1986 RR Classic Amplifier and Coil test

[Scrubwa]

Hi all,

I've got a 1986 Auto 3.5l v8 Rangie Classic that has been sitting in my storage shed for 4 years and I am no trying to get it back on the road. It was working before the fuel tank taken out to fix a broken return spout and then being put on the back-burner and stuck into storage. Now, I need it, I have put the tank back in, replaced all the fuel hoses but can't get it to start. I have been through all the EFI tests and everything comes up fine until I get near the coil and amplifier.

I have a 1987 Electrical Workshop Manual which, under test 3, Amplifier Switch, states to put the voltmeter from the positive on the battery to the negative on the coil. I should get 0 volts with the ignition off, then 0 volts with the ignition on and when cranking my volts should increase. My readings are a 13v with the ignition off, 0.37 volts with the ignition on, and up to 1.7 volts whilst cranking. So, there appears to be an issue here, however, this is the 1987 Manual not the 86 one. So, my first question is whether any knows if test results should be same? Then, if so, is this indicative of a coil problem or an amplifier one?

Which leads to the question of how do I test the amplifier, which is the separate Lucas 2CE unit? Is there a way of testing this unit with the multimeter if so does someone know the test specs or point me in the right direction.

Then, with the coil, can someone point me to where I can find the specs to test the circuits of the coil with the multimeter? It is a Lucas RTC5628.

Any help greatly appreciated.

Wayne.

[Davo]

To be honest, really the best thing with Rover V8 ignition is to replace everything with the best parts you can buy. There are so many ways they can let you down it's not worth taking chances.

And welcome to the best part of the forum! [smilebigeye]

[Homestar]

Hopefully Bee Utey will see this and have a say - he's the local wizard here for all things ignition as well as a lot of other things. He's got a tuitorial here somewhere on replacing the crappy Lucas amp with a Bosch BIM024 unit which you can find on a lot of 80's model cars and can still buy new - a very worthwhile mod if you are doubting the existing amp. I'll see if I can dig up a link to that.

The 86 flapper EFI is the same as the 87, it only changed when they went to the 14CUX EFI system in 1990 I think.

Oh, and welcome to the forum. :)

[Homestar]

Here 'tis - Lucas ignition amplifier replacement by Bosch 024 (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/96950-lucas-ignition-amplifier-replacement-bosch-024-a-10.html)

A simple and worthwhile Mod even I feel you amp isn't stuffed, this will make sure it's right and stays right as these things don't die like the Lucas units do.

[bee utey]

From a cursory search it seems that your ignition amp is the one in a tin box under the coil. This is actually a Chev HEI module and is functionally the same as a Bosch BIM024, except of course the terminals are a bit different. From memory the distributor pickup plug that goes in the side of the tin box can be plugged directly onto a BIM024, except you need to trim the wide terminal next to the narrow one and fit the plug in the reverse way to the way it wants to fit. The conversion thread is here:

Lucas ignition amplifier replacement by Bosch 024 (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/96950-lucas-ignition-amplifier-replacement-bosch-024-a.html)

The Lucas coil is a dinosaur and best replaced by a used Bosch coil off a later D1 or RRC electronic ignition. These rarely fail.

[Homestar]

There you go, ask and he appears. [smilebigeye]

[Scrubwa]

Thanks all.

Bee utey, it is in the tin box under the coil. Do you know a way I can test the amplifier unit for sure? The Electronics Workshop Manual deals with the amplifier unit on the side of the distributor and nothing I have seen gives me a specific way of testing the amplifier. However, I have seen somewhere on either this user group or the English one that the amplifier unit can be tested with a multimeter via the pins.

The coil is sparking strongly but I know I can test the coil by checking the resistance of primary and secondary binding within the coil with a multimeter but I need the acceptable resistance range for coil. Does anyone know where I can find this information on the Lucas RTC 5628 coil.

Wayne.

[bee utey]

I don't have any "test procedures" for modules other than:

Connect power>>>spin distributor>>>observe monster spark>>>bewdy. Mostly I do this on the bench with the distributor removed for service or repairs, or using a spare distributor for the test of a module.

These things generally either work or they don't, with a proviso that sometimes they fail only when hot. The most common failure mode when hot is the dirty or loose connection scenario, AKA "terminal disease". Remove every connection, clean, tighten as appropriate.

Oh and testing the pickup coil in the distributor is a separate matter and can indeed be done with a mulitmeter set on resistance. See the thread for details.

Most coil failures are the breakdown of resistance in the high voltage section, a multimeter won't find those. Swapping with a known good coil is the best test.

[PhilipA]

Can I suggest that you start from the other end.

Make sure you have a fully charged battery.

Pull one plug lead off and hold it about 3mm from the spark plug top and get someone to apply the starter. Check if a spark jumps across reliably.

If no then look more closely at the ignition.

If yes pull the spark plugs and clean them. If flooded they will be wet. Suggest fit a new set of plugs.
Maybe at this stage try some Start you Bastard and if it fires , you know it is injection.

There are also many reasons for no start other than ignition such a thermo time unit not working , start injector blocked. all injectors blocked from dried out fuel. Fuel pump stuffed.
Regards Philip A

[PLR]

Hi all,



I have a 1987 Electrical Workshop Manual which, under test 3, Amplifier Switch, states to put the voltmeter from the positive on the battery to the negative on the coil. I should get 0 volts with the ignition off, then 0 volts with the ignition on and when cranking my volts should increase. My readings are a 13v with the ignition off, 0.37 volts with the ignition on, and up to 1.7 volts whilst cranking. So, there appears to be an issue here,

wayne.

G`day , ours give similar to what you have and is running it has always disagreed with the manual .

12.32 off 0.22 on and 1.19 crank

In this case i believe the manual is actually wrong .





The coil is sparking strongly

Wayne.


Is this spark from the coil lead with the engine turning over or by other means ?

If you have a normal spark as in test 1 do test 4 , if you get a spark at the rotor that is the fault .

If you have spark other than at the plugs look at the coil lead , cap , rotor etc .

The only time ours has ever lost spark at the plug leads has been a lead the cap or rotor .

It still has the same amp and coil it was born with in 1984 (although an 85 model year ) it being one of the first RR with the type ignition .

[Scrubwa]

G'Day all,

I have replaced the coil: made no difference.

I agree that it appears the manual is wrong, I have the same multimeter readings for test 3 as before.

Spark comes from the coil lead to distributor when removed from the distributor and held close to an earth (strong spark).

I have removed 3 different plugs and cranked the engine while they are out but still on the lead (all have sparked). The plugs have been cleaned and had the gap set. They were all black when removed from the engine and black again when removed after it had run a couple of times.

I have tested the throttle potentiometer, airflow sensor, coolant temperature sensor, thermo time, (etc) as per the manual and all come up tops.

Fuel is definitely getting up to the motor, there's a fuel smell quite quickly after starting to turn. The fuel pump clicks in when it is meant to as per the relay tests and the airflow and throttle poteniometer tests.

The injectors have all been removed (except the cold start injector) and individually tested. They all click and none are blocked.

A mechanic suggested I run a jumper lead from the negative on the battery to the block and see if it starts. He thought there may be a serious drop in volts when cranking. It made no difference and there is no significant drop in voltage with the battery (about 1 volt) when cranking.

I haven't tested the fuel pressure regulator. However, from my reading this keeps the pressure up when the engine is starting or running at low speed then opens to reduce pressure when the engine is revving harder. In this case, if the regulator was stuffed and not opening when the engine was running harder, the engine should start but run rich under higher revs. If the regulator was stuck open, it probably wouldn't start or if there was too little fuel, the plugs wouldn't be dark but white. Unless the regulator can cause too much pressure for start as well.

There was an aftermarket immobilizer installed: I removed it; made no difference.

The engine tries to start when it has been left sit for a while. It attempts to fire but if you keep cranking, or stop for a second then have another go, it just turns over with nothing. Leave it sit for 5 or 10 minutes and try again, it will attempt to fire again. The only times it has started (6 times now in total over a week) is after sitting for a while. However, this isn't necessarily the case after sitting over night, when the battery is at highest charge. Hence, it would not appear to be charge related, otherwise my thinking is it would fire best after sitting over night. The plugs being black and the fuel smell suggest too much fuel (thinking about this as I am writing here).

So, perhaps I better check the fuel regulator. It may be too much fuel pressure but when left sit for a while the pressure drops and the engine tries to start when first cranked but when with continued cranking the pressure builds up too much again and drives too much fuel into the system. Aerostart doesn't help, which, if it had too much fuel to start with, it wouldn't.

Keep you all informed. Thanks heaps for you thoughts and assistance. I need this f...ing vehicle going.

Wayne.

[PhilipA]

Try it after disconnecting the cold start injector which sits on the RH side back of manifold.

I know these were prone to jamming open.

Regards Philip A

[Scrubwa]

Philip,

Done that. Didn't change anything.

Wayne.

[incisor]

what about the relay near the airbox that usually turns the fuel pump on.. if that doesnt work i am sure you get the symptoms you are getting as it affects the injectors as well from memory.

had an 86 with this issue and sorting that relay fixed it, if my memory serves me correctly


if that dont fix it, it sounds like it's time to meter the ecu and pin outs as per the manual test procedure

[PhilipA]

You haven't removed the distributor cap by any chance and replaced it 180degrees out.
This is pretty easy to do.

The way to check is to put your thumb over No1 and bring up to TDC no1 with a socket and feel if the pressure increases to push your thumb off the plug hole.

If it does and the rotor is pointing to the plug lead to no1 then it is correct. Of course you could have all the leads out by one cylinder also.

If not correct then the engine may start weakly and give you the impression all is OK.

It sounds like this may be the problem as usually an engine will either not start at all or start properly unless the timing is out. Where it starts weakly sometimes it points to ign timing being out.

Regards Philip A

[bee utey]

If the fuel pressure regulator is holed it will pass neat fuel into the inlet manifold via the vacuum hose connection. Not an uncommon fault across a wide range of EFI vehicles.

[PLR]

G`day ,

as you describe it`s not an ignition problem but more like too much fuel or a lack of air .

You don`t say what stops it or how long it runs when it has started or what it runs like and if it billows black smoke etc .

More information can narrow it down and not necessarily just one fault can cause .

The fuel reg suggestion means taking the vacuum hose off and if there is any fuel found it would likely mean a hole in the diaphragm and a cause of rich running .

The cold start injector needs to be checked it`s not stuck open . Disconnecting the plug won`t stop fuel if the case .

The relay mentioned has to be a Lucas 28RA for the fuel over run and shut of to work properly some of the other relays are Bosch and interchange with each other but this one is different to them .

If the coolant temp sensor ( not sender ) is open circuit or the wires/connector etc are faulty the ECU makes the injectors open for longer than needed giving too much fuel . If the sensor is suspect a 170 Ohm resister in the connector will give hot run fueling .

Have you physically checked the flap in the airflow meter is moving easily through its arc if not it won`t allow enough air through . A back fire can twist the vane or the time sitting may impede the shaft etc .

The pipework air cleaner etc need to be checked that air can flow and that nothing has been living in it while it was 4 years idle .

Could anything you did with the tank be putting fuel where it shouldn`t be .

[Scrubwa]

Hi all,

There was no fuel in the vacuum hose from the regulator and the cold start injector tested fine. It was not stuck open, tested perfectly with the multimeter, was not powered up when cranking, operated when bench tested and allowed fuel through when open. The thermo time tested perfectly as well, as per the manual. My only observation was that the cold start injector clicked way more vigorously than the normal injectors when 12 v power was supplied. It really cracked and made the battery charger hum, whilst the others all clicked open and closed in a way more passive manner.

So, it looks like the fuel pressure test when I'm back after the weekend.

Thanks for all the input again.

Wayne.

[PLR]

Hi all,

There was no fuel in the vacuum hose from the regulator and the cold start injector tested fine. It was not stuck open, tested perfectly with the multimeter, was not powered up when cranking, operated when bench tested and allowed fuel through when open. The thermo time tested perfectly as well, as per the manual. My only observation was that the cold start injector clicked way more vigorously than the normal injectors when 12 v power was supplied. It really cracked and made the battery charger hum, whilst the others all clicked open and closed in a way more passive manner.

So, it looks like the fuel pressure test when I'm back after the weekend.

Thanks for all the input again.

Wayne.


G`day ,

the cold start may use 12V , don`t know but the 8 other run 3V through the resistor pack .

If able i`d suggest you remove all the plugs while away so any internal fuel dissipates , clean the plugs of carbon etc and start afresh