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Don 130
21st September 2017, 07:27 PM
We've heard of the bloke Jim Ratcliffe who wants to copy the Defender. Do you think it's an idea that'll fly? There are a lot of 4x4s out there already.
Discuss.

Projekt Grenadier (http://www.projektgrenadier.com)

Don

cripesamighty
21st September 2017, 07:45 PM
I'm pretty sure that Land Rover told him to get nicked and the Defender is not up for grabs, so I would be surprised if anything comes of this. Not that I wouldn't mind a Defender with the bugs ironed out of course! In that case I would happily drive a third one....

Pickles2
23rd December 2017, 08:27 AM
Projekt Grenadier (https://www.ineos.com/businesses/ineos-automotive/projektgrenadier/)

This project seems to be gathering momentum,....they've just "stolen" a very vibrant HR person from Tesla!
I originally thought that this would fade away, but that does not seem to be the case.
Lots of stuff on the net.
Pickles.

DiscoMick
23rd December 2017, 08:59 AM
Ineos is a big company so there is money behind it, but it's still only going for a limited market, so it will be interesting to see if they can reach break even point.

ramblingboy42
23rd December 2017, 04:47 PM
Is this company in cohorts with Land Rover?

I searched the website and couldn't find a single photo , illustration or composite to show what this vehicle might even look like.

One assumes its going to look like a 90 , considering they are the only photos I could find.

Unless my search was too shallow, I have no idea of it's concept.

If I missed something I'd love someone to proffer a link.

Dennis

Jojo
24th December 2017, 12:21 AM
Would be great to see this project taking off seriously! The present offerings from Solihull leave a lot to be desired IMHO. If they can sort out a decent rugged offroad vehicle and even meeting future standards there definitely will be a market. I'm in for one!

tc_s1
24th December 2017, 01:58 AM
It will be interesting to see how 'simple' can be interpreted in the modern regulatory age. Certainly this is a second age of disruption where startups have returned to the industry and likely in another 50 years maybe one or two will have crossed the chasm into longevity, but this idea has global appeal.

weeds
24th December 2017, 06:28 AM
One major problem.....they have an engineer on the team.

weeds
24th December 2017, 06:33 AM
Future standards will be the toughest for them to predict, and keeping it basic and rugged within the standards will be a challenge.

Will basic and rugged actually sell?? The new generations with tech, luxury and automation.

By the time this Is developed all us old school will be too old and or any place of interest will either have gates across the access or it will bitumen

87County
24th December 2017, 07:40 AM
You've got a point there weeds - much as it's a nice idea I'm afraid that the technology/"euro-standards" horse has bolted.

Makes me realise that as users and admirers of the old tech we're the last of this batch of dinosaurs :)

rick130
24th December 2017, 09:22 AM
One major problem.....they have an engineer on the team.Hahaha!

I've known a couple of excellent automotive engineers that worked for car manufacturers.
Actually both worked for Land Rover and banged their heads against the wall when dealing with Sollihul....

One was one of the best tig welders I've worked with, and could turn, machine, and fabricate anything.
He'd also listen.
Sometimes we wouldn't agree on a design, and as I worked for him it was done his way, but he'd happily pinch my ideas if they worked!
There was a lot of mutual respect.

rammypluge
24th December 2017, 11:00 AM
We have companies like nissan and mitsubishi and kinda land rover saying that designed for offroad isnt a big enough market, but are they factoring in the shrinking of the offerings? Patrol y61....gone, pajero.....probably going or reborn as a rebodied y62, G Wagon....crazy price, 70 series......dinosaur with issues and high price.

All we need is a dual cab ute defender that has been properly designed for off road. The dual cab market is booming. Why dont they use a cummins engine from factory?

DiscoMick
24th December 2017, 10:37 PM
Is this company in cohorts with Land Rover?

I searched the website and couldn't find a single photo , illustration or composite to show what this vehicle might even look like.

One assumes its going to look like a 90 , considering they are the only photos I could find.

Unless my search was too shallow, I have no idea of it's concept.

If I missed something I'd love someone to proffer a link.

Dennis
No, I don't believe so. Rivals. Seems like a vanity project for the Ineos guy, to me.

tc_s1
14th August 2018, 03:33 AM
No, I don't believe so. Rivals. Seems like a vanity project for the Ineos guy, to me.Vanity project perhaps, but based on this financial times article they have selected engineering services, are planning to decide engine supplier and manufacturing/assembly location by year end - Subscribe to read | Financial Times (https://www.ft.com/content/e2c61396-9bea-11e8-ab77-f854c65a4465) - will be interested to see if anything comes of it

87County
14th August 2018, 05:48 AM
I doubt that the economics of such a project would ever enable a product that would sell for a price that would attract ordinary mortals like the members of this forum.

JDNSW
14th August 2018, 04:17 PM
Yes. Engineering a vehicle to meet design rules round the world, and selling it at a competitive price if made in small numbers seem to me to be mutually exclusive, regardless of whether it is for a niche market such as we are talking about. Remember that manufacturers such as Toyota can use existing parts such as engines, gearboxes and a whole lot of other bits, that are made in far greater numbers than this niche market. They can even decide not to charge market prices for these, but only incremental cost - which certainly is not possible if you are buying in from another manufacturer.

Tins
14th August 2018, 06:16 PM
The UK has far more lenient rules for small volume car makers, such as Morgan, Caterham and Noble. People wait months or even years to get these cars. They are exempt from many of the rules the big boys have to comply with. So, yes, this may just work. It simply won't become mainstream, as the R&D costs for compliance would be in the Billions. Precisely why LR dropped the Deefer in the first place.

Pickles2
19th September 2019, 08:58 AM
I reckon this could be a goer, seems to be a few emails etc floating around since the release of the "new" Defender. Maybe Jim is more confident now, that there is space in the market for a more "utilitarian" type vehicle?
Pickles.

Red90
19th September 2019, 11:34 AM
Check out the new videos. They are saying all of the right things. Bye bye Land Rover.

prelude
20th September 2019, 03:43 PM
Indeed, they even have a suspension test mule running around with a ford bolted on top :)

What I can tell with the information given the only thing that concerns me is the fact that they will indeed need to meet some regulations, be it ncap sh... or emissions. In the latter department; we're going to get i6 BMW engines, both petrol and diesel and it will have an 8 speed box with both low and high range. I'm willing to bet that that is because of emissions the engines are going to need them.

Other than that, 3 lockers they seem to suggest as standard, live axles, light weight with a very strong roof for carrying and things like that I've seen/heard mentioned.

If this thing is anything like the best of defender, japanese and g-wagon rolled in one with a decent price tag, this might be the first NEW car I'll ever buy!

I have higher hopes for this car then what I had for the new defender before it came out but I am still cautious since an engine without electronics and emissions stuff will ruin it rather quickly seems almost impossible these days.

Cheers,
-P

prelude
20th September 2019, 03:50 PM
I just found myself typing a forum post pretty much hoping for the best on the ineos grenadier which is for all intents and purposes a spiritual successor to the defender. I just realized, after pressing submit, that this IS of course a land rover forum and not ineos. So, I was wondering, would or should the ineos get a spot on here? :)

Cheers,
-P

cripesamighty
20th September 2019, 09:01 PM
Well, we have a Non-Land Rover Vehicles section in the Pinnacles, so I donít see why a spot couldnít be found in there.

Slunnie
20th September 2019, 09:08 PM
A subsection in "NON LandRover Vehicles" do you mean?

cripesamighty
20th September 2019, 09:44 PM
It seems like the logical place to put it, especially if the car gains lots of traction and there are lots of posts.

May have to put in a Rivian and Bollinger section too! These three seem to be the trifecta of other manufacturer alternatives to the traditional Defender.

DiscoMick
21st September 2019, 07:05 AM
They're yet to be proven to match the standards of a Defender though. Do we allow inferior vehicles in here?

Sent from my A1601 using AULRO mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78345)

cripesamighty
21st September 2019, 08:05 AM
I wasnít thinking of each having its own section in the Pinnacles, or even a sub-forum like the Iveco has in Ď4WD trucksí. More like put them in the ĎAmerican manufacturedí or possibly a separate area next to the Ďtrucks, buses and campersí. Maybe call it Ďmedium sized vehiclesí or some-such if they become commonplace and have each vehicle separately in there. We still have to wait to see when/if these vehicles get off the ground to begin with though!

rick130
21st September 2019, 08:16 AM
It seems like the logical place to put it, especially if the car gains lots of traction.....

Hahaha, I see what you did there! [emoji12]

Don 130
23rd October 2019, 08:40 PM
Latest news. Looking promising

Ineos Grenadier: Brit-built Ďspiritual heirí to old Defender arrives 2021 | CAR Magazine (https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-news/first-official-pictures/ineos-projekt-grenadier-an-old-school-4x4-off-roader-for-2020/)

Don

squizzyhunter
14th December 2019, 08:23 PM
They have started building at the south Wales site. I better start saving if they get it right I will break my golden rule of never buying a new car
Bridgend site to produce Land Rover-inspired Ineos 4x4 - BBC News (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-49733291)

Don 130
19th April 2020, 08:41 PM
More latest news.

Where Is The Grenadier Built? Why We'''ve Committed To The UK (https://ineosgrenadier.com/news/4x4-to-be-built-in-wales)

Don.

Bigbjorn
20th April 2020, 08:40 AM
One major problem.....they have an engineer on the team.

Rather an engineer than an accountant in charge.

Bigbjorn
20th April 2020, 08:44 AM
Would be great to see this project taking off seriously! The present offerings from Solihull leave a lot to be desired IMHO. If they can sort out a decent rugged offroad vehicle and even meeting future standards there definitely will be a market. I'm in for one!

Land Rover no longer make rough terrain or off-road vehicles. They have morphed into a maker of luxury cars. That is where the money is. That is why every maker that once made cheap family chariots now has a "luxury" label.

rick130
20th April 2020, 05:50 PM
I hope it has longer suspension links and a beefier chassis than it appears to have in the teasers.

I know, I know, everyone's a critic. [emoji849][emoji16]

prelude
24th April 2020, 07:18 PM
Did you notice the axles are made by an italian tractor builder? ;)

In any case, still seeing good things from them. This might actually be the defender some of us wanted. My only (big) concern is with the BMW engines. BMW has not made a decent engine in years as far as I am concerned and I for one would love the ability to change it out, not that local rules allow for that.

Oh well, here's hoping... (that the economy will not tank, corona will **** of, I will still have the money to buy one, we are still allowed to travel... oh and that it will actually be a good vehicle :) )

-P

EastFreo
24th April 2020, 10:40 PM
I am following this very closely. Hope it is half as good as it is promising. If so we will buy one as our new farm Ute.

mox
3rd May 2020, 06:41 PM
Worth regularly checking progress on www.ineosgrenadier.com (http://www.ineosgrenadier.com) Also, if you sign up for news, seems you get some stuff before it appears on the website. Looks like progress has been rapid and there may be Ineos Grenadiers around next year. As it will be much more like the Land Rover Defenders we have known than the Land Rover replacement for it, maybe will become appropriate for it to be added to the list of types of vehicles discussed on aulro. Note how the Grenadier will have a box section ladder type chassis and beam axles under coil springs like the older Defender. Also, three litre 6 cylinder petrol or diesel motor. The new so called Defender with monocoque body, independent suspension and a small displacement motor which I gather has only automatic transmission available behind it may be very capable and nice while near new. Very unlikely something any "bush mechanic' would want with sort of things likely to go wrong and be difficult to fix when it gets old though. Including apparently lots of electronics.

loanrangie
3rd May 2020, 07:11 PM
So its going to be a Welsh Santana, what a frankenstein with body/chassis from Portugal, German engine, Italian diffs and who knows what else.
Cant see this being affordable for an offroader.

goingbush
4th May 2020, 05:01 PM
I haven't been following, but if that Italian tractor builder supplying the Axles is Carraro, they make the axles and diffs fo the Iveco 4x4 , the only part of the Iveco yet to give problems apart from the odd leaky oil seal early on. Phenomenally strong and based on the Dana design but the Brembo brakes that come with the axles are absolute ****.

prelude
5th June 2020, 06:08 PM
the latest vid is up.

YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACg_lDLqNs8)

Nothing much new but a tease that the car will be shown within a couple of weeks.

Cheers,
-P

DeeJay
12th June 2020, 12:18 PM
Hopefully I will need one of these to replace the ( in the distant future) ageing TD5 Defender..

YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLR5iGsc2-0)

Plenty of articles on Youtube, I'm afraid the new Defender doesn't do it for me..

EastFreo
12th June 2020, 02:52 PM
I am very keen on one.

defender replacement doesnít have a Ute and this looks the business.

goingbush
12th June 2020, 03:21 PM
I have not been across this, looks great . I wish they hadn't followed LandRover's lead with the silly wrapping paper.

I hope the Ineos turns out to be what the new Defender should have been and takes the world by storm.

prelude
12th June 2020, 07:16 PM
No doubt we will have to wait for other body types at first? Anyway I am certainly rooting for these guys because it looks like the real deal. Even Jeep are going for IFS on some of the new models I read somewhere so the only true solid axle vehicles will be:

suzuki jimny (fun thing, not useful for anything serious but they get high marks from me for doing it!)
Gelandewagen in military spec (not even a contender because of price and availability)
70 series (how long will they keep on producing that?)

Here is hoping for the best ;)

Cheers,
-P

RANDLOVER
13th June 2020, 02:12 PM
That really does look like a Defender, pro'ly why L-R tried to sue/patent the boxy design, but Ineos commissioned a poll and most people identified the shape as a "Jeep" IIRC.

goingbush
13th June 2020, 02:30 PM
That really does look like a Defender, pro'ly why L-R tried to sue/patent the boxy design, but Ineos commissioned a poll and most people identified the shape as a "Jeep" IIRC.

Absolutely , I remember a pair of LandRover owners from USA visited and I picked them up from the airport in the Defender, they were upset I didn't bring a LandRover and wondered why I came in a Jeep . They had recently bought a new Freelander. True story !

pbullen
28th June 2020, 01:42 PM
i am also watching this closely, i have DIsco3 and plan to replace it in the next 18 months, new Defender looks good but a recent video i saw on you tube about a plastic pipe grip coming loose gave me a concern, why is so much plastic used in a car that is designed to be serious off roader ? Bring it on!!!

Red90
29th June 2020, 06:43 AM
i am also watching this closely, i have DIsco3 and plan to replace it in the next 18 months, new Defender looks good but a recent video i saw on you tube about a plastic pipe grip coming loose gave me a concern, why is so much plastic used in a car that is designed to be serious off roader ? Bring it on!!!

Nothing Land Rover builds is designed to be a serious off roader.

jerryd
1st July 2020, 10:37 AM
2021 Ineos Grenadier revealed, with Australian arrival expected in 2021/2022 (https://www.whichcar.com.au/news/2021-ineos-grenadier-revealed?fbclid=IwAR106Cdt9phnDz-DhUm1hxbIL0ktjFCWaAI3AKlQlD873Y1rW_Deb8FCmoc)

[smilebigeye]

Saitch
1st July 2020, 10:54 AM
Are you going the wagon or twin cab, Jerry? Perhaps you could 'Dormobile' the wagon?[bigsmile]

Tombie
1st July 2020, 01:32 PM
Doubt it will get legs.

Will be bespoke and no cheaper than those limited build V8 Defenders that were $150k+

V8Ian
1st July 2020, 01:44 PM
Are you going the wagon or twin cab, Jerry? Perhaps you could 'Dormobile' the wagon?[bigsmile]
With a Tdi. [wink11]

Tombie
1st July 2020, 01:45 PM
With a Tdi. [wink11]

Hell no. If building something from the ground up go to Merc or similar for a far better engine.

austastar
1st July 2020, 02:15 PM
Hi,
200mm more length inside the single cab would be nice.
Cheers

SimmAus
1st July 2020, 03:51 PM
Discuss...


YouTube (https://youtu.be/4stORSTFKHE)

EastFreo
1st July 2020, 03:55 PM
I love it. This is what Land Rover should have done.

I am looking forward to seeing the Ute versions and will definitely be likely to get one.

manic
1st July 2020, 04:21 PM
Wow, it certainly looks like a defender. Looks great apart from the rear lights. Wider split rear door is an improvement for sure!

Price will be interesting. Really hope they make it.

DiscoDB
1st July 2020, 05:59 PM
Ineos Grenadier: Modern answer to Land Rover Defender on sale next year | CarAdvice (https://www.caradvice.com.au/861529/ineos-grenadier-international-first-look/)

Looks really interesting - but the bonnet makes it look like a Russian truck.

grey_ghost
1st July 2020, 06:03 PM
Ineos Grenadier: Modern answer to Land Rover Defender on sale next year | CarAdvice (https://www.caradvice.com.au/861529/ineos-grenadier-international-first-look/)

Looks really interesting - but the bonnet makes it look like a Russian truck.

Agreed - but they couldnít copy the Defender 100%

Watching the video it looks very familiar....

Interestingly I read that it only comes as an Auto... [emoji848]

spudfan
1st July 2020, 06:52 PM
I agree that the front does look like a Russian truck but it shows where Land Rover could have gone. The rear door looked like it opens in two sections. Would be disappointed if it were only optioned in auto format. I am not a fan of all of the rear lights in one unit. I would be interested in seeing the interior layout. Separate seat bases in the front are a must for me as it is a lot cheaper to change a base than a whole seat when it looses it's firmness. If it does come in more expensive than the Defender and it sells, Land Rover will rue the moment they decided their old Defender had reached the end of it development. I can utility companies buying this. Even it comes in at a higher price point than the old Defender it is bound to be less expensive than Land Rover's new offering.Also if anyway say me driving one they would assume it's a Land Rover. This shows promise as it is still early days yet.

EastFreo
1st July 2020, 08:15 PM
I am watching with real interest and keen for the dual cab. This looks exactly like what LR should have delivered.

I have seen they want to keep its price down as it needs to be affordable for its target market. I think their second last video said they canít keep to same price the last Defenders went for but are doing their best to not go far over.

Fingers crossed they deliver

Tombie
1st July 2020, 09:28 PM
Hope it flops. Laziest design team ever!

Soulless clone. Thereís a reason Merc dropped the G wagon.

The only way prices are kept down on small volume stuff like this is cheap components.

Arapiles
1st July 2020, 10:16 PM
...... they've briefed their lawyers ...... the fate of the Land Wing X7, in a Chinese court no less, is instructive:


https://www.carscoops.com/2019/03/land-rover-finally-wins-case-against-chinese-evoque-clone/

jerryd
1st July 2020, 10:53 PM
Are you going the wagon or twin cab, Jerry? Perhaps you could 'Dormobile' the wagon?[bigsmile]

[bigrolf]

Out of my price league ÖÖ progress is being made on the new motor for the Dormobile [wink11]

jplambs
1st July 2020, 11:03 PM
I am watching with real interest and keen for the dual cab. This looks exactly like what LR should have delivered.

I have seen they want to keep its price down as it needs to be affordable for its target market. I think their second last video said they canít keep to same price the last Defenders went for but are doing their best to not go far over.

Fingers crossed they deliver

Couldn't agree more, the vehicle landrover should have delivered. Looking forward to seeing if it can take the place of the defender or cruiser in the farming segment/market.

spudfan
2nd July 2020, 12:07 AM
If it's a success, JLR will buy INEOS lock, stock and barrel. !!!

prelude
2nd July 2020, 03:52 AM
If it's a success, JLR will buy INEOS lock, stock and barrel. !!!


If jimmy will sell it that is ;)

I must say, I have a few notes on the design but I like what I am seeing so far. If things keep going as they are, the P38 might be getting a much deserved retirement... No worries, she'll be fired up regularly for that wonderful V8 note :)

-P

ramblingboy42
2nd July 2020, 07:32 AM
Discuss...


YouTube (https://youtu.be/4stORSTFKHE)

why oh why do they need to put that ****ing music on with it?

butundede
2nd July 2020, 07:56 AM
With all the interest in the new Grenadier, iím wondering how the die hard, dyed in the wool Landy lovers are feeling about this new vehicle.
Considering it is being bankrolled by a Landy nut, engineered by the same company that builds the G wagen, bench marked off the 70 series, itís little wonder it has the hall marks of these boxy beasts.
I for one am excited to see a utilitarian vehicle being developed in a time when the world has gone soft. If it gives people the same feeling my 110 gives me when I drive it, then that can only be a good thing.
Lotís of comments on ďthis is what the new defender should beĒ, but iím not a marque junkie, iím a fan of vehicles with a bit of character, so iím just happy that itís being built. Land rover do comfy well nowadays, so maybe the new defender is perfect for them. I canít see anyone seriously cross shopping a ďnew DefenderĒ and the Grenadier, totally different vehicles.

Cheers, Bob

Gav 110
2nd July 2020, 08:09 AM
why oh why do they need to put that ****ing music on with it?

No music if you turn the volume down [emoji12]
I find watching TV, no sound, with my choice of music so much more enjoyable
Stops me getting stuck watching it as I donít know what their on about and only get stuck if there is a pretty lady (or Land Rover) on the screen

INEOS looks the part
If Toyota drop the v8 and go independent I suspect INEOS will take the cake[emoji106]

ramblingboy42
2nd July 2020, 08:18 AM
you may be right there.....$$$$ will also play a big part.

laney
2nd July 2020, 08:23 AM
I read on car advise that Ineos a car maker I have never heard of are making a car that looks very much like the old Defender with a 3 liter BMW engine I would of thought that Land Rover would have put some sort of protection on the Defender shape this new car at first glance you would swear was a Defender so do car makers have rights over certain iconic deigns as Harley Davision do on the sound of there motors.

goingbush
2nd July 2020, 08:31 AM
If it's a success, JLR will buy INEOS lock, stock and barrel. !!!

And then kill it off .

Like Iveco bought Santana in Spain , ran the PS10 as the Iveco Massif for 2 years then killed it off, & shut down the factory. Didn't want competition for its new Iveco Daily 4x4

TBH I could not give a toss if JLR fails , they have totally lost my respect, TATA will probably unload JLR & take INEOS under its wing , makes more sense.

I wish INEOS all the success in the world, Im loving the Grenadier, not keen on BMW power plant though, If they produce an Electric version I will buy it.

veebs
2nd July 2020, 09:52 AM
INEOS Grenadier - The covers are off.​

It’s function over... (https://www.facebook.com/INEOSGrenadier/videos/647327075852685/)

Their approach is pretty cool on this, and love the commentary around this being the basic, super capable machine, intended to be adapted to personal preference. I have done little more than change to AT tyres on my beast, but I certainly have an appreciation for those that do a little more :)

Red90
2nd July 2020, 10:34 AM
If it's a success, JLR will buy INEOS lock, stock and barrel. !!!

More like the other way around. Land Rover is a dying pig. Ineos is a much bigger and a profitable company.

Homestar
2nd July 2020, 12:01 PM
There have been copies of the Deefer before so guessing LR donít care too much.

The new Grenadier will be interesting and great if it has the Beemer 3l in it.


Exterior Design (https://ineosgrenadier.com/reveal/exterior-design?gclid=Cj0KCQjw6PD3BRDPARIsAN8pHuGd0r-D3eMFPRzzRpD2qcQV5WgI-vxNAlQtiUCJfYv2I1xHSgdxMMwaAs4UEALw_wcB)

superquag
2nd July 2020, 12:15 PM
IVECO had the Massif, which was a re-badged Santana PS-10 - a square, slab-sided boxy practical thing. Land Rover got The Shape correct, right from the get-go. For practical use it's perfect. Give credit where it's due. [smilebigeye]

I can't see how JLR could prevent anyone making 'distant relative' / boxy likeness, if they could they'd have spiked the Mercedes 'box' And earlier Pajeros, and a few others.
(I had a Gen 1/NG turbo-diesel, nice BIG back door so would fit a pallet in the back which I don't think the latest LR "thing" can manage.)

IMHO, JLR have lost the plot for the 'real 4WD-AWD' end of the market.

Imagine how well they'd go if the Grenadier was strong enough to cope with a mine-site. - According to #1 FIFO Son, nothing lasts up in the NW, even trucks eventually ratttle to bits.

superquag
2nd July 2020, 12:22 PM
There have been copies of the Deefer before so guessing LR donít care too much.

The new Grenadier will be interesting and great if it has the Beemer 3l in it.


Exterior Design (https://ineosgrenadier.com/reveal/exterior-design?gclid=Cj0KCQjw6PD3BRDPARIsAN8pHuGd0r-D3eMFPRzzRpD2qcQV5WgI-vxNAlQtiUCJfYv2I1xHSgdxMMwaAs4UEALw_wcB)

However, no-one has managed to keep the interior rain like the Genuine Article, even through successive face-lifts /models. ! [bigwhistle][bigsad][bigwhistle]

On a sober note... 'who discovered the cause and cure? - This Forum or did LR or some random owner ? Sealing and design of the cabin HVAC air intake, was it ???

JDNSW
2nd July 2020, 01:39 PM
I read on car advise that Ineos a car maker I have never heard of are making a car that looks very much like the old Defender with a 3 liter BMW engine I would of thought that Land Rover would have put some sort of protection on the Defender shape this new car at first glance you would swear was a Defender so do car makers have rights over certain iconic deigns as Harley Davision do on the sound of there motors.

The Landrover shape has been widely copied in the past - Austin Gypsy, Datsun Patrol, to mention a couple, not to mention licence built variants including Santana, Tempo, Minerva plus the Iranian one I can never remember the name of, without complaints about the shape.

And INEOS is a privately held chemical company, which is why you have not heard of the car maker! The owner is Jim Ratcliffe, described as the richest man in the UK, but 'publicity shy'.

JDNSW
2nd July 2020, 01:48 PM
More like the other way around. Land Rover is a dying pig. Ineos is a much bigger and a profitable company.

Exactly - but they don't make cars. Be interesting to see if they are still profitable once they are making cars!

At the moment I doubt very much whether Jim Ratcliffe is interested in selling the company - or whether Landrover (or Tata) could afford it if he were.

Nick S
2nd July 2020, 02:09 PM
Well I hope it is a huge success and sticks it up JLR. If the reports and price are good Iíd seriously consider the twin cab.

bnicho
2nd July 2020, 04:59 PM
I read on car advise that Ineos a car maker I have never heard of are making a car that looks very much like the old Defender with a 3 liter BMW engine I would of thought that Land Rover would have put some sort of protection on the Defender shape this new car at first glance you would swear was a Defender so do car makers have rights over certain iconic deigns as Harley Davision do on the sound of there motors.

Land Rover already had a shot at Ineos in court over the shape and Land Rover lost.

prelude
2nd July 2020, 05:40 PM
So, I had a nice sleep over it...

The shape, I don't mind that it looks like a defender a bit. or G wagon, or, or, or... I like that shape anyways being a kid in the eighties where everything was squared :)

points I have noted so far:



It's really hard to read but I think the tyre size on that clay model is 265/70R17 so no 16" wheels. I guess that is ok but I would have preferred them. Again just a guess but it has to do with the brakes no doubt. Then again, maybe it was just for show
the driveline parts look more like nissans pootrol in terms of size and hopefully strength, arguably the strongest on any 4bee (from factory, back in the solid front axle days)
same goes for the various rods and what not
the dual barn doors are differently sized and the total opening wider than the deefers. More total loading opening, less door to open for just a toolbag or smth.
the doors extend to the roof, like a van. For people who want to modify this vehicle as an overland truck (I would be one of them) a pop-top roof might be difficult so I see it as a mixed blessing / curse.
the design of the front makes the car look slightly bug eyed. Since this is not the final, final design I guess that can still be fixed.
the rear lights... I have not made my mind up yet. Suffice it to say that I am not immediately enamoured
the optional protection rails on the side, covering the door handles, you could buy for the deefer are standard here it seems
bmw 6 in line engines (both petrol and diesel). 6 in line is the smoothest engine design you can get, except for a V12 maybe. Good choice
bmw engines. Have not been on top of their game since the late 90's. bad choice, but I guess that is a problem with nearly all manufacturers because "environment" so I am not sure what they should have gone with.
8 speed gear box, power when and where you need it, more shifting. I guess the old "low range second gear" trope will become "low range 4th gear"
complexity will be higher due to the last few points above.


They suggest a retail price of around 30K gbp which I think would be reasonable.

According to this bloke they are already talking to NGO's directly to check what the market wants so if they succeed and ngo's start driving these rigs, that would be quite something and would also help in adoption of parts and what not abroad.

YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjGTeAeDORo)

He has some good points about the electronics (like limiting vehicle speeds and gears and so on) that will not apply to most of us but will be of interest to fleet owners and thus is good for us in the long run. He also makes some good suggestions (as well as some far out unrealistic ones) but I think that most of those suggestions are a bit too late to be taken into account seeing as the car is pretty far along in the design process. However, here is hoping...

I'll be patiently waiting to see what comes out of ineos the coming years. It seems that my world travel plans are hampered by this bloody corona crap anyway so I have time to watch this unfold ;)

Cheers,
-P

Arapiles
2nd July 2020, 05:44 PM
I read on car advise that Ineos a car maker I have never heard of are making a car that looks very much like the old Defender with a 3 liter BMW engine I would of thought that Land Rover would have put some sort of protection on the Defender shape this new car at first glance you would swear was a Defender so do car makers have rights over certain iconic deigns as Harley Davision do on the sound of there motors.

If it makes it into production they'll almost certainly be sued by JLR for how closely it resembles the Defender.

INter674
2nd July 2020, 05:57 PM
If it makes it into production they'll almost certainly be sued by JLR for how closely it resembles the Defender.

Mmm could be interesting since LR based their design on a Jeep. I doubt they would bother. Rather if it succeeds they'll buy them out☺

RANDLOVER
2nd July 2020, 06:15 PM
I was about to say the tailgate is too small but I think it is a two piece. Maybe I should keep watching the vid and all will be revealed?

spudfan
2nd July 2020, 06:19 PM
Having seen the double cab side on in the graphic, I noticed that the rear side door is full size. Some crewcabs over here have smaller rear side doors and the bench seat has very little leg room for passengers. It is more or less a token gesture. Given the full sized door on the GRENADIER you would assume (hope) that the leg room inside for the rear passengers is the same as the station wagon versions.
Even though it has two opening doors on the back given wider access than the old Defender, don't forget that when you are in the back there will be wheel arch intrusion.
I am not a fan of multifunction single lights as on the rear of the GRENADIER. This is because I have noticed one function blocks you seeing another clearly. This is from personal experience either following cars with multifunction rear lights or meeting them at junctions.
Regarding the choice of the BMW engine. I was not overly enamoured when I saw this. There has been some trouble over here with some BMW power plants with owners having a real fight on their hands with dealers/BMW who deny their is a problem. I cannot remember the exact problem but it was fairly common but meeting with official denials. You know the story, or variants of it.
I could not see the diffs or prop shafts in any photos I have seen. It is early days yet but I wish JLR had put the same energy and enthusiasm into keeping the Defender going.
JLR/Gerry seem to have a mind set that a full on commercial/utility variant demeans the marque. Thus they have exited a market segment that could guarantee sales in these difficult times.

Arapiles
2nd July 2020, 06:48 PM
Land Rover already had a shot at Ineos in court over the shape and Land Rover lost.


Kind of .... it was a trade mark application, which JLR lost after Ineos challenged it, and JLR then announced that they would appeal to the UK High Court.

The decision is on the internet:

https://www.ipo.gov.uk/t-challenge-decision-results/o58919.pdf

It's pretty technical stuff and not related at all to whether the Grenadier is a copy of the Defender. Because that wasn't the issue that was argued about.

So, I think that it's still an issue as to whether the Grenadier itself would be so similar to the Defender that JLR could block it.

Tombie
2nd July 2020, 06:49 PM
Similar looks, similar engine (Merc)
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200702/5c13f5c216ea77dc2a4e651fe2616e09.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200702/e9be84596da66b005c46b09ffea21f24.jpg

JDNSW
2nd July 2020, 07:27 PM
A friend of mine asked me about the Grenadier a couple of days ago. He has been looking for something since his 300Tdi got more or less driven into the ground by one of his employees. He had to replace one of his Landrovers anyway by something that meets mining company's safety standards. Presumably the Grenadier would? He ended up getting a dual cab of some kind, I can't remember which one. Part of his problem was finding a manual transmission which did not take too much effort to operate at a constant speed on rough ground. He finds his TD5 ideal for that.

ozscott
2nd July 2020, 09:02 PM
Similar looks, similar engine (Merc)
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200702/5c13f5c216ea77dc2a4e651fe2616e09.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200702/e9be84596da66b005c46b09ffea21f24.jpg[emoji1787][emoji1787]. Both as ugly as each other.

Cheers

Tombie
2nd July 2020, 10:07 PM
A friend of mine asked me about the Grenadier a couple of days ago. He has been looking for something since his 300Tdi got more or less driven into the ground by one of his employees. He had to replace one of his Landrovers anyway by something that meets mining company's safety standards. Presumably the Grenadier would? He ended up getting a dual cab of some kind, I can't remember which one. Part of his problem was finding a manual transmission which did not take too much effort to operate at a constant speed on rough ground. He finds his TD5 ideal for that.

It will need to be full 5 star to be mine spec.

W&KO
2nd July 2020, 10:24 PM
It will need to be full 5 star to be mine spec.

All depends on the mining company.

We have no requirement for ancap rating.....

Arapiles
2nd July 2020, 11:44 PM
It will need to be full 5 star to be mine spec.

It's not going to be 5 star:


The Ineos Grenadier ..... will protect occupants in a crash, but will fall short of a five-star result due to a lack of advanced safety aids and a focus on heavy-duty hardware, the company says.


Ineos Grenadier won't have five-star safety | CarAdvice (https://www.caradvice.com.au/862255/ineos-grenadier-wont-have-five-star-safety/)


ďSo, we will not have a five-star rating but we will have a vehicle that crashes very well and rolls very well. And if you want to roll well, and donít Ďexplodeí, you will have to have compromises in other features,Ē Heilmann opined.

No five-star safety rating for INEOS Grenadier - www.carsales.com.au (https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/no-five-star-safety-rating-for-ineos-grenadier-124969/)

Arapiles
2nd July 2020, 11:46 PM
FT thinks that the paint quality is going to be an issue .... along with a number of other things ....

Red90
3rd July 2020, 06:08 AM
FT thinks that the paint quality is going to be an issue .... along with a number of other things ....

What??? You realize we are looking at a clay model and computer rendering?

Tombie
3rd July 2020, 06:48 AM
All depends on the mining company.

We have no requirement for ancap rating.....

True. If you want to supply the big players in Aus though it will be AC5.

RioT
BHP
FMG

All require it - and are the volume customers.

RT and BHP are the prime reason Toyota fitted SRS into the 7x Series and updated the Hilux.

Red90
3rd July 2020, 07:23 AM
Hiluxes have advanced safety aids? That mean auto braking and accident avoidance.

These would be really useless on a mine site.

one_iota
3rd July 2020, 07:31 AM
The latest:

YouTube (https://youtu.be/yZVYpdoqFow)
and
YouTube (https://youtu.be/bUSUAdPpr14)

Ring any bells?

grey_ghost
3rd July 2020, 10:06 AM
I am following this with interest, and I think that it looks great (apart from the tail lights), and it sounds like it's a great design.

BUT

I have read that at release - it's only being sold as an automatic... (Hardly a direct Defender replacement)

And the starting price is $80k... (Hardly a direct Defender replacement)

For the people that have said that it will be a cheap vehicle, in my eyes $80k isn't.

I still like the look of it, and will keep an eye on it - but it's not "cheap".

Cheers,
GG.

Red90
3rd July 2020, 10:49 AM
The price is not known yet. It is unlikely to be that high.

It is not set in stone that there wonít be a manual.

Relax. Sit down. Wait for real information.

grey_ghost
3rd July 2020, 11:56 AM
Red90 - I am happy to have a bet with you on the price... How about a slab of beer? [thumbsupbig]

Tombie
3rd July 2020, 12:00 PM
The price is not known yet. It is unlikely to be that high.

It is not set in stone that there wonít be a manual.

Relax. Sit down. Wait for real information.

Owner/Designer stated in one of the interviews its aiming to be around the UK 40k pound mark. In AU that's $80k+ without trying. Add LCT, freight etc and it will be $100k.

And LR owners complain about lack of service / parts centers in AU now. [biggrin]

russellrovers
3rd July 2020, 01:46 PM
Nothing Land Rover builds is designed to be a serious off roader.hi who will the dealers be in oz who will sell these jim

SBD4
3rd July 2020, 05:10 PM
https://youtu.be/bUSUAdPpr14

Arapiles
3rd July 2020, 05:43 PM
What??? You realize we are looking at a clay model and computer rendering?

Yes, I realise that - the issue that the Financial Times were referring to was that the panels are going to be painted in Portugal - where the chassis and bodies are actually being made - and then shipped to Wales to be screwed together. They were saying that it's hard to protect paint that's being shipped around. My experience with a car that had prepainted panels was that you also get inconsistencies in the colour due to slightly different batches and different ages of the panels, as one panel may have been painted weeks before the panel next to it.

It's an interesting article that's worth a read, but the FT doesn't permit links.

SBD4
3rd July 2020, 05:55 PM
Instead of the above vid I posted, it's probably best just to refer to the Ineos Automotive youtube channel:


YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCkUPNBqPbOYuanFuh1RDfLw/videos)

Arapiles
3rd July 2020, 06:11 PM
True. If you want to supply the big players in Aus though it will be AC5.

RioT
BHP
FMG

All require it - and are the volume customers.

RT and BHP are the prime reason Toyota fitted SRS into the 7x Series and updated the Hilux.


More pointedly, with the 70 series, Toyota only fitted curtain airbags to the single cab model, because that's the one that the mines buy (all models have driver and passenger airbags).

So, yes, without 5 stars the Grenadier's not going to get any sales from the mining companies.

scarry
3rd July 2020, 07:18 PM
More pointedly, with the 70 series, Toyota only fitted curtain airbags to the single cab model, because that's the one that the mines buy (all models have driver and passenger airbags).

So, yes, without 5 stars the Grenadier's not going to get any sales from the mining companies.

To get the 5 star,the single cab model also had a few other mods under the skin.

As time goes on,it will be very difficult for vehicles built like the Grenadier to get a 5 star rating.This won't help sales.

In fact many vehicles that were rated in Aus,as 5 star,in the last few years,as an example,more than likely won't be 5 star if tested in 2020.

DiscoDB
5th July 2020, 09:17 PM
Given they are only planning to produce 25000 a year - I donít think Australian mining company requirements are a high priority. Their sales targets are primarily North America and UK/Europe (like the Defender but with lower volumes / higher profit margins).

With pricing similar to the Defender it may backfire and make people see the better value with the real LR.

But it does look good (despite the Russian looking G wagon bonnet). Would be great to be a billionaire able to pursue anything your want.

rick130
6th July 2020, 08:36 AM
FWIW the maximum annual Deefer production was 25,000 as that maxed out the line.
So much hand labour involved in assembling the old girl.

ozscott
6th July 2020, 09:53 AM
I suspect it will be a fantastic vehicle and will be significantly better offroad than anything in the LR stable. And quite liveable onroad (more so than the Defender (ie not the new Defender). BUT, while the components themselves look to be very good - well sourced and built - the concern I would have is backup. Arguably the engines could be serviced and troubleshot by BMW dealerships, but i do wonder about whether they would be keen unless it was a full BMW engine and BCU harness used for example.

I am excited to see this vehicle. At present I am very happy with the comfort, load carrying ability and general ability of the new MR Triton (with canopy) but I do really like the sound of this new beastie. Having said that it would want to be very good and with good backup at close to double what the top spec Triton costs (I am talking Triton because whilst I still love my D2 I am not in the market for anything new that LR is offering up).

Cheers

bob10
8th July 2020, 03:36 PM
The 4x4 Land Rover should have built, reportedly a 130 variant with a V6 engine.

Unsealed 4X4 | All-new INEOS Grenadier 4x4 wagon and ute here soon from around $80k! (https://www.unsealed4x4.com.au/all-new-ineos-grenadier-4x4-wagon-and-ute-here-soon-from-around-80k/?utm_source=ActiveCampaign&utm_medium=email&utm_content=All-new+INEOS+Grenadier+4x4+wagon+and+ute+here+soon+fr om+around+%2480k%21&utm_campaign=Unsealed+4X4+EDM+-+6th+July+2020)

Building the Grenadier.

YouTube (https://youtu.be/bUSUAdPpr14)

grey_ghost
8th July 2020, 05:15 PM
Eric Pearce with the late night news....

4runnernomore
8th July 2020, 06:00 PM
Looks like Ineos are in consultation with Daimler to to now build the Grenadier at Hambarg Eastern France now in place of Portugal and wales. YouTube (https://youtu.be/chXpMexyfJo). Appariently it is to speed up production due to setbacks due to Covid.

Interesting to see what occurs from this.

Cheers, Chris

354 chamberlain
10th July 2020, 10:07 AM
I would be very interested in purchasing one as the will be available as a cab chassis and SWB as well as other body styles To me the cab chassis option is great and I could retire my old series 2A . The new defender never really appealed to me because that option was not available and I already have a discovery , and said from the release of the new defender that it will only be competing with the discovery as a more basic cheaper option (but not cheap) . Nothing wrong with the discovery and I have removed all of the back seats to make it into e reasonable work vehicle but it is definitely not suitable for carting sheep ,especially the dead ones . I have just read an article in the Weekly Times and it says that INEOS are still developing the BMW engine to suit the vehicle so that it will be a high torque low revving engine which is exactly what is needed in a good off road vehicle

101RRS
10th July 2020, 10:16 AM
So how many of these have been built to date?

loanrangie
10th July 2020, 10:28 AM
So how many of these have been built to date?

Probably just a few prototypes or test mules.

101RRS
10th July 2020, 11:09 AM
Ok - so nothing to get excited about at this stage - many great ideas and prototypes amount to nothing - haven't heard from Rivian for a while now.

loanrangie
10th July 2020, 02:23 PM
A lot of smoke and mirrors thus far, i don't believe all will come to fruition. A big ask to start up vehicle manufacturing from scratch.

ozscott
10th July 2020, 05:46 PM
I thought the smoke and mirrors was the new Defender ? [emoji23][emoji23]

scarry
10th July 2020, 08:25 PM
I thought the smoke and mirrors was the new Defender ? [emoji23][emoji23]

It might get here before the new defender,then who knows,it might outsell it...[tonguewink]

As others have said,and I tend to agree,it is very difficult for small vehicle manufacturers to survive these days.

loanrangie
11th July 2020, 08:48 AM
Its already in private hands, ineos is barely pipe dream.
I thought the smoke and mirrors was the new Defender ? [emoji23][emoji23]

rick130
11th July 2020, 08:57 AM
Ok - so nothing to get excited about at this stage - many great ideas and prototypes amount to nothing - haven't heard from Rivian for a while now.Ask and ye shall receive...[emoji23]

Tesla rival Rivian adds $2.5 billion investment led by T. Rowe Price - Reuters (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-rivian-funding/tesla-rival-rivian-adds-2-5-billion-investment-led-by-t-rowe-price-idUSKBN24B1UL)

Red90
11th July 2020, 09:09 AM
A lot of smoke and mirrors thus far, i don't believe all will come to fruition. A big ask to start up vehicle manufacturing from scratch.

Not really. They are using Magna Steyr to do the engineering. They design and built lots of cars for lot of manufacturers. Their plant does 200000 cars a year. Ineos is not doing it from scratch. They are using world class companies to do the work.

Ratcliffe is self made to one of the richest people around. You do not do that by not knowing how to succeed.

ozscott
11th July 2020, 09:11 AM
Its already in private hands, ineos is barely pipe dream.I was referring to its introduction and marketing campaign versus what it had delivered in the Defender name...so yep.smoke and mirrors. Not saying its not a very good IRS IFS vehicle though.

Cheers

loanrangie
11th July 2020, 12:43 PM
Not really. They are using Magna Steyr to do the engineering. They design and built lots of cars for lot of manufacturers. Their plant does 200000 cars a year. Ineos is not doing it from scratch. They are using world class companies to do the work.

Ratcliffe is self made to one of the richest people around. You do not do that by not knowing how to succeed.

Still a niche vehicle with a small market so effectively from scratch since Ineos has never released a vehicle prior.

Slunnie
11th July 2020, 07:45 PM
For a good ol' triggering from Andrew St Pierre White! Here is a review on the Grenadier from the knuckle dragger. I admit, I couldn't tolerate him for more than a few minutes.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wicvbE1jy0Q

rick130
12th July 2020, 02:09 AM
For a good ol' triggering from Andrew St Pierre White! Here is a review on the Grenadier from the knuckle dragger. I admit, I couldn't tolerate him for more than a few minutes.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wicvbE1jy0QYou did better than I could manage! [emoji23]

ramblingboy42
12th July 2020, 08:22 AM
It sounds to me like the Grenadier might be the vehicle a lot of people have been looking for.

If , as it appears to indicate , everything they produce is sold , it doesn't really matter how many they make , as marketing and production experts cost the vehicle out.

They are not competing against a market, it appears they have their market and other manufacturers may need to compete against the Grenadier.

Land Rover don't really have the market and they are already trying to set their markets.....already their ordering system is as complex as the vehicle.

I think if the Grenadier can move forward to it's projected build dates it is going to scare Land Rover something fierce.

scarry
12th July 2020, 10:10 AM
It sounds to me like the Grenadier might be the vehicle a lot of people have been looking for.

If , as it appears to indicate , everything they produce is sold , it doesn't really matter how many they make , as marketing and production experts cost the vehicle out.

They are not competing against a market, it appears they have their market and other manufacturers may need to compete against the Grenadier.

Land Rover don't really have the market and they are already trying to set their markets.....already their ordering system is as complex as the vehicle.

I think if the Grenadier can move forward to it's projected build dates it is going to scare Land Rover something fierce.

LR wonít be worried at all,itís basically in a market they donít want,and have moved on from it.

The 70 series is more the market,but no doubt it will just soldier on,leading that section of the market,as it has for many years,in many different countries.

The challenge for the Grenadier is to be a vehicle that people want,donít complicate it too much, have great reliability,with minimal maintenance costs,and good off road ability.

Gav 110
10th August 2020, 04:38 PM
One step closer

Unsealed 4X4 | Grenadier gets green light as Land Rover loses in court (https://www.unsealed4x4.com.au/grenadier-gets-green-light-as-land-rover-loses-in-court/?utm_source=ActiveCampaign&utm_medium=email&utm_content=Grenadier+gets+green+light+as+Land+rov er+loses+in+court&utm_campaign=Unsealed+4X4+EDM+-+10th+August+2020)

Parker
13th August 2020, 09:34 AM
What an exciting project. I just watched 'Reveal 5'. They are serious. Looks good, ticks the boxes of what we like about our Defenders, it will work, more than likely be much more reliable. What's not to like? I'm excited and for the first time I am thinking that buying a new 4WD would be the right thing to do. Parts? This is the 21st century and everything is here in 48hrs (give or take). Will the engine bay be tighter than my TD5? Likely not.

grey_ghost
14th August 2020, 07:34 AM
I just watched episode 5 also - and the main points for me were:

* BMW 3 ltr engine (diesel & petrol) - yes, we knew that.
* Auto only
* Hi-Low transfer case
* Rear diff lock
* Testing to be done all around the world, but they mention Australia & New Zealand
* They are building 100 vehicles to do a year of testing

So - it's a little way off, but they are at least considering OZ/NZ..

Hopefully the price is okay.

Cheers,
GG.

Red90
14th August 2020, 10:33 PM
They did not talk about the axle lockers. They were talking about the transfer case diff lock being manually actuated along with the range selector. The box appears to be a similar design to the LT230.

As far as axle diff locks they previously stated they will be optional front and rear.

Tote
25th November 2020, 12:08 PM
Looks like there may be a hydrogen power option in the future as well.

Ineos and Hyundai join forces on hydrogen, Grenadier targeted | Drive (https://www.drive.com.au/news/ineos-and-hyundai-join-forces-on-hydrogen-grenadier-targeted-124625.html?trackLink=SMH0)

Regards,
Tote

PhilipA
25th November 2020, 05:31 PM
I reckon the concept is far superior to the New Defender.
It probably will not sell as well as the World is a different place now to 20 years ago, with much more bitumen and made roads. Most Defenders will be bought as "Toorak Tractors" for profiling purposes.
IMHO they will also cannibalise D5 sales as it appears the market does not like the styling of the D5.
Given the choice at similar price levels my choice would be a Grenadier. As long as they get quality better than Defender.

Regards PhilipA

simonmelb
26th November 2020, 09:54 AM
This design looks really really really good.

The main value I see compared with the way LR is going is where there is a simpler non computer, non electronic way of engineering something they have taken this path - eg extra links in the front suspension with coils to provide good articulation and load carrying compared with compared with LR computer controlled air suspension.

LR have built in so many points of failure with their new designs and clearly are no longer to able to simulate all the ways things can go wrong - hence the problems they're having with D5's and new Defenders that they cannot solve.

Love the elegant modern simplicity of this vehicle !

Tombie
26th November 2020, 11:43 AM
There is nothing simple in the Gren...

Itís going to be a very expensive ďdesirableĒ for those with the money and the want of memory of designs from times now gone.

Itís still highly electronic, completely unproven, and itís only claim to fame is a recognisable shape.

In all reality it is a bigger fraud of a Defender than those complaining about the new model being ďnot a DefenderĒ.

Tote
26th November 2020, 12:51 PM
There is nothing simple in the Gren...

Itís going to be a very expensive ďdesirableĒ for those with the money and the want of memory of designs from times now gone.

Itís still highly electronic, completely unproven, and itís only claim to fame is a recognisable shape.

In all reality it is a bigger fraud of a Defender than those complaining about the new model being ďnot a DefenderĒ.

Now if only Land Rover would dip their toe back in the commercial vehicle (cab chassis) market I might be tempted by a new Defender, alas it does not look likely.
Regards,
Tote

Tombie
27th November 2020, 12:51 PM
Now if only Land Rover would dip their toe back in the commercial vehicle (cab chassis) market I might be tempted by a new Defender, alas it does not look likely.
Regards,
Tote

Market is saturated. No money to be made competing.

Harsh reality but very real. Even the 7x utes are looking to wind up as they arenít competitive.

Tote
27th November 2020, 01:05 PM
Market is saturated. No money to be made competing.

Harsh reality but very real. Even the 7x utes are looking to wind up as they arenít competitive.

As you said the competition is already too great with Isuzu/Mazda and Ford/VW badge engineering already as well as Ram trucks further cannibalising the market (in Aus anyway). It's still a shame that we wont see a vehicle emerge from Land Rover that is as far ahead of the market as the Defender was in 1988.

Regards,
Tote

ATH
9th December 2020, 08:18 PM
I read the new Defender look alike Grenadier is now being built in France near the German border. Apparently the billionaire owner who doesn't live in the UK but Monaco but who had expressed his faith in UK based workforce for his new baby, bought a disused ex Merc car factory and decided to abandon all previous plans and build it there instead.
Made better economic sense for his bank account apparently.
AlanH.

Tombie
9th December 2020, 09:12 PM
Thatís because as it evolves itís becoming increasingly more complex and expensive.

ATH
10th December 2020, 09:36 AM
Too complicated by far much the same as most cars these days especially those supposedly for going to remote places. Too expensive as well. I'll stick with the D4 despite some misgivings when I read about what could go wrong. :)
AlanH.

bob10
11th December 2020, 06:34 PM
I read the new Defender look alike Grenadier is now being built in France near the German border. Apparently the billionaire owner who doesn't live in the UK but Monaco but who had expressed his faith in UK based workforce for his new baby, bought a disused ex Merc car factory and decided to abandon all previous plans and build it there instead.
Made better economic sense for his bank account apparently.
AlanH.

This may explain it. And don't forget a no deal Brexit is on the cards.

Pat Callinan's 4X4 Adventures | The Essence of 4X4 Adventure - Ineos acquires French production plant to build Grenadier (mr4x4.com.au) (https://mr4x4.com.au/ineos-acquires-german-production-plant-to-build-grenadier/?utm_source=ActiveCampaign&utm_medium=email&utm_content=The+new+ARB+Slide+Kitchen+that+we+all+ need+in+our+life%21&utm_campaign=PC+Newsletter+%23339)

ATH
11th December 2020, 08:44 PM
That could cause more than a few problems for many people and industry Bob10. But the EU daren't be seen as letting the UK leave without punishment or easily as it may just encourage others to do the same although as most seem to be nett receivers of taxpayer largesse, I doubt that'll happen. :)
AlanH.

bob10
11th December 2020, 08:53 PM
That could cause more than a few problems for many people and industry Bob10. But the EU daren't be seen as letting the UK leave without punishment or easily as it may just encourage others to do the same although as most seem to be nett receivers of taxpayer largesse, I doubt that'll happen. :)
AlanH.

Yeah, it's a can of worms alright. One thing I haven't seen with the Grenadier is the price. Do you have news on that? cheers.

ATH
12th December 2020, 09:13 AM
North of 100K I believe Bob10. Although that may include our special taxes like LCT. New Defender much the same, our pricing appears to start where others finish. I'll be keeping the D4 until the Cook says otherwise. :)
AlanH.

bob10
12th December 2020, 09:29 AM
North of 100K I believe Bob10. Although that may include our special taxes like LCT. New Defender much the same, our pricing appears to start where others finish. I'll be keeping the D4 until the Cook says otherwise. :)
AlanH.

Those prices are out of reach of most. I'm guessing that in the future diesel driven vehicles will be phased out in favour of EV's. That might work in Europe, but in our wide brown land .....can't see it really.

Saitch
12th December 2020, 10:08 AM
I think it will flop, here in Oz, on several counts.

Namely, No bullbar with numerous spotties , a 1.5 metre long light bar and 12T winch attached.
No second 1.5 metre long light bar, fluro handled shovel, orange Max Traxx and a kangaroo jack strapped to a roof rack.
No 6' lift with brightly coloured shocks and Mud Terrain 35" tyres.
No twin spare tyres with, 'Made for Mud' wheel covers, mounted on the rear door.
No RM Williams Longhorn sticker across the windscreen.

Going by the vehicle's photos and what I've noticed in the last decade or so, it just won't be capable enough for traversing our shopping centres, bottlos and school drop off/pick up landscapes, here in Australia.

V8Ian
12th December 2020, 10:27 AM
I think it will flop, here in Oz, on several counts.

Namely, No bullbar with numerous spotties , a 1.5 metre long light bar and 12T winch attached.
No second 1.5 metre long light bar, fluro handled shovel, orange Max Traxx and a kangaroo jack strapped to a roof rack.
No 6' lift with brightly coloured shocks and Mud Terrain 35" tyres.
No twin spare tyres with, 'Made for Mud' wheel covers, mounted on the rear door.
No RM Williams Longhorn sticker across the windscreen.

Going by the vehicle's photos and what I've noticed in the last decade or so, it just won't be capable enough for traversing our shopping centres, bottlos and school drop off/pick up landscapes, here in Australia.
[biggrin] Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. [wink11]

PhilipA
12th December 2020, 11:03 AM
You forgot that all potential owners will have to have beards.
And beards with food stains.
They will have to have multi tools or swiss army knives on their belts and always wear long pants.
They will have to drive with their elbow out the window.
They will have a limp from long years with a handbrake digging into their calf.
Regards PhilipA

Saitch
12th December 2020, 12:36 PM
[biggrin] Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. [wink11]

Oh, I omitted the roof top rent.[smilebigeye]

Tombie
12th December 2020, 12:57 PM
[biggrin] Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. [wink11]

We have a plethora with only half a wit so no issues [emoji48]

Tombie
12th December 2020, 12:57 PM
Oh, I omitted the roof top rent.[smilebigeye]

And it will all have to be Kings branded.

V8Ian
12th December 2020, 01:05 PM
Oh, I omitted the roof top rent.[smilebigeye]


And it will all have to be Kings branded.
Ohh, low blow. You blokes can cut to the quick. [bawl]

rick130
12th December 2020, 01:09 PM
You forgot that all potential owners will have to have beards.
And beards with food stains.
They will have to have multi tools or swiss army knives on their belts and always wear long pants.
They will have to drive with their elbow out the window.
They will have a limp from long years with a handbrake digging into their calf.
Regards PhilipAThis is why I had to finally part with my Deefer.
No beard, I only drink piccolo lattes or espresso shots and dress far, far too well for a shed on wheels. [emoji16]
But I always drove with my elbow out the window, too broad of shoulder to do otherwise. [emoji23]

rick130
12th December 2020, 01:11 PM
Oh, I omitted the roof top rent.[smilebigeye]
And it will all have to be Kings branded.Whew, the tent on top of the Disco is an Austrack Campers tent. [emoji56][emoji23]

gromit
12th December 2020, 04:11 PM
Now it's going to be made in France !

Sir Jim Ratcllffe ditches plan to build 4X4 in Wales in favour of French factory | This is Money (https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-9031209/Sir-Jim-Ratcllffe-ditches-plan-build-4X4-Wales-favour-French-factory.html)


Colin

aussearcher
12th December 2020, 07:16 PM
Well, it already has a French name...

Tote
17th February 2021, 05:48 PM
INEOS Automotive - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/c/INEOSAutomotive/videos)


A plethora of time wasting videos detailing your Defender replacement..........

edit, and a new episode today....


https://youtu.be/5m_1lijldws?list=PLdQcsLYMDv9avYEbtL9oXRquu-u-OIS-6

Regards,
Tote

Tins
24th February 2021, 09:32 PM
Thing is nowhere near production and already the haters are out. So, pretty fitting Defender replacement then.

Tombie
24th February 2021, 10:06 PM
Thing is nowhere near production and already the haters are out. So, pretty fitting Defender replacement then.

Doesnít matter how good it is, itís Merc G-wagon territory at least for pricing.

And try to get spares in Oz.

Power to the bloke for giving it a go. I think it will end up a niche vehicle - but then again it may take up well and offer an alternative in the market.

Time will tell

Tins
24th February 2021, 10:15 PM
Doesnít matter how good it is, itís Merc G-wagon territory at least for pricing.

And try to get spares in Oz.

Power to the bloke for giving it a go. I think it will end up a niche vehicle - but then again it may take up well and offer an alternative in the market.

Time will tell

Yeah, it's pricing that's the issue. For the rest of it, bloke is a billionaire in charge of a massive company. Who knows what he can pull off. Just look at the bloke you paid a deposit to for some weird truck. It may just work. I hope it does, even if I'll never be a customer.

Red90
24th February 2021, 10:42 PM
Doesnít matter how good it is, itís Merc G-wagon territory at least for pricing.

And try to get spares in Oz.

Power to the bloke for giving it a go. I think it will end up a niche vehicle - but then again it may take up well and offer an alternative in the market.

Time will tell

You mean Defender territory.

Tombie
24th February 2021, 10:44 PM
You mean Defender territory.

Not the last pricing I was reading. More RR territory

Tins
24th February 2021, 10:52 PM
You mean Defender territory.

Where you are maybe. Certainly not here.

Edit: I'll qualify; seems the bulk might be LHD, which is another reason Defender lovers will miss out. There were LHD Deefers, sure, but the main markets were RHD.

Red90
24th February 2021, 10:53 PM
No. It will be below Defender pricing.

Tins
24th February 2021, 10:58 PM
No. It will be below Defender pricing.

Hope you are right. It would seem that they want it to be, but it would need to sell in orders of magnitude above the pundits predictions for that to happen. I, for one, hope it does.

Homestar
25th February 2021, 08:57 AM
No. It will be below Defender pricing.

I'll believe that when I see it.

Tins
25th February 2021, 11:53 AM
I'll believe that when I see it.


"Speaking of sales, Ineos indicated earlier this year that the Grenadier wagon will kick things off at around £40,000 at launch, which translates to about $53,500. That's not entry-level Wrangler money, and it's also not Range Rover money." ( Ineos Grenadier Inches Closer to Production after Buying Mercedes Plant (https://www.autoweek.com/news/trucks/a34921093/ineos-grenadier-inches-closer-to-production-after-buying-mercedes-plant/#:~:text=Speaking%20of%20sales%2C%20Ineos%20indica ted,also%20not%20Range%20Rover%20money.)Dollars))
Dollars are US. The cheapest Defender in the UK starts at around 45K for the D200, which is possibly not really a competitor for the Grenadier 3 litre.

Tombie
25th February 2021, 12:23 PM
"Speaking of sales, Ineos indicated earlier this year that the Grenadier wagon will kick things off at around £40,000 at launch, which translates to about $53,500. That's not entry-level Wrangler money, and it's also not Range Rover money." ( Ineos Grenadier Inches Closer to Production after Buying Mercedes Plant (https://www.autoweek.com/news/trucks/a34921093/ineos-grenadier-inches-closer-to-production-after-buying-mercedes-plant/#:~:text=Speaking%20of%20sales%2C%20Ineos%20indica ted,also%20not%20Range%20Rover%20money.)Dollars))
Dollars are US. The cheapest Defender in the UK starts at around 45K for the D200, which is possibly not really a competitor for the Grenadier 3 litre.

Not sure why your using US conversion rate in AU - Thatís currently $71k
Plus LCT, import, Dealer etc etc.

So looking at $85k base spec.

Tins
25th February 2021, 05:14 PM
Not sure why your using US conversion rate in AU - Thatís currently $71k
Plus LCT, import, Dealer etc etc.

So looking at $85k base spec.

I wasn't. That's a direct lift from a US mag, which I linked to. I actually stated that 'dollars' were US.

Sloppy reading, Mike.

Tombie
25th February 2021, 05:29 PM
I wasn't. That's a direct lift from a US mag, which I linked to. I actually stated that 'dollars' were US.

Sloppy reading, Mike.

Sloppy writing. You posted in USD - I acknowledged that, then went on to compare UK pricing on a Defender.

Anywho, itís going to be interesting to watch - highly unlikely to be part of my driveway collection though. Not sure why. Who knows.

Tins
25th February 2021, 07:58 PM
Sloppy writing.

No, the error was in your interpretation, not my implementation.


Anywho, itís going to be interesting to watch - highly unlikely to be part of my driveway collection though. Not sure why. Who knows.

Agreed. I'm interested, but my priorities lie elsewhere.

Gav 110
26th February 2021, 07:32 PM
Ineos Grenadier prototypes started production | Pat Callinan's 4X4 Adventures (https://mr4x4.com.au/ineos-grenadier-prototypes-started-production/?utm_source=ActiveCampaign&utm_medium=email&utm_content=Work+to+repair+Bridle+Track+finally+be gins&utm_campaign=PC+Newsletter+%23349)

WhiteD3
27th February 2021, 04:34 PM
I've just watched the 7 episode series on Youtube on the development of the Grenadier.

INEOS Automotive - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCkUPNBqPbOYuanFuh1RDfLw)

I'm sure its been said before but it looks to me what the new Defender should have been, while the new Defender should be the Discovery 6.

By the sounds of it this BMW powered Grenadier will be close to $100k with no dealer network (but I suppose you could take it to BMW or a Euro mechanic) while the Defender is what, a $110k in D300 form (?) with an existing (albeit **** poor) dealer network.

For the billion or so they are putting into this vehicle I find it hard to see their market.

Homestar
27th February 2021, 04:42 PM
So will it even be able to be registered in Australia? Are they making an ADR compliant version for our market? Assume it has Airbags, ABS, ESC, etc?

101RRS
27th February 2021, 04:48 PM
I'm sure its been said before but it looks to me what the new Defender should have been,

But with the exception of the last couple of run out years no one was buying new Defenders. Most who describe what the new Defender should have been would not have bought the old one. Yes the old Defender was and still is a popular vehicle as a used vehicle but not as a new vehicle.

Maybe if the old Defender had been popular, LR would have the funds to bring it into the 20th century let alone the 21st century.

Tins
27th February 2021, 06:22 PM
So will it even be able to be registered in Australia? Are they making an ADR compliant version for our market? Assume it has Airbags, ABS, ESC, etc?

If not its market will be limited to some parts of Africa and South America.

speleomike
28th February 2021, 08:52 PM
Hi



By the sounds of it this BMW powered Grenadier will be close to $100k with no dealer network (but I suppose you could take it to BMW or a Euro mechanic) .....


They will need a dealer network to sell in any reasonably viable quantity in most countries. The engine is the most complex part so that means it will be the BMW dealership. Any BMW dealership techos can be trained in the suspension, wiring, etc, but trying to get another dealer to service and maintain them with a complex BMW engine is unlikely. Extensive training would be required.

So when or if it comes here it will be the BMW network and priced accordingly. However it certainly won't compete in any existing BMW range.

Mike

gromit
14th April 2021, 07:19 AM
Ineos are currently recruiting for a Product Manager based in Melbourne.

The Role This role is the crucial interface between regional and central functions for all product related topics. Working closely with the Regional Business and After Sales Managers (ANZ) as well as the wider Product team (UK) and wider Commercial teams, the Product Manager-ANZ will both listen to and challenge the central product and engineering teams to reflect the needs of the individual ANZ markets from now to launch, and beyond into model lifecycle phases. The Product Manager-ANZ will represent the Ďvoice of the customerí in ANZ and support this through detailed investigation of customer insights and the fluid competitive environment.

INEOS Automotive We have one goal; manufacture, launch and deliver an uncompromising, best-in-class 4x4 for those who depend on a vehicle as a working tool. Itís been an exciting journey since our inception in 2017. Weíve flown past many milestones and, despite the global challenge of 2020, weíre on track to deliver our plan. 2021 is our year of execution and as the Product Manager you will play a huge part in this. If you are looking to join a scale-up business and take on a career defining role, then INEOS Automotive welcomes your application


Colin

simonmelb
14th April 2021, 09:34 PM
Thatís a good sign for the Australian market - ie we will have at least some influence on possible features of the product, if not just which accessories to be made available.

DeeJay
13th May 2021, 11:15 AM
More time to save up the pennies...

Billionaire Sir Jim Ratcliffe's Ineos Grenadier 4X4 delayed until 2022 (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-au/motoring/news/billionaire-sir-jim-ratcliffe-s-ineos-grenadier-4x4-delayed-until-2022/ar-BB1gEiaE?ocid=msedgdhp)

1984V8110
13th May 2021, 12:34 PM
If they get this off the ground for anything close to the lower end of the 30-45 thousand pound price estimated in this article, I suspect it will sell well - especially if they can make a plausible utility version.

I find it difficult to imagine how they can build to that price range, but perhaps by repurposing existing facilities and buying in engines and transmissions it is possible. I surely hope so, even though in typing that I feel I am betraying Landrover!

Michael

101RRS
13th May 2021, 12:41 PM
No one was buying new Defenders until LR announced they were no longer going to be made. Look at the signatures of people who support a Defender type vehicle and mostly they own mid 90s 300 tdis and are the type that would not buy a new vehicle.

If this vehicle does finally get off the ground, it has had an awfully long gestation period, I doubt sales would be much - these old bushies are all talk no money.

scarry
13th May 2021, 04:13 PM
INEOS Automotive We have one goal; manufacture, launch and deliver an uncompromising, best-in-class 4x4 for those who depend on a vehicle as a working tool.

I don't know what they think best in class means exactly, but if it is going to be used commercially,as a working tool, it needs to be the most reliable in class, and also not maintenance hungry.
Thats a huge challenge in itself.

gromit
13th May 2021, 07:30 PM
If this vehicle does finally get off the ground, it has had an awfully long gestation period

What's the gestation period for a new model from an established manufacturer ?
Ineos is a startup company so if they get into production next year they won't be doing too bad.

Where the price ends up will be a major deciding factor for their future success along with how they will support it globally.
As already mentioned, if it's through BMW dealers servicing is likely to be expensive but....it depends very much on the market they are aiming at. Lots of people are happy with paying huge amounts for servicing vehicles.

I hope it works out for them but the vehicle doesn't suit my daily driving needs, but if the cost was low enough I could adapt......


Colin

grey_ghost
14th May 2021, 03:42 PM
Ineos have released episode 8 of the build. In it they explain that they are "testing the vehicle in the 15 most harshest countries in the world"... You guess it, that DOESN'T include Australia! Lol

It will be an interesting vehicle, but I tend to agree that the people who like the old Defender, won't be able to afford this vehicle.

I hope that I'm wrong though!

Cheers,
GG.

ozscott
14th May 2021, 08:44 PM
I think it could be and probably will be fantastic and for many tastes a much more desirable vehicle than New Defender. However it is the lack of service centres that will likely be the issue in this big country of ours. Cheers

spudfan
14th May 2021, 11:29 PM
I posted this on the Defender2 site.

My take on it is. If I wanted to buy a traditional Land Rover and it had gone out of production (hard to believe, I know ) and this was available I'd buy one of these. Ticks a lot of boxes that the traditional Land Rover does. It is NOT a Land Rover but in a world where no traditional Land Rovers are being produced this would do very nicely.
Your man in the snazzy jumper has an idea as to what he wants his car to look like and perform. When he tells his engineers and design team "I want this.", they don't say "We can't do that" they just do it. Anyway I like the concept of it and how they are going about it. It is not being treated like a pariah that they have to keep on producing but begrudgingly do so with decreasing investment and quality control.
To my mind it will be a well engineered and produced vehicle. I am sure that over time when revisions are made the front could be tweeked, but I can live with it as it is. So long as the interior does not get too complicated and snazzy I'll be in the queue. Given the jumper man's ideas regarding how he wants his vehicle to look I do not think it will go that way.

JDNSW
15th May 2021, 06:43 AM
I think it could be and probably will be fantastic and for many tastes a much more desirable vehicle than New Defender. However it is the lack of service centres that will likely be the issue in this big country of ours. Cheers

Only a few less than Landrover!

gromit
15th May 2021, 09:13 AM
If you look through episode 7 the Alpine windows appear to be just superficial.
Twice as many as a Defender but with pressed steelwork close behind them you won't be able to look out at the mountains......
They would probably compromise the structural strength without structure behind them.

Body panels gal steel with aluminium bonnet & doors, majority of prototypes LHD.

In years to come I wonder if there will be people coveting & restoring the 2A prototypes ?

Colin

PS: From their website
Grenadier vs. the elementsThe intense heat of Death Valley, vast sand dunes in the Middle East, the choking bull dust of the Australian Outback, the mountainous trails of Austria, the ice and snow of Sweden. Our engineers will continue to subject the Grenadier prototype to an unrelenting development and validation process, covering 1.8 million kilometres in 15 countries.

DiscoMick
15th May 2021, 09:28 AM
I read they are buying in Mercedes engines and gear and building it in Europe close to Mercedes factories to keep costs down.

gromit
15th May 2021, 11:38 AM
I read they are buying in Mercedes engines and gear and building it in Europe close to Mercedes factories to keep costs down.

Not quite....

They are using BMW engines and Ineos have purchased a Mercedes factory in France.
The factory made the Smart car but was built to cope with building a large SUV, they just have to re-tool for the Grenadier.

Prototypes are being built by Magna Steyr in Austria.


Colin

RANDLOVER
15th May 2021, 02:42 PM
Only a few less than Landrover!

I think they will use BMW dealers as the service agents, seeing as that is what the engines are.

101RRS
15th May 2021, 03:44 PM
I think they will use BMW dealers as the service agents, seeing as that is what the engines are.

Toyota still use their own service agents.

spudfan
15th May 2021, 07:16 PM
Earlier on in the discussion, it was said that they hoped to get farm machinery sellers to come on board. This would give them a bigger footprint and keep the cost down. Fair enough it will depend on just how complicated the final article is but I think it is showing promise. Funnily enough there has been no word that production has been delayed by the world wide shortage of microchips. Maybe it will not be heavily reliant on these, engine excepted.

JDNSW
15th May 2021, 07:33 PM
Bit hard to see how they could avoid it and meet ADRs - thinking airbags, ASC, ABS. But the issues with chip shortages arise for those companies who cancelled orders - those that predicted their needs, ordered ahead and did not cancel do not have issues.

ozscott
15th May 2021, 07:48 PM
I think they will use BMW dealers as the service agents, seeing as that is what the engines are.I wondered that but its a big ask for BMW Centres to train up their people just for a tiny part of the market (the market that isn't theirs)....and while it might share a single diesel with some BMW vehicles the engine bay and accessories will likely be very different and the rest of the vehicle will be poles apart from any BMW products so I can't see such dealers being that interested (can't see it being viable either). Cheers

RANDLOVER
16th May 2021, 01:52 PM
I wondered that but its a big ask for BMW Centres to train up their people just for a tiny part of the market (the market that isn't theirs)....and while it might share a single diesel with some BMW vehicles the engine bay and accessories will likely be very different and the rest of the vehicle will be poles apart from any BMW products so I can't see such dealers being that interested (can't see it being viable either). Cheers

I think it is viable as there is nothing new under the sun in auto engineering really, and BMW does some trick engines, like the diesel one that has 3 turbos, two small and one big and it series and parallels them depending on the usage. The Grenadier will seem positively agricultural compared to that, and a lot of Indies work on all sorts of cars. I've even got my mech to work on my brother's Opel/Vauxhall/Holden, and he did it as he said it had a similar oil cooler immersed in water in the Vee of the block to a Freelander.

loanrangie
19th May 2021, 09:35 AM
Have to laugh at a new youtube video that said they are taking on Land rover, yeah good one since that vehicle ended 5 years ago.

gromit
19th May 2021, 06:34 PM
Have to laugh at a new youtube video that said they are taking on Land rover, yeah good one since that vehicle ended 5 years ago.

Maybe you haven't noticed, there's a new Land Rover 'Defender'........

I haven't seen the video you're referring to but maybe they meant taking over where Land Rover left off ?
Their success will depend a lot on the price when it's launched here and how they intend to support it.



Colin

loanrangie
20th May 2021, 11:41 AM
Maybe you haven't noticed, there's a new Land Rover 'Defender'........

I haven't seen the video you're referring to but maybe they meant taking over where Land Rover left off ?
Their success will depend a lot on the price when it's launched here and how they intend to support it.



Colin

completely different class of vehicle.

ozscott
20th May 2021, 12:37 PM
completely different class of vehicle.Thankfully. Cheers

Tombie
20th May 2021, 01:11 PM
completely different class of vehicle.

Is it though? [emoji38]

loanrangie
20th May 2021, 02:02 PM
Is it though? [emoji38]

Has more in common with a 70 series, minus the cart springs,dust buster and uneven track.

gromit
20th May 2021, 09:17 PM
completely different class of vehicle.

The Grenadier is more like the original Defender.

The new Land Rover 'Defender' is very much a different class of vehicle.......

Colin

Tombie
21st May 2021, 07:07 AM
The Grenadier is more like the original Defender.

The new Land Rover 'Defender' is very much a different class of vehicle.......

Colin

In aesthetics only.

Significantly Higher tech level, different construction method.

It wonít be modifiable just like the new Defender, as itís not a mechano set (one of the biggest gripes from the old school).

It has to meet global equivalents of ADRs for its era, so will be limited in its modifications - just like the new defender.

It will have all the emissions requirements of current EU so will need all that tech.

Itís a Sheep in Wolfs (deliberately reversed) clothing - it gives the illusion of being something by reflecting a familiar shape.

gromit
21st May 2021, 08:09 AM
In aesthetics only.

Significantly Higher tech level, different construction method.

It wonít be modifiable just like the new Defender, as itís not a mechano set (one of the biggest gripes from the old school).

It has to meet global equivalents of ADRs for its era, so will be limited in its modifications - just like the new defender.

It will have all the emissions requirements of current EU so will need all that tech.

Itís a Sheep in Wolfs (deliberately reversed) clothing - it gives the illusion of being something by reflecting a familiar shape.

I agree with most of your comments.
It's a given that they have to meet ADR's or local equivalents etc.

The old Defender would have been a loss leader for LR because the construction method was so labour intensive. The easily modifiable Defender's end was probably long overdue.

Isn't the new 'Defender' also a Sheep in Wolfs clothing - it gives the illusion of being something by reflecting a familiar shape ?

I think we'll have to wait to see how it compares to the Land Rover offer when/if the Grenadier finally gets into the market.
Land Rover have moved the whole range upmarket (price, image & servicing costs), the Grenadier seems to be aimed lower down but we'll have to wait and see.

Colin

rick130
21st May 2021, 08:43 AM
I agree with most of your comments.
It's a given that they have to meet ADR's or local equivalents etc.

The old Defender would have been a loss leader for LR because the construction method was so labour intensive. The easily modifiable Defender's end was probably long overdue.

Isn't the new 'Defender' also a Sheep in Wolfs clothing - it gives the illusion of being something by reflecting a familiar shape ?

I think we'll have to wait to see how it compares to the Land Rover offer when/if the Grenadier finally gets into the market.
Land Rover have moved the whole range upmarket (price, image & servicing costs), the Grenadier seems to be aimed lower down but we'll have to wait and see.

ColinA mate of mine, an Ex-LRA engineer said you wouldn't believe how labour intensive the old girl was to build.
He didn't get it until he visited Solihull and saw it fist hand when he was there to present some engineering stuff that the UK questioned could be done.

Having said that, development costs had been amortised 30 years ago, and the 25,000 units/year that some say was an indicator of low popularity was the limit of that line.
Land Rover would've had to build a new line to increase production, and there's no way that would happen with a car that was being legislated out of existence.

Tombie
21st May 2021, 05:59 PM
A mate of mine, an Ex-LRA engineer said you wouldn't believe how labour intensive the old girl was to build.
He didn't get it until he visited Solihull and saw it fist hand when he was there to present some engineering stuff that the UK questioned could be done.

Having said that, development costs had been amortised 30 years ago, and the 25,000 units/year that some say was an indicator of low popularity was the limit of that line.
Land Rover would've had to build a new line to increase production, and there's no way that would happen with a car that was being legislated out of existence.

I had similar - the RR Autobiography of the time cost less to build than a Defender!

SBD4
25th May 2021, 03:51 PM
https://youtu.be/9AerxfQ8p6E

PhilipA
4th June 2021, 08:24 PM
SBD4 beat me with the Marketing video.

I have to say that the Ineos Grenadier concept would suit me more than a Defender, and I think this would be true of many country people also.

They are obviously serious as you don't buy a 500million euros plant if you are not serious, although I am sure they didn't pay anything like that.

With the closure of big parts of Europe to ICE cars maybe they will take Australia seriously, and I see the markets as The Middle East , Russia, Asia, Africa and Australia . I cannot see the USA as a major market but you never Know.
Depends what their viable volume is.
Regards PhilipA

gromit
5th June 2021, 04:22 PM
With the closure of big parts of Europe to ICE cars maybe they will take Australia seriously, and I see the markets as The Middle East , Russia, Asia, Africa and Australia . I cannot see the USA as a major market but you never Know.


Ineos are doing a deal with Hyundai on an automotive fuel cell. Electric car without the inconvenience of batteries (once Hydrogen is readily available at servos !).
Ineos Grenadier Could Get Hyundai Fuel Cell Power With New Deal (https://www.motor1.com/news/456129/ineos-grenadier-hyundai-fuel-cell/)

So you could maybe have either an IC engine running on hydrogen or a fuel cell powering an electric version.

Seems they are also working on producing hydrogen.......
INEOS launches a new Clean Hydrogen Business to accelerate the drive to net zero carbon emissions (https://www.ineos.com/news/ineos-group/ineos-launches-a-new-clean-hydrogen-business-to-accelerate-the-drive-to-net-zero-carbon-emissions/)


The 4x4 Icons - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apK8xNEWwhE)


Colin

spudfan
18th June 2021, 02:07 AM
Grenadier Ineos, seems Australia is to be a key market.
2021 Ineos Grenadier prototype review | CarAdvice (https://www.caradvice.com.au/961176/2021-ineos-grenadier-prototype-review/?utm_source=Salesforce&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=MediaTest)
Ineos Grenadier Review (2021) | Autocar (https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/ineos/grenadier?utm_source=Salesforce&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=MediaTest)
Ineos Grenadier prototype 2022 review | Auto Express (https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/ineos/grenadier/355270/ineos-grenadier-prototype-2022-review?utm_source=Salesforce&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=MediaTest)
DON'T JUST TAKE OUR WORD FOR IT
Hello
So, what is it like to drive in a Grenadier prototype? We are giving you a look at some of the first reviews from a recent media test drive in Graz, taking on the perilous SchŲckl terrain. The Grenadier continues to be pushed to extreme limits, ensuring it is capable of dealing with everything you can throw at it.
"The Grenadier is not only up and running, it is nearly finished Ė and, as we discover, itís quite brilliant to drive on and off-road." - Mark Tisshaw, Editor, Autocar.
"When the Grenadier is launched, it will be unrivalled in its segment." - Auto Express.
"If there were any lingering doubts about the ability of Ineos to turn out a world-class off-roader, theyíve just been blown away." - Car Advice.
FIND OUT MORE
Ineos Grenadier petrol prototype specifications

Price £40,000 (estimated) Engine 6 cyls in line, 2998cc, turbocharged, petrol Power 283bhp Torque 332lb ft Transmission 8-speed automatic plus 2-speed transfer case Kerb weight 2650kg (estimated) Top speed 100mph Dimensions 4927(L) x 1930(W) x 2033(H) Towing capacity 3500kg Ground clearance 257.8mm Approach angle 35.9deg Departure angle 35.9deg
(Apologies if this is in the wrong section)



0

Hogarthde
18th June 2021, 04:50 AM
I like the body shape...although it does look a tad similar to a vehicle already here.

spudfan
18th June 2021, 05:09 AM
I like the body shape...although it does look a tad similar to a vehicle already here.

No harm in that! Glad to see someone willing to develop such a vehicle. Solihull don't want to do it so why not Ineos?

Xtreme
18th June 2021, 05:30 AM
No harm in that! Glad to see someone willing to develop such a vehicle. Solihull don't want to do it so why not Ineos?
And doing it well from all reports.

gromit
18th June 2021, 05:44 AM
Grenadier Ineos, seems Australia is to be a key market.


They've been recruiting here for a range of job positions.
There is another thread already running Ineos Grenadier, do you reckon it'll take off? (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/european-manufactured/253877-ineos-grenadier-do-you-reckon-itll-take-off.html)

Colin

Hogarthde
18th June 2021, 05:52 AM
Must confess I had not read that Ineos article... way back Ď17 eh.

and I was being facetious about body shape, to my own shame🥵

dirvine
18th June 2021, 05:52 AM
I just wonder what the final price will be once you add diff locks and a few other "optional" 4wd necessities. My guess would be north of AU$140,000 at todays prices. I just wonder if people will be prepared to pay that much for a "basic looking" 4wd. One only has to look at the Merc to see, despite all the 4WD kit they have, they do not sell in large numbers here. But it does look like a Defender and "fit for purpose" and not a Toorak Tractor.

scarry
18th June 2021, 06:27 AM
I just wonder what the final price will be once you add diff locks and a few other "optional" 4wd necessities. My guess would be north of AU$140,000 at todays prices. I just wonder if people will be prepared to pay that much for a "basic looking" 4wd. One only has to look at the Merc to see, despite all the 4WD kit they have, they do not sell in large numbers here. But it does look like a Defender and "fit for purpose" and not a Toorak Tractor.

And they will have to crack the 'garden variety' vehicle market,that is Japs,Thia,and Koreans.

That will very difficult here in Aus,and no doubt other countries such as Africa as well.

DiscoMick
18th June 2021, 01:16 PM
Needs a turbo diesel engine to do well here.

cripesamighty
19th June 2021, 09:29 PM
Got the full online issue of Autocar magazine the other day. I don't know if it's ok to upload just the section on driving the Ineos Grenadier prototype. I'm sure mods will sort it out.

171686

chuck
19th June 2021, 10:13 PM
Thanks for posting that up - good read.

Sounds like it will be a good 4 x 4

Homestar
21st June 2021, 09:26 AM
"It will be a good value, but not a cheap car"

Still think it will be over $100K if it lands here unfortunately.

spudfan
23rd June 2021, 11:03 PM
Latest updates
INEOS Automotive partners
with The HALO Trust to develop Grenadier
Hello
We promised to bring you news first. Thatís exactly what weíre doing as we reveal our new NGO collaboration.
Announced later, INEOS Automotive will unveil The HALO Trust as a Development Partner. A pivotal relationship to provide Grenadier with real life understanding of whatís needed to make the most rugged, dependable off-road vehicles.
New to The HALO Trust? Itís the worldís largest humanitarian mine clearance and weapons disposal organisation, operating in the most remote places on earth. Hear more from Mark Evans and The HALO Trust below.
The HALO Trust | INEOS Grenadier Partner | INEOS Grenadier (https://ineosgrenadier.com/en-gb/explore/ineos-grenadier-partners/the-halo-trust?utm_content=HR_EN&utm_source=Salesforce&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=Halo)

goingbush
24th June 2021, 08:20 AM
Its organisations and users like this that JLR / Landrover have literally turned their backs on.


https://youtu.be/0S90kNKywqk

Red90
24th June 2021, 10:41 AM
Needs a turbo diesel engine to do well here.

Engines were announced over a year ago. 3 liter inline 6 BMW engines in petrol and diesel.

Tombie
24th June 2021, 01:48 PM
Its organisations and users like this that JLR / Landrover have literally turned their backs on.


https://youtu.be/0S90kNKywqk

Because overall they make little market share or ongoing profit from them.

Perenties made a lot of money and then they kept them 20 years. No ongoing sales there.

Tins
24th June 2021, 10:06 PM
The Halo Trust think it just might.


https://youtu.be/0S90kNKywqk

W&KO
25th June 2021, 01:36 PM
I see they are working on a replacement for the OKA

Is there any detail on the rig in the background?

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210625/c487d12ccc454989955c399ff498ac00.png

101RRS
25th June 2021, 01:58 PM
That is a late model diesel Pinzguer.

1984V8110
25th June 2021, 04:40 PM
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210625/c487d12ccc454989955c399ff498ac00.png

The deep bumper bar clearly damages angle of approach. Any suggestions as to why this might be required. I thought it may be some way of including airbags for otherwise its about the only think that I don't like in what I see!!

Michael

gromit
25th June 2021, 06:01 PM
The deep bumper bar clearly damages angle of approach. Any suggestions as to why this might be required. I thought it may be some way of including airbags for otherwise its about the only think that I don't like in what I see!!

Michael

It's somewhere to sit....

There must be other reasons though.


Coli

Bulletman
25th June 2021, 07:56 PM
The deep bumper bar clearly damages angle of approach. Any suggestions as to why this might be required. I thought it may be some way of including airbags for otherwise its about the only think that I don't like in what I see!!

Michael

Is it to hold a winch and act as a bull bar of sorts.?

Bulletman

Slunnie
25th June 2021, 08:48 PM
Ineos Grenadier, do you reckon it'll take off? (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/european-manufactured/253877-ineos-grenadier-do-you-reckon-itll-take-off.html)

Personally, I think it will be miles better than the old Defender, but it wont take off. I think it will be on the market for a couple of years and then disappear.

Tombie
26th June 2021, 09:46 AM
The deep bumper bar clearly damages angle of approach. Any suggestions as to why this might be required. I thought it may be some way of including airbags for otherwise its about the only think that I don't like in what I see!!

Michael

Think Jeep Wrangle when they updated that years ago.

Crash cans etc [emoji41]

Tombie
26th June 2021, 09:48 AM
Personally, I think it will be miles better than the old Defender, but it wont take off. I think it will be on the market for a couple of years and then disappear.

I think youíre spot on, or the G wagon market.
Limited access market and high prices.

I think people only like it because the shape is familiar. Other than that itís nothing remarkable, nowhere near as customisable as the Rivet counters herald the Defender to be, and likely impossible to get serviced easily outside metro - like the current LR crowd consistently complain about.

Hats off to the bloke for giving it a go though.

Arapiles
26th June 2021, 05:57 PM
Got the full online issue of Autocar magazine the other day. I don't know if it's ok to upload just the section on driving the Ineos Grenadier prototype. I'm sure mods will sort it out.

171686

Does sound better than I'd thought - but I'd disagree about that crack about monocoques being poor off-road: even if you ignore the Pajero, pretty much everyone agrees that the new Defender is very capable.

scarry
26th June 2021, 07:10 PM
Does sound better than I'd thought - but I'd disagree about that crack about monocoques being poor off-road: even if you ignore the Pajero, pretty much everyone agrees that the new Defender is very capable.

Sure the new Deefer is very capable,but one downfall of monocoque in Aus,is no GVM or SSM upgrade allowed,for those that tow blocks of flats.

simonmelb
26th June 2021, 08:07 PM
Couple of points: the world 4wd market is now massive with almost all manufacturers concentrating on the biggest ( and probably most profitable) market segments only - ie consumer everyday family 4wd and general work utes and luxury suvs.

This leaves several market segments underserved which Ineos have identified as being attractive and big enough to make a business out of.

It wonít be able to compete on price or range of features with mass market 4wds, nor will you able to get it serviced in most places on the planet, because thatís not their strategy.

But provided it performs as planned my bet would be it will be a long lived vehicle and very successful in many niche markets only. Not as a mass market 4wd as it will be priced too high relative to alternatives.

Tombie
26th June 2021, 08:23 PM
Sure the new Deefer is very capable,but one downfall of monocoque in Aus,is no GVM or SSM upgrade allowed,for those that tow blocks of flats.

Shouldnít be allowed either.

Buy a suitable tow vehicle in the first place.

Tombie
26th June 2021, 08:24 PM
Couple of points: the world 4wd market is now massive with almost all manufacturers concentrating on the biggest ( and probably most profitable) market segments only - ie consumer everyday family 4wd and general work utes and luxury suvs.

This leaves several market segments underserved which Ineos have identified as being attractive and big enough to make a business out of.

It wonít be able to compete on price or range of features with mass market 4wds, nor will you able to get it serviced in most places on the planet, because thatís not their strategy.

But provided it performs as planned my bet would be it will be a long lived vehicle and very successful in many niche markets only. Not as a mass market 4wd as it will be priced too high relative to alternatives.

Yep. A bespoke G wagon. [emoji1787]

grey_ghost
7th July 2021, 02:27 PM
A Video has just landed of the Interior - quite interesting to see:

* They have quite a few buttons (including on the roof) - so that "things are easily pressed instead of having to scroll through menus"

* The guy mentions: "Interestingly for the Australian Market - there WILL BE a pickup.."

INEOS Grenadier interior revealed - carsales.com.au (https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/ineos-grenadier-interior-revealed-130842/)

Interesting... I wonder why he mentions Australia specifically. It is telling that he says "pickup" and not "ute"

Cheers,
GG.

Tombie
7th July 2021, 02:59 PM
I donít mind the interior thought

SPROVER
7th July 2021, 03:00 PM
I honestly really like what they have done with it. The interior actually looks pretty good and comfortable. I'd prefer one of these over the new so called defender. [emoji16]
I hope they sell more of them than the current Defender. [emoji1787] They probably won't, but wouldn't you love to see the look on the Land rover executives faces if they did.

Tombie
7th July 2021, 04:01 PM
Ssangyong made a short version years ago.... this is just a facelift [bigsmile1]
https://img.drivemag.net/jato_car_photos/SSANGYONG%2FKORANDO%2Fsport%20utility%20vehicle%2F 3%2F2003%2Fexterior-photos%2Fo%2Fssangyong-korando-sport-utility-vehicle-3-doors-2003-model-exterior-photos-0.jpg

ozscott
7th July 2021, 04:20 PM
Ssangyong made a short version years ago.... this is just a facelift [bigsmile1]
https://img.drivemag.net/jato_car_photos/SSANGYONG%2FKORANDO%2Fsport%20utility%20vehicle%2F 3%2F2003%2Fexterior-photos%2Fo%2Fssangyong-korando-sport-utility-vehicle-3-doors-2003-model-exterior-photos-0.jpgWow that is a shocker. Actually worse than the front of the new Defender.

Cheers