Copper coated steel bundy line

[akelly]

Hey folks - anyone know if this stuff is OK to use for brake lines here in Australia? Can't see why not, but checking if anyone else has used it or has experience of it?

130787

Cheers,

Adam

[akelly]

hahahaha I uploaded the wrong screen-shot! Fixed now.

[gromit]

As the tester could stick a magnet to it & confirm that it's steel, it would probably be OK.

Colin

[akelly]

Update: got this from the ebay seller today, so the copper coated line is compliant to use for brake lines in Australia.

130813

I've asked if they will include a copy of the certificate for me with a purchase. Never hurts to be prepared for the questions by some random inspection station dude...

Cheers,

Adam

[bemm52]

As the tester could stick a magnet to it & confirm that it's steel, it would probably be OK.

Colin

I did my 2a brake lines with a pre made kit, line lengths and fittings from a LR parts vendor in Victoria (Not Ebay). They are copper nickel and I doubt a magnet would adhere to them, they were a bit of an outlay but a good product that fitted perfectly and vendor suggested they would outlast my vehicle.



Cheers Paul

[akelly]

I did my 2a brake lines with a pre made kit, line lengths and fittings from a LR parts vendor in Victoria (Not Ebay). They are copper nickel and I doubt a magnet would adhere to them, they were a bit of an outlay but a good product that fitted perfectly and vendor suggested they would outlast my vehicle.



Cheers Paul

Hi Paul,

although it gets good reviews, copper nickel isn't allowed in Australia, the tubes have to be steel bundy line (per VSB14). I can't use a pre-made kit because I have a ford falcon master cylinder, so I have to make up my own lines.

Cheers,

Adam

[gromit]

Hi Paul,

although it gets good reviews, copper nickel isn't allowed in Australia, the tubes have to be steel bundy line (per VSB14). I can't use a pre-made kit because I have a ford falcon master cylinder, so I have to make up my own lines.

Cheers,

Adam
Copper isn't allowed, copper nickel is. VSB14 refers to steel bundy or 'tube conforming to SAEJ1047' (which covers copper nickel).


https://www.google.com.au/url'sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&ved=0ahUKEwiSxKDVs-3WAhXDTLwKHVS5A1kQFgg-MAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.copper.org%2Fapplications%2F automotive%2Fpdf%2Fa8001.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2tHtojQLxaKYvhomemrOjv


Colin

[Homestar]

Yes, copper nickel is ok - I know if more than one vehicle with these lines that's past a RWC here in Vic in the last year.

[trout1105]

If the Copper Nickel lines at made of the same stuff as our coins then they are 75% copper and 25% nickel.
I would think that these would be far more durable than the steel or copper pipes.

[JDNSW]

The problem with copper brake lines is that they work harden from vibration and are liable to fracture. Copper-nickel is perfectly satisfactory - but to be accepted you are likely to have to prove it isn't copper. It should have identification printed or etched on the tubing for this purpose.

[trout1105]

The problem with copper brake lines is that they work harden from vibration and are liable to fracture. Copper-nickel is perfectly satisfactory - but to be accepted you are likely to have to prove it isn't copper. It should have identification printed or etched on the tubing for this purpose.

Copper/nickel when scratched sows a White metal Copper is orange/red.
Also if the alloy is high in nickel a magnet will stick to it as nickel is attracted to a magnet.

[akelly]

Copper isn't allowed, copper nickel is. VSB14 refers to steel bundy or 'tube conforming to SAEJ1047' (which covers copper nickel).


https://www.google.com.au/url'sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&ved=0ahUKEwiSxKDVs-3WAhXDTLwKHVS5A1kQFgg-MAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.copper.org%2Fapplications%2F automotive%2Fpdf%2Fa8001.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2tHtojQLxaKYvhomemrOjv


Colin

130833

That's not how it reads. It reads as requiring steel bundy tube meeting SAEJ1047 or an equivalent standard. I'll confirm with the engineer I'm working with and report back though, because it's clearly an issue.

Cheers,

Adam

[edit: the image didn't turn out well so I put the whole section in, you can see how they use the term "or equivalent" to mean an equivalent standard]

[Homestar]

130833

That's not how it reads. It reads as requiring steel bundy tube meeting SAEJ1047 or an equivalent standard. I'll confirm with the engineer I'm working with and report back though, because it's clearly an issue.

Cheers,

Adam

[edit: the image didn't turn out well so I put the whole section in, you can see how they use the term "or equivalent" to mean an equivalent standard]

Yes, could be to individual engineers and road worthy establishments - best to check before using, but not an issue with a couple of places down here at least.

[akelly]

Interestingly the standard quoted is listed as cancelled on the SAE site, which could be why "or equivalent" has been included in the VSB. I deal with standards and legislation pretty regularly in my work, usually there is a working interpretation somewhere available so I might have to chase this with VicRoads on Monday and see where it goes.

Cheers,

Adam

[bemm52]

Tried a magnet on my brake lines and it doesn't stick

There are markings on the brake tubing, this is a line I didn't need to use
130877130878130879

The box the kit came in with sticker over dreaded copper word
130881

My guess is the Automec kits advertised as "copper" on line are in fact copper nickel

Rego inspection time will be interesting, if my lines don't pass muster I will certainly be taking it up with the supplier

Cheers Paul

[JohnboyLandy]

I looked in to the Automec lines a while back, and contacted them directly. They told me they could supply copper lines or copper nickel for the same price, and they listed a whole bunch of standards they complied too. When I checked all of the standards against the ADR regs, none of them matched.

In the I went for steel "bundy" tube lines as per the ADR regs. I had the lines made by Better Brakes in Southport QLD, total cost for all lines. flares and fittings, $130.

They may not last as long as copper or copper / nickel, but I know I am ADR compliant and I can't argue with that price.

Cheers,
John

[Tote]

Perhaps a silly question but if the lines were originally copper why would you need to change them to comply with an ADR that was issued after the build date of the vehicle? (unless you were engineering a modification that requires an engineers certification?)

Regards,
Tote

[JDNSW]

As far as I am aware, all Landrovers ever built have had steel brake lines. Any copper lines will be replacements. Copper is (or rather was) preferred because of its ease of working and corrosion resistance, although corrosion of brake lines is not a serious issue in Australia where salt is not used on roads.

[akelly]

Perhaps a silly question but if the lines were originally copper why would you need to change them to comply with an ADR that was issued after the build date of the vehicle? (unless you were engineering a modification that requires an engineers certification?)

Regards,
Tote

Originals were steel, at least on the IIA.

[Tote]

Fair enough, My series 1 has some copper lines but as stated they may be replacements. The line from the reservoir to the master cylinder is also copper but this would not be under pressure anyway.

Regards,
Tote

[Bigbjorn]

Legality aside, copper brake lines are fine if they are rigidly clamped down particularly only a short distance from a flare. One of the reasons the safety nazis banned them was that if not tied down properly they vibrate, work harden and snap off at the flares.

[JDNSW]

Fair enough, My series 1 has some copper lines but as stated they may be replacements. The line from the reservoir to the master cylinder is also copper but this would not be under pressure anyway.

Regards,
Tote

Doesn't matter if it is under pressure or not - if it breaks it will let the fluid out. Not all at once but you will still end up without brakes. And yes, that line was steel from the factory too.

[akelly]

pretty sure the issue with copper brake lines is work hardening from being pressure pulses as brakes are used over thousands of cycles. At least that's my recollection of how it was explained at TAFE many years ago.

[JDNSW]

I very much doubt that the pressure pulses have much to do with it - the major effect will be vibration from the movement of the vehicle over the road (especially on corrugations) and vibration from engine vibration and out of balance prop shafts and wheels. The brake pressure impulses probably are at a rate of a few per kilometre (or way less on rural roads) where vibration from engine and drive train is typically hundreds of times per minute, and from the road irregularities at a similar rate. And the strain from both of these is likely to be higher than the strain due to pressure, and more importantly, is concentrated at particular spots, such as the base of the flare at each end.

Pipes are supposed to be secured to prevent vibration, but even so, there is some scope for movement, and securing is often neglected when pipes are replaced.

[akelly]

probably right, it's been a long time and many beers since then.