Panels beaters for RRC required (Meccles et al) apply within

[workingonit]

Currently I'm dealing with 4 areas of rust on an 84 RRC body and wondered if people could offer some advice on which welding technology and wire specification they have been using to make malleable welds. The aim is to produce malleable welds which can be hammered to relieve stress and distortion. Been watching Meccles work, by way of example.

I'm particularly concerned about avoiding distortion of the box section channel that is associated with the RRC drivers side lower door frame. The box was originally made with folded sheet, the flap forming the footwell is substantially wider than the other three sides. Seems you can buy ready made replacement piece, but I don't think my rust issue warrants such a major bit of work ie re-attaching 'A' and 'B' pillars.

What I've done so far is remove the rusted drivers floor area (the widest flap of the box so to speak) and exposed the remaining 3 sides of the channel, which look in good nick. Now I want to weld new floor paneling to what remains of the channel without distorting the channel.

Because its box section with no hand access I've ground a high tensile bolt to have a small dolly head, which I can shove through slightly enlarged drain holes in the bottom of the channel - with support of the ground bolt head under the weld area I can then hammer the weld from the top, the outside. That's the theory.

The second patch of rust is in the front passenger well, very small and easy.

The third and forth rust patches are significant and are found where the rear passenger flooring meets the rear wheel arch, both left and right wheel arch and floor areas are affected, directly above the body to chassis mount point. The mount points in these areas also need replacing.

I'm not overly worried about being able to fabricate the replacement pieces, more the sorting of wire specs and welding technology to use to create malleable welds.

TIG and oxy/acet seem to be preferred for producing malleable welds. In a sense I'm looking for justification of using what I've got ie the MIG, but how.

By way of background.

I've done butt patchwork on old vehicle floors, tractor and machinery panels, using mix of oxy/acet and MIG, where weld hardness and bit of distortion could be ignored.

Have a MIG, only ever using core flux wire. The machine can take gas. I'm working in the open breeze. Reading and from experience MIG welds (buttons in this case) cool too quickly and result in hard welds (alloy content influence as well), generally way stronger than parent material being welded. Reading the web, if persisting with MIG (not preferred choice by many panel people) then switch to solid core and argon shield. Trouble is the varying opinions. Some like 'mild steel wire', ER70S-6, ER70S-7, 'Easy Grind'. For every adherent of a wire type there is someone who has had a bad experience trying to hammer it and if they succeed it often splits. The adherents retort poor technique, poor cooling methods, manufacturer has changed composition, isn't made anymore etc. Local advice 'the boiler makers use lots of this MIG wire, so must be good (for panels)'. So can you really create good malleable welds, consistently, with MIG?

Have stick but not suitable for really thin stuff.

Have oxy/acet gear but gave bottles back to BOC years ago because of high rental costs. There are few businesses in Darwin that offer bottle swaps - one did then stopped because supplies from down south were erratic - one was, but now suspended sales until certification issues sorted, and who knows when - one with prices a bit over the top by comparison - Bunnings not certain, being evaluated, if 'yes' then in the new year.

Don't have TIG, but not against getting one. Again, working in the open breeze.

Prefer oxy/acet over TIG because can do other things, breeze not such a problem for oxy/acet, repairs not an issue up here (BOC MIG, got to go south!!), handy when remote from electricity, contamination less of a worry, can have a water supply at hand (misting hose) to stop old sealant fires without fear of electrocution. Could hire oxy/acet for the duration but really like to 'buy' bottles and to have a good heat source on hand all year (using small can MAPP at the moment).

[Meccles]

Mate we used a spot welder for all thin panels not MIG or TIG. See if you can find someone with one they are best for thin material. Add to that modern sealant/ adhesive and it should suffice.

[bblaze]

got a mate who is a master craftsman with rust and panel repair, old time tradie when they did repairs.
He always uses oxy/act on rust repairs for patching with wire, for doing pinholes in a otherwise good panel he uses the oxy with bronze filler rods
some times he will use the tig but reckons the oxy is better because it helps kill the rust. I have never seen him peen a weld on panels to relieve the weld as such but have seen him do plenty of stretching and shrinking with gas, hammers and dolleys.
He also has a couple of good migs in his shop and I have never seen him do rust work with a mig.
Me on the other hand, I use a mig with gas and wire for most of what I do.
cheers
blaze

[Woolly]

Re oxy bottle rent, when the local Bunnings got into oxy, I rang BOC and talked to a helpful lady called Jaymie who said they could match that deal where you virtually only pay for the gas you use, no bottle rental. I'd suggest if you really want to use oxy for this or any other job, and there is a BOC agent handy,you give them a call.

[workingonit]

Woolly. I think you may have nipped this thread in the bud. I rang BOC a couple of times over the last maybe 18-24 months and there was no competitive interest.

Just rang them now and this is their plan structure, if I understood correctly.

They have a G and D bottle plan. No E plan, so that makes it harder to compare to the bottle swap system, up here at least E is what is basically on offer.

For the G plan:
- Oxygen, pay $179 for the 12 month period. So you walk away with a full bottle, and are entitled to one refill during the 12 months for the price - that's $89.50 a fill effectively. If you want additional refills in the 12 months then its $179 per fill.
- Acetylene, pay $249. Full bottle and a refill - effectively $129.50 a fill. Additional refill $249.

No rental and includes GST.

After 12 months you go through the process again, paying $179 and $249 for two fills of each gas.

Compare this to a swap system, E only unfortunately up here at the moment. Buy E oxy bottle $450 with one fill included, plus each fill after that is $140 (not much under the BOC $179 for a G). Acet bottle $575 with one fill included, plus refills $175 (BOC $249 for a G).

BOC is tempting. Could I see myself normally going through two fills of each a year - probably not? But would I see myself getting lots of practice for the sake of using two fills of each before the 12 months is out - yes.

[Davo]

This guy: SOUP - Classic Motoring E.10 // Lotus Esprit S2, Range Rover, MG Midget, Lotus Europa, Hillman Imp - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXIdNBK5VNU) is doing an incredible amount of work, just with fluxcore. The reason is because he's using a borrowed welder as he simply can't afford a gas MIG. It isn't pretty, but it's working out well for him. I've done similar welding on my Rangie because I had the same problem you've had - those damned gas cylinders and all the expense and problems of getting them up here. I do have some little disposable cylinders now, saved for important stuff. Fluxcore isn't ideal at all, of course, but it does make repairs possible when you can't get anything else.

[workingonit]

Thanks Davo. Remoteness can be a pain at times. According to remoteness classification people who live in the great divide around the NSW/Vic border are more remote than Darwin, based on physical access to services (not accounting for having a hospital but not necessarily the required staff etc).

I'm being pedantic about the door frame, to ensure the channel doesn't get pulled in and cause a problem for dust sealing when the door closes, and don't want to risk pulling the A and B toward each other causing door fit/door lock issues. A hammerable weld helps correct distortion.

I've used oxy before to correct distortion by contra heating, but that has been on construction work - you couldn't straighten it with mallets, winching etc. The professional welder put on some bracing plates on the inside of the RRC chassis, but induced some distortion. I had to rejig the cross bracing member more than original calculations suggested would be needed. If I had oxy on hand at the time I would have contra heated the chassis, but this bit of distortion was not critical.

The guy in your clip is doing good work, and doesn't seem to be having distortion issues.

[Davo]

Yes, he's managing well, I think because the amount of heat isn't enough to cause much trouble. It usually isn't with those repairs, and plenty of people have done sills and pillars on Range Rovers without needing to make any adjustments later on.

[workingonit]

Today I dragged three G cylinders into the shed - they are heavy! Oxy, acet and argon universal. Will have to figure a way of getting them indoors/outdoors with less back strain.

Will try the 0.6 mild steel wire with the MIG/argon first, but need to set up a wind barrier. Otherwise the oxy/acet. The BOC guy says the argon universal can't be used with a TIG.

The BOC guy asked if I really needed such big cylinders. The only other size they offered was the D.

The G holds 7 metres with refill cost of $249 while the D holds 1 at a refill of $108 (if I remember correctly). If volumes are a guide (and if I have thought the the conundrum through properly) then I will have to run the D seven times to the depot for over $756 compared to one trip at $249. Give me cheap gas.[bigsmile1]

[Davo]

I guess you need to make a cylinder cart first!

The 0.6mm is ideal for what you want to do. When I finally got those little disposable cylinders and used that size, it was luxurious compared to fluxcore.

[russellrovers]

Currently I'm dealing with 4 areas of rust on an 84 RRC body and wondered if people could offer some advice on which welding technology and wire specification they have been using to make malleable welds. The aim is to produce malleable welds which can be hammered to relieve stress and distortion. Been watching Meccles work, by way of example.

I'm particularly concerned about avoiding distortion of the box section channel that is associated with the RRC drivers side lower door frame. The box was originally made with folded sheet, the flap forming the footwell is substantially wider than the other three sides. Seems you can buy ready made replacement piece, but I don't think my rust issue warrants such a major bit of work ie re-attaching 'A' and 'B' pillars.

What I've done so far is remove the rusted drivers floor area (the widest flap of the box so to speak) and exposed the remaining 3 sides of the channel, which look in good nick. Now I want to weld new floor paneling to what remains of the channel without distorting the channel.

Because its box section with no hand access I've ground a high tensile bolt to have a small dolly head, which I can shove through slightly enlarged drain holes in the bottom of the channel - with support of the ground bolt head under the weld area I can then hammer the weld from the top, the outside. That's the theory.

The second patch of rust is in the front passenger well, very small and easy.

The third and forth rust patches are significant and are found where the rear passenger flooring meets the rear wheel arch, both left and right wheel arch and floor areas are affected, directly above the body to chassis mount point. The mount points in these areas also need replacing.

I'm not overly worried about being able to fabricate the replacement pieces, more the sorting of wire specs and welding technology to use to create malleable welds.

TIG and oxy/acet seem to be preferred for producing malleable welds. In a sense I'm looking for justification of using what I've got ie the MIG, but how.

By way of background.

I've done butt patchwork on old vehicle floors, tractor and machinery panels, using mix of oxy/acet and MIG, where weld hardness and bit of distortion could be ignored.

Have a MIG, only ever using core flux wire. The machine can take gas. I'm working in the open breeze. Reading and from experience MIG welds (buttons in this case) cool too quickly and result in hard welds (alloy content influence as well), generally way stronger than parent material being welded. Reading the web, if persisting with MIG (not preferred choice by many panel people) then switch to solid core and argon shield. Trouble is the varying opinions. Some like 'mild steel wire', ER70S-6, ER70S-7, 'Easy Grind'. For every adherent of a wire type there is someone who has had a bad experience trying to hammer it and if they succeed it often splits. The adherents retort poor technique, poor cooling methods, manufacturer has changed composition, isn't made anymore etc. Local advice 'the boiler makers use lots of this MIG wire, so must be good (for panels)'. So can you really create good malleable welds, consistently, with MIG?

Have stick but not suitable for really thin stuff.

Have oxy/acet gear but gave bottles back to BOC years ago because of high rental costs. There are few businesses in Darwin that offer bottle swaps - one did then stopped because supplies from down south were erratic - one was, but now suspended sales until certification issues sorted, and who knows when - one with prices a bit over the top by comparison - Bunnings not certain, being evaluated, if 'yes' then in the new year.

Don't have TIG, but not against getting one. Again, working in the open breeze.

Prefer oxy/acet over TIG because can do other things, breeze not such a problem for oxy/acet, repairs not an issue up here (BOC MIG, got to go south!!), handy when remote from electricity, contamination less of a worry, can have a water supply at hand (misting hose) to stop old sealant fires without fear of electrocution. Could hire oxy/acet for the duration but really like to 'buy' bottles and to have a good heat source on hand all year (using small can MAPP at the moment).hi i have a friend who is selling hi 2 door chassi with gearbox and p76 motor rust free western qld jim

[workingonit]

Thanks russellrovers. I'd think the vehicle would be of more interest to two door V8 enthusiasts. I'm installing a diesel into mine.

Up here I can get operational (just) vehicles occasionally for $200 (or less) and deal with the rust for a fraction of what it would cost to get a vehicle in from Qld.

I have four, and they are all rust free in the coachwork until you lift the carpet[biggrin] There's none in any of the chassis thankfully.

[DoubleChevron]

Thanks russellrovers. I'd think the vehicle would be of more interest to two door V8 enthusiasts. I'm installing a diesel into mine.

Up here I can get operational (just) vehicles occasionally for $200 (or less) and deal with the rust for a fraction of what it would cost to get a vehicle in from Qld.

I have four, and they are all rust free in the coachwork until you lift the carpet[biggrin] There's none in any of the chassis thankfully.

If it's just the floor, all you need is a MIG welder. you can either make the patch or buy a new floor depending on the extent of the rust. just make a bigger patch panel, screw it over the top and run a cutting wheel around it (cutting through the patch panel and floor). This will get you a perfect sized "patch" to weld into the floor.... If that makes sense

this is how I did the floor in one of my old cars


http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/citro%EBn-forum/90325-best-project-car-you-have-ever-seen-23.html#post1053524



seeya,
Shane L.

[workingonit]

Thanks for the links, always interesting to see how others have tackled these tasks - will read in depth later this evening.

My RRC chassis is the earlier type, where much of the floor is screwed or rivetted together. At least I can carry parts of the RRC floor into the shed and out of the wind.

But I'm still stuck outside with the part of the floor that forms the bottom of the door frame. Making patches is not so relevant for this bit as it is a case of a large piece of sheet metal being fully welded on three sides, the longest along the door frame. The forth side is spot welded to a bit of supporting angle iron, and to this you screw in the tunnel section, if that makes sense.

Got to admit that I've already hacked out most of the front floor rust. Still got to deal with the rusted body mounts under the rear seat where the floor meets the rear wheel arch.

I have an ulterior motive for 'going overboard or **** farting around' with this job as some might see it - I want to develop the welding skill to sensibly ensuring I can get soft welds that can be worked for distortion and do a good job on the door frame of the RRC, before I move onto a Toyota troopy that is a garden of rust blooms in the roof, window columns, floor, bonnet etc - most being openly visible and requiring good work. Getting patch technique right for the Toyota job is a must.

If I understood them correctly, a number of restoration folk talk about creating a patch by cutting the hole, then overlap the patch, tack it a couple of places, then grind down the excess to make a very tight fitting patch, if not slightly in tension by the sounds of it. The emphasis was on tight fitting with no gap, tightness to help compensate for shrinkage, peening generally still required. The welder is set to penetrate the tight margin and not approached as a gappy margin filling in exercise, if that makes sense. I don't quite understand how they take an overlap piece and with some grinding somehow end up with it flush in the hole and very tight. Intending to find a youtube example.

With the method described in your link there is at least a 1mm gap all round the patch ie 2mm if pushed to one side, but at least the process makes sense to me, compared to the other, above.

As an aside I have a wrecked D1 stripped and the floor shape and pillars are identical to the RRC, except for the seat mount bosses and the fact it is all spot welded - shows how little the basic coach design has changed over all that time - would be a bugger to undo all those welds - tempting though to put the D1 floor into the RRC and have D1 seats - belts would require a work around.

The kids also drive D1's that I bought cheapish (I forced the vehicles onto them, for free - don't think I would inflict the vehicles on them and expect them to pay for them). Their two vehicle had sodden floors last wet and so I expect to do some simpler panel patching there.

I have a list of welding 'opportunites' as long as my arm...rusted chassis in series 3 stage 1...Corolla manifold...smashed tractor panels galore...ride on mower with dropped deck...quad bike with all plastics begging for metal replacement...make vehicle rotisserie...etc

Oh, and the wife wants a steel pergola. But sorry dear, the RRC comes first. [thumbsupbig]

[Mercguy]

I'm not a panelbeater.

In the past on my cars I've done patch panels a couple of different ways. one is with a spotweld drill, and a complete replacement panel, which I tig in place through the spotweld holes, and use thin sika-panel on the join edge overlap as per factory. Then I pay a spraypainter, because I'm just not good at panel prep and rubbing back.
I also weld with very low amps and a small tungsten but use a gas lens instead of ceramic cup - mostly so I can see what I'm doing. The older I get the harder it is to control my shaking.

The other way is my 'bodge' method.
First, I find piece of matching metal thickness and dimension. flap wheel it clean about 1" around matching perimeter on both panel and cutout parent metal area.
lay patch over, self-tap screw it down evenly over the parent metal cutout hole.
cut one edge through the patch, adjacent to the parent edge, use the thinnest cutoff wheel in the grinder.
press fit that edge to the parent metal edge. tack it in place with tig several spots along the edge, but NOT in the corners.
I do the same on the opposite edge, tack in place.
Then do the same on adjacent edge, tack in place, then do the edge opposite.

This leaves me with a patch that fits exact to the parent, with room for filler rod.
Then I can remove the screws and the waste patch material.
fill the screw holes, with lowest possible amperage. dolly flat if I distort it.
then turn my attention to the patch. hammer and dolly on the edge I want to start on, tack welds half way in between every existing tack, do the same on the opposite side, then adjacent, then opposite.
Then I can use hammer and dolly to get the desired shape needed.

Then, I use tig to fill every second gap on opposite edges - but diagonally opposite, if that makes sense - i.e. down one side but up the opposite side. Then do same for the other two sides and repeat the whole shebang once more.
This leaves you with a low distortion infill panel, with minimal filler material, and easily ground flat on both sides, leaving it invisible (unless you weld with too much current, which will distort)

The best thing about the infill method, is that you can use whatever you have laying around. The downside is the time it takes to do the job carefully, if you cannot tolerate any distortion in the metal - this works for door skins, firewalls and all external sheetmetal, the only difference being that where a panel has a hidden side, you don't have to grind - nonetheless, it always helps to post-treat any infill panels with dinitrol etc to keep the rust out.

This is the process I also use on alloy repairs, but it's more important to have alloy surfaces absolutely astringent - they simply cannot be clean enough when it comes to welding repairs. Having a watercooled pulse tig helps for heavy alloy work though. I also use a large lump of alloy for a heatsink when I have thin flat buttwelds, because anything thinner than 1mm is going to distort over long edge lengths.

I have never have been a mig fan, probably because I grew up in a family of tradespeople. I learned on oxy-acetylene and stick but have to say I can't use a stick to save myself (according to boilermaker uncle) so for me tig was dead simple, but oxy even easier.
You could do all of this with an oxy - The only thing is your tip selection would be right down there with lead welding though..... and the approach would be slightly different. I have a lead welding torch I made about 25 years ago which I use occasionally for super thin gas welding, brazing and silver soldering and low meltingpoint materials.

If you're not confident, all I can say is grab a bunch of scrap material the same thickness as what you intend to weld, clean the edges up with a disc and practice butt-welding them, with the same gap that you anticipate. get your welder current and feed rates set, and keep practicing until you are satisfied you won't introduce distortion, that your tacks are clean, with low buildup and good penetration, and then you will literally be able to knock it over in a very short time. The best bit is that you will have a LOT of confidence that you can weld a complete panel in - like a sunroof or a door skin or a sill panel - without distortion.

If you have the ability to use a large piece of metal behind your weld as a heatsink, then use it. Yes, setup time takes longer, but the additional heatsink behind the weld will help prevent localized distortion.

just make sure your metal prep is good - clean fresh metal joins without rust is the only way to guarantee a top quality result.

With a mig you also have the option of using a dual core flux feedwire, I've seen it produce decent results - I just hate slag, which is also why I also hate stick welding. That and I was told years ago I should stick to gas....

Welding is a skill, yes. It is also a skill that is easily lost. Not the basic techniques, but the finesse. You need to be familiar with the materials behaviour and you only get that through direct exposure / experiencing the specific conditions of that material though welding it! catch 22! (this is how you tell a pro from a part-timer).

At the end of the day we all use what's most comfortable for us, and the only way you can get better at welding is to practice, practice, practice. I clearly remember spending entire school holidays a couple years in a row learning to cut, braze, solder and weld with oxy-acetylene in uncles welding works (in the early 80's before they called them 'fab shops') and it was a very tough 'education' (you know the kind of tough that only family can give) . Probably why I never pursued it as a career, and although I got certified for confined spaces and vertical overhead 20+ years ago, I wouldn't say I'm anywhere near as good as I was, nor would my skills hold up today, without a few weeks worth of 'retraining' Even today, I could go downstairs and fire up the tig, and be completely useless for the first 30 minutes, until I got 'familiar' with the material, and tried a few setting adjustments to make my technique work. With oxy, it was always just tip size, flame type and how much heat. These days the electronic trickery can help, or mostly help you stuff things up - so I have found. :D

What I am better at, is taking my time and not rushing. A practice that takes years to get out of your system- So my only really useful advice is - take your time.
Hope it all works out for you. Don't be afraid of it. even if you blow a hole in it the size of krakatoa, you can fill it and grind it back, give it a coat of paint and noone will be any the wiser. [thumbsupbig]


Oh, for patch panels: RANGE ROVER CLASSIC (http://www.froggatts.co.uk/page32.html)
if that helps...

[350RRC]

You can buy actual footwell replacements, rather than patches, for about $70 ea plus freight.

Range Rover Classic to 1985 Body Panels - Paddock Spares (http://www.paddockspares.com/parts-and-accessories/range-rover-to-1985/body-and-panels.html)

Just scroll down past the abs panels.

cheers, DL