Is my front high or my rear low?

[davebudge]

After installing a Rijidij front bar - thanks again Murray - and a winch with synthetic rope, I noticed the front sag a little on the standard 110 coils. So I installed a set of HD springs and it of course fixed that sag, but it's been haunting me that maybe it fixed it too good. Or at least get a funny feeling about how it looks - a slight nose up, rather than a more pleasing nose down.

My setup would be nowhere near as heavy as an ARB bar and steel cable (I don't think), so I get worried that it's riding too high. Then late at night I think about the angle of the front prop shaft and the challenge of lifting Puma defenders, and I know logically that theres no way its that high - I mean they're the coils that are standard on 130s. But still I stress.

I've got some weight at the back but not enough to account for the nose up look I didn't think. Currently 'unloaded' with drifta drawer with tools, front runner water tank, roof rack and rooftop tent. So thats like 150-200kgs? You can see in the second photo its the same without the rooftop tent though.

Measurements from the centre of the hub to the guard (or eyebrow in Land Rover speak) is:
Front 51cm
Rear 48cm

Three centimeters on a two and half meter tall car doesn't sound like much but it bugs me. It gets worse when loaded for a trip. All I want is the perfect defender ya know.

Should I just go back to standard front coils? Should I think about rear helper springs? Should I go airbags? Full air suspension to help leveling for the rooftop tent? Should I just shut up and spend more time in the car going places than outside of it debating an inch of height?

130681130682

[D90 orkney]

I think the front is too high if those pictures are unloaded.

Thats how mine used to sit with HD coils.

Unloaded i I have a rake. Rear should be higher

[TimNZ]

For the front end I've found 90mm bump stop clearance on a "Puma" is ideal. You can get away with 95mm, but the backlash in the drive train will feel worse, any more than that and the front prop will start talking to you.

Les Richmond Automotive "Rangie Pink" front coils have given me a 90mm front bump stop clearance with an ARB bar and Warn winch fitted. They are a bit soft, but are available off the shelf so to speak.

Hope this helps,

Tim

[LR V8]

I had the same issue, but with an ARB bar, Warn Winch & steel cable. The difference was 1.5 cm.

I got HD airbags installed in the rear coils. she now has a slight nose down look - looks like it should :)

LANDROVER DEFENDER 110 HD HP FIRESTONE COIL AIR BAG SUSPENSION SPRING ASSIST KIT LANDROVER DEFENDER 110 HD HP FIRESTONE COIL AIR BAG SUSPENSION SPRING ASSIST KIT | eBay (https://www.ebay.com.au/i/332336845590)

(I bought mine elsewhere)

Good luck

[jon3950]

The ride height doesn’t look quite right, but the Keswick and white HD rims do. [thumbsupbig]

The first thing I suggest you do is measure the bump stop clearances to work out whether the front needs to come down or the rear can go up. These are the dimensions you need to work to as the body dimensions can be a little vague on a Defender.

Once you have a bump stop clearance you can relate it to the hub to guard measurement to make it easier. Being a Defender the hub to guard measurement is not necessarily an accurate comparison between vehicles. Just as an aside, I find it easier to measure from the bottom of the rim to the guard - it’s easier to be more accurate.

The front bumpstop clearance on a 110 should be 72mm +/-15 and the rear should be 130 +/-15.

FWIW when mine was brand new and unmolested the front bump stop clearance was 70mm (510 hub to guard) and the rear was 125mm (535 hub to guard). In each case the driver’s side was 10mm lower (typical Land Rover).

Now it’s become a lard-arse it’s down to 50 at the front and 100 at the rear, but it’s now the same on each side. When I finally get around to fitting a winch and a rear wheel carrier it will go down even more and then I will start looking at upgrading springs too.

Cheers,
Jon

[DiscoMick]

Probably a dumb question, but did you put HD coils in the rear as well? You didn't say.

You got me curious, so I just measured my 2009 Puma 110 from hub centre to wheelarch flare and it is:

48cm Front
52cm Rear

So, the front is down a little but the rear seems OK.
The front has an ARB bar and an Ironman winch with synthetic cable. The rear has ORS aluminum drawers (45 kg) and a 30 litre fridge.
The coils are standard, but the rear has Airbag Man airbags with 10 lbs.
I have wondered about going to HD coils, but don't want to make it too stiff.
I'm undecided.

Maybe you should add rear airbags to level it up with a load. The airbags also firm up the ride and roll a bit.

Are you happy with the ride?

[Rolly]

I also have the same steel rims. When I had the 'build' done it was explained to me that when steel hubs were ordered they also fitted the HD suspension.
Unless your rims were an aftermarket fit I think you should have the above as well.

Cheers

Rolly

[davebudge]

Thanks everyone. I'll get out there with a tape measure in the morning and measure the distance to the bump stops. This is starting to look like a good excuse to get some airbags though.....

Oh and I'm happy with the ride at the moment. The drawers etc that live in the back permanently take the edge off nicely. The front doesn't seem to be harsh at all.

[davebudge]

Just measured and I’m at approx 83mm both front and rear.

So they’re both a little out of whack but it seems more a case of the rear sitting a bit too low. The front is still at least in “spec”

[Zeros]

Probably a dumb question, but did you put HD coils in the rear as well? You didn't say.

You got me curious, so I just measured my 2009 Puma 110 from hub centre to wheelarch flare and it is:

48cm Front
52cm Rear

So, the front is down a little but the rear seems OK.
The front has an ARB bar and an Ironman winch with synthetic cable. The rear has ORS aluminum drawers (45 kg) and a 30 litre fridge.
The coils are standard, but the rear has Airbag Man airbags with 10 lbs.
I have wondered about going to HD coils, but don't want to make it too stiff.
I'm undecided.

Maybe you should add rear airbags to level it up with a load. The airbags also firm up the ride and roll a bit.

Are you happy with the ride?

I got curious too... my 2014 puma, on stock springs front and rear, Koni Raid shocks, ARB bullbar (no winch) with half a load of camping gear in the rear is:

48cm front
51cm rear

Full load it would be level. Rides well although I've also considered HD fronts to stiffen front a bit, but I'm not so sure now given your measurements Dave. Reckon I'd try going back to standard fronts first, unless you really want airbags of course. Yours doesn't look too bad especially in the loaded pic. Having said that your rear measurement looks a bit low. Are they stock rear springs?

[davebudge]

Yeah stock rear springs. Going back to stock front springs would fix the “look” but I would still be down a little overall. Which is probably fine

[DiscoMick]

I got curious too... my 2014 puma, on stock springs front and rear, Koni Raid shocks, ARB bullbar (no winch) with half a load of camping gear in the rear is:

48cm front
51cm rear

Full load it would be level. Rides well although I've also considered HD fronts to stiffen front a bit, but I'm not so sure now given your measurements Dave. Reckon I'd try going back to standard fronts first, unless you really want airbags of course. Yours doesn't look too bad especially in the loaded pic. Having said that your rear measurement looks a bit low. Are they stock rear springs?
Gee your numbers are almost identical to mine, except my rear is slightly higher because of 10 lbs in the rear airbags I think. I put that to keep it level when towing the camper trailer.
I notice Tough Dog has a 35mm lift kit for 110s which I assume would be just right to lift mine back to original height.

Tough Dog 35mm Lift Kit Land Rover Defender 110 (Stage 2) | Superior Engineering (https://www.superiorengineering.com.au/tough-dog-35mm-lift-kit-landrover-defender-110-stage-2-17512)

[Zeros]

Gee your numbers are almost identical to mine, except my rear is slightly higher because of 10 lbs in the rear airbags I think. I put that to keep it level when towing the camper trailer.
I notice Tough Dog has a 35mm lift kit for 110s which I assume would be just right to lift mine back to original height.

Tough Dog 35mm Lift Kit Land Rover Defender 110 (Stage 2) | Superior Engineering (https://www.superiorengineering.com.au/tough-dog-35mm-lift-kit-landrover-defender-110-stage-2-17512)

Hey Mick, I reckon you're at original height already. Mine certainly is.

You'll regret a lift kit.

Cheers man

[rijidij]

Dave, a common mod when fitting a bull bar etc to the front, and loading the back with gear, is to fit the HD springs to the front and 130 helper springs to the rear with the standard rear springs. This way the front and rear springs handle the load when loaded and you don’t loose your ride quality in the rear when unloaded.
There are other options as suggested, but this is an easy one to try, and relatively affordable.
Also, sticking with factory springs doesn’t lift the car enough to affect the front prop shaft.
Where are you located. I have a set of helper springs you could borrow for a trial fit.
Cheers Murray

[DiscoMick]

Hey Mick, I reckon you're at original height already. Mine certainly is.

You'll regret a lift kit.

Cheers manThanks. The bullbar and winch were fitted before I bought it, so I don't know if it has dropped.
For now I'm leaving it unchanged. The airbags work fine in the rear too.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[Zeros]

Thanks. The bullbar and winch were fitted before I bought it, so I don't know if it has dropped.
For now I'm leaving it unchanged. The airbags work fine in the rear too.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Totally agree, if it aint broke. ...I doubt it's dropped much as mine hasn't.

[davebudge]

Dave, a common mod when fitting a bull bar etc to the front, and loading the back with gear, is to fit the HD springs to the front and 130 helper springs to the rear with the standard rear springs. This way the front and rear springs handle the load when loaded and you don’t loose your ride quality in the rear when unloaded.
There are other options as suggested, but this is an easy one to try, and relatively affordable.
Also, sticking with factory springs doesn’t lift the car enough to affect the front prop shaft.
Where are you located. I have a set of helper springs you could borrow for a trial fit.
Cheers Murray


Thanks for the offer Murray. It's probably the option that makes the most sense. Easy, affordable and will just work.

I'm in Melbourne, and I'm assuming you're still down past Geelong? Could be worth a little trip.... or maybe I could get a friend form work who lives down that way pick it up?

Again, thanks for the offer. Honestly, things like this is one of reasons I've had Land Rover's for the last 12 years

[rijidij]

Yeah, I’m actually in Winchelsea now, so a little further down the road, but let me know if you’re heading this way.
Cheers Murray

[DazzaTD5]

After installing a Rijidij front bar - thanks again Murray - and a winch with synthetic rope, I noticed the front sag a little on the standard 110 coils. So I installed a set of HD springs and it of course fixed that sag, but it's been haunting me that maybe it fixed it too good. Or at least get a funny feeling about how it looks - a slight nose up, rather than a more pleasing nose down.


130681130682

What brand are the HD coils?
I've had to deal with this same issue since the Defender TDCi (Puma) came out....

The isssue is the Ford engine is lighter than the previous Defender TD5 yet aftermarket coils from what I have seen wear the same part number for both models.
Add to that, the ARB deluxe bar or in your case the rigidi brand bar are lighter than the old ARB standard bar.

I generally fit medium load coils to the front and heavy coils to rear or I fit 10mm steel plates under the coil plates for the rear, this varies depending upon customers setup.

Defender TDCi (puma) HD coils front back, 10mm plates in rear (fully loaded).
http://www.aztech4x4.com.au/images/DSC_0198A.jpg?435

Defender TD5 HD coils front back (same part number) no rear plates
http://www.aztech4x4.com.au/images/IMG_1958.jpg?928

Regards
Daz

[Danjeffery]

A good way to measure your current heights to see where it's at.

https://gwynlewis4x4.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Spring-Height-Measurments.pdf

[Zeros]

Both of those pics look high in the front to me Daz (unless it's the angle of the photo?).

Reckon I'll stick with standard height springs front and rear. When fully loaded my 2014 Defender sits dead level on standard springs (as it should). Very happy with ride too on Koni Raids.

My Fronts might be down a touch with bullbar weight, but not enough to warrant HD fronts... those HD fronts seem to make 110's nose up.

cheers

[davebudge]

Just realised I never wrote the end to this story.

I ended up installing a set of airbag helpers in the rear springs (High Pressure AirbagMan). This allowed me to bring the measurement from the bump stop back into spec. - and of course adjust it whatever the load.

The added benefit is the amount of adjustment I can get in the rear when leveling the car to sleep in the roof top tent. While its not the same as a full air setup, if a go 0psi in one side and 60psi in the other I can achieve about 100mm of difference. Means I can also do a little front to back adjustment too.

Really happy with ride (and look) no matter the weight in the back

Thanks everyone for your help

[RED]

.net

[DiscoMick]

Just realised I never wrote the end to this story.

I ended up installing a set of airbag helpers in the rear springs (High Pressure AirbagMan). This allowed me to bring the measurement from the bump stop back into spec. - and of course adjust it whatever the load.

The added benefit is the amount of adjustment I can get in the rear when leveling the car to sleep in the roof top tent. While its not the same as a full air setup, if a go 0psi in one side and 60psi in the other I can achieve about 100mm of difference. Means I can also do a little front to back adjustment too.

Really happy with ride (and look) no matter the weight in the back

Thanks everyone for your helpYes, that's good. I'm also happy with our Airbag Man rear airbags and run 10 psi all the time. It levels the vehicle, particularly when towing, and firms up the ride a bit in corners.

[DieselDan]

Bit of a thread resurrection, but reading back through this prompted me to do something about my saggy rear end.....

I've bought the Airbag Man HD helper bags with the sleeves, so has anyone who has fitted these (or the standard ones) got any hot tips on how to fit the plate that goes on top of the bags?

I've got the car on axle stands under the chassis rails and a jack under each end of the axle, lowered as far as they'll go.
The bags are in the coils, but for the life of me I can't squash them enough to feed the plate through the coil and up above the bag.
The height of the jacks is also stopping the axle from going low enough to get the top of the coil from coming out of its seat, so I can't slip the plate over the top of the coil (and I suspect I'll hit the end of travel of the shock before that happens anyway).

The instructions for fitting the plate simply says 'fit from underneath' which isn't particularly helpful and the only video I've managed to find on yootube is a sped up fitment to a 90 and this bit of the fitting is over in less than half a second and doesn't really give any clues.

Short of getting some coil spring compressors, any suggestions?

Cheers!

[ramblingboy42]

have you searched the thread Dan, I'm getting a bit of a deja vu feeling here. I'm sure someone addressed this previously.

[DieselDan]

Yeah I thought the same, but can't find the info. There's nothing in this thread though.
I'll keep looking!
Cheers.

[DiscoMick]

Maybe ring Airbag Man for hints?

[W&KO]

Sounds like you need to raise the chassis, disconnect the shock than you should be able to drop the spring lower.

[DieselDan]

Sounds like you need to raise the chassis, disconnect the shock than you should be able to drop the spring lower.Yeah, I'm thinking this way too.
I was just hoping there was some trick I was missing that would mean I didn't need to faff around rejigging the axle stands!!

[jon3950]

It's been a while since I did it, but I seem to recall fitting the plates first by slipping them between the coils. Then fitting the bags the same way - between the coils.

You need to get the spring as open as possible, so disconnecting the shocks helps.

Cheers,
Jon

[DieselDan]

Maybe ring Airbag Man for hints?They were a bit non the wiser at first either!!
They did come back to me with a good tip that I'll try first, before I resort to jacking it up higher - try to pull the bottom of the bag out through one of the coils to make a gap at the top to feed the plate into.

[DieselDan]

It's been a while since I did it, but I seem to recall fitting the plates first by slipping them between the coils. Then fitting the bags the same way - between the coils.

You need to get the spring as open as possible, so disconnecting the shocks helps.

Cheers,
JonThanks, I'll try airbag man's tip first and then possibly give this a go before I attempt to jack it up higher and undo the shock.

[DieselDan]

Got this all sorted in the end.

And to bring it back to the gist of some of the original posts, the saggy suspension heights have gone from (hub centre to wheel arch eyebrow):
Front 48.5cm
Rear 49.5cm

To:
Front (same)
Rear 52cm with 10psi in the bags.

Winner!

[DiscoMick]

That's good.
I started with 10 in the rear airbags, but have gone to 15. Happy with that.