D3 dual battery system can = air suspension problems

[drivesafe]

For those of us who now own or are considering buying a new D3 or Range Rover Sports and are planning to install a dual battery system, I have been doing some research on fitting a system to my D3 and have come across some interesting findings.

First and for most, the new high tech alternators on both the D3 and RRS have microprocessors that monitor a number of function as well as working in conjunction with other onboard computers to optimise power usage in these vehicles.

One of the most important stats is that because these vehicles are fitted with calcium batteries, the alternator can, if required, produce voltages as high as 15.7 volts ( that is NOT a typo ) and as such, fitting an auxiliary battery other than another calcium battery will most likely mean a shorter operating life span for the auxiliary battery.

Another more obvious consequence of not fitting the right Dual Battery set up can mean problems can occurr with air suspension systems in these vehicles.

Contrary to what it may sound like, the electronics in these vehicles, specifically those assigned to looking after the vehicles electrical system is nothing short of amazing. For instance, the problems with air suspension system is not a fault but a self protection procedure.

Anyway the point I am raising is, if you are considering installing a Dual Battery System and can put it off for a few months, I would recommend doing so.

On the other hand, if you have a Dual Battery System installed and have had the air suspension appear to fail, before going back to the dealer first try disconnecting the Dual Battery System, thats the battery as well as the control device.

I will post more on this subject in the not to distant future, if anybody is interested.

Cheers

[p38arover]

I can believe that problems with the electronics can be caused by low voltage. The P38A gearbox ECU is particularly sensitive to voltage and will throw up error messages and then go into limp home mode.
Fortunately, one can usually clear them by doing a power down reset (turning the ignition off for a short time)

Ron

[drivesafe]

Hi Ron, what apparently goes on with the D3, to avoid the sort of thing you mentioned, in the D3 and RRS if the voltage starts to drop, the computer start shutting down non essential heavy current drawing devices. Things like the air suspension compressor, the heater, air conditioning, the sound system and so on, anything to keep the vehicle operating.

That’s a pretty incredible set up.

Cheers

[one_iota]

At work when the 'puters and the phones (because they are linked) stuff up we are required to call or email the central national "help desk" even though the IT guy who will fix it works in the office on the same floor.

Is there a help desk number on the dash?

[DEFENDERZOOK]

<span style="color:blue">if the confusers and the phone lines arent working....
how are you supposed to call or email for help......



thats why the IT guy is there on the same floor.....</span>

[Jamo]

Originally posted by drivesafe
Hi Ron, what apparently goes on with the D3, to avoid the sort of thing you mentioned, in the D3 and RRS if the voltage starts to drop, the computer start shutting down non essential heavy current drawing devices. Things like the air suspension compressor, the heater, air conditioning, the sound system and so on, anything to keep the vehicle operating.

That’s a pretty incredible set up.

Cheers

So if the voltage in the main battery starts to drop, it shuts down devices; or does it do it if the draw is too great whilst charging the aux battery.

I only ask because I have an aux battery and I have had my suspension stop working. :?: :?: :? :? :?

[drivesafe]

Hi jamo, I have read your posts and when I was told about the way the system works I immediately thought of your problems.

I can’t answer you with any certainty as I have passed on what I was told today while sourcing information about some new equipment we are developing.

The info I was given included, as I posted, as a means to try and find out if it is a fault or a protection routine being carried out buy the vehicles computer as a normal procedure, would be to disconnect your dual battery system first and see if that resolves the problem.

From what I can gather, and I’m still learning the ins and outs of the D3s electrical system in the areas that may effect the operation of our equipment and vice versa. Either a voltage drop and/or a large current draw can have an effect on a number of high current devices in the D3.

Sorry I can’t be more precise but as I pointed out above, I’m still learning about the system myself, but I will keep you posted.

Cheers

[drivesafe]

BTW, I mentioned that only a calcium battery could be used to avoid the battery ending up with a short life span.

Please note, I am NOT recommending you use a calcium battery for your auxiliary battery because, in my opinion, these types of batteries do not like being deep cycled or for that matter, they don’t like being discharged much below 15 to 20% of the full charge capacity so they won’t make good back up batteries.

Cheers

[Jamo]

Thanks drivesafe,

I know that my TR problems were to do with the faulty sensor, but I'm not so sure about the Suspensionfailure that I had at the same time.

I had been doing a lot of driving to that point so there should have been a full charger, but..

I had the fridge and satphone connected to the aux battery; and it was before I discovered the local blokes who installed the dual battery setup had wired it backwards!.

[Redback]

If this is the case Tim, then as the DII runs Calcium/Calcium wouldn't it be the same, and the DII alternator would put the same output (15.7volts) to the second battery.

Which means running a lead acid as the second battery in the DII or D3 is not good.

Baz.

[retiredbob]

I do not have a dual battery set up as yet but am having the suspension problems - so can cancel that one.

[drivesafe]

Hi Baz, your right about the DIIs having Calcium/calcium batteries but they don’t have the high tech alternators or the advance level of battery management the the D3s have so they probably don’t charge voltages over 14.5 maximum at anytime.

Cheers.

[Jamo]

Just got a suspension warning on the way back to the office a few minutes ago.

Might be the battery, as I had just been for a short run, but when I switched the car off and then on again it went away. If it persists, I'll disconnect the aux system and see what happens.

I'll keep an eye on it. Going up to Kalgoorlie to get the new Steering Angle Sensor fitted in two week, so I'll get them to 'interrogate' the suspension system just in case it is the compressor having problems. The UK chaps say there is a new Jan 06 compressor that fixes a lot of problems. :? :?

[Jamo]

Well thanks drivesafe! Since your email, I've now got a persistent Suspension Warning!

I tested the voltage at across the terminals of the main battery and it showed 12.5V when the car was off and 14.5V at idle.

Tomorrow I will disconnect the dual battery setup and see what happens.

It's a real pain being 400km from the nearest T4.

[drivesafe]

Hi Jamo, it was a strange voltage reading that I got from the D3 that started me on my quest to find out as much as I could about the D3s battery monitoring.

The D3 had a voltage reading of 13.85 at idle and under power, which after some snooping and taking the temperature into account was exactly the correct charge voltage required for the calcium / calcium battery.

While my RRs voltage is 14.3 at all times and the RR’s battery is huge when compered to the D3’s but for the first time since I bought the RR over 3 years ago, I didn’t drive RR for nearly three weeks ( had a new D3 to play with ) and the battery went flat in the RR but I know this is a common problem with vehicles like the new RRs.

Anyway, keep us informed.

[Jamo]

I've disconnected the Aux battery.

Still get the same 12.5V and 14.5V readings.

Interestingly, the aux was showing 14.5V when at idle (before I disconnected), just the same as the main batt, but 13.2V when the car is switched off.

I'll leave it for w while and see what happens. The susp warning comes on about 30 sec after start up and is preceded by a slight klunk from the direction of the compressor.

If it isn't the aux batt setup, I'm hoping that the warning is still on when I drive into the Dealer in Kalgoorlie on the 17th!

When reading the UK site, they mention a new compressor being available, but there was one chap who's alternator was faulty. :? :? :? :? :?

[drivesafe]

Hi Jamo, if your batteries are in good nick then after about 12 hours or more after turning the motor off, they should show readings between 12.5 to 12.8 depending on the type of battery being tested.

Next, this is not the only reason for your air suspension system to be operating erratically, you may have an unrelated fault that needs addressing.

Also, if it is the dual battery system causing the erratic air suspension operations then it is NOT a faulty alternator, it is a case of an incompatible dual battery system.

This is the area that I am looking into.

Cheers.

[PCH]

Wow guys,

I'm glad I didn't decide to go with a dual battery set up.

I just use a portable deep cycle battery which is charged when we are on the move between campsites.

I did have electical problems causing TR and Range Change error at start up but this was due to a loose +ve battery lug but that was found (out of sheer luck) after 3 visits 8O . LRA was starting to suspect my remote battery sockets where a source of the problem but they weren't.

So in my opinion the electical system on the D3 is one not to tamper with.

Chris

[RichardK]

Thanks for the info, Drivesafe, I had just finished the wiring for my Prodigy and dual battery setup.
I was going to install the ARB solnoid system, they explaijned to me that it only charges one battery at a time, but from your comments I think that if I flatten my aux battery and the system switches to charge that battery then the current draw may do as you say and start shutting down some systems.

Please advise your findings ASAP as I want a second battery operational by Easter and certainly for the CSR trip in July https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

[drivesafe]

Hi RichardK, I will post any details I learn as I get them.

PCH, from what I can gather just hooking a battery up may cause the system to carry out self protective routines.

Keep doing what you are doing, but if you think there are some strange events happening, try leaving the auxiliary battery disconnected and see if the problems still occur.

The thing is, the D3’s electrical monitoring system keeps track of not only the amount of current that the alternator produces BUT it also keeps track of what devices are being used and it knows how much power should be required to keep these devices operating.

If it sensors the alternator is required to produce more power than the vehicles electric's should be using, it then starts to shut non essential things down to protect more important devices so the vehicle has a far better chance of getting home.

From what I have learnt so far, the electrical monitoring system not only keeps track of power usage but it comperes this info with thing like the rpms of the motor so it virtually knows in advance just how much power the alternator can be expected to be able to produce.

With all the above in mind, you can now see how adding an additional current draw that an auxiliary battery will require, the monitor has no way of knowing what is causing this additional power drain so it thinks there is a problem and as such starts it’s routine to protect the essential device and keep them running.

It all sounds a bit over the top but it is actually an incredible system that should have some long term advantages for battery life amongst other things.

Cheers.

[Jamo]

It may be a case of telling the car that there is an extra device so that it doesn't get confused. I know that if you fit LR OEM spotties the car has to be hooked up to the T4 and told that they are there before they will work.

My problems appear to be more of a mechanical nature. I've disconnected the aux battery. The susp warning has come on twice since, but... I mad ethe mistake of dropping to access height when I stopped earlier today. After about 20km driving, the car is STILL trying to raise itself to normal height. I get 'Suspension Raising Slowly' and 'System paused until cooled down'. I got the latter message when I used the car for the first time today, so it wasn't like the compressor had been used a lot. And the external temp was 25degC.

So, at a guess, I'd say my compressor is STUFFED!! :x :x :x

[drivesafe]

Hi Jamo, I’m interested to see what happens once I have my lights hooked up and If you have disconnected the auxiliary battery and the problems still exist then it definitely sounds like a fault.

Keep us informed.

Cheers and best of luck.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

very interesting thread,,

hey Tim,, 2 things, whats the go with calcium batteries? and why do the RR's go flat when not driven for such a short time?

and


if a software mod can tell the car it now has driving lights, why not the same for dual batteries?

it is just an extra current draw on the system.

[CraigE]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>If it isn't the aux batt setup, I'm hoping that the warning is still on when I drive into the Dealer in Kalgoorlie on the 17th!

[/b][/quote]

Jamo,
You have to come all the way up to Kal to get the D3 looked at? No dealer in Esperance anymore or just no LR mechanical knowledge?
There are more and more reasons mounting as too why I should not buy a D3. 4x4 manufacturers need to remember that some people still use 4x4s as 4x4s and need to allow for normal accessories and the need to accommodate them. As nice as they are the D3 is starting to sound like a space shuttle and a phd needed to work on them. Would hate to have a problem in a remote area especially after warranty and roadside assist have expired. Even with the TD5 I could make most temporary repairs to limp on, not counting terminal breakdowns.
Latest is the light switch block, no lights on the Fender when the missus got in to come home from work the other night. Looks like the constant power points have melted into the tray on the block not making contact. I am hoping these switch blocks are a common item at the auto sparky when I go down on Monday.
Call in for a cuppa or a beer/bourbon on your way back or if I am in Kal give us a yell and I will pick you up, if you need to go somewhere.

[drivesafe]

Hi Pedro, the flat battery syndrome is not restricted to just RRs. The VW towrag has an even sorter non use span on it’s battery and I would not be surprised if both the D3 and the RRS don’t have similar problems if left for more than 2 weeks.

It’s a problem that is only going to get worse before it gets better and it will affect a whole range of deferent makes of vehicles.

As I posted, I can’t wait to get the 4 driving lights on the D3 to see what happens and if anything does occur, see what can be done to over come any problems.

Hi CraigE, although it sounds a bit over the top, the added advantages that all this electronic advancement gives, particularly in improved safety and being able to pre-empt major faults and the ability to prevent major failures far out weigh any disadvantages.

20 years ago, electronic replacements of mechanical devices were already proving to be 100 times more reliable than their mechanical counterparts. I have no idea how far ahead electronics are now.

Cheers.

[Jamo]

Just went out and started the car and it recommenced trying to get to Normal height. It seems to be of the opinion that the vehicle is "raising slowly" but I think it's kidding itself.

I had my spotties fitted in Perth and used them on the way home. Didn't have any problems at all.

I agree Tim, the electronic systems are actually far more reliable, it's just a matter of working to how to integrate with them.

I've also used the dual battery setup with the fridge attached before and had no problems. But that is not to say that this is not part of my problem now.

What I suspect is this:

1. When I lost TR and height adjustment on the beach that time, I actually had two problems and not one. The Steering Angle Sensor caused the TR probs, but the compressor caused the suspension probs.

2. Either the dealer tech didn't ask the car the right question when seaching for the problem; or came to the first problem (sensor) and failed to look further; or the compressor system didn't believe it had a problem so didn't report one. I have read on the UK site that the latter situation has occured and it was only after insisting on a new compressor being fitted did the problem go away. (LR is aware of significant compressor problems with the first two models).

3. That the compressor has been slowly failing on me and is now U/S.

4. The dual battery setup may have compounded the problems. Particularly for me as I have also have spot lights and a winch.

Question. I haven't used the winch yet and it is connected to the main battery. Will it be drawing current even if it's not being used??

Craig, can you send me a PM with your mobile and we'll try and drop in. The Esperance dealer lost their LR dealership. Not surprised really as 12 months later I am still waiting for them to call with a price on the D3!! I have been going to Perth, but I'd like to switch to Kal cause it's only 4 hours away instead of 8. Something the dealer in Perth didn't seem to understand when they called me on a Tuesday and wanted the car in that Thursday! Generally, though, Souther LR have been quite good, just too far away!

Thanks for all your research Tim! Look forward to finding out how to get around the battery problem. Incidently, I've also carried a 40ah battery pack for some time any not had any problems. But I suppose it may have been a matter of time.

You know there really must be a way around it. I just checked the workshop manual on the GTR and the area next to the ABS gear where I put my second battery is actually called 'Auxilliary Battery Tray' in the manual!!

[drivesafe]

Hi again Jamo, I was about to go and get a battery to fit the “ Auxiliary Battery “ housing but I’m putting it off for a little while for obvious reasons.

Cheers.

[PCH]

Originally posted by Jamo
It may be a case of telling the car that there is an extra device so that it doesn't get confused. I know that if you fit LR OEM spotties the car has to be hooked up to the T4 and told that they are there before they will work.



This is a most interesting thread.

I wonder if LR also do this to teach the D3 that the LR winch option is fitted. I cannot imagine another higher current drawing device than a winch under operation.

Drivesafe, there must be a certain current draw (in addition to the standard electronics in the D3) that LR have allowed the D3 to tolerate before shutting down systems to allow you to use portable devices via the 12V sockets. Any idea what this might be in amps?

So far I've had the following accessories running all at once without any problem: 1. Weaco 12V 36AH battery on charge via an Engel charging unit, Weaco 50lt fridge running at 0 dec C or below, Coleman shower pump battery recharging, 5W UHF radio and GPS.

I'll certainly try to remember when functions begin to fail while touring to strat disconnecting 12V accessories like battery charging.

Chris.

[drivesafe]

Hi PCH, as I posted, I’m still learning about the electric power set up and requirements of the D3 but from what I understand, it’s not just the total load that is monitored. It’s also things like the vehicles own current requirements, the operating voltage, engine RPMs and a number of other factors and ( here I am just guessing ) with all the info being monitored, if say the voltage starts to drop because there is to much load being put on the system for the alternator to be able to keep the operating voltage at what the computer thinks it should be at, then it starts to shut down non essential devices.

Now if you driving down the road at a fair speed, which means the alternator is being spun at or above it’s optimum speed then there is probably enough power output to maintain the system’s voltage levels with any extras that you may have running.

On the other hand if you were off-road, working your way along miles of rough track at slow speeds. You are most likely to have the D3 raised to it’s max so the compressor is going to be working overtime.

At this point, a normal vehicle will just suffer from a falling voltage levels, but I think it’s a situation like this where the alternator on the D3 or RRS may not be able to meet the demands being put on it, so the computer starts it’s self protection routines and where strange things may occur.

Remember, I said this is just a guess.

Cheers.

[Jamo]

Drivesafe, the way I read the Workshop Manual, when the system starts shutting down air suspension etc becasue of charging reasons, the message centre should give a 'warning - low battery' warning.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

[RichardK]

Any further news on this problem, Drivesafe?

[drivesafe]

Hi RichardK, at this time I have still to follow up on more info.

The reason I was able to get what I have so far is because Land Rover Australia’s Technical Division contacted me last year and asked us if we could come up with a modified version of the SC40 to meet the special voltage requirements of both the D3 and the Range Rover Sports.

We sent some units to LRA for testing and evaluation and we have just received verbal approval from both LRA and LR in Britain for the special SC40 to be fitted to both vehicles and we are already supplying the dealers that are aware of the approval.

In a very short time we will be marketing a full kit including a new Land Rover specific SC45 with all terminated cable, battery mounting bracket and all the hardware needed to do a full installation.

The only thing you will need to source is the battery and we are working on a possible deal there as well, for customers.

BTW, to our knowledge, the SC40 is the only Dual Battery Controller approved for D3s or RRSs, anywhere in the world.

Cheers

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Originally posted by drivesafe

the SC40 is the only Dual Battery Controller approved for D3s or RRSs, anywhere in the world.
Cheers


Thats not a bad ad right there Tim https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

[HSVRangie]

Top work there drivesafe.

MIchael.

[Farnarkle]

Very interesting reading- all this info is being filed for my very nearly but not quite financed D3 - and my order goes in as soon as I can pay cash for it- more D3 questions on this subject though. Say I get hold of a D3 and put the ARB bull bar on the front - as per the photo elsewhere in this forum - I would want the winch and driving lights mounted as well - from what I gather the ecu has to be told that the extra bits are there. Does that mean only LR supplied goodies will work? Or do you get other makes of goodies installed but not finally connected and take it to a dealer to do the last bit?

Farnarkle

[Jamo]

Originally posted by Farnarkle
Very interesting reading- all this info is being filed for my very nearly but not quite financed D3 - and my order goes in as soon as I can pay cash for it- more D3 questions on this subject though. Say I get hold of a D3 and put the ARB bull bar on the front - as per the photo elsewhere in this forum - I would want the winch and driving lights mounted as well - from what I gather the ecu has to be told that the extra bits are there. Does that mean only LR supplied goodies will work? Or do you get other makes of goodies installed but not finally connected and take it to a dealer to do the last bit?

Farnarkle

No.

I have the arb bar, warn winch and xs900 spotties fitted and the ecu didn't need to be told. They all work fine!

it's only if you are putting on LR items as they plug into the special plugs in the Bus.

I discussed this with the dealer before I had them fitted at ARB just to make sure it was alright. https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

Drivesafe, as soon as you have the SC45 available, Let me know so I can replace the TJM item I currently have.

[incisor]

excellent stuff tim!

wonder if they found out about you thru this site ?

[drivesafe]

I think so, there’s a lot more to it and I tell you about it next time I see you.

Cheers

[RichardK]

Thanks for the update Drivesafe, please let us know as soon as it is available, I will certainly want one, it may be a good idea to let ARB know as well

[Redback]

This has been the best thread i've read on here and i have also taken in some very good info that, i think transfer to my DII.

Congratulations Tim on having your dual battery monitor accepted by LRA, all that hard work didn't go astray.

Baz.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

I think its great that Aussies are at the forefront of D3 developement.

You GO Tim!!! https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

[PCH]

Drivesafe,

Once you get this all sorted out there is a market for your hard work over in Europe.

They are doing similar things over there but maybe your solution will be approved by LR.

See here:

http://www.disco3.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php't=3133

Chris

[drivesafe]

Thanks PCH, I went and had a sticky and put a cat amongst the pigeons.

Cheers :wink: