"Demerit" Points.

[Pickles2]

Well, I'm quite aware that there are invariably many on this forum that do not agree with much of what i have to say. Absolutely no problem, I LOVE a good discussion, & am very much aware that others have different opinions to mine, so....all good, as long as it doesn't get personally derogatory,..I don't do it myself, and I see no need for it..
Anyway, Wifey & I got back home this afternoon after spending two absolutely glorious days driving Gracie around the Yarra Valley, whilst staying at a wonderful place, Chateau Yering.....just out of this world.
Anyway, we get back home, and we open the mail, & Wifey's copped an "Infringement Notice",....3 points & $317 for doing 52 kph in a 40 zone. The 40 zone may be known to some of you Melbournites,...as you are going in a northerly direction downhill along Warrigal Rd, just after you pass the Matthew Flinders Hotel, for some unknown reason it's 40 kph & has been for a long time,..and we know that!
Anyway, Wifey's made a boo boo, she hasn't slowed down quickly enough (she's slowing down from 60), so she's copped THREE points for being 12ks over, 52 in a 40 zone (why it's a 40 zone, divided road etc,..I don't know!,,she has been in the process of slowing down, but obviously, not quickly enough.
Not much we can do about it, we've done the crime, so we'll do the time,..and luckily it won't have much influence on our financial position or driving freedom. We've already paid it.
BUT, for a struggling family, a $317 fine could be devastating, they may simply be unable to pay,....anything. And again, for whatever reason, THREE points for, in my opinion, an easy error, could, in some cases, result in loss of license, which if you need your license in your work, could mean loss of your job, income, etc etc,..could ruin yor life,...FOR WHAT???,...being 12ks over in a 40 zone, that shouldn't be 40 (well I know plenty of others who live in the area that can't understand it either!)
Anyway, I know there'll be the "usual suspects" on here that are "perfect",..never make a boo boo, but in terms of what crimes are happening everyday in Melbourne, where no penalties are handed out by weak as water magistrates for far worse "crimes", I thought that what Wfey copped was just crap....just the way I feel anyway.
pickles.

[NavyDiver]

Mea Culpa. I did it to- Clock in my D3 suggest it was 9.45. It was 9.27. 70kph zone V 40KPH zone. 25 over and my first infringement in decades had me running and riding a bit more than I already enjoy. [thumbsupbig]

My bad of course. Honestly think fines could be set as a % of income as my fine was not a bother for me at all either but would have hurt some people a lot more as well. Shhhh on that idea please[biggrin]

[loanrangie]

If wifey has had a clean record for 5 years a nicely written letter will get her off, I don't understand the 40 zones either but at least they aren't 25 like in SA.

[trout1105]

Your Wife got caught speeding and copped a fine and 3 demerits, Boo Hoo.
If you do the crime you do the time simple as that, Jumping up and down moaning about how unfair it is pointless and will fall on deaf ears.
Many of us have been busted for speeding at one time or another and Yes it is a PITA when it happens But moaning and whining about how unfair you have been treated because of being caught for lapse in judgment when driving is pitiful.
We all know that speeding is illegal so if you get caught by Mr Plod the best thing to do is to cop it sweet and do your best not to do it again.

[Bytemrk]

Pickles you have all my sympathy - the penalties being applied for many road infringements in Victoria - simply do not fit the "crime".

I'm the first to agree that these clowns that do excessive speed in built up areas need the book thrown at them..... knowing the piece of road you are talking about, I'd say how dangerous 52 km/hr is would be very debatable....

I see dozens of drivers every day that are not speeding - but are far more dangerous than that!..

[Mick_Marsh]

I agree with Mr Loanrangie. If it is her first offence, a nicely worded letter admitting the crime, pointing out she has never done such an embarrassing thing before, and she'll never do it again.

[V8Ian]

Your Wife got caught speeding and copped a fine and 3 demerits, Boo Hoo.
If you do the crime you do the time simple as that, Jumping up and down moaning about how unfair it is pointless and will fall on deaf ears.
Many of us have been busted for speeding at one time or another and Yes it is a PITA when it happens But moaning and whining about how unfair you have been treated because of being caught for lapse in judgment when driving is pitiful.
We all know that speeding is illegal so if you get caught by Mr Plod the best thing to do is to cop it sweet and do your best not to do it again.
A bit harsh Trout, Pickles isn't 'jumping up and down' about his/their situation, but the blatant revenue raising that will cause hardship to battlers.

[DiscoMick]

I agree with you Pickles.
There, that a surprise?
BTW I got done recently for doing 74 for what had previously been an 80 zone until being cut to 60 so can sympathize.

[trout1105]

I may have been somewhat harsh But speeding is not only a crime it has been proved to cause accidents and deaths.
Try telling a parent of a child that has been run down by a speeding car that speeding is not that serious and the coppers are just using it as an excuse to raise revenue[bigwhistle]
We all know that speeding is dangerous and we all know it is illegal and yet many of us still speed.
I myself am NO angel in this regard and I have been busted on a few occasions that have cost me money and demerit points that left me feeling stupid for speeding in the first place.

[Mick_Marsh]

I may have been somewhat harsh But speeding is not only a crime
Actually, speeding is not a criminal offence, it is a traffic offence.

[NavyDiver]

If wifey has had a clean record for 5 years a nicely written letter will get her off, I don't understand the 40 zones either but at least they aren't 25 like in SA.

I know what you mean. Visit SA to go fishing was very cool but a boat behind leaving coming up to suddenly stopping traffic for a 25Km zone on the way home had some smoking tires almost bring a Disco boat and a few up the end of knowledgeable local. Hardest braking I have done for a long time. I honestly had never seen a 25kph zone before in my life!

[trout1105]

Actually, speeding is not a criminal offence, it is a traffic offence.

Regardless of that speeding offenses still end up on your criminal record [bigwhistle]

[V8Ian]

Surely you haven't been sucked in by the "Every K over is a killer" malarkey, Trout. Enforcement is more about revenue raising than safety.
Anyone familiar with the Warego Highway will know the Blacksoil/Muirlea camera, it's in a hollow between a gentle downhill slope and a reasonably steep climb, on an uninterrupted section of divided road, with a 100 kph limit, through undeveloped country. If you have the CC set for 100 kph, your vehicle will be travelling at 103-104 kph at the photo point, within 300 metres the vehicle will be back to 100 kph.
If authorities were fair dinkum about safety, there would be a greater visible presence of marked police cars, to deter speeding, rather than unmarked cars issuing fines after the event.

[Mick_Marsh]

Regardless of that speeding offenses still end up on your criminal record [bigwhistle]
Well, again, not strictly correct.

VicRoads keeps two different types of record for traffic offences. One is a record of all your offences that have incurred demerit points. Your demerit points record can not be used against you in court. The other is a record of all licence loss infringement notices and traffic related court outcomes. This record will be used against you in court if you lose your court case.
In Mrs Pickles case, this will not appear on her criminal record, unless she takes it to court.

[rangieman]

Simple dont speed or break the law on the road`s and you will have nothing to worry about money or point wise[bigwhistle]

Yes i am aware of not deliberately or by accidentally speeding but the law is the law [wink11]
You break it and you :bat:pay the price

[VladTepes]

I dont know what vehicle you were in but i maintain anyone who gets done speeding in a Tdi defender or series vehicle deserves a MERIT BADGE !!!!!!

[Mick_Marsh]

Simple dont speed or break the law on the road`s and you will have nothing to worry about money or point wise[bigwhistle]

Yes i am aware of not deliberately or by accidentally speeding but the law is the law [wink11]
You break it and you :bat:pay the price
If you get caught.

Did I mention, I was followed by a police car last night. I slowed down to 40km/h as I passed them as you are supposed to do (and to give an oncoming truck time to swing out and pass them) and they turned around and followed me for about 30km. The totally ignored the farmer towing the unregistered tandem with a broken tail light we both passed.

[trog]

Got stuck with a spers notice early this year . Got stuck in a red light intersection , flash. Seems the car is out of rego , paid but no reference, therefore no insurance , though paid . Total cost near 2 k . Can I argue , no , leniency , no . Just pay up.

[cripesamighty]

But Trog, aren't computers and the system supposed to be infallible......

Last time I checked the ABS stats, a very large proportion of the fatalities were caused by unlicensed drivers or in unregistered vehicles (and repeat offenders too). The overwhelming majority of drivers who go a couple of kms over the limit and get booked, are sacrificed to the to road safety Gods. As an old journal article stated "speed is not the pariah", just a useful (profitable scapegoat). Lots of other things to fix first, but they cost money, or are more about education (which costs money).

[trout1105]

Surely you haven't been sucked in by the "Every K over is a killer" malarkey, Trout. Enforcement is more about revenue raising than safety.
Anyone familiar with the Warego Highway will know the Blacksoil/Muirlea camera, it's in a hollow between a gentle downhill slope and a reasonably steep climb, on an uninterrupted section of divided road, with a 100 kph limit, through undeveloped country. If you have the CC set for 100 kph, your vehicle will be travelling at 103-104 kph at the photo point, within 300 metres the vehicle will be back to 100 kph.
If authorities were fair dinkum about safety, there would be a greater visible presence of marked police cars, to deter speeding, rather than unmarked cars issuing fines after the event.

I agree that 1-2 k's over is "Nit Picking" and a Warning would be a better way of Policing in this situation, However if you are fully aware that you CC will put you at risk by up to 4k's over then wouldn't it be prudent to set it at 95-96k's ?
Personally I don't like to use the CC It make the drive totally boring because for Me the journey is just as much fun as the destination [thumbsupbig]

What we are discussing here is 12k's over the limit and I doubt that anyone can argue that being charged for travelling at this much excess speed is a case of "Nit Picking" and just a case of revenue raising.

[3toes]

Got stuck with a spers notice early this year . Got stuck in a red light intersection , flash. Seems the car is out of rego , paid but no reference, therefore no insurance , though paid . Total cost near 2 k . Can I argue , no , leniency , no . Just pay up.

If you paid by credit card speak to the card company and have them refund the payments as a charge back as the product paid for was not supplied. Why should you pay twice? If the government has put in writing that the service was not supplied what better evidence can you have.....

[Pickles2]

If wifey has had a clean record for 5 years a nicely written letter will get her off, I don't understand the 40 zones either but at least they aren't 25 like in SA.
Not a 3 pointer,...only a one pointer I believe.
Pickles.

[trout1105]

The 40 zones are usually placed around schools here in WA to protect the kids, I am not sure if that is also the case in Vic.

[Pickles2]

Your Wife got caught speeding and copped a fine and 3 demerits, Boo Hoo.
If you do the crime you do the time simple as that, Jumping up and down moaning about how unfair it is pointless and will fall on deaf ears.
Many of us have been busted for speeding at one time or another and Yes it is a PITA when it happens But moaning and whining about how unfair you have been treated because of being caught for lapse in judgment when driving is pitiful.
We all know that speeding is illegal so if you get caught by Mr Plod the best thing to do is to cop it sweet and do your best not to do it again.Like I said, there are always ones that have to "have a go",..and if that rocks your boat, then all is good.
If you actually bother to sensibly READ my post you'll READ that we're quite happy to "do the time", and where was I "moaning"?
Don't need a lecture mate, wifey knows exactly what she's done, & we're copping it sweet, and like I said, we've paid the fine, not trying to "moan" about anything either, just trying to say how the ramifications of such a paltry issue could affect the lives of others in a far more serious manner.
Pickles.

[Pickles2]

I dont know what vehicle you were in but i maintain anyone who gets done speeding in a Tdi defender or series vehicle deserves a MERIT BADGE !!!!!!
Lol!!...No, Wifey was driving her Audi RS3!
Pickles.

[Pickles2]

Pickles you have all my sympathy - the penalties being applied for many road infringements in Victoria - simply do not fit the "crime".

I'm the first to agree that these clowns that do excessive speed in built up areas need the book thrown at them..... knowing the piece of road you are talking about, I'd say how dangerous 52 km/hr is would be very debatable....

I see dozens of drivers every day that are not speeding - but are far more dangerous than that!..
Thanks.
Good that you know the road, so you know the situation I'm talking about.
Pickles.

[trout1105]

FOR WHAT???,...being 12ks over in a 40 zone, that shouldn't be 40 (well I know plenty of others who live in the area that can't understand it either!)
Anyway, I know there'll be the "usual suspects" on here that are "perfect",..never make a boo boo, but in terms of what crimes are happening everyday in Melbourne, where no penalties are handed out by weak as water magistrates for far worse "crimes", I thought that what Wfey copped was just crap....just the way I feel anyway.
pickles.

I did read your post carefully and this part of that post reads like you are complaining about the ticket to me.

[ramblingboy42]

why are you trying to make an issue out of this Trout?

[Mick_Marsh]

The 40 zones are usually placed around schools here in WA to protect the kids, I am not sure if that is also the case in Vic.
No.
They originally were, then something was discovered when they dropped the speed limit in suburban areas to fifty. They rolled out the 40km/h limit to other high trafficed areas and "shopping zones". It was considered so successful (as being discussed in this thread) they are now considering rolling out 30km/h limit zones.
That is the case in Victoria.

[DiscoMick]

It's certainly true that losing your licence can cause people to lose their jobs, which seems harsh. I have seen cases appealed to court where hardship is raised and the magistrate orders the issue of a licence only to drive to and from work.
I have seen it claimed that some of the many people driving unlicensed are doing it to keep their jobs but I've never seen a survey about that.
Of course some of those who lose their licences are repeat offenders and can only blame themselves. That's obviously not the case with Mrs Pickles.
In my recent case I just got caught by a changed speed zone which was altered to make the entrance to a new housing estate safer.
There is a big difference between crashing at 80 and 60 in terms of damage done and likelihood of injury or fatality.
I'm quite happy for 40 zones to be put around schools at drop off and pickup times.
I think 25 zones are a step too far and frustrated drivers will just ignore them.
Not sure about other states but in Qld the radar is set at 3 Ks over the speed limit to allow for speedo error. Is that true in other states? Does Victoria only allow 1 k over?
Speedoes have to be set under the actual speed by law. So, for example, if the speedo reads 60 you might only be actually doing say 57. Set the CC at 63 and you might actually be doing about 60.
More people die from air pollution (about 3000 a year) than car crashes (1294 in 2016) so I guess it is all relative.

Safety Statistics (https://bitre.gov.au/statistics/safety/)

3000 deaths caused by air pollution each year prompt calls for tougher standards (http://www.smh.com.au/environment/3000-deaths-caused-by-air-pollution-each-year-prompt-calls-for-tougher-standards-20151113-gkygv1.html)

[CraigE]

If wifey has had a clean record for 5 years a nicely written letter will get her off, I don't understand the 40 zones either but at least they aren't 25 like in SA.

Does not work. Tried it a little while ago. Was 10kmph over on a up hill downhill section. Even with no offences for over 10 years and then only ever minor ones.
What irks me the most is it is for seconds not continued or deliberate speeding and on a fairly steep downhill section.
Yet what annoys the crap out of me you can have a truck or car / trailer / caravan doing 110 on the hwy that are supposed to be max 100 kmph and day in day out get away with it as the speed camera does not differentiate and a heavy haulage vehicle speeding is way more dangerous.

[DiscoClax]

I've been done for speeding twice in nearly thirty years of driving. That's more by good luck than anything else. But I do try and abide always. Both times I applied for leniency and had it granted due to my good record. Both times I would have copped it on the chin. Both times had little or no safety implications as they were clear open stretches in good conditions. Both times I thought were bloody ridiculous and the limit didn't match the environment.

For me it's the single minded fixation on speed alone with draconian penalties that galls me. I'd like to see a more balanced approach that makes the roads safer and weeds out the 1%ers that take it too far by driving dangerously and/or in dangerous cars. But speed is an easy one to enforce automatically... cha-ching. Don't even need coppers to do it.

IMHO there's a big difference between 'speed' and 'inappropriate speed'. 10k over on the Hume in good conditions in a good car in a good mental state may be safe, 10k over past a school is not - despite that being well under half the 'speed'... 10k too fast around a bend in a country road could end badly yet still be within the limit.

* rant ends *

[trout1105]

Most of the people I know that rely on their drivers licence for their job tend to be pretty careful about speeding and drink driving.
I am pretty sure that most truckies don't take too many chances by upsetting Mr Plod.
I made a few stupid braindead mistakes a few years ago by speeding and once not stopping at a stop sign in the middle of nowhere and I ended up just having 1 demerit point left, I drove pretty nervously for 2 years until I got some points back and I have been super careful ever since.
Did the fines and demerit point losses teach me to be pay closer attention to my speed, Too right they did.

[Roverlord off road spares]

my mate has no points left and went the option double jeopardy, then he came around whinging he got caught going through a red light, now he looses his licence for twice as long, he was offering to pay a Kiwi work mate a couple of hundred to take the wrap. I see how he drives and have no real sympathy for him, he could have lost it long ago, but his step daughter took the wrap for it . Revenue raising he complains, I just put it down to bad driving and maybe he needs to do a refresher course.
There's an idea, send people who loose their licence to do a refresher courses, like they do fir drink drivers. They obviously don't know how to drive.[bigwhistle]

[rangieman]

If you get caught.

Did I mention, I was followed by a police car last night. I slowed down to 40km/h as I passed them as you are supposed to do (and to give an oncoming truck time to swing out and pass them) and they turned around and followed me for about 30km. The totally ignored the farmer towing the unregistered tandem with a broken tail light we both passed.
So you didn`t get fined or loose any demerit points or get stopped [wink11]
Just imagine what would happen if you still had the crummydore [bigwhistle]

[Eevo]

revenue raising.
safety.

dont confuse the two.

[loanrangie]

Does not work. Tried it a little while ago. Was 10kmph over on a up hill downhill section. Even with no offences for over 10 years and then only ever minor ones.
What irks me the most is it is for seconds not continued or deliberate speeding and on a fairly steep downhill section.
Yet what annoys the crap out of me you can have a truck or car / trailer / caravan doing 110 on the hwy that are supposed to be max 100 kmph and day in day out get away with it as the speed camera does not differentiate and a heavy haulage vehicle speeding is way more dangerous.

Yes it does, both myself and my wife have got off with a warning after sending a letter.

[Roverlord off road spares]

I laugh when speeders overtake me, only to see them waiting at the next set of red lights , why is there such a rush to get to the next red light?
I just drive at the posted speed and get there ok, then sometimes I pass them, as I still have momentum as the lights turn green, the speeders then put the foot to the floor to speed to the next set of lights.

[trout1105]

I see people speeding past me all the time when I am travelling towing my boat at 95-100 only to drive past them each time as they pull into just about every servo on the road [biggrin]
I went to Sharks bay once and myself and my Mate both left Gerro at the same time.
I was quite content to plod along at 95-100 but Old Mate wouldn't have a bar of that and thundered past me, I caught up to him on the Useless Loop road where he was contemplating what to do about the busted spring on his boat trailer that was a result of thundering down that lousy road.
A white post and plenty of gaffer tape got him going again But he ended up having a much slower trip than me after that.

[Mick_Marsh]

So you didn`t get fined or loose any demerit points or get stopped [wink11]
Just imagine what would happen if you still had the crummydore [bigwhistle]
Full body cavity search I suspect.


I made a few stupid braindead mistakes a few years ago by speeding and once not stopping at a stop sign in the middle of nowhere and I ended up just having 1 demerit point left, I drove pretty nervously for 2 years until I got some points back and I have been super careful ever since.
I have never been in a position where I have only 1 point left. I doubt Mrs Pickles is in that position as well.

Interestingly, I know a fellow who was. Did it slow him down? No. He tried to justify speeding in a grain truck. "Have to keep up with the grain as it's harvested." he said. Truth is the farmer didn't have enough trucks on the job. This fellow I know, had he been caught, would have argued and believed it wasn't his fault.

[DiscoMick]

I laugh when people speed past me and then get booked.

[trout1105]

I have never been in a position where I have only 1 point left. I doubt Mrs Pickles is in that position as well.

Like I said what I did was Stupid and double demerits didn't help much either.

[Strop]

I may have been somewhat harsh But speeding is not only a crime it has been proved to cause accidents and deaths.
Try telling a parent of a child that has been run down by a speeding car that speeding is not that serious and the coppers are just using it as an excuse to raise revenue[bigwhistle]
We all know that speeding is dangerous and we all know it is illegal and yet many of us still speed.
I myself am NO angel in this regard and I have been busted on a few occasions that have cost me money and demerit points that left me feeling stupid for speeding in the first place.

Sorry have to STRONGLY disagree. Dangerous Speeds are a problem. Speed is an issue in all crashes. The issue is what is dangerous or inappropriate. Australia is the most confusing country to drive in with our ever changing speed limits and I would suggest, in many cases inappropriate speed limits.

The child argument is the one used to emotively support your argument - over used. It is used when you run out of facts. In NSW 40 km speed limits for schools were introduced and there had NEVER been a fatality in the designated zones prior to its introduction. I will have to find the data again but not sure if any accidents at all in those areas but it was argued it was about safety. A RTA employee actually pointed this out before it was introduced.

Another problem is speed limits at roadworks. They can be there for months with nothing being done. All it does is teach you to ignore them.

How many times have you seen roads that were 100km/h and then a new road opens next to them and now they are only safe to drive at 80 km/h. This is about traffic management not safety in relation to speed.

Drive down the many expressways in NSW and you see the 110 speed limit go to 100 or 90 with no discernible change in road conditions. You will also see roads where the speed limit is reduced to allegedly reduce accidents. Especially on some roads liked by our 2 wheel friends. Lowering the speed limit does nothing to fix the accident rate there only actively enforcing speed limits does that. Inappropriate speeds will still result in accidents but everyone else might be exceeding the speed limit but still be safe.

I have just driven from Louth to Wlcannia today on a gravel road and my speeds varied from 30 - 100 km/h, yet there are many roads where I am restricted to 80 where a relaxed 100 is easy and SAFE.

Also remember the physics. Crash damage is about the dissipation of energy. Not picking on heavy vehicles but the physics. Car 2 tonnes. Truck 40 tonnes. The truck has 20 times the energy to dissipate yet is deemed safe to travel at the same speed. Legislators make decisions that come from sometimes inappropriate sources. I can recall a road safety expert from a Vic University arguing for 80 Km speed limit maximum. Unfortunately looking at his past he had had road trauma impact on his life. Is the opinion scientific or emotive?

Could go on more.....

Sorry, but as an ex-walloper who worked many years in this area, has attended more than his fair share of horrible incidents, speed limits have become a joke and their enforcement an embarrassment.

[RANDLOVER]

[QUOTE=Strop;2722602]Sorry have to STRONGLY disagree. Dangerous Speeds are a problem. Speed is an issue in all crashes. The issue is what is dangerous or inappropriate.......

If memory serves I think I'm pro'ly quoting someone from the forum when I say, "speed is always a factor in an accident, as two stationary object's can't collide". Speed limits are made to cater to the lowest common denominator, a form of road borne communism, and take no account of, vehicle characteristics, weight, brakes, driver's age, ability, vision/night vision, reaction times, etc. If they weren't, the signs would all be digital and change with weather conditions, visibility, traffic congestion ahead, etc.

The state of the roads are a disgrace, especially country roads, I'm talking 100 kph highways vs 100kph free-ways, that have puddles/pools on them that can easily wrench the steering wheel out of a person's hands, and or blind oncoming traffic with the spray/splash. Some of the road builders should probably be in jail for causing accidents, actually I found the best road builders are the dirt road guys, they can't afford to have poor drainage softening their roads. Perhaps tar road builders should do an apprenticeship on dirt roads for a few years?

[Pickles2]

Strop, I think I may've pressed a wrong button relative to your post, so this is just to say, I'm with you 100%,....Thanks for taking the time to write the words!
Pickles.

[Clip]

Surely you haven't been sucked in by the "Every K over is a killer" malarkey...
Never has there been a bigger insult to our intelligence than this slogan! Makes me laugh too when travelling on a regular 60 zone for past 20 years, only to find one day that it's gone up to 70k zone with absolutely no change to conditions etc. So yesterday travelling at 61k/h was a killer, but now for some reason, I can do another 10k/h before I (or my speed) becomes a killer!

Just on the subject of roadworthyness, I know in Qld that unroadworthy vehicles are a significant contributor to accident stats. But strap yourselves in fellow Qld because just informed on Friday that yearly RWC are coming soon.

[biggin]

More red tape! That should raise a few more dollars.

[Mick_Marsh]

Just on the subject of roadworthyness, I know in Qld that unroadworthy vehicles are a significant contributor to accident stats. But strap yourselves in fellow Qld because just informed on Friday that yearly RWC are coming soon.
I remember seeing some statistics on accidents and roadworthiness of the vehicle involved between the states. It showed there was not much difference in the statistics between SA (no roadworthies) and NSW (annual roadworthies)

But, hey, don't let me stop you (you being Queensland, not you personnally). I can see, in the future, car ownership in Queensland will only be affordable by the privileged few.

[V8Ian]

Just on the subject of roadworthyness, I know in Qld that unroadworthy vehicles are a significant contributor to accident stats.
Can you give any evidence to support your claim?

[DeeJay]

The 40 zones are usually placed around schools here in WA to protect the kids, I am not sure if that is also the case in Vic.

Yes, but in this case the "kids" are adults as the zone is around Holmesglen Tafe & the local shopping strip.
It is after a downhill run & a very controversial speed camera as it gains one of the highest income of all cameras in Vic
You would be unlikely to see an unattended child there - I never have.
The reason it is controversial? Warrigal road is a major arterial in Melb. Attached pic of the intersection ( cameras since upgraded from Red light to multi red & speed) the camera is below the Maccas sign & 40kph zone extends beyond the rail bridge and it was never a accident hot spot prior.
Would you think doing 60 along here is dangerous? The downhill slope is a bit hard to gauge from the pic..
129952

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/the-rags-to-riches-tale-of-the-chadstone-speed-cameras-20170304-guqp3p.html

No Cookies | Herald Sun (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/leader/news/chadstone-speed-camera-is-top-earner-in-victoria-in-last-three-months-of-2014/news-story/5328eb80a771a1712d03c61b006aa0a6)

[Mick_Marsh]

Yes, but in this case the "kids" are adults as the zone is around Holmesglen Tafe & the local shopping strip.
It is after a downhill run & a very controversial speed camera as it gains one of the highest income of all cameras in Vic
You would be unlikely to see an unattended child there - I never have.
The reason it is controversial? Warrigal road is a major arterial in Melb. Attached pic of the intersection ( cameras since upgraded from Red light to multi red & speed) the camera is below the Maccas sign & 40kph zone extends beyond the rail bridge and it was never a accident hot spot prior.
Would you think doing 60 along here is dangerous? The downhill slope is a bit hard to gauge from the pic..
129952

The rags to riches tale of the Chadstone speed cameras (http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/the-rags-to-riches-tale-of-the-chadstone-speed-cameras-20170304-guqp3p.html)

No Cookies | Herald Sun (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/leader/news/chadstone-speed-camera-is-top-earner-in-victoria-in-last-three-months-of-2014/news-story/5328eb80a771a1712d03c61b006aa0a6)
Interesting articles. just supports the premise speeding fines are just a form of indirect taxation.

[Pickles2]

Yes, but in this case the "kids" are adults as the zone is around Holmesglen Tafe & the local shopping strip.
It is after a downhill run & a very controversial speed camera as it gains one of the highest income of all cameras in Vic
You would be unlikely to see an unattended child there - I never have.
The reason it is controversial? Warrigal road is a major arterial in Melb. Attached pic of the intersection ( cameras since upgraded from Red light to multi red & speed) the camera is below the Maccas sign & 40kph zone extends beyond the rail bridge and it was never a accident hot spot prior.
Would you think doing 60 along here is dangerous? The downhill slope is a bit hard to gauge from the pic..
129952

The rags to riches tale of the Chadstone speed cameras (http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/the-rags-to-riches-tale-of-the-chadstone-speed-cameras-20170304-guqp3p.html)

No Cookies | Herald Sun (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/leader/news/chadstone-speed-camera-is-top-earner-in-victoria-in-last-three-months-of-2014/news-story/5328eb80a771a1712d03c61b006aa0a6)
Thank You, Yes, that is "the spot"!
Pickles.

[NavyDiver]

Interesting articles. just supports the premise speeding fines are just a form of indirect taxation.

Not like the 60 or so who claimed the spped camera are faulty whom were found to all have been actually speeding? (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/leader/south-east/more-than-60-drivers-query-samespeed-fines-on-peninsula-link/news-story/1e69b13e1b13f56b5fac3aa353a03844)

It is an optional tax. Speed and you pay it- I did [thumbsupbig] ( no more for me) Smoke and you pay it, Drink wine, beer, spirits we pay it.

Blaming the govenment for our choices is not in my view at all reasonable. I am no saint. Know for some rather high speed long runs on a motor bike as well as megga high speed run in a Skyhawk once

[B]2003-2012 Fatalities and serious injuries Over the last ten years on average:


47 pedestrians were killed in Victoria each year
more than 690 pedestrians were seriously injured in Victoria each year.


Stats below however suggest it is a form of almost euthinasia with most 70+ year olds hogging the fatality lists with over 33% [bigsad].

Pedestrian statistics - TAC - Transport Accident Commission (http://www.tac.vic.gov.au/road-safety/statistics/summaries/pedestrian-statistics)They also show a significant reduction after the introduction of 40kph zones

I would be very happy to see higher speed limits on many roads. Not near or around schools as honestly the few but highly noticeable pathetic and selfish drivers I see often at schools need much more than a little fine. Voluntry tax people [bighmmm] Star Weekly | Police catch speeding drivers near schools My tin foil hat is on for the feed back :) (http://www.starweekly.com.au/news/police-catch-speeding-drivers-near-schools/)

[cuppabillytea]

Guess what Pickles? I agree with you this time. Hows that?
Speed limits should not be set by Governments but by a Standards Commission.
Fines are an utterly inequitable form of punishment.
The points system could do with an overhaul as well.
While we're at it: Speed humps should be eradicated. The most ridiculously illogical device for traffic calming.

:soapbox:

[cuppabillytea]

Not like the 60 or so who claimed the spped camera are faulty whom were found to all have been actually speeding? (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/leader/south-east/more-than-60-drivers-query-samespeed-fines-on-peninsula-link/news-story/1e69b13e1b13f56b5fac3aa353a03844)

It is an optional tax. Speed and you pay it- I did [thumbsupbig] ( no more for me) Smoke and you pay it, Drink wine, beer, spirits we pay it.

Blaming the govenment for our choices is not in my view at all reasonable. I am no saint. Know for some rather high speed long runs on a motor bike as well as megga high speed run in a Skyhawk once

[B]2003-2012 Fatalities and serious injuries Over the last ten years on average:


47 pedestrians were killed in Victoria each year
more than 690 pedestrians were seriously injured in Victoria each year.


Stats below however suggest it is a form of almost euthinasia with most 70+ year olds hogging the fatality lists with over 33% [bigsad].

Pedestrian statistics - TAC - Transport Accident Commission (http://www.tac.vic.gov.au/road-safety/statistics/summaries/pedestrian-statistics)They also show a significant reduction after the introduction of 40kph zones

I would be very happy to see higher speed limits on many roads. Not near or around schools as honestly the few but highly noticeable pathetic and selfish drivers I see often at schools need much more than a little fine. Voluntry tax people [bighmmm] Star Weekly | Police catch speeding drivers near schools My tin foil hat is on for the feed back :) (http://www.starweekly.com.au/news/police-catch-speeding-drivers-near-schools/)

I sometimes wonder what the Statistics would be if every street or road was at the bottom of a 60 Meter precipice rimmed by the curb, and pedestrian crossings were populated by nasty little Trolls who like pushing people off.

[DiscoMick]

Guess what Pickles? I agree with you this time. Hows that?
Speed limits should not be set by Governments but by a Standards Commission.
Fines are an utterly inequitable form of punishment.
The points system could do with an overhaul as well.
While we're at it: Speed humps should be eradicated. The most ridiculously illogical device for traffic calming.

:soapbox:
Aren't speed limits set by committees of representatives of police, ambos, firies, main roads, local councils and others?

[cuppabillytea]

Aren't speed limits set by committees of representatives of police, ambos, firies, main roads, local councils and others?

A Camel is a Horse designed by a Committee.

Speed limitation is really a job for experts, not for a gaggle of opinionated Gees.

Example: The speed limit in Balmain and half of Rozelle is 40 Ks. In the other half of Rozelle, it's 50 Ks, despite conditions being identical. In Liberty St Stanmore (Where nobody dares go faster than 30Ks} it's 60 Ks despite even worse conditions.
Do you get my drift?

[trout1105]

Do you get my drift?

No "Drifting" here Mate . I stick to the speed limits [bigrolf]

[Eevo]

No "Drifting" here Mate . I stick to the speed limits [bigrolf]


can easily drift and not break the speed limit [bigrolf]

[DiscoMick]

A Camel is a Horse designed by a Committee.

Speed limitation is really a job for experts, not for a gaggle of opinionated Gees.

Example: The speed limit in Balmain and half of Rozelle is 40 Ks. In the other half of Rozelle, it's 50 Ks, despite conditions being identical. In Liberty St Stanmore (Where nobody dares go faster than 30Ks} it's 60 Ks despite even worse conditions.
Do you get my drift?
Yes, and I know there are many inconsistencies, but engineers do try to design roads for particular speeds, so council and main roads engineers should have some clues about the safe speeds for particular roads.
Mind you, they screw up some times, and there are also other factors related to safety.
Another factor is that vehicle brakes are improving all the time, so motorists drive faster, thinking they can still pull up in time.
Another issue is if pedestrians are likely to move onto a particular road, which can be unpredictable. Fencing the median strip seems to be one response.

[RANDLOVER]

can easily drift and not break the speed limit [bigrolf]

The only drifting I do these days while driving, is drifting off to sleep.

[cuppabillytea]

can easily drift and not break the speed limit [bigrolf]

When you're on Ice perhaps? [bigwhistle]

[Eevo]

When you're on Ice perhaps? [bigwhistle]

you have much to learn young padawan

[Wraithe]

Speeding, school zones....


NT lowered there speed limit, many years ago... Road toll increased after that... I think they upped the limit but not to its original...
Its really not the speed that kills or maims, its the sudden stop that does that...
One of our problems is the lack of experience at speed, the lack of attention to others on the road and the lack of due care, so at least one of those three applies to everyone and that spells a problem...
You could travel certain roads at speed and have no problems as long as you respected the areas you needed to be cautious of and slow down in areas of traffic, but those days have been gone for at least 20+ years...
(ie, 19 hours to Adelaide from Perth), Can't do that now...

School zones, there is no safe speed through a school zone... 25 or 40 or 100, makes no difference...

Reason, child got hit in southern suburbs of Perth, around the 1990's.. estimated car speed, 5kph... Dead, instantly...
Police office friend, lost his best friend, when hit by car in school zone, CCTV camera showed that vehicle was doing approximately 7 kph(around 1998)...
A child in a country town, hit by 4x4, Police doing speed check clocked car at 11 kph, child dead instantly...
Child hit by car at 83 kph, in school zone and Police caught driver, child had gravel rash burns on legs, arms and side of face, bragged about doing a double flip(also friend of my niece), go figure hey!

Its not the speed, its the amount of children coming out without due care and every parent wanting to park at the gate to get children, thus you have a mass of potential accidents...
Is there a solution, probably not but my advice is, more children and traffic, the slower you should go...

[trout1105]

I have a name for the times that the kids are getting dropped off and picked up, I call it "Mad Mother Hour" and do my very best to stay well away from any school zones at those times.

[Wraithe]

I have a name for the times that the kids are getting dropped off and picked up, I call it "Mad Mother Hour" and do my very best to stay well away from any school zones at those times.

and the main street of town or the shops for that matter, between 3 and 4.30, town is a no go zone for me, no parking, no sidewalk so I no go...

[Clip]

Can you give any evidence to support your claim?
Can only say it was from a source that works with the dept. They said happening soon, but I should have clarified just how soon.
Probably not a bad idea, if nothing else it will give the industry a bit of a boost and that can only lead to a few more jobs hopefully. It's not like the inspection fee goes straight into govt coffers. But then I'm not sure how it works in other states.

[V8Ian]

Can only say it was from a source that works with the dept. They said happening soon, but I should have clarified just how soon.
Probably not a bad idea, if nothing else it will give the industry a bit of a boost and that can only lead to a few more jobs hopefully. It's not like the inspection fee goes straight into govt coffers. But then I'm not sure how it works in other states.
The evidence I want to see is that which supports your statement that defective vehicles contribute significantly to crashes. Queensland has always stated that annual inspections detect fewer defects than random roadside inspections, and that mechanical issues are, statistically, an insignificant contribution to crashes.

[Mick_Marsh]

The evidence I want to see is that which supports your statement that defective vehicles contribute significantly to crashes. Queensland has always stated that annual inspections detect fewer defects than random roadside inspections, and that mechanical issues are, statistically, an insignificant contribution to crashes.
I think that is the case for all over Australia, Ian.

[V8Ian]

Cheers Mick, you've partially restored my faith in my sanity. [biggrin]

[DiscoMick]

The main inspection issue I see around Brisbane is one-eyed vehicles because the street lights mean drivers don't realise they have lost one headlight.

[Clip]

The evidence I want to see is that which supports your statement that defective vehicles contribute significantly to crashes. Queensland has always stated that annual inspections detect fewer defects than random roadside inspections, and that mechanical issues are, statistically, an insignificant contribution to crashes.
My apologies, I thought you were referring to the annual inspections. There is evidence out there, although what I recall would be old data now. Without going back all through all my files etc, there was a 2000 study in Aus that I could lay my hands on that in summary stated:
"In-depth crash studies tend to indicate that the contribution of defects to crashes is under-reported by Police. The current NSW Crashed Vehicles Study appears to be finding similar results to in-depth studies carried out in the USA and Germany. Those studies, covering vehicles operating in jurisdictions with periodic vehicle inspections, found that vehicle factors, particularly defects, were definitely causal, possibly causal or contributory in at least 12% of all crashes. The USA study found much higher rates with older vehicles but the age of the study (1977) and the small sample sizes of older vehicles mean caution should be exercised in the application of these results to present-day Australia.

Cost-effectiveness studies concerning inspection programs have tended to be rather vague and speculative. Given the same data, organisations have sometimes come to diametrically opposed conclusions. This situation probably results from uncertainty about both the contribution of defects to crashes and the influence of inspection programs on these defects. Subject to this uncertainty (and continuing the speculation) , the contribution of periodic car inspections to crashes is likely to be a few percent. Given the overall cost of car crashes in Australia, a saving of, say, 2% can translate into well over $100 million per year. There is scope to operate effective inspection programs within this figure.

Further analysis of the NSW Crashed Vehicles Study data should help to answer several questions related to the contribution of defects to crashes and the influence of periodic vehicle inspections on these defects".

Perhaps my use of 'significantly' was overstating it. From memory there were other studies that I looked at from Sth Africa and UK, but it's too long ago now for me to remember details sorry.

[Mick_Marsh]

Cheers Mick, you've partially restored my faith in my sanity. [biggrin]
Have you considered I might be a loopy looney too?

[RANDLOVER]

Speeding, school zones....

Reason, child got hit in southern suburbs of Perth, around the 1990's.. estimated car speed, 5kph... Dead, instantly...
Police office friend, lost his best friend, when hit by car in school zone, CCTV camera showed that vehicle was doing approximately 7 kph(around 1998)...
A child in a country town, hit by 4x4, Police doing speed check clocked car at 11 kph, child dead instantly...
Child hit by car at 83 kph, in school zone and Police caught driver, child had gravel rash burns on legs, arms and side of face, bragged about doing a double flip(also friend of my niece), go figure hey!

Big difference btwn being struck by a vehicle and being run over by one. However in both cases, one is unlikely to be wearing clean underwear.


Edit: Spelling.

[cuppabillytea]

Have you considered I might be a loopy looney too?

I think you are both quite sane. Hee hee hah hah. [thumbsupbig]

[V8Ian]

Thanks for your faith, Billy.

Bon Jovi - Keep The Faith - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZQyVUTcpM4)

[Oli]

I agree with you Pickles, my wife just copped a $190 fine for doing 51 in a 40 zone on the northern beaches of Sydney. She drives the road to work every day for the last 7 years and has never been fined, she knows the spot and always slows down in time. She is a careful driver, far more cautious that me, in fact I don't think she has had a fine in 10 years.

[charles fisher]

Once upon a time anyone waiting on the side of the road to ambush you and take your money would be locked up as a bandit!

[bnicho]

This is me doing 46kph in a 40kph zone. This was on the Monash freeway at 3am on a Wednesday morning, with 40kph speed limit displayed on the gantries.

Show me why there was a 40kph limit?? No roadworks, no cones, no workers, no plant, nothing for miles. I'd given up going 40 as there seemed to be absolutely no reason for it.

The only other car on the road was a colleague a few hundred metres in front who copped a 47kph fine.

I got off by writing a contrite letter. In the People's Republic of Victoria the letter generally works for less than 10kph over and no traffic offences in the last five (might be three) years.

Cheers,

[London Boy]

Actually, speeding is not a criminal offence, it is a traffic offence.
Depends on the state. In Victoria, there are two kinds of criminal offence: indictable offences (including serious indictable offences, are tried in County and Supreme Courts) and summary offences (tried in the Magistrate's Court). Traffic offences are a kind of summary offence. Victoria doesn't have a thing called a 'crime' except in casual usage. In Qld, there are crimes, misdemeanours, simple offences (also called summary offences) and regulatory offences.

[Classic88]

In the UK the police have a 10% + 2 rule of thumb e.g. if a driver isn't driving dangerously under the conditions they won't be penalised for travelling up to 46mph in a 40mph zone, 57mph in a 5-mph zone etc. This is due to the wildly implausible theory that it might be better for people to be watching the road around them rather than have their eyes fearfully glued to the speedometer. The exception is motorways where despite the 70mph limit, the de facto accepted speed is around 85mph.

Of course, I don't get demerit points since I still have my UK driving licence.

[SunriseBoy]

The country is asphyxiating in a blizzard of crack cocaine and our Fearless Leaders are standing on the faces of the average punter for this kind of crapola.
If they put it 10% of the effort into really fighting the drug lords, as they do on this speed fiction, drugs would be off the street inside a month.

[barney]

A mate of mine got pinged in Sydney's northern beaches on a "student free day". It was the beginning of school holidays, his kids were at home, he forgot about the student free day. He got done outside Narrabeen public school 60/40 and then again at Narrabeen high school 70/40. Problem was that as well as being a student free day, it was also the friday of a long weekend, which meant double demerits. He lost 12 points that day and only hung on to his license by the skin of his teeth.

[Wolfriver]

I haven't read ALL the comments but having been in court for six 'offences' over the last three years I feel 'qualified' to reply...

Firstly; speed cameras/fines are NOT and have NEVER been about 'road safety'. During my most recent court case I submitted to the court a study carried out in Australia demonstrating that speed cameras and a strict enforcement regime is more likely to CAUSE accidents than prevent them.

I even asked the cop on the stand whether he thought it was safe to constantly take your eyes OFF the road to regularly check your speed. He agreed it was an unsafe practice.

All the studies demonstrate that the only accidents where speed was a contributing factor were cases of EXCESSIVE speed, NEVER 5, 10, or even 15% over the posted limit, for which we are fined and revenue generated for the beurocraps.

In Europe they trialled an experiment where they removed ALL speed limits. Guess what? Accidents DECREASED and people actually drove SLOWER and to the conditions instead of the posted 'suggested' speed limit.

Secondly; All speed cameras used in this country are ILLEGAL under commonwealth Law because EVERY device used to measure things for trade, commerce or legal matters MUST have an individual pattern approval number stamped on or permanently fixed to the measuring device under the National Measurements Act 1960. Commonwealth Law over-rides State Law. NO speed camera or radar has one because they are nto considered accurate enough by the National Measurements Institute (the body who grants pattern approval numbers).

Thirdly; In Qld the Transport Operations Road Use Management (TORUM) Act is an illegal act that cannot be enforced in any court of law for one simple reason... There is NO proclamation in existence for the Act as required under the rules of Parliament.
In Qld they even went so far as to remove section 2 of the amended act, the Commencement. ALL acts MUST have a section 2, which is always titled the Commencement, saying this act will commence when it is proclaimed to be an actual enforceable Act by the Queen (or the GG).
Most states are in the same boat regarding this.

A judge I had once was VERY interested when I showed her the original 1995 TORUM Act and compared it to the amended 2001 TORUM Act with section 2 removed.
(She ended up looking for and eventually finding any excuse other than that to dismiss the case... "out you go Mr Wildwood, before you break something...")



In saying all that, no matter how much 'Law' you have behind you, no matter how many precedents from the High Court to the Supreme Court you submit, it ALWAYS comes down to how much honour/integrity the magistrate has.

In my 6 cases, twice I was assigned a 'special' magistrate in a 'special' court with no witnesses.
In both of these matters the Magistrate openly practiced law from the bench (illegal) and openly went against the very principles of fairness and law... one discussed with the police prosecutor IN COURT how "to get out of this one" (he had been specially brought down from Brisbane to 'deal with me'), and the other told me to my face that 1, I was guilty until I proved myself innocent!, ... and 2, I had to prove to the court that a proclamation for the Act did NOT exist, not the police prove that it did! ...as anyone versed in even the basics of law knows, it is impossible to prove a negative.

In one other case (Beaudesert) the Mag also practiced law from the bench, colluded IN COURT with the plaintiff (police) and refused to accept my evidence proving the camera was incorrectly set up (on a downgrade and with a large reflective sign directly behind my vehicle)... both causes for instant dismissal of the accuracy of the device as stated in the actual Operator's Manual for the device.

For the remaining three matters I was lucky enough to get a judge with a shred of honour and won them all. Yet, despite winning the matters, in each case the judge refused to grant me any recompense for my time. Even though the police lost, they got paid to be there while I did not!

To sum up: The courts are a sheering shed, to enter them is a roll of the dice. And speed cameras are a massive cash cow, generating literally hundreds of millions each year for each state. The vast majority simply 'pay up', because the option is to go to court and even if you win you lose. Despite winning three cases, I lost... all the time, research, preparation, study and multiple 'appearances' only to be adjourned while the Police Prostitutor tried to find a way around my arguments... gone, with no financial recompense as required under common law...

It is theft, plain and simple, and like all theft creates societal problems...
... If some poor sod loses their license for drifting a couple of Ks over the 'limit' too many times, the system doesn't care if he loses his job, his marriage, his kids grow up fatherless and turn to drugs and crime, none of it matters, only that the $$$ keep rolling in from the sheep.

[AK83]

.... so she's copped THREE points for being 12ks over, 52 in a 40 zone (why it's a 40 zone, divided road etc,..I don't know!,,she has been in the process of slowing down, but obviously, not quickly enough.
....

For those that don't know the area:
It's downhill, it's within about 100m from two major fast food outlets, a hotel, a dangerous intersection controlled by lights! .. and a major school .. and you don't know why it's a 40km/h zone?

It seems you know the area quite well, and yet the driver of the vehicle still didn't have the presence of mind to slow down before getting into this zone as opposed to slamming on the brakes at the signpost! [bigwhistle]

While I avoid that area like the plague now, many years back in my previous job as a regular user of this area, I've seen far too many 'idiot accidents' at this intersection where people are either inattentive or reckless in trying to beat the traffic lights .. or both!

With all due respect to yourself and your wife, I'd say it's not only a fair cop, but an appropriate one as well.
The issue here is attentiveness, alertness and being aware of what One is doing whilst driving.
Your infringement was almost definitely due to the fixed speed camera at the lights, and not due to a hidden camera car, or police activity, so any argument that police presence in this situation is inappropriate. The camera is clearly visible and should have been the deterrent

ps. in the last 25 odd years, I've only had two speeding fines which were at 1km/h over the limit both on the same day due to the new oversized tyres I'd just got on my (then) Rodeo ute. I calculated the under reading of the speedo incorrectly, pre GPS days.

Is it a lot to ask of drivers to be aware of what they're doing whilst they're driving?

[Saitch]

In the UK the police have a 10% + 2 rule of thumb e.g. if a driver isn't driving dangerously under the conditions they won't be penalised for travelling up to 46mph in a 40mph zone, 57mph in a 5-mph zone etc. This is due to the wildly implausible theory that it might be better for people to be watching the road around them rather than have their eyes fearfully glued to the speedometer. The exception is motorways where despite the 70mph limit, the de facto accepted speed is around 85mph.

Of course, I don't get demerit points since I still have my UK driving licence.

When I was cruising around the UK in '96 I noticed two or three police standing on an M1 overpass. When I stopped up the road a bit I asked the publican what the go was with police. Apparently, from that particular bridge, they had a good view down the highway both ways and could see "Reckless" behavior. He said that up the road a bit there would have been a police car on a ramp waiting for a call from the bridge boys. I didn't see the car though. The ramps were purpose built for acceleration I think. Maybe wrong there though.

Mine host told me the same thing with the speed limit. Drive sensibly to the conditions and away you go. It made me understand why I was always getting overtaken at my 70 mph[biggrin]

Sat on 80-90 the rest of my time after that and never had any issues with police or other drivers.

[Pickles2]

For those that don't know the area:
It's downhill, it's within about 100m from two major fast food outlets, a hotel, a dangerous intersection controlled by lights! .. and a major school .. and you don't know why it's a 40km/h zone?

It seems you know the area quite well, and yet the driver of the vehicle still didn't have the presence of mind to slow down before getting into this zone as opposed to slamming on the brakes at the signpost! [bigwhistle]

While I avoid that area like the plague now, many years back in my previous job as a regular user of this area, I've seen far too many 'idiot accidents' at this intersection where people are either inattentive or reckless in trying to beat the traffic lights .. or both!

With all due respect to yourself and your wife, I'd say it's not only a fair cop, but an appropriate one as well.
The issue here is attentiveness, alertness and being aware of what One is doing whilst driving.
Your infringement was almost definitely due to the fixed speed camera at the lights, and not due to a hidden camera car, or police activity, so any argument that police presence in this situation is inappropriate. The camera is clearly visible and should have been the deterrent

ps. in the last 25 odd years, I've only had two speeding fines which were at 1km/h over the limit both on the same day due to the new oversized tyres I'd just got on my (then) Rodeo ute. I calculated the under reading of the speedo incorrectly, pre GPS days.

Is it a lot to ask of drivers to be aware of what they're doing whilst they're driving?
You are entitled to your opinion,....as I am entitled to mine.
Like I said, we do know the area, we didn't deny that we did "the crime"...and that we will "do the time",...well of course we will, because we've paid the fine.
Couldn't care less whether it's close to fast food outlets, hotels etc etc, or where or what sort of camera was there. My wife and I ALWAYS drive safely in terms of conditions....simply because we were flashed by a camera does not prove otherwise. I've already said we knew it was a 40 zone! There are also many reasons why that camera is one of the highest grossing cameras in Melbourne, and if you choose to ignore those reasons, well of course, that's fine too! There has been mention in this thread of others who are familiar with the location of this particular camera who have issues with it.
I maintain that in this particular case, whilst we are not unduly concerned by it, the "legal" consequences of what I call a very minor infringement could far outweigh the crime in some circumstances.
But of course, in terms of your post "the issue here is attentiveness, alertness and being aware of what one is doing whilst driving". I do get that, I guess it's unfortunate that we can't all be perfect, all of the time.
Pickles.

[cuppabillytea]

I guess it's unfortunate that we can't all be perfect, all of the time.
Pickles.

I can.[biggrin][thumbsupbig]

[Classic88]

When I was cruising around the UK in '96 I noticed two or three police standing on an M1 overpass. When I stopped up the road a bit I asked the publican what the go was with police. Apparently, from that particular bridge, they had a good view down the highway both ways and could see "Reckless" behavior. He said that up the road a bit there would have been a police car on a ramp waiting for a call from the bridge boys. I didn't see the car though. The ramps were purpose built for acceleration I think. Maybe wrong there though.

Mine host told me the same thing with the speed limit. Drive sensibly to the conditions and away you go. It made me understand why I was always getting overtaken at my 70 mph[biggrin]

Sat on 80-90 the rest of my time after that and never had any issues with police or other drivers.

Yes, you're pretty safe if you keep it under 100. It's 'policing by consent' ie don't be a dickhead and you'll be treated like a responsible adult who, like everyone, makes mistakes occasionally but doesn't do so deliberately. It's also why our coppers don't need to carry guns.

[AK83]

....
But of course, in terms of your post "the issue here is attentiveness, alertness and being aware of what one is doing whilst driving". I do get that, I guess it's unfortunate that we can't all be perfect, all of the time.
Pickles.

I don't think it's a matter of being perfect. I'm probably the perfect example of not being attentive many times, and certainly imperfect as well.
But, being attentive isn't hard to do whilst driving.
The reason why this issue is a major deal with me is that I'm still living with the consequences of an inattentive driver sideswiping me whilst doing my job(motorcycle courier) 20 years back.
Broken leg, broken wrist, cracked open forehead(being slammed into a parked car at 60k/h) and my main issue, is my smashed open knee. He gets off with a fine and a demerit point. I can't walk more than 100m without the knee seizing up!
I've had more inattentive drivers knocking me off those bikes for 8+ years than most people have drinks .. or speeding fines.
There was no speed involved, just the simple point that the van driver swerved to get across 3 lanes without thinking to use that side mirror first.

Now, I still drive but a much larger vehicle, and it's still the same issue of a lack of attention by drivers basically everywhere!
I have no issue smashing into the rear of an inattentive driver that thinks my braking zone is their right to cut into, but the office issues involved make it a pain to deal with .. so I HAVE to avoid those idiots.
What this means tho is that at the delivery point I then have to deal with the physical issues of that avoidance by having to manually shift the 1 ton pallet that shifted due to my avoidance of that rear-ender.

I did take note of your comment that you and your wife are careful drivers, and have no doubt that you are. Your post for some reason seems to indicate that point. Double that carefulness, and you probably get an understanding of my driving style! If you ever notice a particularly slow moving Woolies truck up the hill to that intersection, in all probability it'll be me! :p
That'll be me trying to protect the load.

Funnily too: Last night I sat watching some TV(rare for me, and I did fall asleep) .. but whilst I was awake for a bit I took notice of an ad for a Nissan vehicle(SUV type thing I think) .. and the main selling point was (something along the lines of) ...

"forget about the distractions going on around you because this Nissan <blahblah> has collision avoidance and the cruise control type that automatically adjusts speed down to slow and speed up as others around you are.
I blurted out some unprintable expletive, and then began to wonder .. is this how we want out fellow motorists to drive around us?
Is this lack of awareness of our surroundings the way forward when it comes to driving on roads that are ever more congested.

At the rate that speed limits have been dropping over the past 50 odd years, it will be no time when those 25km/h zones in SA will be considered the fast way around!

Now I totally understand your total lack of care for the fact that there are fast food outlets or hotels in the area, and that's your choice to ignore.
But in doing so, do you also totally disregard the possibility that kids running around those fast food outlets may be fooling around and could easily step out in front you your vehicle doing only 12km/h over the posted limit?
Or that out of that hotel may be a drunk person stumbling from that divided section onto the road itself?
Maybe you and/or your wife know exactly every event that will unfold in front of you 15seconds prior to it happening?

Like I said, I think there's a good reason why that area is posted at 40h/h, and having driven that area for the better part of 20 years and having seen the carnage I'm surprised it's not 25k/h .. or cordoned off completely.

ps. while I don't live in the area myself, Holmesglen was a very large customer of ours back in my courier days. And I'd be there at many times a day .. if there wasn't an accident, and I could actually get to it that is.

[Wraithe]

You know, nearly all of the arguing here is more about keeping one in line and doing as the "powers that be" want you to do...

Fines and restrictions cause problems, no point arguing on here as one will get shot down, but open your minds and look at the effect restrictions, fines, laws, etc, have on society and peoples attitude... I can give some examples, but then it would be another subject...

If you want society and people to do the right thing, then give them the right to make there own decisions.. The crims will always be there so dont expect them to do right, but 99% of people are not crims but a lot are labelled that way because society has allowed the "Powers that be" to have control over them, thus more laws than the prisons have, more control than a slave owner had and creating more problems within our social structure as well...

If we dropped 90% of our laws, 90% of our social problems would be gone, including violence...

But hey, don't let a good idea get in the way of the Police state/Nanny state policy...

Wolfriver, well pointed out... Our laws have no benefit to safety and peace with the people, that is created by the people when they have the freedom to do so...
Bit like Canada, reducing violence by reducing restrictions...But alas, no media prints good stories, only violence from LA, Detroit, Chicago, only the violence wins out...

[Pickles2]

Well Ak, that's it,..you were the victim of a very serious, and from what could have been, by the sound of it, fatal accident, and the perpetrator gets ONE demerit point & a nominal fine,...which "time" did obviously NOT fit the "crime", which is exactly what I am trying to say in our situation.
Glad you get the idea that Wifey & I are careful drivers,..because we are,...always.
Obviously we have differing views. I'm not going to get into a discussion about speed cameras, radar, or whatever the device in question is.
We've had several fast cars, one that comes to mind being a Mercedes AMG C63,..6.2L 500HP,..VERY fast,..and safe. Well on one occasion we were in one of our favorite places, the Mallee, and we were cruising back to our accommodation, sitting on 95ks (100 zone), when sitting amongst the trees we spied as we passed, a Police Ford Territory,...... with a Radar Gun!!. There would be lucky to be a dozen cars a day on that road, but it's pretty straight, easy to do any speed you like, but with no other traffic, dead straight road, do you not think that officer could be better employed?
Pickles.

[QRS40]

Thirdly; In Qld the Transport Operations Road Use Management (TORUM) Act is an illegal act that cannot be enforced in any court of law for one simple reason... There is NO proclamation in existence for the Act as required under the rules of Parliament.
In Qld they even went so far as to remove section 2 of the amended act, the Commencement. ALL acts MUST have a section 2, which is always titled the Commencement, saying this act will commence when it is proclaimed to be an actual enforceable Act by the Queen (or the GG).
Most states are in the same boat regarding this.



Not wanting to be pernickety or inflame debate, but this is misguided. Re Proclamation itself, the commencement was on 01 July 1995- see SL No 206 of 1995 (Proclamation made on 20 June 1995). The Acts Interpretation Act specifically addresses the removal of a commencement section (See in particular s19A). Its quite common to remove it after a period of time, as its basically redundant once an act is in force.

[Wraithe]

Well Ak, that's it,..you were the victim of a very serious, and from what could have been, by the sound of it, fatal accident, and the perpetrator gets ONE demerit point & a nominal fine,...which "time" did obviously NOT fit the "crime", which is exactly what I am trying to say in our situation.
Glad you get the idea that Wifey & I are careful drivers,..because we are,...always.
Obviously we have differing views. I'm not going to get into a discussion about speed cameras, radar, or whatever the device in question is.
We've had several fast cars, one that comes to mind being a Mercedes AMG C63,..6.2L 500HP,..VERY fast,..and safe. Well on one occasion we were in one of our favorite places, the Mallee, and we were cruising back to our accommodation, sitting on 95ks (100 zone), when sitting amongst the trees we spied as we passed, a Police Ford Territory,...... with a Radar Gun!!. There would be lucky to be a dozen cars a day on that road, but it's pretty straight, easy to do any speed you like, but with no other traffic, dead straight road, do you not think that officer could be better employed?
Pickles.

But Pickles, you forgot the revenue... If we dont maintain revenue, how would we be able to afford new monuments to our wonderful leaders...

You said that well, its no longer about stopping crime and protecting the people, its about income and statistics... speeding laws are not logical when you look at the effect they have on people, the increase in offending is directly related to the increase in fines... but hey, why look at things that way when people can get on there soap box demand more restrictions and at the same time get praised for improving the revenue stream...

PS, many years ago in a country town... The local Police where part of the community, very little crime, very few traffic offences and very few crimes committed... Local police got repremanded for the low ticketing of speeders, thus they where issued with an order to have a radar trap on the highway...
I drove into town and noticed a Police car with a radar chained to roo bar and the dog in the cab was screaming... so I stopped and checked the car out, all locked up, padlock on radar and trigger tapped up...
Stopped in station to enquire and was informed, "Order to set radar trap on highway", the Sgt said, "No one told me we had to be there"...
They where our Police and we got along well, and every body helped each other and would tell the police of someone doing wrong, no need for a heavy hand...

Why cant we be like that everywhere, the Police can do a better job if they are part of the community and not trying to be outsider chasing everyone as a crim...

[randb]

Driving on the road is not a right but a privilege. I'll leave it at that.

[YOLO110]

Time for a rant!!!

I have driven for over 40 years, 30+ in the UK. Never had a speeding fine in the UK... despite driving FAST cars as they are meant to be driven on glorious twisty country roads and on the the Motorways. The UK 'divided' road limit is 70 mph (110Kph)... most people drive about 80 to 90 mph (145kph)... the Cops are not interested as it is SAFE to drive at those speeds, in modern cars on roads designed for that purpose.

By contrast, in my first 2 years back in Oz, I got 4 speeding fines! Two in Sydney, 63 and 64 kph in a 60 zone and two in Melbourne on Eastlink, doing 103 and 104 Kph in a 100 zone. That is less than 2-3 mph over the limit, a number that is actually quite hard to see on a typical Oz vehicle speedometer, often scaled up to 240 Kph!!! WHY!!!

There is ZERO benefit to road safety fining someone for that. It's just blatant revenue raising.

Oz is nuts on the roads now. Everyone is petrified of speeding, because we have cops and cameras everywhere. As as result, people 'stare' at there speedometers, instead of looking out the window for traffic hazards and anticipating traffic flow.

Have a look next time you are out there. The result is we have traffic all 'droning' along, in side by side 'formation' and tailgating. Both of these things ARE a hazard to safety... how many times do I see a car right next door to a 50T Truck, sitting there for Km after Km. And have a look at damaged cars in repair yards... most have front to rear damage... tailgating.

People are not taught how to be good safe drivers here. They are taught how to keep a car on the road and stay between lanes. There is precious little 'thinking' present and very little 'courtesy' shown to each other.... We see road rage and aggression, probably as a result of being restrained by the knowledge that 'speeding' will probably be caught and fines/points will result. We are all 'corks in a bottle', just wanting to have a bit of commonsense 'freedom' when driving, sensibly, with respect to the road laws but also in accordance to the actual traffic conditions. But we cannot. It's just so draconian.

I sold my sports car here after a year. There was NO way I could enjoy driving it as it was designed to be driven. As for huge V8 muscle cars and exotic supercars, what a waste they are in Australia! That was one reason why I now own a diesel Defender... and a 990cc VW!

Anyway! [bigwhistle]

[Classic88]

Time for a rant!!!

I have driven for over 40 years, 30+ in the UK. Never had a speeding fine in the UK... despite driving FAST cars as they are meant to be driven on glorious twisty country roads and on the the Motorways. The UK 'divided' road limit is 70 mph (110Kph)... most people drive about 80 to 90 mph (145kph)... the Cops are not interested as it is SAFE to drive at those speeds, in modern cars on roads designed for that purpose.

By contrast, in my first 2 years back in Oz, I got 4 speeding fines! Two in Sydney, 63 and 64 kph in a 60 zone and two in Melbourne on Eastlink, doing 103 and 104 Kph in a 100 zone. That is less than 2-3 mph over the limit, a number that is actually quite hard to see on a typical Oz vehicle speedometer, often scaled up to 240 Kph!!! WHY!!!

There is ZERO benefit to road safety fining someone for that. It's just blatant revenue raising.

Oz is nuts on the roads now. Everyone is petrified of speeding, because we have cops and cameras everywhere. As as result, people 'stare' at there speedometers, instead of looking out the window for traffic hazards and anticipating traffic flow.

Have a look next time you are out there. The result is we have traffic all 'droning' along, in side by side 'formation' and tailgating. Both of these things ARE a hazard to safety... how many times do I see a car right next door to a 50T Truck, sitting there for Km after Km. And have a look at damaged cars in repair yards... most have front to rear damage... tailgating.

People are not taught how to be good safe drivers here. They are taught how to keep a car on the road and stay between lanes. There is precious little 'thinking' present and very little 'courtesy' shown to each other.... We see road rage and aggression, probably as a result of being restrained by the knowledge that 'speeding' will probably be caught and fines/points will result. We are all 'corks in a bottle', just wanting to have a bit of commonsense 'freedom' when driving, sensibly, with respect to the road laws but also in accordance to the actual traffic conditions. But we cannot. It's just so draconian.

I sold my sports car here after a year. There was NO way I could enjoy driving it as it was designed to be driven. As for huge V8 muscle cars and exotic supercars, what a waste they are in Australia! That was one reason why I now own a diesel Defender... and a 990cc VW!

Anyway! [bigwhistle]

I completely agree, having also come here from the UK.

The majority of drivers (here in Sydney at least) are combination of aggressive, inattentive, indecisive and discourteous.

Having said that, I owned a V8 musclecar for four years here before buying my RRC and despite the speedo never working in all that time I didn't pick-up a single ticket because I've been driving long enough to be able to accurately judge my speed from my surroundings.

[deltajuliet]

Many years ago (1960) I used to drive an International school bus (I think it was mid to late 40s) between Robe and Kingston. The International was downright dangerous as the brakes were quite unreliable and I lost the boost a couple of times. Anyway, there was a sign as you entered Robe which said "35 MPH Please". Darned if I could ever get the old bus up to 35 but I tried. Gutless hardly described it. Speeding fines were not an issue.
We live in a different world now. By the way 25kph past a school crossing works well in SA. Most drivers do the right thing and there has never been a death on a monitored school crossing in SA. Not a bad record.

[AK83]

Pickles. I hope you understand that my comments aren't directed at you and or your wife, but they are directed at your comment that you can't understand why that small section of road is only 40k/h.
This isn't the only 'strange' 40k/h section of a major shopping/leisure/school strip in Melbourne.
Bourke road in Camberwell, Mt Alexandra Rd in Moonee Ponds .. just to name two that stand out to me when it appears that they could easily support 60k/h in quiet times.

The point of my replies is to highlight that it's easy to dismiss these 40 k/h zones as revenue raising ventures, but the underlying point is that there is so much activity on these roads at other times, that I'm convinced it has more to do with safety as the No1 priority. Revenue raising is a bonus(to the govt obviously).

And as for the deserted road situation you describe. personally I'd rather see(and or hear) of more police doing the same.
The point may well be revenue raising .. and if that revenue is from motorists breaking the law, then that means more money for whatever govt activity that I'm not paying for (in the way of additional taxes):p

My thinking is purely selfish .. if other's run that gauntlet and have the means to pay up, and give the govt an extra $100-200mil per annum, then that means about $20-40 less tax I have to pay if the govt didn't get that money every year.
But with those situations of camera cars or police hiding behind whatever cover they can to capture those errant drivers(remember while we think it's not unsafe, it's still breaking the law).
At some point if people don't get that there is a legal speed limit, and they finally get it that this hidden revenue raiser could catch them, then it becomes a part of the consciousness that they could be anywhere, and people will adjust. Hopefully!

The current public commentary recently has been about using the phone whilst driving. See this every day everywhere(being seated up high in my every day vehicle). It's just stupid!
Anyhow, part of the commentary on the topic raised the issue of drink driving and how society view it nowadays.
Back in the day it was just an annoyance, that you could drink and then drive yourself home. You could have 10 or 20 and you were fine .. but studies showed that you were not fine, and a risk to other users. Many deaths resulted.
But a generational change seems to have sunk it in, that drinking and then driving is simply uncool, not done, and unacceptable. Habits have changed, society has accepted that it's not the done thing now.

It's no different to speeding. How fast is safe? To you, maybe 110.. maybe 120 in a Merc. What about the idiot that thinks 250 is safe? Why is that point of view any different to your much lower opinion? Would you want an idiot doing 250 coming the other way and an emu of wombat pops out in front of you and they swerve a little losing control and ... well think about it.
It's not the actual situation that's important, it's the ingrained psychology that I can't just do whatever I want when I want just because I feel it's safe.

Just recently, there was a young man that got killed in a single vehicle accident up north way(can't remember exactly). No one else involved, and the road was a 'safe' one as you describe on this Mallee road. I suspect speed was the cause. Can't remember but a single vehicle accident scream out speed. What would have been safe for him? His family have lost a son, or possibly a father, or whatever.
It's not the first time, and it won't be the last time this type of story is going to be news.
And even at 100 some people just aren't safe! How do the government know this? .. especially considering the pathetic licensing policies in Aus! I'd rather see Finnish type licensing system than .. if you can park a car. Or if you can use the 10-2 steering method to control a car!

So you'd prefer to see no speed limits on our roads .. considering the morons out there driving on them?
Imagine the carnage with all those unsafe trucks(ie. Cootes petrol tankers! :p) unrestricted on those dreadful backroads!!

Personally I'd rather that they all dropped by 20k/h to make me feel safer ... that I'm not going to get pinged at 60k/h, and that maybe 40 k/h may have done less damage.

[AGRO]

Hi,

I don't whether or not I am cross threaded or not.

Accidents caused by inattention and lack of awareness really aren't accidents. Its gross negligence.

Loss of licence, impounding vehicles i.e. loss of the convenience of having the USE of a car to get around would be a far better deterrent.

The inattention derived from mobile phone use whilst driving should be rewarded by "INSTANT LOSS" of phone for a week. That would severely drive a lesson home if the Twitter or Facebook account couldn't be accessed for a while.

The shear numbers of "EYEs DOWN" drivers moving around our roads is very concerning and makes me appreciate those lonely rough remote tracks even more.

[trout1105]

If you are doing 1k or 50k over the posted limit you are breaking the law it's as simple as that, There is NO "Grey" area.
What is wrong with driving under the limit by 2k-5k after all the posted speed is a LIMIT not a TARGET and if Anyone gets busted for speeding then tough titties.
There are lots of post here about some speed limits being inappropriate in some circumstances and I agree that sometimes that is true But that doesn't give anyone the RIGHT to ignore a posted speed limit just because they think it is wrong.
If you strongly disagree with speed limits talk to your local member about it or start a petition to try to get them changed, Taking the law into your own hands by ignoring the posted speed limits is never a Win Win proposition.

[Eevo]

Loss of licence

that doesnt work, cause people just drive unlicensed.

[Spinner912]

It is not often that I find any wisdom whatsoever in the words of a politician, but one quote I heard from the ex-Premier of Queensland, Anna Bligh, fits the bill.

"Speeding is not obligatory". (Or words to that effect).

[AK83]

....

The inattention derived from mobile phone use whilst driving should be rewarded by "INSTANT LOSS" of phone for a week. ....

I'd say impound the car for a month or two minimum.

Getting a cheap phone just to stay connected is easy, hiring a car for a month a lot more $'s
And make sure that all insurance companies know that this person is a phone user whilst driving .. up their car insurance premiums.
Once people make the connection that these broken rules will cost them $$$!! I think it will eventually sink.

It's like the drink driving laws in Sweden(I think) jail for being above 0.0% from memory!!
That society has simply accepted that you just don't drink and then drive.


that doesnt work, cause people just drive unlicensed.

Why I'm not a big fan of anti surveillance proponents!
Generally I don't care for them one way or the other, but until something happens to them and (lets say) surveillance footage helps to redress their issue, they just don't get it.

I'm all for more cameras detecting more errant drivers.

I'd love to see a system where real time cameras detect an unregistered vehicle, and track it's course, and police are alerted and estimate it future course with the view to locate it and stop it from any further progress.
Of course that means that I'm also being monitored as well .. so my right to privacy is being infringed upon.
Like I care! I'm not doing anything wrong .. but the theory goes that I have something to fear?

[john taylor]

As a HGV driving instructor here in the UK, I spend every day, repeating myself and getting students.....not to obey the speed limit, but to read the road signs. They can be fairly fluid, and local councils can and do, change them on a whim, normally after a few emails from a "concerned citizen", thats how it tends to work here anyway.
IN this case, you stated that you knew the speed limit had changed on that stretch of road , but it was still ignored because your wife did not get down from 60 quick enough! Whatever way you dress that up, that is just bad driving! I agree that points and a fine are probably out of place here, I would suggest that the authorities take his as a reason to give your wife some training instead of just an easily paid fine. In the UK, its happening all the time, "Driver Awareness Courses" are being handed out as an option for many offences, even down to just bumping someone up the backside.
The govt charge £120, rather that the mandatory £60 for speeding, but you get no points and no mark on your license.
Its a good way to start the massive retraining of people who obviously, have forgotten what they learned on their test, and spend more time trying to justify bad driving rather than correcting it. It does not matter what the limit is, or what the law is, we live in a democracy and agree to abide by laws for the greater good, in this country now, "Innapropriate speed" is being used in court cases, ie 30mph near a school, but anyone with a brain knows that they should be travelling a lot slower than that, if that is successful, then the charge is "driving without due care and attention" not speeding.

[Eevo]

i would prefer to see personal insurance on a person licence and not the car.
i can only drive 1 car at a time.

[Eevo]

.not to obey the speed limit, but to read the road signs.


Its a good way to start the massive retraining of people who obviously, have forgotten what they learned on their test, and spend more time trying to justify bad driving rather than correcting it


i prefer to drive the conditions.

and i would like to see bi annual licence testing.

[AK83]

....
The govt charge £120, rather that the mandatory £60 for speeding, but you get no points and no mark on your license....

My belief is that unless you've been rear ended at 60k/h or knocked off your bike at any speed, and you don't feel this pain for yourself, you just won't learn that it's just uncool to do that to someone.
So a more appropriate course would be to have them sit in a car for an unspecifed time, and without their knowledge have another vehicle rammed into the rear so they understand what it feels like. Then charge them for that pleasure!



i would prefer to see personal insurance on a person licence and not the car.
i can only drive 1 car at a time.

ditto!

Charge a base rate(eg. $1K per year) and then additional $100 per demerit point per year.
Demerit points are meaningless up until about 9 accrued here in Vic. At 12 you get 'the letter' giving you options!

[Adz]

[QUOTE=trout1105;2722262]I may have been somewhat harsh But speeding is not only a crime it has been proved to cause accidents and deaths.
Try telling a parent of a child that has been run down by a speeding car that speeding is not that serious and the coppers are just using it as an excuse to raise revenue[bigwhistle]
We all know that speeding is dangerous and we all know it is illegal and yet many of us still speed.
I myself am NO angel in this regard and I have been busted on a few occasions that have cost me money and demerit points that left me feeling stupid for speeding in the first place.[/QUOTE

If the government was serious about speeding being dangerous there's a thousand different things they could do that actually work as opposed to handing out fines. It is revenue raising pure and simple and if you believe otherwise you need to wake up

[Pickles2]

Have to disagree with most of that Ak, relative to speed anyway. I've driven in the U.K., been on the roads in the U.S.A., and my friend, we are definitely, as Mark weber said, the "Nanny State".
I've been driving a long time, during the days when "Mums & Dads" had their 186 Kingswoods, and they would go for a drive, go on holidays, drive to Qld etc as we do, and they'd sit on 70MPH+ EASILY, without any danger at all. Drove to Qld myself in an EH179 S.W....drove up with a friend, sat on 70+ most of the way,..no dramas at all.
The BIG difference these days is that when I was young, Police were not really interested unless one was driving DANGEROUSLY,....that has now gone out the window.
And what about the latest "law"?.."breaking traction"!!..when we were in our FJ/FC Holdens, "hotted up" with our twin strombergs, lukey exhaust, Wade cam etc etc(I've ALWAYS loved my cars/driving / motorsport etc, still do, but I've now lost a lot of interest, particularly around the city, which is why wifey was driving!), one of our greatest pleasures was "makiing a bit of smoke" (from the tyres!) when we took off from the lights etc. What happens if ya do that now?...car impounded!!.....absolute nonsense.......and we were not into hooning, doing donuts etc etc, just normal driving, "enjoying" our cars,....not any more.
One of my best friends has been out from the U.K. for a few years,...He's copped plenty of fines too, He reckons the attitude here is ridiculous,..which it is compared to any other part of the world that I've driven in.
Pickles.

[Tombie]

Come drive in Thailand [emoji41]
Speed signs are guides at best.
Traffic is phenomenal.
And yet they just get on with it without issue.

In all my time over there driving we never once saw a collision, nor did we sit on posted speeds..

[grazza53]

Traffic fines, in the main, is nothing more than Revenue Raising, agree or disagree that is the plain truth. Demerit points are the attempted legitimization of Traffic Fine Taxation. Anyone over the age of 40 or 45 does not need proof of these facts. Remember when a Policeman was the sole means by which you received a ticket for speeding? You were followed by a Police car or spotted by a policeman using a speed recording device. He knew if you were actually speeding, or had momentarily crept over because of whatever reason. He knew if you were "going for it" or was slightly over because you were in a bit of a hurry, had an emergency or whatever other reason. He pulled you up and dealt with you according to the need. Now a camera "senses" an object has passed it's field at a speed faster than it's setting and takes a picture, end of story. Back to our Policeman, having decided you were simply out for a joy ride and travelling in excess of the speed limit with no real excuse, he issued you with a suitable infringement notice for a nominal fee, set to teach you a lesson, which you dully scooted off to the court house, or council offices and paid. That money was then transferred into the Main Roads Account where it was spent on improving your roads. As time passed and more and more cars appeared on our roads, more and more money started accumulating into the Main Roads Account until one day a smarty Politician noticed this small fortune and decided that money really should be sitting in the general Revenue Account so he could get his greedy little hands on it and that Ladies and Gentlemen, as they say, is where it all went to - - - - well the toilet!! (this is a nice forum after all). The Police could not bring in the revenue at the required pace any more, as they were being snowed under with loads of paperwork and people who felt wronged and wanted a day in court, so other means had to be found. Enter the dreaded Speed Camera. A machine devoid of human emotion, a machine that would work 24/7, in rain, hail, snow or sunshine. A licence to print money.

The End.

A scary thought for you, just to finish off. Where is the Government going to reap these Millions of Dollars from in the years to come, once we are forced into the driver-less cars we are told are coming? Frightening isn't it?

[mumbo]

I may have been somewhat harsh But speeding is not only a crime it has been proved to cause accidents and deaths.
Try telling a parent of a child that has been run down by a speeding car that speeding is not that serious and the coppers are just using it as an excuse to raise revenue[bigwhistle]
We all know that speeding is dangerous and we all know it is illegal and yet many of us still speed.
I myself am NO angel in this regard and I have been busted on a few occasions that have cost me money and demerit points that left me feeling stupid for speeding in the first place.

Sadly most of the so called proof of the effects of small infringements is an absolute lie. Apart from the fact that there was never any evidence of even one death caused by speeding at schools before the 40kmh limit was imposed, there was a complete and deliberate misinterpretation of the famous 5kmh over the limit rubbish. The reseaRch DID NOT show that AT ALL. The claim by TAC that 5kmh over 'the limit' (which limit was never specified) would "double the risk of an accident" was a complete lie. There was however some unproven suggestion mentioned that IF an accident occurred at some undetermined excess speed there would be a greater chance of injury. That is nowhere near the same thing. At some point using their logic there would be a 100% chance of an accident. Insane.
Since apparently 'we all know' that speeding is dangerous it would be good to know what 'speeding' is. Certainly if we all believe the speed limits set you might be right but Vicroads has no scientific basis for the speeds they set.
They simply have the power so use it. No-one reviews their opinions and no one can question them. There is plenty of evidence that speed cannot kill......it is the need to stop quickly which causes accidents. Simply reducing speed limits has failed miserably in the pursuit of safety. Europe has shown beyond any doubt that 130kmh is just as safe on highways but our lot insist that we become inattentive and sleepy.. confident in the fact that we are driving safely. Figures do show beyond any doubt that sleepiness causes accidents.

[Classic88]

Ironically the speed camera was invented by a Dutch rally driver who wanted a device to monitor and record his cornering speed so that he could find improvements to his technique i.e. go faster.

[cripesamighty]

After that the Swedes took the idea and used it on a horror stretch of autobahn where winter fogs would render visibilty to virtually zero. Frequent multi-car pile ups with horrendous numbers of injuries and deaths per year in this stretch of road saw them introduce a camera with a BIG sign saying something like... 'visibility bad, slow down or be booked'. Guess what, it worked. Crash numbers dropped as did the fatalities and injuries. This is the proper intention of these devices in the efforts of road safety.

Since then they have been co-opted to raise money in the 'guise' of road safety. As has been said many times before, road safety is a multifaceted issue and concentrating mostly on speed is erroneous. About a decade ago the head of the English police force on his retirement was asked what was the greatest thing about speed cameras and his response was - 'creating a dumber breed of driver'.....

[Classic88]

After that the Swedes took the idea and used it on a horror stretch of autobahn where winter fogs would render visibilty to virtually zero. Frequent multi-car pile ups with horrendous numbers of injuries and deaths per year in this stretch of road saw them introduce a camera with a BIG sign saying something like... 'visibility bad, slow down or be booked'. Guess what, it worked. Crash numbers dropped as did the fatalities and injuries. This is the proper intention of these devices in the efforts of road safety.

Since then they have been co-opted to raise money in the 'guise' of road safety. As has been said many times before, road safety is a multifaceted issue and concentrating mostly on speed is erroneous. About a decade ago the head of the English police force on his retirement was asked what was the greatest thing about speed cameras and his response was - 'creating a dumber breed of driver'.....

Yes but all speed cameras in the UK are very clearly marked as such. They are all painted bright yellow and mobile speed cameras aren't allowed to 'hide' behind bushes, billboards etc so they are primarily intended as a deterrent. If you believe you are an attentive and observant enough driver to exceed the posted speed limit you should be able to spot a speed camera well enough in advance not to get caught.

[rover-56]

I have felt for a long time that fines imposed for a lot of infringements don't really match the crime.
Nice little earner though.

For example look at the fines for possessing an unregistered firearm. I think it is $10,000+ AND jail time.
This resonates with me because I was clearing out a shed here after I moved in and found a .22 rifle.
Local cop was very close to charging me when I walked in with it.

Terry

[Mercguy]

Local cop was very close to charging me when I walked in with it.

Terry


You sure he wasn't close to shooting you? After all, that's the Victoria Police motto - Shoot first, ask questions later.

[cripesamighty]

The top cop was talking about not only the UK but other places as well. I'm pretty sure he visited Australia at least once during his tenure. He preferred peoples attention to be outside the vehicle judging road conditions rather than looking back inside at your speedo every few seconds worrying that you might creep a few km's over the limit and then cop a fine.

When I was still at uni one of my statistics lectures was called 'lies, damned lies and statistics'. You guessed it, we analysed road stats and Govt claims for their policies from several different countries. Needless to say they all massaged their figures (ie. combining statistical variables to enhance or decrease an expected outcome) or outright lied to justify a course of action. A lot of the effective ideas were put in the too hard basket as that meant it was a long term gain so useless to politicians in their short term election cycle, ie education, proper driver training, an honest look at ways to reduce road dangers (ie increasing the speed limit in marked overtaking areas on country roads to reduce time spent overtaking).

Note that this was around 10 years ago so I have forgotten a lot of the details, but I do remember I wasn't a happy camper when I saw the manipulation first hand. We used our own Govt's raw data (obtained from a friend of our lecturer who worked in Canberra) rather than the official figures which we saw were slightly doctored in various ways as they appeared in the ABS. I doubt that we will ever see an honest debate about this though as there are just too many vested interests. I just stick to the limit as much as humanly possible and try and keep my head on a swivel to avoid as many hazards as possible!

[YOLO110]

I completely agree, having also come here from the UK.

The majority of drivers (here in Sydney at least) are combination of aggressive, inattentive, indecisive and discourteous.

Having said that, I owned a V8 musclecar for four years here before buying my RRC and despite the speedo never working in all that time I didn't pick-up a single ticket because I've been driving long enough to be able to accurately judge my speed from my surroundings.

Despite being a retired RAF fast jet/airline pilot, I am unable to judge my speed to within 2-3 kph from my surroundings!

I guess you have been lucky... and I have not!!

The good news is that in Perth... and W.A as a whole, I have not seen the same police/speed kills oppression as I did 'Over East'! Drivers here seem more relaxed, more courteous and you can actually drive with your 'eyes out', looking and reacting to traffic hazards.

[biggin]

Driving on the road is not a right but a privilege. I'll leave it at that.

Is this a fact or a much repeated misconception? Using any public way used to be a right, when did it become a privilege? Whats the going rate for a privilege?

[trout1105]

Is this a fact or a much repeated misconception? Using any public way used to be a right, when did it become a privilege? Whats the going rate for a privilege?

Everyone has the RIGHT to walk or to use a pushbike or even a horse on any gazetted road, However if anyone wants to use motorised transport then a licence is required for both the driver and the vehicle for this to happen we also have to pay the various licence fees for this PRIVILAGE [thumbsupbig]
If anyone's driving habits are deemed to be dangerous or irresponsible according to the laws of the land then their driving licence can be suspended and they will loose this PRIVILAGE.

So YES, "Driving on the road is not a right but a privilege"

[Pickles2]

Wow, I never expected this much interest from my thread, but all is good, like I said, I don't expect anyone or everyone to agree with what I think, but I do love a good discussion, and there's been some good points made.
I thought I'd do a bit of "investigating" about speed cameras on the web, and there's HEAPS of stuff on there. Victoria is most definitely "leading the way" with respect to the number & types of cameras used, and those proposed, AND, by a massive margin, revenue raised!
A brief look revealed, that the camera/location where wifey was snapped is known as "The Champion Intersection". It is the top "earning" camera in Australia, in one three month period snapping 16354 motorists for a $3.8M earn. In comparison, the next closest was a camera in N.S.W. which took A WHOLE YEAR (4 times as long!) to earn the same revenue. S.A.'s top camera for the same period earned just $659K in a whole year!!
There's lot's of stuff on "wifey's camera", mostly negative, as you would expect I suppose. One of the main comments is that it's in a downhill location (another comment was made,..why are there no cameras in uphill locations?!), where one has to slow down from 70, being the preceeding limit to 40, on a downhill road,...it was referred to as "a trap" by one person! There was also another comment from one local resident to the effect that He liked to go down to the location at night so that He "could watch the camera flashing like a disco light"!
Wifey & I have discussed our "issue", and, like I said, we did know it was a 40 zone, and Wifey was accordingly "slowing down", she'd already dropped her speed from 70 to 52, but obviously, having to drop down to 40, in a short period of time, in a downhill location, she wasn't slowing down quickly enough, and should've used her brake to slow down.
Pickles.

[Eevo]

.S.A.'s top camera for the same period earned just $659K in a whole year!!

i think you need to update your stats


SE Freeway, Leawood Gdns: 10,302 fines in 2016, $4,772,564 revenueSE Freeway, Crafers: 4104 fines, $1,982,031Montague Rd, Ingle Farm: 5561 fines, $1,946,590West Lakes Blvd, West Lakes: 3092 fines, $1,106,988Bakewell Underpass, Mile End:2637 fines, $910,391Grange Rd, Kidman Park: 1741 fines, $647,848Cross Rd, Kingswood: 1696 fines, $621,612Pt Wakefield Rd, Paralowie: 1093 fines, $617,960

[Classic88]

Despite being a retired RAF fast jet/airline pilot, I am unable to judge my speed to within 2-3 kph from my surroundings!

I guess you have been lucky... and I have not!!

The good news is that in Perth... and W.A as a whole, I have not seen the same police/speed kills oppression as I did 'Over East'! Drivers here seem more relaxed, more courteous and you can actually drive with your 'eyes out', looking and reacting to traffic hazards.

Surely there are a few more reference points at ground level [bigsmile1]

And I do err on the side of caution. I think it's a question of mindset and doing the maths as well. I used to be aggressive and speed routinely until I actually sat down and thought about it and realised that a few Ks over the speed limit for a short period of time made an absolutely negligible difference to my journey time. As did trying to constantly change lanes, tailgate etc. So now I just relax and go with the flow, knowing it actually makes very little difference to anything other than my blood pressure!

[Pickles2]

i think you need to update your stats


SE Freeway, Leawood Gdns: 10,302 fines in 2016, $4,772,564 revenueSE Freeway, Crafers: 4104 fines, $1,982,031Montague Rd, Ingle Farm: 5561 fines, $1,946,590West Lakes Blvd, West Lakes: 3092 fines, $1,106,988Bakewell Underpass, Mile End:2637 fines, $910,391Grange Rd, Kidman Park: 1741 fines, $647,848Cross Rd, Kingswood: 1696 fines, $621,612Pt Wakefield Rd, Paralowie: 1093 fines, $617,960

No worries, like I said there's a heap of stuff about, my info was from 2015, so, as Vic is "leading the race", figures for Vic would likely show an even greater increase!
Pickles.

[cuppabillytea]

Is this a fact or a much repeated misconception? Using any public way used to be a right, when did it become a privilege? Whats the going rate for a privilege?

Using a public right of way is still a right. Using a public way in a Motor Vehicle is a privilege and has been since it was determined that you had to be LICENCED to do so.

[cuppabillytea]

By the way; in Australia there is no Bill Of Rights, so you don't actually have any rights, that can't be Legislated away.

[Wraithe]

Everyone has the RIGHT to walk or to use a pushbike or even a horse on any gazetted road, However if anyone wants to use motorised transport then a licence is required for both the driver and the vehicle for this to happen we also have to pay the various licence fees for this PRIVILAGE [thumbsupbig]
If anyone's driving habits are deemed to be dangerous or irresponsible according to the laws of the land then their driving licence can be suspended and they will loose this PRIVILAGE.

So YES, "Driving on the road is not a right but a privilege"

Hi Trout, the horse was removed as a form of transport in the "Roadcode 2000" changes.. Thus it is the same as a pedestrian with restrictions... You have no right to use a horse on a public road and some areas they are even restricted from being on pathways, suburbs, freeways etc... You can get a permit to use them in some places and you need a permit to use a sulky or cart... Most police officers overlook this as few have to deal with horses and rights of way... You are even restricted to ride horses on some crown land and also come under the livestock act when you travel long distances, ie Sth West WA where the quarantine laws apply in regards to things like Liverfluke etc

The easing up of restrictions to push bikes is mostly the police, not the law, if you have lost your license, technically you are not allowed to use a pushbike...

But in saying that, you can be done for DUI on a pushbike, horse and if on foot its drunk in a public place(or drunk and disorderly)...

[Mick_Marsh]

Hi Trout, the horse was removed as a form of transport in the "Roadcode 2000" changes.. Thus it is the same as a pedestrian with restrictions... You have no right to use a horse on a public road and some areas they are even restricted from being on pathways, suburbs, freeways etc... You can get a permit to use them in some places and you need a permit to use a sulky or cart... Most police officers overlook this as few have to deal with horses and rights of way... You are even restricted to ride horses on some crown land and also come under the livestock act when you travel long distances, ie Sth West WA where the quarantine laws apply in regards to things like Liverfluke etc

The easing up of restrictions to push bikes is mostly the police, not the law, if you have lost your license, technically you are not allowed to use a pushbike...

But in saying that, you can be done for DUI on a pushbike, horse and if on foot its drunk in a public place(or drunk and disorderly)...
Drunk Albury cyclist loses his licence | The Border Mail (http://www.bordermail.com.au/story/1344185/drunk-albury-cyclist-loses-his-licence/)

[rover-56]

You sure he wasn't close to shooting you? After all, that's the Victoria Police motto - Shoot first, ask questions later.

Yes that seems to be a method learned from the USA.

Don't think he was wearing his gun, and I walked in with the rifle in one hand and the bolt in the other.

Phew, lucky me.
Terry

[jon3950]

Despite being a retired RAF fast jet/airline pilot, I am unable to judge my speed to within 2-3 kph from my surroundings!


Who cares about demerit points. I'm more interested in what you flew in the RAF. :)

Cheers,
Jon

[Fatso]

Who cares about demerit points. I'm more interested in what you flew in the RAF. :)

Cheers,
Jon

Aeroplanes ,[bigsmile][bigsmile][bigsmile][bigsmile]

[trout1105]

Hi Trout, the horse was removed as a form of transport in the "Roadcode 2000" changes.. Thus it is the same as a pedestrian with restrictions... You have no right to use a horse on a public road and some areas they are even restricted from being on pathways, suburbs, freeways etc... You can get a permit to use them in some places and you need a permit to use a sulky or cart... Most police officers overlook this as few have to deal with horses and rights of way... You are even restricted to ride horses on some crown land and also come under the livestock act when you travel long distances, ie Sth West WA where the quarantine laws apply in regards to things like Liverfluke etc

The easing up of restrictions to push bikes is mostly the police, not the law, if you have lost your license, technically you are not allowed to use a pushbike...

But in saying that, you can be done for DUI on a pushbike, horse and if on foot its drunk in a public place(or drunk and disorderly)...

I stand corrected I didn't know that about horses, Thanks for the "Heads Up"
I know that anyone can be done for DUI regardless of what they are driving/riding, I can remember one instance years ago where someone was Busted driving a camel cart back from a remote waterhole with a bunch of kids on board.

[AK83]

....

The easing up of restrictions to push bikes is mostly the police, not the law, if you have lost your license, technically you are not allowed to use a pushbike...

...

Dunno about WA, but I can't find anything about this in Vic .. and it simply makes no sense.
You don't need a license to ride a pushbike in Vic, so having lost license, you (now)don't have something that you don't need to ride a pushy anyhow! Technically speaking, you're just as free to ride this bike as any other unlicensed pushy peddler is.

No idea if that changes if you're license is suspended (in WA) tho .. but still makes no sense.

[trout1105]

Dunno about WA, but I can't find anything about this in Vic .. and it simply makes no sense.
You don't need a license to ride a pushbike in Vic, so having lost license, you (now)don't have something that you don't need to ride a pushy anyhow! Technically speaking, you're just as free to ride this bike as any other unlicensed pushy peddler is.

No idea if that changes if you're license is suspended tho .. but still makes no sense.

I am pretty sure in WA that it is Not illegal to ride a pushbike if you have had your drivers licence suspended [thumbsupbig]

[AK83]

I am pretty sure in WA that it is Not illegal to ride a pushbike if you have had your drivers licence suspended [thumbsupbig]

now that makes sense!!

[Wraithe]

WA Mick_Marsh, not Vic... I dont understand your laws over there, like "right turn from left lane"???? THats different, but then I spose its understandable as thats how I got around the streets of Perth with a road train...

AK38, WA laws have changed a lot since 1974, lots of road act changes, licensing, fire arms act, Registrations, the list is extensive... But the worst part is, it has become more and more confusing but also harder to enforce...

We have had a few add ons like the WA inc tax on rego's that haven't been removed but the debt has been paid... The addition of increased rego to pay for roads, yet we pay that on fuel too(so double dipping), and thats just a couple of extra costs...

We are both a nanny state and a police state...

ps yes i know this is aussie wide but i live here in the west...

[Wraithe]

I am pretty sure in WA that it is Not illegal to ride a pushbike if you have had your drivers licence suspended [thumbsupbig]

nah trout, under the act a bike is still a form of transport, thats why they are allowed to use the road... if you have been booked for DUI, no bike...

Police do over look it, but it can be enforce, and DUI whilst on a bike is the same as car, if you have already had your license suspended and you go over whilst riding a bike, then you will get additional for the suspended license plus DUI again...

Like i said in last post, our laws are all over the place and bike riders think they are exempt but actually they are not, just no rego or license required in first place, until you go DUI, then its a different position...

[biggin]

i think you need to update your stats


SE Freeway, Leawood Gdns: 10,302 fines in 2016, $4,772,564 revenueSE Freeway, Crafers: 4104 fines, $1,982,031Montague Rd, Ingle Farm: 5561 fines, $1,946,590West Lakes Blvd, West Lakes: 3092 fines, $1,106,988Bakewell Underpass, Mile End:2637 fines, $910,391Grange Rd, Kidman Park: 1741 fines, $647,848Cross Rd, Kingswood: 1696 fines, $621,612Pt Wakefield Rd, Paralowie: 1093 fines, $617,960

All part of the "Privilege".

[trog]

nah trout, under the act a bike is still a form of transport, thats why they are allowed to use the road... if you have been booked for DUI, no bike...

Police do over look it, but it can be enforce, and DUI whilst on a bike is the same as car, if you have already had your license suspended and you go over whilst riding a bike, then you will get additional for the suspended license plus DUI again...

Like i said in last post, our laws are all over the place and bike riders think they are exempt but actually they are not, just no rego or license required in first place, until you go DUI, then its a different position...

What would happen then if the person never had a licence ? I did know some years ago that had been caught but never the result.

[trout1105]

What would happen then if the person never had a licence ? I did know some years ago that had been caught but never the result.

They get fined and are not allowed to obtain/apply for a licence for a specified time, Much the same as having your licence suspended for the same time.

[trout1105]

Like i said in last post, our laws are all over the place and bike riders think they are exempt but actually they are not, just no rego or license required in first place, until you go DUI, then its a different position...

The same penalties for DUI also apply in WA if you are busted driving a boat in the West as well.
So if you drink and drive, sail, or ride you are a Bloody idiot [bigwhistle]

[AK83]

WA Mick_Marsh, not Vic... I dont understand your laws over there, like "right turn from left lane"???? THats different, but then I spose its understandable as thats how I got around the streets of Perth with a road train.......

[biggrin]

Hook turns only apply in the CBD .. but unless you're a courier it's impossible to drive into or through the city anyhow, so the hook turns are usually the quicker way around :p

Hook turns are only relevant on roads where trams travel on.
That is, you can have an intersection with a tram going along one way, but not coming across the other way. (eg. Collins and Queen sts).
Travel along Collins(ie. trams in the middle), you have to do a hook turn into Queen ... but not if you're on Queen(ie. no trams) turning into Collins.
Makes sense (in a way) as the trams don't get held up.

If you've ever tried to drive through the CBD at any time NOT between 2AM and 2:01AM . then you'll know that they don't need 40k/h speed limits as you're lucky to crawl along any faster than about 40m/day!! [bigrolf]

[shanegtr]

Just referencing back to the original post if I may, for comparison 12km/h over the limit here in WA will net you only 2 demerit points and $200 fine

[tuesdayfox]

I am feeling sorry for you, but on the other hand, I think your post just proves the system works and I don't think your wife will keep driving 52 in a 40 zone next time?

Something I find amazing is, people will flip birds at you if you do 57 in 60 zone or 87 in 90 zone. Their understanding is that one should driving 69 in a 60 zone and 99 in 90.....

[tuesdayfox]

I worked in emergency department for two years and had lots of busy Friday night shifts. I have seen many patients pulled from a wrecked vehicle.

people don't understand a vehicle IS a 2 ton killing machine (4 tons in the case of a patrol). it is amazing how the car industry manage to portrait an automobile as something welcoming, warm and home-like. But at the end of the day, when its out of control, it is a lethal weapon. Not to mention the stupid Bullbars people put on their vehicle. Handy to cut the object you hit into two pieces I know....

Anyway. The law is the law and I do sincerely hope if one struggles to follow traffic rules 100% should be forced to drive a autopilot vehicle in the near future.

It's a win-win[emoji1]

[Mick_Marsh]

I worked in emergency department for two years and had lots of busy Friday night shifts. I have seen many patients pulled from a wrecked vehicle.

people don't understand a vehicle IS a 2 ton killing machine (4 tons in the case of a patrol). it is amazing how the car industry manage to portrait an automobile as something welcoming, warm and home-like. But at the end of the day, when its out of control, it is a lethal weapon. Not to mention the stupid Bullbars people put on their vehicle. Handy to cut the object you hit into two pieces I know....

Anyway. The law is the law and I do sincerely hope if one struggles to follow traffic rules 100% should be forced to drive a autopilot vehicle in the near future.

It's a win-win[emoji1]
Emergency Department, hey.

I'm sure you refused to use any open blades (scalpels) on principle. Oh, and you walk everywhere, on principle.
The point I'm making here is the automobile is a tool. Just like a blade.
It's how it is used determines whether it is a life saver (think ambulance) or life taker.

Oh, and I should point out autonomous vehicles have already taken lives of their occupants. There are already other threads on that.

[tuesdayfox]

Emergency Department, hey.

I'm sure you refused to use any open blades (scalpels) on principle. Oh, and you walk everywhere, on principle.
The point I'm making here is the automobile is a tool. Just like a blade.
It's how it is used determines whether it is a life saver (think ambulance) or life taker.

Oh, and I should point out autonomous vehicles have already taken lives of their occupants. There are already other threads on that.I am not saying vehicles are evil .....And autopilot vehicle is perfect

I am just saying driving a vehicle should not be taken lightly. Automobile is a heavy machine and can be lethal.
But few of us think this way, aren't we? Often people believe driving is easy and they can multitask when driving.

If one failed to observe the speed limit, I think he/she is probably tired and should take a rest. They are not fit to drive at that point. But again not many agree

[tuesdayfox]

It was the corpse of a 3 years old girl that changed my mind permanently. She was with her grandma and both hit by a 4wd out of control.

The driver regretted deeply but so what? he will live and probably will drive a bit slower for the rest of his life

And his mates will probably think he can't drive

[shanegtr]

I am not saying vehicles are evil .....And autopilot vehicle is perfect

I am just saying driving a vehicle should not be taken lightly. Automobile is a heavy machine and can be lethal.
But few of us think this way, aren't we? Often people believe driving is easy and they can multitask when driving.

If one failed to observe the speed limit, I think he/she is probably tired and should take a rest. They are not fit to drive at that point. But again not many agree
I aqgree with your comments - I think the vast majority of people just get so complacent and comfortable in their 2 tons of steel and just think that everything is fine and that nothing will happen to them. Myself and my wife are in a minority of parents who keep our kids in car seats for longer than most people - my oldest is 10 and still in a harness car seat, youngest is 3 and still rear facing. Most people turn their kids around foward facing as soon as they hit the minimum age requirements and drop the booster seats as soon as they can. I've been through a major vehicle accident (through no fault of my own) and its not much fun, the fact that all 4 of my kids went through the same accident without injury (youngest was only 6 weeks old at the time) is testament that going above and beyond the minimum requirements is not a bad thing. Just wish myself and my wife didnt take the balance of injuries.....

[Clip]

A scary thought for you, just to finish off. Where is the Government going to reap these Millions of Dollars from in the years to come, once we are forced into the driver-less cars we are told are coming? Frightening isn't it?
That’s not the only problem. How are they going to make up the income generated from fuel tax revenue once we are all driving electric cars?

[trout1105]

That’s not the only problem. How are they going to make up the income generated from fuel tax revenue once we are all driving electric cars?

That's nothing, Just imagine the money they would loose if Everyone actually gave up smoking and drinking [bigwhistle]

[cuppabillytea]

I don't know what you are all worried about. If the Government want to tax you there are myriad ways to do it. A long long time ago there was such a thing as the a Window Tax where they taxed you on the size of your windows. They could tax you on distance traveled or double the GST on hire of AVs. One thing is certain, the Government will not go without.

[Clip]

They could tax you on distance traveled or double the GST on hire of AVs. One thing is certain, the Government will not go without.
Yes, the popular choice is a new tax based on the distances you travel.

[trog]

Our combined trips to work each day are about 10 ks. I suppose they will find a way to tax me for not driving more ?

[V8Ian]

A long long time ago there was such a thing as the a Window Tax where they taxed you on the size of your windows.
Hence the popularity of Linux. [tonguewink]

[DiscoMick]

More than six windows copped a tax.
What was the The Window Tax? (http://www.historyhouse.co.uk/articles/window_tax.html)

[Pickles2]

Like I said, Wifey, "Did the crime", so "We've done the time", and paid the fine. All done!
However, I was talking to a friend a few days ago, he says Wifey should've written in, and asked to be "excused",....He says He's done it several times, and that as she had an unblemished driving record, over a long time, she probably would've been,...excused!
Pickles.

[Mick_Marsh]

Like I said, Wifey, "Did the crime", so "We've done the time", and paid the fine. All done!
However, I was talking to a friend a few days ago, he says Wifey should've written in, and asked to be "excused",....He says He's done it several times, and that as she had an unblemished driving record, over a long time, she probably would've been,...excused!
Pickles.
If you read the earlier posts on this thread, you were advised to do this.

[Eevo]

cause this saves lives.

130401

[Pickles2]

If you read the earlier posts on this thread, you were advised to do this.
Yes, of course I did read that, and actually, I wrote a letter years ago for my elderly mother in law who was on a pension, and who would've had difficulty paying, so yes, I wrote a letter for her, which worked!
However, this being a "3 pointer", I wasn't sure whether an "excuse letter" would stretch that far, so we just paid,...all done, better things to think about,....like Bathurst!
Pickles.

[V8Ian]

If you read the earlier posts on this thread, you were advised to do this.
Without going back to read all the posts, the fine had been paid before the thread was started.

[DiscoMick]

I think you have to pay the fine first, and then you can write and ask for special consideration. If granted, some of the points might be restored. So Mrs Pickles could still write and plead her case.

[Wraithe]

cause this saves lives.

130401

Advisory sign.. I have found that most of them are correct...

I use them when driving trucks, they apply pretty well, but then when carting wool or another load that is just as unstable, those signs mean little as I'm usually travelling a lot slower...

There was one up near Wongan Hills, that said 90, trouble was, at 90 my 4wd ended up on its side after going over several times... Now its an 80 sign, bit late for the others that died on that corner, considering they had done plenty of work on that corner over the years but never pulled the limit down when they added a reverse camber into the corner...

Anyway, at the end of the day, its better to have no signs then the responsibility goes back to the driver and you'll be amazed how people drive then, and no they dont all do 160, very few even get upto the state limit of 110...

Fines, laws, and police are fine for the do gooders but at the end of the day, if those rules didn't exist you would find most people are very responsible and would respect each other... The hard core crims will always be there no matter what you do but the people these things apply to and upset, are not criminals... Crims don't care and have no respect for anything or anyone, thus the laws are a sham...

[Eevo]

Advisory sign.. I have found that most of them are correct...




the image isnt talking about the Advisory sign.

look at the base of the sign.

[Wraithe]

the image isnt talking about the Advisory sign.

look at the base of the sign.

Just looked like a pile of rocks to me... Now I have got the glass's out and zoomed in, I do see what your saying, but technically, unless your state laws recognise the sign as a speed limit, then the sign is a warning that few should ignore but road limit applies not the advisory sign...

[Eevo]

Just looked like a pile of rocks to me... Now I have got the glass's out and zoomed in, I do see what your saying, but technically, unless your state laws recognise the sign as a speed limit, then the sign is a warning that few should ignore but road limit applies not the advisory sign...

the sign has nothing to do with it, just a convenient place to put the camera.

[Wraithe]

the sign has nothing to do with it, just a convenient place to put the camera.

In WA they just stick them in vans and park where ever... No camoflage needed... Or they hide them behind bushes...

Oh but they have recorded a Model T Ford, all original, doing over 100 on the freeway... rofl

[Eevo]

In WA they just stick them in vans and park where ever... No camoflage needed... Or they hide them behind bushes...


car on the side of the road is the norm here.


hidden speed cameras dont make me slow down
a letter in the mail 2 weeks after the event does nothing to slow me down.

keeping a good look out, appropriate speed for the conditions and a bit of forward thinking are much more important imho.

[Eevo]

Just looked like a pile of rocks to me... Now I have got the glass's out and zoomed in, I do see what your saying, but technically, unless your state laws recognise the sign as a speed limit, then the sign is a warning that few should ignore but road limit applies not the advisory
click on the image, it should make it big

[vnx205]

I don't know what you are all worried about. If the Government want to tax you there are myriad ways to do it. A long long time ago there was such a thing as the a Window Tax where they taxed you on the size of your windows. They could tax you on distance traveled or double the GST on hire of AVs. One thing is certain, the Government will not go without.

Of course the government would have less need to tax us if we all stopped expecting the government to give us things like an education system, health services, police forces, defence forces, transport infrastructure and all those other things.

So it is really our fault. :)

[vnx205]

... ... ..

There was one up near Wongan Hills, that said 90, trouble was, at 90 my 4wd ended up on its side after going over several times... Now its an 80 sign, bit late for the others that died on that corner, considering they had done plenty of work on that corner over the years but never pulled the limit down when they added a reverse camber into the corner..
... .... ..


Was it 90 or was it 95? Every advisory sign I have seen ( bar one) ends with a 5 rather than a 0. I assume that helps distinguish them from speed limit signs.
There used to be one on a corner on the Clyde Mountain that showed 80, but it was changed a few years ago to 85.

[Clip]

Pic of my favourite speed sign (only one I've ever seen). Can't remember where it is, somewhere in NSW on the back roads between the Oxley Hwy and Qld border. Came across it on a ride and we had to take advantage of it given it was a perfect day with no traffic.

130412

Pic of somewhere not far from it:
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[Wraithe]

Was it 90 or was it 95? Every advisory sign I have seen ( bar one) ends with a 5 rather than a 0. I assume that helps distinguish them from speed limit signs.
There used to be one on a corner on the Clyde Mountain that showed 80, but it was changed a few years ago to 85.

We have advisory signs with even speed limits... it is WA, we kind of do things differently