...or this

[Zeros]

Maybe this is why the next Defender is taking so long to be revealed? ....Bollinger B1: Bollinger Motors B1 revealed | 4X4 Australia (https://www.4x4australia.com.au/news/1707/bollinger-motors-b1-revealed)

[Homestar]

Oh Lordy, I think I'm going to be sick...

[loanrangie]

I like it, a bit like a Santana Landy. Not sure about the grill or lack there of, some mesh of some kind would add to the aesthetics .

[weeds]

Got potential....it's electric.

[rick130]

Got potential....it's electric.



Boom-tish! [biggrin]

[Homestar]

Got potential....it's electric.

No doubt, but it's close to the ugliest thing I've ever had the misfortune to lay my eyes on. What is seen cannot be unseen unfortunately.

And I personally don't think it looks anything like a Land Rover - the only similarities IMO are that it has 4 wheels and exposed door hinges. It should be put out of its misery... [tonguewink]

[Andy130]

wow....200 miles range.....a range just far enough to drive it one way and dump it.

[frantic]

It looks like a defender, and a bronco had to use Doctor Lego IVF to have a baby![bigrolf]

Or a life size version of a lego d90 that was trying to get approval.

Seriously, its a mall crawler, as to most people a utility, hose out interior, with a 1ton payload, 4x4 ,is a long trip expedition vehicle, and with a max range of 320km this is not........

[Homestar]

Yes, range is still the biggest obstacle to the electric vehicle, particularly here in Australia. While a daily driver that does 30 or 40KM each way each day is fine, I'm not sure how you can make an electric 4x4 work as you generally need to drive a fair way to start and 4 wheeling, then if you're going out for the weekend, then what?

Sort of a self defeating idea IMO.

[Zeros]

Yes range is an issue, with Elon Musk's plans for an electric truck requiring a 22 ton battery for a range of 900 miles. But solar electric cars are coming...
Lightyear One solar electric car charges itself and will have a 500-mile range : TreeHugger (https://www.treehugger.com/cars/lightyear-solar-electric-car-claims-500-mile-range-charge.html)

[bee utey]

Yes, range is still the biggest obstacle to the electric vehicle, particularly here in Australia. While a daily driver that does 30 or 40KM each way each day is fine, I'm not sure how you can make an electric 4x4 work as you generally need to drive a fair way to start and 4 wheeling, then if you're going out for the weekend, then what?

Sort of a self defeating idea IMO.

Seeing that for over a decade there were lots of short range petrol/LPG Discos and RRC's that headed off for some weekend fun, I can't see that a relatively short electric range will stop too many sales. To displace the current crop of long range diesel bush pigs will take some ingenuity and probably require range extender engines. Even now I can imagine someone getting a pure electric 4WD and strapping an EU20i into one of the jerry can holders. It's a challenge for the next generation, not a hindrance for some crusty old buggers in diesel powered sheds.

[Homestar]

Love to camp next to someone who has to run their genset all night to charge their vehicle...

Hardly very green - why not just have a petrol or diesel powered vehicle to start with.

I'm sure the sales of this diabolically ugly thing will be in the millions.... ;)

[Zeros]

He he, yes, us crusty old diesel addicts will have some ground to make up in the near future... electrickery isn't going anywhere. Infact it's almost on par with mechanicals already.

[weeds]

Agree electric is not good for aus application but sadly we don't have enough sales to influence a decent range in a diesel Land Rover.

[TB]

If we could solve the challenges around electrical energy storage and delivery, I have no doubt that four wheels driven by four independent electric motors would be the absolutely best thing for off-road use. But even though I'm a clean energy advocate and I'm convinced that global warming is a very frickin real and present danger, the criticisms in this thread so far are not at all wrong.

I reckon electric vehicles will become the standard in cities where trips are short and infrastructure is dense. The biggest reason isn't global warming, it's to do with clean air and the advantages of automation.

Until we get some kind of break-through electric storage tech, extra-urban transport is going to be largely powered by liquid fuels which we either burn the same way we do today or perhaps catalyse directly into electricity in a future fuel cell. These vehicles will continue to emit gases.

Whether it's electric vehicles in cities or internal combustion engines in the bush, the real "green" issue is where the energy itself comes from. Fossil fuels are *the* problem, but wind and solar aren't even close to being *the* solution. I want to see modern (fuel efficient, clean, safe, reliable, low cost) nuclear replace the bulk of the world's energy supply, with wind/solar/hydro etc contributing in every place it makes sense for them to do so. Obviously nuclear heat can drive steam turbines to produce electricity. That heat also can be used to synthesise liquid fuels from renewable feedstock including from CO2 captured directly from the atmosphere.

I already own a baby Land Rover and I'm hoping to upgrade to a big one later on for touring our amazing country. My city car is currently a diesel Golf... but I have my eye on a Tesla 3.

Homestar... I LOL'd to see your comment about the ugliness of the electric truck coming from somebody with a pic of an FC in their sig. I'm presuming a dry sense of irony on display [biggrin]

[Homestar]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder - I love my 101 but know many that think it's as ugly as a hat full of aresholes. I find this monstrosity being discussed here makes my eyes bleed but happy for those that see beauty in it. :)

I'm pro electric vehicles, but like you I think that with current technologies they are limited to the urban environment.

Who knows where battery storage will be in 10 years though. :)

[bee utey]

Love to camp next to someone who has to run their genset all night to charge their vehicle...

Hardly very green - why not just have a petrol or diesel powered vehicle to start with.

I'm sure the sales of this diabolically ugly thing will be in the millions.... ;)

But they could run the genny while they're driving, or for a few hours before bed time. No good reason for believing an electric vehicle owner to be as antisocial as the average Lowlux owning plonker ( who would run a loud genny all night just for the hell of it).

As for "hardly very green", what part of "range extender" are you having trouble with? You can still charge the main battery every time you get somewhere civilised.

As for sales, I suspect most would go to mining and industry who couldn't care less what they look like, then people will try to get their hands on used ones at disposal auctions and turn them into something more suited to their tastes.

[Mick_Marsh]

Homestar... I LOL'd to see your comment about the ugliness of the electric truck coming from somebody with a pic of an FC in their sig. I'm presuming a dry sense of irony on display [biggrin]
If we based the decision of what we drive solely on what is beautiful, we'd all be driving nothing but old Mercs and Veyrons.
I would hardly describe the 101 as beautiful, but, considering you will have to spend about $30k for a roadworthy example of a 40y.o. utility vehicle, I suspect there are many other aspects that make the 101 desirable.

As the Bolinger B1 has a rather short range for an off road tourer, I suspect many of these will be nothing more than Toorak Tractors which, compared to FFRRs, X5s, F-Paces and Cayennes, it is just butt ugly.

I'd rather have a Tesla to do my weekend shopping. As I have a far more beautiful luxury saloon to do my weekend shop (A '65 Mercedes 300SE), I don't expect a Tesla will make it's way into my stable.

[Mick_Marsh]

Who knows where battery storage will be in 10 years though. :)

I'm tipping not much more than now.

[Homestar]

But they could run the genny while they're driving, or for a few hours before bed time. No good reason for believing an electric vehicle owner to be as antisocial as the average Lowlux owning plonker ( who would run a loud genny all night just for the hell of it).

As for "hardly very green", what part of "range extender" are you having trouble with? You can still charge the main battery every time you get somewhere civilised.

As for sales, I suspect most would go to mining and industry who couldn't care less what they look like, then people will try to get their hands on used ones at disposal auctions and turn them into something more suited to their tastes.

I would have thought someone like yourself would have understood the requiments for charging a battery bank that is capable of moving a large electric vehicle several hundred KM. A couple of hours at a campsite with a 2KVA Honda sure won't cut it, but I suspect you knew that's already. ;)

[JDNSW]

I'm tipping not much more than now.

Past history would support that, but there seems to be more push into battery development than there has been historically. I keep hearing about all the advances in batteries, but in the 22 years I have been on stand alone solar, when it comes down to actually buying batteries, the answer is that in that time batteries have neither improved markedly nor got any cheaper. Of course, house batteries do not have the same requirements as vehicle ones do, and in particular the energy density available has improved markedly in the last ten years. But the other key figure for EV batteries of cost per kwh over the battery life has not budged significantly - if anything, it is higher.

So I'm inclined to agree, but would not be all that surprised if there were real improvements in the next few years.

[Mick_Marsh]

Past history would support that, but there seems to be more push into battery development than there has been historically. I keep hearing about all the advances in batteries, but in the 22 years I have been on stand alone solar, when it comes down to actually buying batteries, the answer is that in that time batteries have neither improved markedly nor got any cheaper. Of course, house batteries do not have the same requirements as vehicle ones do, and in particular the energy density available has improved markedly in the last ten years. But the other key figure for EV batteries of cost per kwh over the battery life has not budged significantly - if anything, it is higher.

So I'm inclined to agree, but would not be all that surprised if there were real improvements in the next few years.
I was reading a paper on batteries a few weeks ago. It was noting the massive improvements of energy density from ten-twenty years ago but also noted the improvements in recent years have plateaued. They were predicting there was not much more improvement to be got out of the technology.

[bee utey]

I would have thought someone like yourself would have understood the requiments for charging a battery bank that is capable of moving a large electric vehicle several hundred KM. A couple of hours at a campsite with a 2KVA Honda sure won't cut it, but I suspect you knew that's already. ;)

I'm sure we could spend hours cherry picking details of each others posts to snipe at but the reality is that the capabilities of electric vehicles continue to climb. The exact details of range extenders or even what yoofs do with their pa's genset will be unknown until they actually happen.

As for battery technology, the payoff for novel high capacity high reliability high volume low weight low cost batteries would be massive. It remains to be seen who unseats the current design of Lithium rechargeable first. I've read quite a few engineering reports of different architectures, different chemistries and nano manufacturing techniques and believe that change is coming. No doubt some will be red herrings but to believe that battery technology has reached a peak is amusing. A temporary plateau in some applications, perhaps.

[JDNSW]

Over the last couple of decades, there have been major improvements in batteries where the critical factor is size and mass per kw/hr. Or perhaps this be w/hr, because this new battery technology remains too costly for most applications where large amounts of power are used, and even in those applications where battery cost is virtually irrelevant, such as in mobile phones, there remain serious reliability issues.

Despite this, battery technology has advanced to the stage where EVs are actually realistic technology for many uses. The problem remains mainly one of cost of batteries, and the problem here is that for the type of battery being used today, made up of small individual cells, expecting economies of scale to make a major cost reduction seems to me to be a bit of a mirage. While some drop in costs can be expected, it needs to be realised that these cells are already being made in very large numbers, so that the major benefits of scale have already achieved.

While I have been wanting to own an EV for the last sixty years at least, I now have little hope that it will be possible to get one that either meets my needs or I can afford in the time left to me. The key, of course is the batteries, and here I have to point to my experience with home batteries in the last couple of decades. Recently having to rebuild the system due to a lightning strike, it was impossible to justify to the insurer replacing the lead acid batteries with anything else - new technology is simply not cost effective yet.

[Homestar]

Found this while cruising around YouTube last night.


https://youtu.be/AdPqWv-eVIc

[DiscoMick]

There is huge investment going into mass production of various types of lithium batteries which should lower costs and could be a game changer.

[Homestar]

If the Lithium can be found to fuel the production. Is There Enough Lithium to Maintain the Growth of the Lithium-Ion Battery Market? | Greentech Media (https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.greentechmedia.com/amp/article/is-there-enough-lithium-to-maintain-the-growth-of-the-lithium-ion-battery-m)

[VladTepes]

Firstly that Bollinger thing is HORRIBLE !


There is huge investment going into mass production of various types of lithium batteries which should lower costs and could be a game changer.

Which may mean that it's cheaper and more available BUT those things don't have any bearing on range and efficiency.

So I'm not sure how that could be described as a "game changer".

[loanrangie]

I LOL'd to see your comment about the ugliness of the electric truck coming from somebody with a pic of an FC in their sig. I'm presuming a dry sense of irony on display [biggrin]

Not sure if that was a compliment or i need to be offended [bighmmm].

[TB]

Not sure if that was a compliment or i need to be offended [bighmmm].

It was referring to Homestar with his Land Rover Forward Control (“FC”) monstrosity. Hopefully you can be amused rather than offended. :)

[loanrangie]

It was referring to Homestar with his Land Rover Forward Control (“FC”) monstrosity. Hopefully you can be amused rather than offended. :)

It literally just twigged, after all the FC was one of Holden's most beautiful designs [bigsmile1].

[Homestar]

It was referring to Homestar with his Land Rover Forward Control (“FC”) monstrosity. Hopefully you can be amused rather than offended. :)

Yes, I was amused, not offended. :)

[Zeros]

... the next Defender will be electric or hybrid. A 2018 Defender is looking very unlikely I reckon. It will 2020...and it will be radical.

see Disco Micks post here: Jaguar Land Rover goes hybrid electric (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/253358-jaguar-land-rover-goes-hybrid-electric.html)

[Homestar]

... the next Defender will be electric or hybrid. A 2018 Defender is looking very unlikely I reckon. It will 2020...and it will be radical.

see Disco Micks post here: Jaguar Land Rover goes hybrid electric (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/253358-jaguar-land-rover-goes-hybrid-electric.html)

I think those will certainly be options, but they'll have to release a petrol model for the USA and a diesel model will still be standard for most other places, but being able to get other power train options would be a good thing.

[Zeros]

Yes possibly a choice if power trains initially, but it sounds like a fairly rapid move to electric for JLR.

It will probably be ugly too 😜

[Homestar]

I'm still not convinced it will happen like they plan. I posted an article earlier that shows lithium deposits will be exhausted in as little as 7 years if the current expansion of lithium batteries continues at its current speed. I think another leap in battery tech is needed first.

[JDNSW]

More accurately, known lithium deposits will be exhausted.

Known deposits of lithium are small relative to demand simply because looking for new deposits when existing deposits can supply demand is considered a waste of shareholders' funds. Because of the rapid increase in demand, there is likely to be a temporary shortage, but this will most likely be overcome relatively rapidly. You only need to look at the history of oil shortages to see what is most likely to happen. Despite being at least a decade past the predicted 'peak oil', we now find that producers are trying to limit production to prop up the price, as it seems more and more likely that we may have actually reached peak oil demand not supply.

But I agree with the need for another battery breakthrough - as promising as lithium batteries are, they simply do not have the capacity per dollar nor per kilogram that is needed to see electric vehicles become the dominant type, nor, in my view, is there sufficient potential left for them to gain this, despite all the rhetoric about the economies of scale - they are already being made on such a large scale that most of the economies are already in, although I don't rule out the possibility of improvements in manufacturing technology that will give significant improvements.

[Colmoore]

If we could solve the challenges around electrical energy storage and delivery, I have no doubt that four wheels driven by four independent electric motors would be the absolutely best thing for off-road use. But even though I'm a clean energy advocate and I'm convinced that global warming is a very frickin real and present danger, the criticisms in this thread so far are not at all wrong.

I reckon electric vehicles will become the standard in cities where trips are short and infrastructure is dense. The biggest reason isn't global warming, it's to do with clean air and the advantages of automation.

Until we get some kind of break-through electric storage tech, extra-urban transport is going to be largely powered by liquid fuels which we either burn the same way we do today or perhaps catalyse directly into electricity in a future fuel cell. These vehicles will continue to emit gases.

Whether it's electric vehicles in cities or internal combustion engines in the bush, the real "green" issue is where the energy itself comes from. Fossil fuels are *the* problem, but wind and solar aren't even close to being *the* solution. I want to see modern (fuel efficient, clean, safe, reliable, low cost) nuclear replace the bulk of the world's energy supply, with wind/solar/hydro etc contributing in every place it makes sense for them to do so. Obviously nuclear heat can drive steam turbines to produce electricity. That heat also can be used to synthesise liquid fuels from renewable feedstock including from CO2 captured directly from the atmosphere.

I already own a baby Land Rover and I'm hoping to upgrade to a big one later on for touring our amazing country. My city car is currently a diesel Golf... but I have my eye on a Tesla 3.

Homestar... I LOL'd to see your comment about the ugliness of the electric truck coming from somebody with a pic of an FC in their sig. I'm presuming a dry sense of irony on display [biggrin]

Nuclear clean energy??? There's a good one......

[rick130]

Nuclear clean energy??? There's a good one......

Fusion?

Ok, that might be a ways off although there was a report in the last week the boffins think they've solved the containment issue.

Just need a bloody big Flux Capacitor!

It worked in an old Delorean.....[bigwhistle]

[bee utey]

Fusion?

Ok, that might be a ways off although there was a report in the last week the boffins think they've solved the containment issue.

Just need a bloody big Flux Capacitor!

It worked in an old Delorean.....[bigwhistle]

There's a really reliable nuclear fusion reactor only 150 million km away, and scientists have developed some clever collectors for the energy from it. Just need to get the storage and distribution finessed and we're good to go with 100% fusion power. [biggrin]

[biggin]

I agree. Be sure to let us all know when this happens.

[bee utey]

I agree. Be sure to let us all know when this happens.

It's happening now, it'll be a little while before you'll see massive projects linking up in Oz but yes, it's happening.

.................................

Oh you mean, when it's finally complete and perfect, like the world's very last Defender project? Sure, I'll let y'all know. [bigrolf]

[Mick_Marsh]

There's a really reliable nuclear fusion reactor only 150 million km away, and scientists have developed some clever collectors for the energy from it. Just need to get the storage and distribution finessed and we're good to go with 100% fusion power. [biggrin]
The collectors aren't clever enough. They don't work at night when we need the power.

[bee utey]

The collectors aren't clever enough. They don't work at night when we need the power.

You should get a Nobel Prize for that observation, I bet it hasn't occurred to anyone before today that this is indeed a problem. [bigrolf]

[Mick_Marsh]

You should get a Nobel Prize for that observation, I bet it hasn't occurred to anyone before today that this is indeed a problem. [bigrolf]

From the posts I have read on this forum, that observation hasn't occurred to a lot of the posters.

[bee utey]

From the posts I have read on this forum, that observation hasn't occurred to a lot of the posters.

Probably because their poor reptilian brainz explode when they see pinko commie worlds like "solar" and miss "storage and distribution" a few words further on. Can't be a "real man" without burning tons of stinky black stuff.

[TB]

Nuclear clean energy??? There's a good one......

Why I changed my mind about nuclear power | Michael Shellenberger | TEDxBerlin - YouTube (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ciStnd9Y2ak)

[Tins]

No doubt, but it's close to the ugliest thing I've ever had the misfortune to lay my eyes on. What is seen cannot be unseen unfortunately.

And I personally don't think it looks anything like a Land Rover - the only similarities IMO are that it has 4 wheels and exposed door hinges. It should be put out of its misery... [tonguewink]

Inspired by this, no doubt.132380