't like it. The older solution gets, the more smelly it becomes. so needs periodic replacement. Then need to consider where you tip it. eg Not on ground near house back door!

Reminders re containers: Of course an aluminium one would be useless unless an impervious liner used. A galvanised steel one will quickly lose its galvanising. Re black steel, surface rust is cleaned off but have had it happen when using rusty 200 litre drum that molasses ate through rust pit and created a hole. To clean large clumsy objects could even use the likes of an old boat lined with heavy plastic sheet. Bloke who originally drew my attention to molasses use. a restorer of old cars reckons he knew a restorer of old engines who sometimes lowered them complete into a circular plunge sheep dip using jib on tractor linkage. Maybe bought 200 litre drums of molasses for this.

Most likely this post will prompt further comments from those who have used molasses as a rust and possibly aluminium remover and possibly questions from others who would like to know more.

[1950landy]

I have a 200 lit plastic drum with a molasses mixture in it , the mixture is about 6 years old & needs renewing . Got a price to pump it out the other week . It is cpeaper to get rid of oil. I know it is supose to be good for the garden but my wife would not be happy about the smell.:bangin:

[Cap]

impressive how you cleaned up that bore Inc. How did you do that, and how did you control the gunk from falling into the gaps and gumming up the rings more (I assume youll be pulling them out anyway?)

[mox]

I have a 200 lit plastic drum with a molasses mixture in it , the mixture is about 6 years old & needs renewing . Got a price to pump it out the other week . It is cpeaper to get rid of oil. I know it is supose to be good for the garden but my wife would not be happy about the smell.:bangin:

Reckon in a suburban situation where with nowhere to tip used molasses solution on ground where it would not be objectionable for a few days at least, should be no problem pouring it down toilet. Maybe in small amounts spread over time. Is basically water soluble organic material with iron in it. Unlike oil. Used oil from vehicles is likely to cause major problems in both septic and sewerage disposal systems.

[pop058]

Our local waste facility takes up to 20 Lt drums of old oil and such for nix. The 20 Lt limit is purely for handling limitations.

[incisor]

impressive how you cleaned up that bore Inc. How did you do that, and how did you control the gunk from falling into the gaps and gumming up the rings more (I assume youll be pulling them out anyway?)

just my mixture of trans fluid and acetone, a few rags, some disposable wipes and a couple of scrapers i keep in my toolbox. then some 80 grit wet and dry

i will clean it up some more, soak then blow out with compressed air before i turn it upside down and let some juice soak through from the bottom.

if all else fails it will be molasses to the rescue...

[incisor]

Most likely this post will prompt further comments from those who have used molasses as a rust and possibly aluminium remover and possibly questions from others who would like to know more.

i discovered you can really speed the process up putting 19v @ 3.5 amps through the molasses mixture using the old anode / cathode routine...

i just used an old laptop power supply..

worked a treat on a heap of bits i needed done in a hurry a few years ago.....[bigwhistle]

[Tins]

JT, when I lived in Albury, we had a wrecker who used to buy direct from the army,,, he had loads of stuff in boxes 📦,,, but alas, he has gone now, although he's still around and still a bit involved I think.

There would have been a fair bit of stuff coming out of Bandiana. There would have been a heck of a lot more at Moorebank in Sydney.

[Tins]

There would have been a fair bit of stuff coming out of Bandiana.

Actually, legend had it that there were brand new, crated WWII Harley Davidsons and BSAs buried under the parade ground at Bandiana. Hmm, who has a good metal detector and an excavator?

[Tins]

i discovered you can really speed the process up putting 19v @ 3.5 amps through the molasses mixture using the old anode / cathode routine...

i just used an old laptop power supply..

worked a treat on a heap of bits i needed done in a hurry a few years ago.....[bigwhistle]

Really?? That's a nice piece of info.. Coupla car batteries should work then.

[incisor]

Really?? That's a nice piece of info.. Coupla car batteries should work then.

too much power makes the molasses turn to foam.....

and that can be unpleasant.

[incisor]

This afternoons effort

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/08/773.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/08/774.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/08/775.jpg

[JDNSW]

Did all the cam followers fall out when you tipped it upside down?

[incisor]

No

[Chops]

Did all the cam followers fall out when you tipped it upside down?


Should they have, if not, does that mean they'll be rusted in or something, or could it be something more sinister?

[mox]

Our local waste facility takes up to 20 Lt drums of old oil and such for nix. The 20 Lt limit is purely for handling limitations.
Old oil has some value for recycling to contribute to cost of handling it.
Haven't taken notice to see if oil re refiners are still in business in Australia. Long ago I used to buy their product for some lubrication purposes. Was cheaper than new oil equivalent. Probably cost of buying the likes of used sump oil, cleaning it and adding appropriate additives was cheaper than starting with base oil from refinery. I presume much less re refining of used sump oil would be necessary for it to be used as furnace fuel. Remember around 20 years ago, West Coast Railway company was running R Class steam locomotives they had fitted with oil burners on weekend Melbourne -Warrnambool trains. Apparently effective cost of large amount of used sump oil for them was 8 cents per litre.

[JDNSW]

Should they have, if not, does that mean they'll be rusted in or something, or could it be something more sinister?

No, I should have checked the book before making the last post - I was thinking that the locating bolt only secured the guide, but it also retains the 'slide', the top part of the follower, which comprises a steel roller and a bronze slider that is lifted by the roller and has a socket for the pushrod on top. The slide, being non-ferrous is probably free to lift out once the bolt has been removed, but judging from the rust seen so far, the rollers may be stuck and the guides are very likely to be.

John

[Cap]

So, is the general thought is that ideally one removes the cam followers, rollers etc before turning upside down?

[mick88]

I rebuilt a two and quarter engine from a 1971 vehicle about two years ago and never had any trouble getting the parts.
I just ordered them through a Engine Rebuilder Shop in town, items such as cam bearings, cam chain, main and big end
bearings, rings, gasket set, and one valve, etc. From memory some of the parts were made in Israel (bearings and cam
chain). I think the rings were Hastings, which are from the US. I also took the block in and got them to put it through their
"bath" to clean it up and get any crud out of the water jackets.

If I were doing it again, on reassembly I wouldn't bother with wiring up the cam follower locating bolts, but rather just use
a "service removable" Loctite like 242 to ensure that they don't come loose.



Cheers, Mick.

[JDNSW]

I think the issue may be with the parts that are special to early Series 2 engines. Certainly, most parts for the later engines are readily available - the major repair parts did not change from about 1962 to 1981, or where they changed, the later part can be used. But there are definitely issues with things like the early water pumps, possibly the smaller crankshaft bearings, and such like. The situation is a lot worse for the 2.0 diesel - there were far fewer of them made only over the period 1956 to 1961, and most of them were replaced by 2.25 engines when they needed overhauling, so the demand for parts has never been high enough for alternative sources to appear.

[chazza]

... The situation is a lot worse for the 2.0 diesel - there were far fewer of them made only over the period 1956 to 1961, and most of them were replaced by 2.25 engines when they needed overhauling, so the demand for parts has never been high enough for alternative sources to appear.

We have had this debate on here before and a perusal of various parts books showed that a vast number of 2 litre diesel parts are still available, or later parts such as a cylinder head, can be substituted.

Anyone with a 2 litre engine should not despair,

Cheers Charlie

[harry]

that's an interesting project.
yep, Repco first call for engine parts, new, not old stock, ACL brand mostly, then wherever. and no, nothing will fall out when you tip the block upside down.
I had no trouble getting bearings. gaskets, shock absorbers,
Repco
Replacement Engine Parts Company.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

I cant get over how TALL the damn thing is,,,
no wonder the sump has been lowered,,[tonguewink]

[pop058]

that's an interesting project.
yep, Repco first call for engine parts, new, not old stock, ACL brand mostly, then wherever. and no, nothing will fall out when you tip the block upside down.
I had no trouble getting bearings. gaskets, shock absorbers,
Repco
Replacement Engine Parts Company.

That's one interpretation of "Repco". I have heard others.[bigwhistle]

[harry]

Actually just Replacement Parts Company

[JDNSW]

Actually just Replacement Parts Company

That's what I thought!

[Cap]

or Rip Every Poor Customer Off...

Any more pics Inc?

[incisor]

Busy in other areas at the moment.....

[101RRS]

Repco would be the absolute last place I would be getting parts from - might as well as get them from Supercrap.

Repco - poor service, expensive, rarely have what you want and if you order parts they should have in stock you get charged a delivery fee as well.

You can do better.

Garry

[whitehillbilly64]

We must be very lucky with our Repco in Murwillumbah, Garry.
Quite the opposite.

whitehillbilly

[ezyrama]

time will tell the tale with the parts.. apparently repco can be pretty handy ...

as for the plug, it was a fine example of a bush mechanic keeping something going i would say [bigwhistle]

Try All Fours 4x4 at Kotara outside Newcastle. His online shop seems to have a lot of old series parts for rebuilds

http://www.allfourx4.com.au/epages/shop.sf/en_AU/?ObjectPath=/Shops/allfourx4/Categories/New_Parts/Landrover/Series_1_2A__3/Engine

[ezyrama]

We must be very lucky with our Repco in Murwillumbah, Garry.
Quite the opposite.

whitehillbilly

Watching this with much anticipation as I am about to embark on a 2-1/4 rebuild myself. I find the Repco stores a bit hit and miss here on the Goldie, but with M/Bah, I think if it is owned by a local in a smaller town, there is a lot more customer service than in larger cities. I find the one near my parents place in Sydney live up to their Rip Every Poor Customer Off reputation, whenever I get dragged into fixing a car down there. The one near me once tried to charge me $48 for a uni joint for my 2a, Said he had 8 of them as NOS, but ended up paying $28 each after a bit of "Your kidding aren't you, a uni joint is not $48". He then tried to sell me all 8 as he didn't want them.
Cheers Ian

[whitehillbilly64]

Hi Ian.
Yes, classic, cousin of a friends brother, small town, who you know.
Believe you know Macca, from Chillingham. Wedding best man or something.
Macca was our outdoor education centre, Chef for a bit, and your name, I think, came up, regard LR world.

whitehillbilly

[ezyrama]

Hi Ian.
Yes, classic, cousin of a friends brother, small town, who you know.
Believe you know Macca, from Chillingham. Wedding best man or something.
Macca was our outdoor education centre, Chef for a bit, and your name, I think, came up, regard LR world.

whitehillbilly

Hi whitehillbilly

I know Macca well, I wasn't his best man but I was at the wedding.
Know the outdoor centre, helped them with some air cond requirements
a few yrs ago. M/Bah is a small place isnt it, as you say, everyone knows everyone.
I worked in Tweed for about 17 yrs and know the whole area very well. Beautiful
part of the world down there.
Regards Ian

[harry]

Repco Currumbin is excellent, it's not a lolly shop, and, I have also had good results with Murbah.

[incisor]

havent done much other than pour my mix down the bores of late

too busy with other things sadly...

[UncleHo]

Inc. now has access to a 200ltr plastic drum so he can cook his block in the "Brew" to get what he wants out of the block,which will also include the big-end and main bearing shells[bighmmm] and anything alloy.

cheers

[harry]

Actually, legend had it that there were brand new, crated WWII Harley Davidsons and BSAs buried under the parade ground at Bandiana. Hmm, who has a good metal detector and an excavator?
mate, that story was going around 50 years ago when I was a bit younger.