Can the seller be also liable - Duty of Care?

[Roverlord off road spares]

Wanted opinions on this, apart from the idiots that make these purchases, can the seller also be liable for allowing this on their premises? Duty of care or similar.
Found these today on Dashcam owners Aust

130916

130917

[Tombie]

Yes. The company is also liable..

[trout1105]

That sort of thing is WAY beyond Stupid [bighmmm]

[pop058]

Find it hard to believe they (the hardware store) would let that out the door.

[trout1105]

Find it hard to believe they (the hardware store) would let that out the door.

I would be surprised if they got out the door without bowling someone or something over

[p38arover]

Back on Mothers Day, I saw a car leave Bunnings with three blokes, arms out the windows, holding onto what looked like an 8x4 sheet of Masonite on the roof. I wondered how far they got before it was ripped out of their hands onto the car behind.

[rangieman]

Back on Mothers Day, I saw a car leave Bunnings with three blokes, arms out the windows, holding onto what looked like an 8x4 sheet of Masonite on the roof. I wondered how far they got before it was ripped out of their hands onto the car behind.
Even worse if a motorcyclist was following at the time:bat:

[Homestar]

As mentioned, yes they would be liable.

I picked up some 2.4 meter sleepers in the Hilux the other week - they stuck out the back about 2' - the guy at Bunnings just said 'That's technically illegal as nothing is supposed to hang out beyond the lowered tailgate'. I thanked him for the heads up and drove off.

I think that's all they do, but some day, someone will have a serious accident and they will be I a world of poo - and will then start making sure all loads are legal.

One of the problems is that you drive in, load up, pay at the desk and then the first time someone sees how you've loaded is when it's all paid for, tied down and you're heading out the door.

Also, they won't want to be seen as the bad guys as that may effect revenue.

[mick88]

It's not just about duty of care, there is the dollar factor in there too!
The "chain of responsibility" is all about finding the link with the most bucks.
Trailers with insecure loads.
The one that gripes me, trailer safety chains dangling in the breeze, or attached with a $2 dog-clip.
Where does it stop, there are a lot of "nuffies" out there.
Why should it be someone else's fault because some dill takes risks?


Cheers, Mick.

[RHS58]

Find it hard to believe they (the hardware store) would let that out the door.

Id let the top one out the door just to see what happens when he goes round the first corner.

[Grumbles]

Find it hard to believe they (the hardware store) would let that out the door.

How can they stop you...... They are not police nor do they have police powers. They cannot legally detain you, confiscate your car/car keys, impound your car or confiscate your newly purchased goods which are now private, legally owned goods.

[trout1105]

As mentioned, yes they would be liable.

I picked up some 2.4 meter sleepers in the Hilux the other week - they stuck out the back about 2' - the guy at Bunnings just said 'That's technically illegal as nothing is supposed to hang out beyond the lowered tailgate'. I thanked him for the heads up and drove off.

I think that's all they do, but some day, someone will have a serious accident and they will be I a world of poo - and will then start making sure all loads are legal.

One of the problems is that you drive in, load up, pay at the desk and then the first time someone sees how you've loaded is when it's all paid for, tied down and you're heading out the door.

Also, they won't want to be seen as the bad guys as that may effect revenue.

The Bunnings employee did fulfil his duty of care by alerting you that the load was illegal, It's not his fault you chose to ignore his warning [thumbsupbig]
In this case the onus would be on you if something went pear shaped.

[weeds]

How can they stop you...... They are not police nor do they have police powers. They cannot legally detain you, confiscate your car/car keys, impound your car or confiscate your newly purchased goods which are now private, legally owned goods.

I guess they don't have to open the boom gate......as you are on there property. Or would you just grumble at them and drive through the boom gate?? I assume the conversation would start as a heads up, all up to the customer what their response is.

My local steel shop won't load until you show them how you're going to secure the load.

I doubt many if any bunnings employee would be bothered actually stopping somebody from driving off. They have never questioned or asked me to change the load, but if they were to point out my load wasn't secure or illegally loaded than I would stop and consider it.

Oh, we refuse trucks departing our sites if they are overloaded or have not restrained the pallets to our minimum requirements.......and I'm guessing once it's loaded it doesn't belong to us but authorities will and do fine companies. If they do drive off than the carrier and driver are no longer allowed on site. The only tricky bit is when road trains are involved.

[rangieman]

It's not just about duty of care, there is the dollar factor in there too!
The "chain of responsibility" is all about finding the link with the most bucks.
Trailers with insecure loads.
The one that gripes me, trailer safety chains dangling in the breeze, or attached with a $2 dog-clip.
Where does it stop, there are a lot of "nuffies" out there.
Why should it be someone else's fault because some dill takes risks?


Cheers, Mick.
They call it chain of responsibility :wallbash: It is all to do with OHS you know because some idiot done it in the past so now we have to be prepared for the next idiot.
But yes im on your side why is everyone else responsibie for all the tools out there:bat:

[Tombie]

They call it chain of responsibility :wallbash: It is all to do with OHS you know because some idiot done it in the past so now we have to be prepared for the next idiot.
But yes im on your side why is everyone else responsibie for all the tools out there:bat:

Because sadly not everyone is equipped nowadays with the all too rare “common sense”.

And in my work I come across far too many people who just lack the ability to self assess or risk assess.

It’s these people, lacking knowledge, that has driven legislation to ensure they are kept in check.

Unfortunately they quite often survive their acts of foolishness at the detriment of innocent bystanders.

[donh54]

As mentioned, yes they would be liable.

I picked up some 2.4 meter sleepers in the Hilux the other week - they stuck out the back about 2' - the guy at Bunnings just said 'That's technically illegal as nothing is supposed to hang out beyond the lowered tailgate'. I thanked him for the heads up and drove off.

I think that's all they do, but some day, someone will have a serious accident and they will be I a world of poo - and will then start making sure all loads are legal.

One of the problems is that you drive in, load up, pay at the desk and then the first time someone sees how you've loaded is when it's all paid for, tied down and you're heading out the door.

Also, they won't want to be seen as the bad guys as that may effect revenue.

Clearly visible loads that project up to 1.2m from the back of your vehicle or trailer do not need a warning device. Any load that projects more than 1.2m from the back of your vehicle or trailer must display a warning device.

Source. Projecting loads (Department of Transport and Main Roads) (https://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/Safety/Vehicle-standards-and-modifications/Loads-and-towing/Projecting-loads.aspx)

[Tombie]

Not quite!!!

No more than 3.7m or 60% of wheelbase from the centre line of rear axle (in the case of a single).

That translates to 1.71m from the axle centreline (or about the length of the tailgate when dropped down.

[stealth]

Mick Marsh should be just about ready to post!

[pop058]

Clearly visible loads that project up to 1.2m from the back of your vehicle or trailer do not need a warning device. Any load that projects more than 1.2m from the back of your vehicle or trailer must display a warning device.

Source. Projecting loads (Department of Transport and Main Roads) (https://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/Safety/Vehicle-standards-and-modifications/Loads-and-towing/Projecting-loads.aspx)


Not quite!!!

No more than 3.7m or 60% of wheelbase from the centre line of rear axle (in the case of a single).

That translates to 1.71m from the axle centreline (or about the length of the tailgate when dropped down.

As Tombie said, to a max of ( in his example) 1.71 MTS. And in the case of a loaded Ute, towing a trailer does not alter the Ute maths at all.

[Bigbjorn]

In 60 years of driving I have seen some eye-popping unsafe loads. The most recent was between Warwick and Dalveen. A smaller Asiatic station wagon with a larger, about 8' x 4', single axle box trailer. The trailer was piled up with a fridge-freezer, washing machine, tumble dryer, a couple of tea chests and two armchairs tied down on top. A roof rack on the wagon was carrying a three seat sofa. The wagon's interior was chocka with household goods.

A few years ago on the afternoon of Easter Thursday, we were sitting in the sales office destroying a carton and watching the traffic jam on the main road out front. A car crawled past with a caravan and a boat and trailer hitched on behind the van. We were all speechless and all spoke at once "did you see that?" I have wondered since how far he got before some observant copper or transport nazi noticed.

[donh54]

Not quite!!!

No more than 3.7m or 60% of wheelbase from the centre line of rear axle (in the case of a single).

That translates to 1.71m from the axle centreline (or about the length of the tailgate when dropped down.

I was talking without a flag, which seem to be conspicuously absent from most loads I see leaving the local hardware store

[Tombie]

Even with a flag [emoji6]

[donh54]

The muppet that Homestar mentioned at Bunnings, told him that 2' sticking out the back was illegal. How could they even suppose to give advice to customers if they don't know the regulations that apply? Unless the company has provided training and/or reference material, their advice is nothing more than that - unqualified advice.

[weeds]

The muppet that Homestar mentioned at Bunnings, told him that 2' sticking out the back was illegal. How could they even suppose to give advice to customers if they don't know the regulations that apply? Unless the company has provided training and/or reference material, their advice is nothing more than that - unqualified advice.

qualified or not, if something was said or suggested I would sus it out myself and make my own decision based on my knowledge.

Not Bunnings specific but when I notice somebody giving the wrong advice than I do take time and offer to point them in the right direction or suggest researching or give them the correct info......referring to them as muppets doesn't really help the world out, is something I don't do and I look at it as an opportunity to assist.

[Mick_Marsh]

Clearly visible loads that project up to 1.2m from the back of your vehicle or trailer do not need a warning device. Any load that projects more than 1.2m from the back of your vehicle or trailer must display a warning device.

Source. Projecting loads (Department of Transport and Main Roads) (https://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/Safety/Vehicle-standards-and-modifications/Loads-and-towing/Projecting-loads.aspx)
This is old. 2007. I think the law has been changed since.

https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/~/media/files/documents/business-and-industry/heavyvehiclerearoverhanglimitsforcarsandtrucksinvi ctoria.pdf%3Fla%3Den&sa=U&ved=0ahUKEwjZrc7EkfTWAhUK32MKHVpHAMwQFggEMAA&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AOvVaw3xjDRbJAGl0q3_P9wNvN0z

[Homestar]

How can they stop you...... They are not police nor do they have police powers. They cannot legally detain you, confiscate your car/car keys, impound your car or confiscate your newly purchased goods which are now private, legally owned goods.

Yes, they can stop you leaving their property with an illegal load. We do that quite a lot at work ourselves. There is no way we would let an illegal load leave the yard, because we would be as liable as the driver if there was an accident.

[Tombie]

The muppet that Homestar mentioned at Bunnings, told him that 2' sticking out the back was illegal. How could they even suppose to give advice to customers if they don't know the regulations that apply? Unless the company has provided training and/or reference material, their advice is nothing more than that - unqualified advice.

Aside from his new found membership to the Jim Henderson team the Bunnings employee was in this case legally correct.

2’ Beyond the dropped tailgate of a current Hilux exceeds the current regulations in respect to that vehicle.

(I’m in now way an angel when it comes to doing this, just pointing out the statement was correct for the circumstances)

[donh54]

As mentioned, yes they would be liable.

I picked up some 2.4 meter sleepers in the Hilux the other week - they stuck out the back about 2' - the guy at Bunnings just said 'That's technically illegal as nothing is supposed to hang out beyond the lowered tailgate'. I thanked him for the heads up and drove off.

I think that's all they do, but some day, someone will have a serious accident and they will be I a world of poo - and will then start making sure all loads are legal.

One of the problems is that you drive in, load up, pay at the desk and then the first time someone sees how you've loaded is when it's all paid for, tied down and you're heading out the door.

Also, they won't want to be seen as the bad guys as that may effect revenue.


Aside from his new found membership to the Jim Henderson team the Bunnings employee was in this case legally correct.

2’ Beyond the dropped tailgate of a current Hilux exceeds the current regulations in respect to that vehicle.

(I’m in now way an angel when it comes to doing this, just pointing out the statement was correct for the circumstances)

Ah, but is it a single cab, or dual cab Hilux? What year? (there were some wheelbase changes over the years). Trayback or wellside? And how far is the tailgate sticking out from the back of the tray when lowered?

The two most common wheelbases seem to be 2750mm or 3085mm. That would mean an allowable overhang from the rear axle of either 1650mm or 1851mm (using VicRoads method of 60% of wheelbase being permissible).

Unless the fellow ran a tape measure over the ute, he's simply guessing. To make a statement of illegality based merely on a guess means, in my book anyway, the fellow qualifies as a muppet. [bigrolf] (Notice the non-capitalised spelling, so as not to upset our good friend Disco Muppet) [bigwhistle]

[Bigbjorn]

Yes, they can stop you leaving their property with an illegal load. We do that quite a lot at work ourselves. There is no way we would let an illegal load leave the yard, because we would be as liable as the driver if there was an accident.

The Chain of Responsibility law has changed attitudes of consignors, hasn't it. I drove and owned line haul trucks on and off from about 1960 to 1985. I had four White Road Boss in the early 80's on line haul shuttle for a major freight forwarder pulling company trailers. They always loaded legal but there were plenty of consignors who would tell you they had two tonne over and could you put it on. My answer was always that I would put on 12 tonne over but not 2. Two tonnes would not pay the fine if caught so put on enough to pay the fine. A good friend on several occasions that I witnessed would pull out of a certain meatworks with a full floor load of packaged pork plus another of hanging carcasses on the rails. I came across another old mate at Cobar one night with a load of tyres that were barely gate high. I commented that there was not much profit in that load. He grinned and said that there 20 tonnes of batteries on the floor under the tyres. This was common practice all the time I was on line haul. Should have stopped now. I hope so. We did it because the rates were so poor on many routes and we needed the money.

[DiscoMick]

Bunnings is responsible if a numpty loads dangerously on the property because Bunnings management is responsible for safety on the site, so if anything happens on the site and someone is injured Work cover would put the cleaners through them and someone would be held responsible and fined or maybe jailed. Someone I know was fined $40k.
If an employee warned the customer who ignored the warning then liability might be reduced.
Company bosses don't like being fined or jailed because customers do stupid things.
In my work, I could be sacked if I stood on a chair, following an incident in which an employee fell off a ladder and broke his neck. The cost to the employer of that incident would have paid my mortgage.

[DeeJay]

I think the LP Gas/ Fuel industry kicked off this liability on the consignor thing back when I drove LP Tankers in the 80's
The Road traffic Authority found a number of overloaded tankers after blitzing as a result of a Shell tanker overturning in Batman Ave here in Melb - it was found to be "too full" - & too fast.
As a result they put the onus back on to the refineries & introduced penalties for allowing overloaded tankers out the gate.
It was pretty common where I loaded - if your tanker was overfilled- to stand to one side of the weighbridge & lift & bounce the tanker & the operator could hit the button at the low point if it got under the programmed max weight.
I got the boss an extra 400kg (800 litres) one night but nearly bust my gut, for no thanks. After the accident with Shell, this terminal installed a security camera. That thing would have paid for itself the first night..
BOC also commenced disallowing unplacarded loads & inappropriate loads at the same time.
David

[rangieman]

Because sadly not everyone is equipped nowadays with the all too rare “common sense”.

And in my work I come across far too many people who just lack the ability to self assess or risk assess.

It’s these people, lacking knowledge, that has driven legislation to ensure they are kept in check.

Unfortunately they quite often survive their acts of foolishness at the detriment of innocent bystanders.
Yeah common sense has long disappeared :wallbash:

[Bigbjorn]

I think the LP Gas/ Fuel industry kicked off this liability on the consignor thing back when I drove LP Tankers in the 80's
The Road traffic Authority found a number of overloaded tankers after blitzing as a result of a Shell tanker overturning in Batman Ave here in Melb - it was found to be "too full" - & too fast.
As a result they put the onus back on to the refineries & introduced penalties for allowing overloaded tankers out the gate.
It was pretty common where I loaded - if your tanker was overfilled- to stand to one side of the weighbridge & lift & bounce the tanker & the operator could hit the button at the low point if it got under the programmed max weight.
I got the boss an extra 400kg (800 litres) one night but nearly bust my gut, for no thanks. After the accident with Shell, this terminal installed a security camera. That thing would have paid for itself the first night..
BOC also commenced disallowing unplacarded loads & inappropriate loads at the same time.
David

Back when the Gailes weighbridge was still in operation an oil company operations manager told me that they knew their trucks tare weights, their fuel usage, and could load very accurately using meters. They endeavoured to ensure that their tankers arrived at Gailes spot on the administrative tolerance.

[VladTepes]

We did it because the rates were so poor on many routes and we needed the money.

Some things, I'm sure, haven't changed.
You certainly won't get rich as an owner-driver....

[V8Ian]

Back when the Gailes weighbridge was still in operation an oil company operations manager told me that they knew their trucks tare weights, their fuel usage, and could load very accurately using meters. They endeavoured to ensure that their tankers arrived at Gailes spot on the administrative tolerance.
Same 'bridge back in the days of 38 ton gross, a mate is racing out to a servo under construction, in the Lockyer. After a prolonged dry spell, a big downpour was going to float the newly planted and still unburied, underground tanks from their resting place. My mate was contracted to take a tanker full of water to the site, to avert disaster. He arrived at Gailes, knowing he was well over, at a fair pace and stopped abruptly on the plates. Of course, the scale is going up and down as the water slops back and forth. He was told to copulate off.

[trog]

When working for a builder in Sydney I spent many Saturday s hauling rubbish from his house to the tip at Menai. The truck used was a tired and worn out Daihatsu two ton. One day it was concrete from the old house slab to go. The boss said the loads I was ready to take wasn't enough to make the job worth while so another slab added. I wasn't happy as I knew it was grossly over weight . When the scales gave me a read out of over 7 tons and the bill , I was just amazed I didn't get caught or robbed in. Boss didn't believe me until I gave him the dockets.

[V8Ian]

Go hard or go home, Kevin. [biggrin]

[Bigbjorn]

Some things, I'm sure, haven't changed.
You certainly won't get rich as an owner-driver....

To make a small fortune as an o/d you need to start off with a large one!

Particularly since b-doubles were approved and freight forwarders started asking subbies to get a b-double. Yeah! Right! Carry 1 2/3 trailers of freight and get paid for 1 1/4 as "b-doubles are cheaper to run". Not for this little gear jammer. I'm gullible maybe but not stupid.

[Aaron IIA]

A few years ago on the afternoon of Easter Thursday, we were sitting in the sales office destroying a carton and watching the traffic jam on the main road out front. A car crawled past with a caravan and a boat and trailer hitched on behind the van. We were all speechless and all spoke at once "did you see that?" I have wondered since how far he got before some observant copper or transport nazi noticed.

This can be legal in South Australia, depending upon the brake setup of the first trailer and the mass of the second trailer.

Aaron.

[pop058]

This can be legal in South Australia, depending upon the brake setup of the first trailer and the mass of the second trailer.

Aaron.

I thought national rules states you cannot tow a pig trailer behind another pig trailer ??

[Aaron IIA]

I can't find the relevant legislation, but I do remember not too many years ago reading that under certain conditions, in South Australia, you can two trailers behind a car.

Aaron.

[weeds]

I'd be surprised if Trucks can tow pig trailers...just think of the geometry of two pig trailers going over bumps....the rear trailer would get launched into orbit.

[bee utey]

I can't find the relevant legislation, but I do remember not too many years ago reading that under certain conditions, in South Australia, you can two trailers behind a car.

Aaron.

Probably not behind a car.

https://www.google.com.au/url'sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=11&ved=0ahUKEwj1qarOyPzWAhXCKpQKHQ0XAkYQFgiIATAK&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nhvr.gov.au%2Ffiles%2Ft068-sa-operation-of-motor-graders-towing-2-trailers-up-to-a-maximum-length-of-26-metres-in-road-construction.pdf&usg=AOvVaw3MkJACxCLgh1XBALvlFVpn

[Mick_Marsh]

A few years ago on the afternoon of Easter Thursday, we were sitting in the sales office destroying a carton and watching the traffic jam on the main road out front. A car crawled past with a caravan and a boat and trailer hitched on behind the van. We were all speechless and all spoke at once "did you see that?" I have wondered since how far he got before some observant copper or transport nazi noticed.
Yep. The fellow lives in Mildura. All perfectly legal and Vicroads approved.

[Mick_Marsh]

I thought national rules states you cannot tow a pig trailer behind another pig trailer ??
Where? I can't find that rule.

Interestingly, there was a road rule that you couldn't drive with an empty bike rack on the car. I know someone who was fined for doing this some years ago. Recently they removed that rule. Road Rule 405.
Recent changes to road rules : VicRoads (https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/safety-and-road-rules/road-rules/recent-changes-to-road-rules)

[Bigbjorn]

Yep. The fellow lives in Mildura. All perfectly legal and Vicroads approved.

That incident was in Brisbane about 1980. Not legal then and not legal now. Only became legal in Qld to tow a driverless car a few years ago. Given the numbers of complete turkeys that tow caravans up and down our highways and byways can you imagine letting them loose with a mini road train?

[Mick_Marsh]

That incident was in Brisbane about 1980. Not legal then and not legal now. Only became legal in Qld to tow a driverless car a few years ago. Given the numbers of complete turkeys that tow caravans up and down our highways and byways can you imagine letting them loose with a mini road train?
Show me the road rules that say it can't be done.

[Homestar]

Show me the road rules that say it can't be done.

Second paragraph down, at least in Vic without a permit, but I think the guy in Mildura did actually have a permit IIRC.

[Mick_Marsh]

Second paragraph down, at least in Vic without a permit, but I think the guy in Mildura did actually have a permit IIRC.

Yep. He did have VASS engineering on the trailers and a MC licence.
What you have linked to does not "state you cannot tow a pig trailer behind another pig trailer". It says you can with the appropriate permissions.

I could "state you cannot drive a vehicle on the road". It might be true but it is misleading. It is true when the driver is a four year old and the vehicle is a B double but is not true when the diver holds the appropriate licence and the vehicle has the appropriate permit/registration.
Just because you (being the reader of this post) does not have the appropriate permissions in place does not mean others can't.

[Bigbjorn]

Second paragraph down, at least in Vic without a permit, but I think the guy in Mildura did actually have a permit IIRC.

I read that as being specific to portable traffic signal trailers. I bet you would face serious obstacles getting a caravan plus boat and trailer approved.

[Homestar]

Clearly says apart from B doubles, you can't tow more than one trailer - a B double combination is defined under the road traffic act (I'll find it later) and a B double combination excludes the use of a pig trailer behind a pig trailer, so back to needing a permit to do so which we know is possible although very rare.

And Bigbjorn - yes, that guy in Mildura tows a boat behind a caravan. It can be done, but you need engineering and appropriate licences which thankfully excludes most of the muppets out there towing their vans around. :)

[JDNSW]

This direction of the thread reminds me of a contractor we had working for us in Central Qld in the i960s. He had a bulldozer, a grader, a workshop trailer, a truck chassis trailer (with generator, welder, large lathe, drill press), a 4x4 supply truck, a fuel trailer, a caravan, and a Mainline ute. But there was only one of him, or occasionally an offsider as well.

He moved around with the whole lot strung together in the order listed - if he had an offsider, he split it into two, one with the grader, one with the dozer. His Allis Chalmers dozer would tootle along at about 30-40kph.

And I'll bet he did not have any sort of permit either. In fact, I think the only registered vehicle was probably the ute, maybe the truck. But, of course, he avoided main roads!

[Bigbjorn]

Clearly says apart from B doubles, you can't tow more than one trailer - a B double combination is defined under the road traffic act (I'll find it later) and a B double combination excludes the use of a pig trailer behind a pig trailer, so back to needing a permit to do so which we know is possible although very rare.

And Bigbjorn - yes, that guy in Mildura tows a boat behind a caravan. It can be done, but you need engineering and appropriate licences which thankfully excludes most of the muppets out there towing their vans around. :)

For a start you would need a dolly and turntable in between trailers. What sort of brake proportioning system could be used? I wonder what roads his permit allows him to use?

[Mick_Marsh]

I read that as being specific to portable traffic signal trailers. I bet you would face serious obstacles getting a caravan plus boat and trailer approved.

Mildura Weekly by Mildura Weekly - issuu (http://issuu.com/mweekly/docs/mwvol7no24)

Page 14

131087

From the article
legal to drive on any road in Australia

Typical of lots of things I have read recently, there appears to be a lot of misinformed opinion being expressed as fact.

[trout1105]

Old Mate in Mildura may be able to use this rig legally But I can see all sorts of safety issues with this sort of set up [bigwhistle]

[Mick_Marsh]

Old Mate in Mildura may be able to use this rig legally But I can see all sorts of safety issues with this sort of set up [bigwhistle]

I can see all sorts of safety issues with 99.99% of the vehicles on the road today.

Category: | Herald Sun (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/man-hit-and-killed-by-tyre-as-he-walked-along-altona-meadows-street/news-story/4b92edffaaa4fc21cfc66f862943edef'sv=74c90a317944eb 84fad0e1e32af328db)

Maybe we need to ban all trucks and Mercedes from the roads.

[Bigbjorn]

I can't believe he got that approved by the notoriously difficult VicRoads.

I can see one design fault in that photo. Work out for yourself what happens under decelleration/braking.

I also wonder what sort of braking system is fitted. Semi-trailers and road trains have proportioning valves in their brake systems.

And that light boat trailer on the end of the string free to wander back and forth across two traffic lanes. What will it do under hard braking? would it come around and kiss the driver of the Cruiser?

[trout1105]

This direction of the thread reminds me of a contractor we had working for us in Central Qld in the i960s. He had a bulldozer, a grader, a workshop trailer, a truck chassis trailer (with generator, welder, large lathe, drill press), a 4x4 supply truck, a fuel trailer, a caravan, and a Mainline ute. But there was only one of him, or occasionally an offsider as well.

He moved around with the whole lot strung together in the order listed - if he had an offsider, he split it into two, one with the grader, one with the dozer. His Allis Chalmers dozer would tootle along at about 30-40kph.

And I'll bet he did not have any sort of permit either. In fact, I think the only registered vehicle was probably the ute, maybe the truck. But, of course, he avoided main roads!

This sort of thing is not that uncommon even today on remote stretches of road where just one operator grades a stretch of road.
Most people are more than happy to see these blokes towing all their equipment behind the grader because the road is getting graded at last [thumbsupbig]

[Mick_Marsh]

I can't believe he got that approved by the notoriously difficult VicRoads.

I can see one design fault in that photo. Work out for yourself what happens under decelleration/braking.

I also wonder what sort of braking system is fitted. Semi-trailers and road trains have proportioning valves in their brake systems.

And that light boat trailer on the end of the string free to wander back and forth across two traffic lanes. What will it do under hard braking? would it come around and kiss the driver of the Cruiser?
All hypotheticals. Do you have any evidence that support you assertions?
I suspect all approvals have been investigated and given by people in the industry who are qualified to do so.

[Homestar]

VicRoads aren't hard to deal with at all - if you make yourself familiar with the rules and have all your ducks in a row, they are very easy to deal with - I've registers all sorts of things that were supposed to be difficult - I just made sure I had all the paperwork they wanted BEFORE attending. Those that find them hard to deal with are usually under prepared or trying to get something dodgy past them.

This rig in question was fully engineered so I'm guessing the brakes do what they need to do and it would have had to pass a brake test and swerve test to obtain a VASS so speculating on its potential flaws and dangers is just an uninformed guess unless your a VASS authorised Engineer yourself? No? Thought not...

People are always so quick to dismiss other people's ideas and tear them down just because they think they know better. I like this setup - the owner has obviously gone to great lengths to make it legal and safe but that's not good enough for some reason.

Or is it that he drives a Land Cruiser maybe... ;)

[pop058]

Where? I can't find that rule.

Interestingly, there was a road rule that you couldn't drive with an empty bike rack on the car. I know someone who was fined for doing this some years ago. Recently they removed that rule. Road Rule 405.
Recent changes to road rules : VicRoads (https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/safety-and-road-rules/road-rules/recent-changes-to-road-rules)


Qld Government Safe Towing (PDF link below)


https://www.google.com.au/url'sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0ahUKEwiWqMvB1f7WAhUMbrwKHTuJBqcQFggvMAE&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tmr.qld.gov.au%2F-%2Fmedia%2FSafety%2FVehicle-standards-and-modifications%2FLoads-and-towing%2FSafe-towing%2FSafe_towing_guide.pdf%3Fla%3Den&usg=AOvVaw1N58_5FT2kPxfSkPvf9AwE

C&P extract.


Legal requirements
To ensure the safety of yourself and other road users, you must abide by the laws governing the towing of trailers. These are:
• the vehicle and trailer must comply with all relevant registration requirements;
• the vehicle and trailer must be in a roadworthy and safe condition;
• all trailers must be fitted with a rear number plate;
• towbars and couplings must not obscure the towing vehicle’s number plate or rear lights when the trailer is not connected;
• towing more than one trailer is prohibited;
• people are not permitted to ride in trailers or caravans; and
• the speed limit for a vehicle towing a trailer is the same as for a normal vehicle.

[weeds]

Mildura Weekly by Mildura Weekly - issuu (http://issuu.com/mweekly/docs/mwvol7no24)

Page 14

131087

From the article

Typical of lots of things I have read recently, there appears to be a lot of misinformed opinion being expressed as fact.

Just because the newspapers says it legal doesn't mean he has actual approval.

I personally don't reckon he has approval as it would open the flood gates for every man and his dog.

[Mick_Marsh]

Just because the newspapers says it legal doesn't mean he has actual approval.

I personally don't reckon he has approval as it would open the flood gates for every man and his dog.
It is all approved, newspaper or not.
I know he has driven in WA, SA, Vic, NSW and Qld without issue. Yes, he has had friendly chats with various members of the constabulary along the way but there is nothing they can do about it because it is all ligit.

[weeds]

It is all approved, newspaper or not.
I know he has driven in WA, SA, Vic, NSW and Qld without issue. Yes, he has had friendly chats with various members of the constabulary along the way but there is nothing they can do about it because it is all ligit.

Fair enough......but I'm not convinced.

buggered if I can see b double technology he is taking about.

I wonder how many other 'legal' set ups exists.

[Tombie]

I can't believe he got that approved by the notoriously difficult VicRoads.

I can see one design fault in that photo. Work out for yourself what happens under decelleration/braking.

I also wonder what sort of braking system is fitted. Semi-trailers and road trains have proportioning valves in their brake systems.

And that light boat trailer on the end of the string free to wander back and forth across two traffic lanes. What will it do under hard braking? would it come around and kiss the driver of the Cruiser?

Very common in the USA to have combinations.

[weeds]

The more I think about it I don't believe the guy got very far with his configuration........

I asked the question and posted the links on another forum and as expected there is always people in the know. They are on the other side of the fence.

[trout1105]

I am pretty sure that there is the only One trailer rule in WA as well as QLD, I think someone is telling "Porkies" or there has been some sort of special dispensation given for this ridicules rig.

[pop058]

I am pretty sure that there is the only One trailer rule in WA as well as QLD, I think someone is telling "Porkies" or there has been some sort of special dispensation given for this ridicules rig.


Qld Government Safe Towing (PDF link below)


https://www.google.com.au/url'sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0ahUKEwiWqMvB1f7WAhUMbrwKHTuJBqcQFggvMAE&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tmr.qld.gov.au%2F-%2Fmedia%2FSafety%2FVehicle-standards-and-modifications%2FLoads-and-towing%2FSafe-towing%2FSafe_towing_guide.pdf%3Fla%3Den&usg=AOvVaw1N58_5FT2kPxfSkPvf9AwE

C&P extract.


Legal requirements
To ensure the safety of yourself and other road users, you must abide by the laws governing the towing of trailers. These are:
• the vehicle and trailer must comply with all relevant registration requirements;
• the vehicle and trailer must be in a roadworthy and safe condition;
• all trailers must be fitted with a rear number plate;
• towbars and couplings must not obscure the towing vehicle’s number plate or rear lights when the trailer is not connected;
• towing more than one trailer is prohibited;
• people are not permitted to ride in trailers or caravans; and
• the speed limit for a vehicle towing a trailer is the same as for a normal vehicle.


The QLD PDF I quoted was dated 2016, not sure about WA.

[trout1105]

The QLD PDF I quoted was dated 2016, not sure about WA.

As a previous poster noted that IF it was possible to get this sort of rig licenced then there would be more of them out and about.
This isn't the case So I tend to agree with that line of thinking .

[pop058]

As a previous poster noted that IF it was possible to get this sort of rig licenced then there would be more of them out and about.
This isn't the case So I tend to agree with that line of thinking .

Although not actual documentation, this is the "best" evidence (IMHO) supporting the doubters (which I am one). [biggrin]

[Homestar]

As a previous poster noted that IF it was possible to get this sort of rig licenced then there would be more of them out and about.
This isn't the case So I tend to agree with that line of thinking .

I doubt there's not more out there because the van needs a VASS engineering certificate and probably substantial modifications to the chassis to pass this. Driver also needs a MC licence so it's not like everyone is going to run out and do this. Combination also needs to be under 19 metres so you couldn't do it with a huge van and boat.

[Homestar]

The QLD PDF I quoted was dated 2016, not sure about WA.

But as I posted earlier, legal in Vic with certification.

[Mick_Marsh]

As a previous poster noted that IF it was possible to get this sort of rig licenced then there would be more of them out and about.
This isn't the case So I tend to agree with that line of thinking .
I have heard of another in Esperence WA. Again, retired with a MC licence, lots of experience and approved by the registration authority. His rig is a van on a fifth wheel with a boat in tow.
I can't find the newspaper article they referred to though.

I reckon there are a few more out there, just not very common.

[weeds]

I have heard of another in Esperence WA. Again, retired with a MC licence, lots of experience and approved by the registration authority. His rig is a van on a fifth wheel with a boat in tow.
I can't find the newspaper article they referred to though.

I reckon there are a few more out there, just not very common.

A 5th wheel setup with third trailer makes a bit more sense with the axle being at the rear of the van.

Other thoughts

Maybe I'm picturing it wrong.....imagine going through a dip in he road at 90km/hrs, with the van axle being in the middle, all I'm thinking is the reaction of the second trailer. Cannot believe the set up got engineer sign off.

It's hard to tell of the pic but there doesn't look like much engineering has been done the the trailers or hitches

Re: experience, you either have the licence. or not......apart from receding and taking a wider line on corners.....just pop it in drive and off ya go.

[trout1105]

Seriously Guys.
Whoever signed off on these rigs needs to be relived of their duty Because only a complete Moron would consider that something like this is Perfectly Safe and is acceptable to be used on a public road.
Good Lord, Whatever happened to Common Sense here [tonguewink]

[Mick_Marsh]

A 5th wheel setup with third trailer makes a bit more sense with the axle being at the rear of the van.

Other thoughts

Maybe I'm picturing it wrong.....imagine going through a dip in he road at 90km/hrs, with the van axle being in the middle, all I'm thinking is the reaction of the second trailer. Cannot believe the set up got engineer sign off.

It's hard to tell of the pic but there doesn't look like much engineering has been done the the trailers or hitches

Re: experience, you either have the licence. or not......apart from receding and taking a wider line on corners.....just pop it in drive and off ya go.

Seriously Guys.
Whoever signed off on these rigs needs to be relived of their duty Because only a complete Moron would consider that something like this is Perfectly Safe and is acceptable to be used on a public road.
Good Lord, Whatever happened to Common Sense here [tonguewink]

Ok.
What are your automotive engineering qualifications?
Where did you study them?
What experience have you had in the automotive engineering field?

[trout1105]

Ok.
What are your automotive engineering qualifications?
Where did you study them?
What experience have you had in the automotive engineering field?

I don't think that there is any need to have a degree in engineering to realise that pulling a road train with a 4WD is a ludicrous idea.

[weeds]

Ok.
What are your automotive engineering qualifications?
Where did you study them?
What experience have you had in the automotive engineering field?

Don't have any.....just applying my mechanical aptitude.....

What engineering requirements are required?? Over and above a normal trailer??

I still don't reckon the guys has travelled across multiply states with this configuration.

[pop058]

Don't have any.....just applying my mechanical aptitude.....

What engineering requirements are required?? Over and above a normal trailer??

I still don't reckon the guys has travelled across multiply states with this configuration.

Tend to agree, Qld and NSW (at least) regs say it is prohibited. To clarify I am not disputing the driver licensing side of things just the actual vechile setup.

[Bigbjorn]

I have e-mailed that media article to modifications Section, Transport & Main Roads Qld asking if such a vehicle can be legally driven in Qld. Has such a permit ever been issued by TMR Qld. Any comment on the line in the article that implies that the pictured vehicle is legal for use on any road in Australia. What engineering requirements would need to be met to use such a vehicle under a TMRQ permit.

I will post any reply I get.

[weeds]

I have e-mailed that media article to modifications Section, Transport & Main Roads Qld asking if such a vehicle can be legally driven in Qld. Has such a permit ever been issued by TMR Qld. Any comment on the line in the article that implies that the pictured vehicle is legal for use on any road in Australia. What engineering requirements would need to be met to use such a vehicle under a TMRQ permit.

I will post any reply I get.

I’m interested in the response.......

[Mick_Marsh]

I have e-mailed that media article to modifications Section, Transport & Main Roads Qld asking if such a vehicle can be legally driven in Qld. Has such a permit ever been issued by TMR Qld. Any comment on the line in the article that implies that the pictured vehicle is legal for use on any road in Australia. What engineering requirements would need to be met to use such a vehicle under a TMRQ permit.

I will post any reply I get.
Did you mention the entire set up has been approved by a VASS engineer, is registered in Victoria and is driven by a holder of a current Victorian MC licence?

Saw a video of another one last week. This one was in the NT.

[Bigbjorn]

Did you mention the entire set up has been approved by a VASS engineer, is registered in Victoria and is driven by a holder of a current Victorian MC licence?

Saw a video of another one last week. This one was in the NT.

I mentioned that it had a Vicroads permit and asked if such permit was recognised in Qld. I also asked if, being clearly a road train according to the Qld. Road Rules, it would be restricted to road train geographical areas and roads if its use was allowed in Qld.

[Mick_Marsh]

I mentioned that it had a Vicroads permit and asked if such permit was recognised in Qld. I also asked if, being clearly a road train according to the Qld. Road Rules, it would be restricted to road train geographical areas and roads if its use was allowed in Qld.
What Vicroads permit?
UVP?
Club Permit?
It does not have a permit. It is fully registered. You have misrepresented the situation and therefore whatever response you get is invalid.

Oh, and it is not a road train. That is your opinion that it is. Where does it say it is a road train?

[V8Ian]

Is it a 'train? I think it a B-double. If it's under 19 metres it would have general access regarding length.

[Mick_Marsh]

Is it a 'train? I think it a B-double. If it's under 19 metres it would have general access regarding length.
It is a multi combination (MC).

[V8Ian]

Multi combination is a class of licence covering multiple configurations of vehicle, with two or more articulation points.

[Bigbjorn]

Here are the NSW RMS towing regulations.

Rules for towing

Towing more than one trailer at a time is not allowed
Nobody is allowed to ride in trailers or caravans
When towing and driving on a road without street lights, drive at least 60 metres behind heavy vehicles or other vehicles towing trailers,unless overtaking
Learner drivers and learner and provisional motorcycle riders are not allowed to tow
P1 car licence holders can tow small trailers with up to 250 kg of unloaded weight.

And here are the WA regulations

Some laws that you need to know
Vehicles, trailers and caravans must meet registration standards and must be roadworthy.
• All trailers or caravans must have a rear number plate and a registration label holder
fixed to the left side of the body so that the label faces outwards or forwards.
• The coupling and towbar must not obscure the number plate or lights on the rear of
the towing vehicle when no trailer or caravan is attached.
• Regulations prohibit towing more than one trailer at once.
• Nobody is allowed to ride in normally registered trailers or caravans.
• When towing a trailer or caravan the maximum speed at which you may tow is 100
kilometres per hour. You must of course obey the posted speed limits.

The relevant South Australian and Northern Territory websites are not user friendly and appear to only contain minimal information.

[Bigbjorn]

"Oh, and it is not a road train. That is your opinion that it is. Where does it say it is a road train?"

Well, look at the Qld. Road Rules. A vehicle pulling a full trailer or a prime mover pulling a single semi-trailer is not a road train. Add another full trailer and it is a road train. A car towing a caravan and another trailer behind that is clearly a road train according to the regulations. Some might argue that it is a b-double as there is some tow ball weight placed on the forward vehicles but this is minimal compared to the weight placed on the turntables of a normal commercial b-double so I prefer the road train analogy.

[Homestar]

It wasn't registered in Queensland - that's the whole point, so that argument goes in the bin...

It is legal and registered in Victoria - thought at was made quite clear in earlier posts.... sheesh...

[trout1105]

It wasn't registered in Queensland - that's the whole point, so that argument goes in the bin...

It is legal and registered in Victoria - thought at was made quite clear in earlier posts.... sheesh...

This is taken directly from the Vic roads site.
Safe caravanning : VicRoads (https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/safety-and-road-rules/vehicle-safety/safe-caravanning)


Caravan rules & regulations

There are rules and regulations which apply when towing a caravan.


The caravan must be roadworthy.
The caravan must be registered.
Nothing can be towed behind the caravan.
No one can travel inside the caravan.
The towbar must not hide the car's number plate once the caravan has been disconnected.
The caravan cannot be towed by a learner or p1 probationary driver, except under particular conditions.
The caravan cannot exceed weight limits.

Once you have loaded your caravan, its weight should not exceed:


the maximum weight recommended by the caravan manufacturer
the towing limits recommended by the car's manufacturer, or
the weight rating of the towbar.

Some laws can be different from State to State. If you are travelling interstate with your caravan, check individual State or Territory regulations before you leave.

[Mick_Marsh]

This is taken directly from the Vic roads site.
Safe caravanning : VicRoads (https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/safety-and-road-rules/vehicle-safety/safe-caravanning)
And yet it is currently registered in Victoria and legally driven on the road.

[trout1105]

And yet it is currently registered in Victoria and legally driven on the road.

That is the part that I find to be rather Odd because in WA, NSW and VIC it is illegal to do this, It Must be some sort of "Special" permit that has been issued for this particular rig.
It would be interesting to find out exactly how this owner was able to circumvent the ruling that clearly prohibits this type of rig.

[Bigbjorn]

That is the part that I find to be rather Odd because in WA, NSW and VIC it is illegal to do this, It Must be some sort of "Special" permit that has been issued for this particular rig.
It would be interesting to find out exactly how this owner was able to circumvent the ruling that clearly prohibits this type of rig.

And illegal in Qld. Who says it is legal in Victoria? The owner and a provincial newspaper? It would be interesting to ask the opinion of Vicroads and Victoria Police. If it can be legally operated in Victoria contrary to the published regulations then some sort of permit or dispensation must have been granted.

[Mick_Marsh]

the ruling that clearly prohibits this type of rig
I would like to see that ruling.
Not an extract, the whole ruling.

[trout1105]

I would like to see that ruling.
Not an extract, the whole ruling.

It clearly states on that Vic roads page that nothing can be towed behind a caravan.
In WA and QLD the same rule applies.

[trout1105]

And illegal in Qld. Who says it is legal in Victoria? The owner and a provincial newspaper? It would be interesting to ask the opinion of Vicroads and Victoria Police. If it can be legally operated in Victoria contrary to the published regulations then some sort of permit or dispensation must have been granted.

That is the way I see this.
I personally think it is complete madness to allow this sort of setup on the roads.

[Mick_Marsh]

It clearly states on that Vic roads page that nothing can be towed behind a caravan.
In WA and QLD the same rule applies.

So, where is the ruling. The way I see it is you have just posted up unsubstantiated text.
I would like to see the ruling from a court, you know "a ruling" as indicated in a previous post.
It does exist, doesn't it?

[weeds]

So, where is the ruling. The way I see it is you have just posted up unsubstantiated text.
I would like to see the ruling from a court, you know "a ruling" as indicated in a previous post.
It does exist, doesn't it?

Mick, can you show proof the combination is actually legal in VIC....seen paperwork, sign offs etc. or is it just word of mouth, mate of a mate.

[trout1105]

So, where is the ruling. The way I see it is you have just posted up unsubstantiated text.
I would like to see the ruling from a court, you know "a ruling" as indicated in a previous post.
It does exist, doesn't it?

If you use the link I have provided it will take you to the Vic Roads website where I cut and pasted the text from.
It is in NO way "Unsubstantiated" it is word for word from that Vic Roads page, What part of "Nothing can be towed behind the caravan." can't you understand?
Is the Vic Roads web page Wrong?

[Mick_Marsh]

Is the Vic Roads web page Wrong?
It's been known to have incorrect information on it before. Hence the disclaimers.

But you referred to a ruling. That implies an authority has reviewed the legislation and given an interpretation on that legislation.

Where is that ruling and by what authority?

[trout1105]

It's been known to have incorrect information on it before. Hence the disclaimers.

But you referred to a ruling. That implies an authority has reviewed the legislation and given an interpretation on that legislation.

Where is that ruling and by what authority?

Tell you what if you think that the rule on the Vic Roads page is wrong then how about you put up the evidence that it is wrong, Until then as far as I am concerned the part where Nothing is to be towed behind a caravan stands because it is written in black and white without any ambiguity whatsoever on a Government webpage.[thumbsupbig]

[Bigbjorn]

Tell you what if you think that the rule on the Vic Roads page is wrong then how about you put up the evidence that it is wrong, Until then as far as I am concerned the part where Nothing is to be towed behind a caravan stands because it is written in black and white without any ambiguity whatsoever on a Government webpage.[thumbsupbig]

So it is written also on govt. websites covering NSW, WA, Qld. in addition to Vic.

[trout1105]

So it is written also on govt. websites covering NSW, WA, Qld. in addition to Vic.

SHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, It's a Conspiracy.
They are all lying [bigrolf]

[Bigbjorn]

Finally found this on the South Australian Dept of Transport website.

Both vehicles constituting the combination must
meet registration requirements and be roadworthy.
The coupling and towbar must not obscure the
number plate or lights on the rear of the towing
vehicle when the towed vehicle is not attached.
Regulations prohibit towing more than one vehicle or
trailer at once.
When towing, the maximum speed at which you
may tow is the posted speed limit.

[V8Ian]

"Oh, and it is not a road train. That is your opinion that it is. Where does it say it is a road train?"

Well, look at the Qld. Road Rules. A vehicle pulling a full trailer or a prime mover pulling a single semi-trailer is not a road train. Add another full trailer and it is a road train. A car towing a caravan and another trailer behind that is clearly a road train according to the regulations. Some might argue that it is a b-double as there is some tow ball weight placed on the forward vehicles but this is minimal compared to the weight placed on the turntables of a normal commercial b-double so I prefer the road train analogy.
It can't be a road train without a converter dolly.

[Tombie]

Let’s just keep it clear guys...

State rules everywhere also state the maximum level of modifications to vehicles..

And yet, with the proper engineering applications and specs *almost* anything can be rendered road legal...

And whilst we (generalisation) may consider this rig a bad idea, it is quite common in places like the USA..

[Bigbjorn]

And here is Tasmania's input.

From Tasmanian Road Rules on Dept. of Transport website.

Caravans and trailers
You can only tow one caravan or trailer.
It must be securely attached to the towing vehicle by a mechanical coupling and a safety chain. Check the
mechanical coupling to make sure it’s properly adjusted.
All caravans and trailers must have:
● indicator lights
● rear reflectors close to the corners
● tail lights and stop lights
● a number plate light.
A caravan or trailer and its load must not be more than 2.5 metres wide, 4.3 metres high and 19 metres long
(including the towing vehicle).
There are legal limits on the mass of a trailer or caravan that can be towed. Call 1300 135 513 for more
information.

[Bigbjorn]

It can't be a road train without a converter dolly.

Ian, in 2007 there were 2 or 3 body tippers pulling a dog tipper and a pig tipper behind that. No dolly. Pulling sand, gravel, road base, x-blend etc. out of pits near Katherine. Don't know if they were legal, on permit, or just in the NT manner didn't ask for permission. My cousin's husband had three conventional triple side tippers working out of the same pits at the time.

[V8Ian]

Ian, in 2007 there were 2 or 3 body tippers pulling a dog tipper and a pig tipper behind that. No dolly. Pulling sand, gravel, road base, x-blend etc. out of pits near Katherine. Don't know if they were legal, on permit, or just in the NT manner didn't ask for permission. My cousin's husband had three conventional triple side tippers working out of the same pits at the time.
That's a road train. By definition the dog trailer has a dolly. The pig and dog could possibly have been a stag set-up, towed by a body truck.

[Mick_Marsh]

Mick, can you show proof the combination is actually legal in VIC....seen paperwork, sign offs etc. or is it just word of mouth, mate of a mate.

I have posted up a newspaper article and a photo of the rig in Wentworth NSW.
I could post up the registration numbers of the 4WD, van and boat trailer but that will only tell you these vehicles are registered, which is what the same information the registration renewals tell.

The fact is, the fellow is regularly seen driving this rig around and has been for years. Surely he should be in jail by now, hey?

[Mick_Marsh]

Here are the NSW RMS towing regulations.

Rules for towing

Towing more than one trailer at a time is not allowed
Nobody is allowed to ride in trailers or caravans
When towing and driving on a road without street lights, drive at least 60 metres behind heavy vehicles or other vehicles towing trailers,unless overtaking
Learner drivers and learner and provisional motorcycle riders are not allowed to tow
P1 car licence holders can tow small trailers with up to 250 kg of unloaded weight.

And here are the WA regulations

Some laws that you need to know
Vehicles, trailers and caravans must meet registration standards and must be roadworthy.
• All trailers or caravans must have a rear number plate and a registration label holder
fixed to the left side of the body so that the label faces outwards or forwards.
• The coupling and towbar must not obscure the number plate or lights on the rear of
the towing vehicle when no trailer or caravan is attached.
• Regulations prohibit towing more than one trailer at once.
• Nobody is allowed to ride in normally registered trailers or caravans.
• When towing a trailer or caravan the maximum speed at which you may tow is 100
kilometres per hour. You must of course obey the posted speed limits.

The relevant South Australian and Northern Territory websites are not user friendly and appear to only contain minimal information.
None of my trailers (and I have a few) have a registration label holder or a label. Does that mean it's not registered? I hope not. I've just paid this months registrations. Four of them. An awful waste of money if they're not registered.

[trout1105]

We haven't had to display or even been issued with any registration stickers in WA for some time now, That includes my trailers as well.

[pop058]

We haven't had to display or even been issued with any registration stickers in WA for some time now, That includes my trailers as well.

Same for Qld for anything under 4.5T IIRC

[Mick_Marsh]

We haven't had to display or even been issued with any registration stickers in WA for some time now, That includes my trailers as well.
So, you are driving on the roads illegally then or is the information on the website wrong?
I seem to remember covering wrong road rules information on websites somewhere before.

Anyways, I emailed a mate who knows this vehicle better than me. He replied with the relevant link to Vicroads.
Oversize light vehicles : VicRoads (https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/business-and-industry/heavy-vehicle-industry/oversize-light-vehicles)

Apart from B-double trucks and road trains, vehicles aren’t allowed to tow more than one trailer without an exemption from VicRoads. To get an exemption you’ll need a report from an approved Vehicle Assessment Signatory Scheme (VASS) engineer.
Also, I should mention, the VASS is Australia wide.

Also, you will need a MC licence. If you get caught doing this with a car licence you will be charged with driving without a licence.

[Tombie]

Worse you’ll be charged for wrong class of licence and the penalty is greater iirc.

[trout1105]

I can remember being told about the NO rego stickers on TV and getting notified by mail about it from the licencing department when this was introduced.
So there is nothing illegal about not displaying these stickers in WA, Even the police and fire vehicles don't have them.

[Mick_Marsh]

I can remember being told about the NO rego stickers on TV and getting notified by mail about it from the licencing department when this was introduced.
So there is nothing illegal about not displaying these stickers in WA, Even the police and fire vehicles don't have them.
So, are you saying the information on the website is wrong?

[trout1105]

So, are you saying the information on the website is wrong?

https://www.transport.wa.gov.au/mediaFiles/licensing/lbu_vs_ib_107.pdf

The information on that site was accurate at the time of publication, However the document is old (2002) and the requirements have changed since then.
As for Old Mate with his home grown road train I doubt very much that the legislation pertaining to towing multiple trailers has changed, If it has then I would Love to know the name of the lunatic that would sign off on something like that.

[Mick_Marsh]

https://www.transport.wa.gov.au/mediaFiles/licensing/lbu_vs_ib_107.pdf

The information on that site was accurate at the time of publication, However the document is old (2002) and the requirements have changed since then.
As for Old Mate with his home grown road train I doubt very much that the legislation pertaining to towing multiple trailers has changed, If it has then I would Love to know the name of the lunatic that would sign off on something like that.
So it's wrong, then.

Not sure about you but, when it come to matters automotive, I'd put more trust in a qualified automotive engineer who is a signatory to the VASS than an office cleaner. They are very well trained and educated people. I wouldn't suggest they were lunatics.
Mind you, feel free to offer advice when I spill my rubbish bin.

[trout1105]

VASS engineers don't create the legislation as far as I am aware they simply ensure that imported, modified and individually constructed vehicles meet the standards set by the State and BTW I am Not an office cleaner so you can clean up your own bin you rude bugger.
Nobody needs to have a degree in engineering to realise that towing a boat behind a caravan is inherently dangerous.

[Mick_Marsh]

As we will be having more American cars on our roads in the future:
Triple Towing: What You Need To Know Before You Pull 2 Trailers Behind A Car, Truck, Or RV | The RVing Guide (https://rv-roadtrips.thefuntimesguide.com/triple_towing/)

[trout1105]

As we will be having more American cars on our roads in the future:
Triple Towing: What You Need To Know Before You Pull 2 Trailers Behind A Car, Truck, Or RV | The RVing Guide (https://rv-roadtrips.thefuntimesguide.com/triple_towing/)

Just because the Yanks do something doesn't always equate it to being a good idea, Donald Trump is a perfect example of this [bigwhistle]

[Tombie]

I don’t know about that. I think shaking up the Hornets neat occasionally is a good thing!

[mick88]

A very common one here in the Mildura/Sunraysia area during the grape vintage is to see a ute towing a series of two or three wine bine trailers around the back roads, and often along sections of the Calder and other highways. They are a solid and weighty little trailer built to carry up to about 3000kg plus, single axle (usually Land Cruiser wheels), no lights, no brakes, no safety chains, and no rego. Sometimes a tractor will be towing them, but more often than not it's a ute.

Cheers, Mick.

[trout1105]

A very common one here in the Mildura/Sunraysia area during the grape vintage is to see a ute towing a series of two or three wine bine trailers around the back roads, and often along sections of the Calder and other highways. They are a solid and weighty little trailer built to carry up to about 3000kg plus, single axle (usually Land Cruiser wheels), no lights, no brakes, no safety chains, and no rego. Sometimes a tractor will be towing them, but more often than not it's a ute.

Cheers, Mick.

Get a picture of this and post it here or better still put it into a newspaper and it will become a legally registered rig [bigwhistle][bigrolf]

[Mick_Marsh]

A very common one here in the Mildura/Sunraysia area during the grape vintage is to see a ute towing a series of two or three wine bine trailers around the back roads, and often along sections of the Calder and other highways. They are a solid and weighty little trailer built to carry up to about 3000kg plus, single axle (usually Land Cruiser wheels), no lights, no brakes, no safety chains, and no rego. Sometimes a tractor will be towing them, but more often than not it's a ute.

Cheers, Mick.
Yep. You see this sort of thing often during fruit picking season.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/11/23.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/11/24.jpg

[Bigbjorn]

Weel, I got a reply from Transport Main roads Qld.

Here it is.

Our Reference: FI26409 / CCN EN201710311638572115

Dear Mr ******

Thank you for contacting the Department of Transport and Main Roads about light vehicle multi-combination configurations.

Despite the definition of ‘road train’ in Queensland legislation, the Queensland Road Rules (QRR) expressly prohibit the driver of a motor vehicle, other than a heavy vehicle, from towing more than one motor vehicle or trailer. A heavy vehicle is a vehicle with a gross vehicle mass (GVM) of more than 4.5t. This means that it is illegal for a person to tow a light vehicle multi-combination such as the combination depicted in the media article on a road in Queensland. There is no provision in Queensland legislation to exempt a driver from complying with this rule (whether or not a permit has been issued in another jurisdiction).

Generally the road rules in each state and territory are adopted from the Australian Road Rules to provide for uniformity and consistency across the country. However, in this instance, the rules for towing have some differences between jurisdictions. While VicRoads may be able to issue a permit for a light vehicle combination, this option is not available under Queensland legislation.

General information on the legal and safety requirements for towing in Queensland can be found in the safe towing guide.

I trust this information is of assistance. If you require any further information, please contact Ms Karen Tanzer, Policy Advisor, Transport Regulation Branch, on 3066 2616 between 8:00am and 3:00pm, Monday to Friday or by email to Karen.j.tanzer@tmr.qld.gov.au.

Yours sincerely,

Elizabeth Garbutt
Principal Policy Advisor (Licensing)

So it appears Mr. Mildura could be on dangerous ground if he tows his rig in Qld. An illegal vehicle combination can be considered an unregistered and unroadworthy vehicle thus making his insurances void. Qld. TMR reckon the Victorian VASS is not recognised in Qld .as it refers to an illegal vehicle and activity.

I spent a bit of time on the 'phone with RMS and at first the person thought I was joking. Then 'phoned back with a similar opinion to the Qld. one.

[Homestar]

That shows how crap our State bases laws are and the need for National road rules, etc. legal in his home state but would almost certainly be booked travelling interstate.

Not saying this should be legal by the way, just another area that could cause issues when travelling interstate with what you think is something legal.

[Tins]

Just because the Yanks do something doesn't always equate it to being a good idea, Donald Trump is a perfect example of this [bigwhistle]

I thought political comments were a no no on this site.

[Tombie]

Just because the Yanks do something doesn't always equate it to being a good idea, Donald Trump is a perfect example of this [bigwhistle]

And yet the world hasn’t come to an end, it’s not at war, The US economy is in the improve....

Just because he’s not PC, refined, and is outspoken isn’t necessarily a bad thing (not saying it’s a good thing either)

[trout1105]

I thought political comments were a no no on this site.

The comment wasn't intended as political, Just as an example of something that I personally wouldn't want as another American export to Australia like the stupid Gun laws and trigger happy Coppers that America is also famous for [bigwhistle]

[Bigbjorn]

That shows how crap our State bases laws are and the need for National road rules, etc. legal in his home state but would almost certainly be booked travelling interstate.

Not saying this should be legal by the way, just another area that could cause issues when travelling interstate with what you think is something legal.

Given that Vic roads have historically been most difficult to deal with, I wonder if the VASS report given by a private sector engineer and subsequently Vic roads giving permission to operate an illegal combination in an illegal activity was the end result of a "cross my palm with silver" decision.

Road rules and towing regulations in all states including Victoria clearly prohibit towing more than one trailer. Qld. TMR state that the dept does not have the legislative authority to vary this and the Vic. permission has no force in Qld. RMS head office Sydney gave verbally a similar reply to my telephone enquiry.

[trout1105]

Given that Vic roads have historically been most difficult to deal with, I wonder if the VASS report given by a private sector engineer and subsequently Vic roads giving permission to operate an illegal combination in an illegal activity was the end result of a "cross my palm with silver" decision.

Road rules and towing regulations in all states including Victoria clearly prohibit towing more than one trailer. Qld. TMR state that the dept does not have the legislative authority to vary this and the Vic. permission has no force in Qld. RMS head office Sydney gave verbally a similar reply to my telephone enquiry.

There is much evidence that has been posted in this thread that Old Mates rig in Mildura is Not compliant with the Vic roads regulations as to what can and cannot be towed behind a car.
There has most likely been a "cock up" at the Mildura licencing centre when this type of towing system was allowed or Old Mate just decided to do it any way and hasn't been Busted for it yet by the local constabulary .

[V8Ian]

It wouldn't be the first permit written out, knowing that it wasn't worth the paper it was written on. [bigwhistle]

[Homestar]

This thread is the gift that keeps on giving.... 😂

[Mick_Marsh]

Absolutely, Homey.

Ian, the fellow in Mildura does not have a permit, never had one, does not need one.
The setup is fully registered, VASS certified and the driver is licenced.

I saw another two trailer setup NT registered (by the plates) and being driven on the road on facebook. Can't save the video.
Saw an interesting one yesterday in SA. A tractor towing a boom sprayer (booms folded) towing a Landcruiser on an A frame. Driving on highway no.1 no less.

[Mick_Marsh]

Weel, I got a reply from Transport Main roads Qld.

Here it is.

.................................................. ...

So it appears Mr. Mildura could be on dangerous ground if he tows his rig in Qld. An illegal vehicle combination can be considered an unregistered and unroadworthy vehicle thus making his insurances void. Qld. TMR reckon the Victorian VASS is not recognised in Qld .as it refers to an illegal vehicle and activity.

I spent a bit of time on the 'phone with RMS and at first the person thought I was joking. Then 'phoned back with a similar opinion to the Qld. one.

So, what I get from your post is my Landrover, which is registered in Victoria and has Victorian engineering approval (before the VAS Scheme) cannot be driven in Queensland.
Suits me fine. Just another reason not to spend my tourist dollar in that state.

In Victoria, we welcome interstaters.

[donh54]

So, what I get from your post is my Landrover, which is registered in Victoria and has Victorian engineering approval (before the VAS Scheme) cannot be driven in Queensland.
Suits me fine. Just another reason not to spend my tourist dollar in that state.

In Victoria, we welcome interstaters.

Only if the engineering approval is for multiple trailers or something otherwise illegal in Qld.
We have sufficient bogan-built vehicles, without needing to import any :bigrolf:

[Homestar]

So what exactly is the law when travelling interstate with a legal vehicle in your home state - with all applicable certificates and permits, etc? Would you be fined by interstate Police if your vehicle breached regulations in that state but not your own? I would have thought this could be challenged but no idea really.

[trout1105]

So what exactly is the law when travelling interstate with a legal vehicle in your home state - with all applicable certificates and permits, etc? Would you be fined by interstate Police if your vehicle breached regulations in that state but not your own? I would have thought this could be challenged but no idea really.

As with anything else the onus is on yourself to abide with the laws and regulations that are in place for whichever State you intend to travel to, So If you have a modified vehicle then it is important to do your own research to ensure that the modifications are legal in the State you wish to go to.
You can and most likely will be fined if you are in breach of any of the regulations that are in place in the State/States that you travel to or through and ignorance of any law is Not a defence so challenging it is pointless So it is important to do your research Before you travel so that you can avoid any unpleasantness [thumbsupbig]

[Homestar]

Ok, I got a bite so what about the following...

What about my roadworthy, registered caravan I have? In Vic it is legal to register it without a gas certificate but in other states, they require this - can I take my safe, legal and registered van into NSW without getting booked? No?

How about my car? I don't have a pink slip or whatever it's called for its annual roadworthy as that's not required here - can I get booked for that too, I'm certainly not complying with that States legislation there....

The point I'm making is where is the line and if you can't or don't get booked for not having an annual roadworthy even though that's a requirement in NSW, why is it different if I take my legally modified car interstate where those mods aren't recognised?

I think some legal eagle could make some money on a court case if someone with deep enough pockets challenged this...

Where is the line on what is and isn't allowed interstate when it's complying with its own states laws?

If there's no specific laws written about certain exceptions (there could be, I don't know) then they can't expect to book someone for a legally modified vehicle - or permitted vehicle - without booking every car that comes into the state for breach of other state based laws....

[Homestar]

Given that Vic roads have historically been most difficult to deal with...

Says who? I find them very easy to deal with - never had an issue and I've registered all sorts of things including vehicles they have required VASS certificates, other modified vehicles, deceased estates, etc, etc. All their requirements for anything you need to do is on their website - comply with these and its simple as. Those that have issues usually have themselves to blame for not following correct procedure then blame it on Vicroads because it's easier than admitting your a ****tard...

[Tombie]

As with anything else the onus is on yourself to abide with the laws and regulations that are in place for whichever State you intend to travel to, So If you have a modified vehicle then it is important to do your own research to ensure that the modifications are legal in the State you wish to go to.
You can and most likely will be fined if you are in breach of any of the regulations that are in place in the State/States that you travel to or through and ignorance of any law is Not a defence so challenging it is pointless So it is important to do your research Before you travel so that you can avoid any unpleasantness [thumbsupbig]

What a load of codswallop...

Your vehicle - if legal in the state of registration is allowed to travel through other states and territories of Australia.

You must however, abide by local traffic laws etc (speed limits and the like, so you can’t tow at 110 in WA for example).

[Tombie]

Says who? I find them very easy to deal with - never had an issue and I've registered all sorts of things including vehicles they have required VASS certificates, other modified vehicles, deceased estates, etc, etc. All their requirements for anything you need to do is on their website - comply with these and its simple as. Those that have issues usually have themselves to blame for not following correct procedure then blame it on Vicroads because it's easier than admitting your a ****tard...

Seems a lot of that goes on everywhere [emoji6]

How many “P”s was that phrase [emoji56][emoji56]

[trout1105]

Ok, I got a bite so what about the following...

What about my roadworthy, registered caravan I have? In Vic it is legal to register it without a gas certificate but in other states, they require this - can I take my safe, legal and registered van into NSW without getting booked? No?

How about my car? I don't have a pink slip or whatever it's called for its annual roadworthy as that's not required here - can I get booked for that too, I'm certainly not complying with that States legislation there....

The point I'm making is where is the line and if you can't or don't get booked for not having an annual roadworthy even though that's a requirement in NSW, why is it different if I take my legally modified car interstate where those mods aren't recognised?

I think some legal eagle could make some money on a court case if someone with deep enough pockets challenged this...

Where is the line on what is and isn't allowed interstate when it's complying with its own states laws?

If there's no specific laws written about certain exceptions (there could be, I don't know) then they can't expect to book someone for a legally modified vehicle - or permitted vehicle - without booking every car that comes into the state for breach of other state based laws....

Like I said it is entirely up to You yourself to ensure that whatever vehicle you take interstate is compliant with the various States regulations, Just because something is legal in one State doesn't automatically make it legal in another State and it is YOUR "Duty of Care" to ensure that the vehicle complies with whatever Law/Regulation is in place in a different State.

[Ancient Mariner]

"intercourse" is the ability "to pass to and fro among the States without burden, hindrance or restriction" Sec 92 constitution I would take to imply as long as legal in one state you should not have a problem

AM

[trout1105]

"intercourse" is the ability "to pass to and fro among the States without burden, hindrance or restriction" Sec 92 constitution I would take to imply as long as legal in one state you should not have a problem

AM

I understand that part of the constitution refers to "Free Trade" ( Customs and Duties) and has absolutely nothing to do with vehicle licencing whatsoever.

[Homestar]

Like I said it is entirely up to You yourself to ensure that whatever vehicle you take interstate is compliant with the various States regulations, Just because something is legal in one State doesn't automatically make it legal in another State and it is YOUR "Duty of Care" to ensure that the vehicle complies with whatever Law/Regulation is in place in a different State.

That didn't answer my question at all - you just restated your previous post. If I drive my Vic registered car into NSW am I breaking the law and leaving myself open to a fine for not having a pink slip or annual RWC for the vehicle?

[Homestar]

I understand that part of the constitution refers to "Free Trade" ( Customs and Duties) and has absolutely nothing to do with vehicle licencing whatsoever.

Can't a vehicle be used in the process of free trade?

[trout1105]

That didn't answer my question at all - you just restated your previous post. If I drive my Vic registered car into NSW am I breaking the law and leaving myself open to a fine for not having a pink slip or annual RWC for the vehicle?

If your vehicle is Bog standard then of course you can.


What a load of codswallop...

Your vehicle - if legal in the state of registration is allowed to travel through other states and territories of Australia.

You must however, abide by local traffic laws etc (speed limits and the like, so you can’t tow at 110 in WA for example).

What about the placement of light bars, fishing rod holders etc. that have different rulings in different states.
A Bog standard vehicle that is registered Anywhere in Australia can travel anywhere in Aus, It's the Mods that people do to their vehicles that can be problematic.

[Homestar]

If your vehicle is Bog standard then of course you can.


But what are you basing that on? Got a reference to back up this statement? Would like to see it (not being faceicious either here, would genuinely like to see where it says this).

It just goes against you’re other statement - on one hand your saying you can drive a car interstate that doesn’t meet state regulations (say my bog standard car without a pink slip), but then you say you can’t - unless there is actually legislation stating about the standard vehicle bit aren’t they all in the same category? Either complying with state legislation or not? If there is a difference in how these are viewed, then there will be a law written somewhere stating this I’m sure.

As we’re not Lawyers (unless you are? I’m sure as **** not! 😆) I guess it’s only speculation on both sides huh...

[V8Ian]

That didn't answer my question at all - you just restated your previous post. If I drive my Vic registered car into NSW am I breaking the law and leaving myself open to a fine for not having a pink slip or annual RWC for the vehicle?
A pink slip is required to register the vehicle in NSW, not to drive. Different states have different hoops to jump through for rego, but recognise each other's rego.

[V8Ian]

Can't a vehicle be used in the process of free trade?
A commercial vehicle can. Under that section of the constitution vehicles could be operated on interstate routes without paying rego, hence the old IS plates, where only third party insurance was payable. This was superseded by the FIR scheme, as the federal government could charge taxes disallowed by States.

[trout1105]

[QUOTE=Homestar;2743313]But what are you basing that on? Got a reference to back up this statement? Would like to see it (not being faceicious either here, would genuinely like to see where it says this).
QUOTE]

I have driven interstate on many occasions and have also transferred vehicle and drivers licences over without any problems whatsoever, That is what I am backing up my statement with [thumbsupbig]
I think you ARE being factitious BTW.

[Homestar]

A pink slip is required to register the vehicle in NSW, not to drive. Different states have different hoops to jump through for rego, but recognise each other's rego.

What happens if you drive a car without a current pink slip?

[Mick_Marsh]

A pink slip is required to register the vehicle in NSW, not to drive. Different states have different hoops to jump through for rego, but recognise each other's rego.
So, they would recognize the registrations of the fellow from Mildura.

[Tombie]

If your vehicle is Bog standard then of course you can.



What about the placement of light bars, fishing rod holders etc. that have different rulings in different states.
A Bog standard vehicle that is registered Anywhere in Australia can travel anywhere in Aus, It's the Mods that people do to their vehicles that can be problematic.

If the Light bar is legal fitment in State of Registration, then it’s legal to pass through the other states with it in place.

Rod holders and ALL forward protrusions that can harm pedestrians are banned everywhere - more just tolerated in some areas than others.

Legal mods - legal to the state of registration - are fine for travel through other states... this includes engineering certificates for big lifts, larger rubber, engine modifications etc..

[V8Ian]

So, they would recognize the registrations of the fellow from Mildura.
A triple road train can be legally driven in Queensland but not in Victoria, they don't even allow doubles.

[trout1105]

So, they would recognize the registrations of the fellow from Mildura.

I would strongly doubt that would be the case .

[Homestar]

A triple road train can be legally driven in Queensland but not in Victoria, they don't even allow doubles.

There are places where road train doubles can be used in Vic now - even in Melbourne on some routes - they can be seen regularly between the docks and various yards around the Western burbs, on the ring road, along parts of the western highway too - permits are issued on a case by case basis - all container skels from what I’ve seen. Also legal in some rural areas, but yep - a triple is a bridge too far here - it’s a small state, there isn’t enough room to turn them around. 😆

https://www.nhvr.gov.au/files/201705-0528-road-trains-in-victoria-information-sheet.pdf

[V8Ian]

So, they would recognize the registrations of the fellow from Mildura.
The regos would be recognised but the combination wouldn't, just as a legally Queensland regoed triple road train is disallowed in Victoria.

[Mick_Marsh]

The regos would be recognised but the combination wouldn't, just as a legally Queensland regoed triple road train is disallowed in Victoria.
The main reason triple road trains aren't allowed in Victoria is that the infrastructure isn't up to it. That will soon be a thing of the past. Over the last few years there have been some major upgrades on bridges on major transport routes. The authorities have been trialling empty triple road train empty skels on some major transport routes.

[V8Ian]

The reason is irrelevant, just because a combination of vehicles is legal in one state does not automatically make it legal in another.
Out of interest, I wonder if ol' mate's rego increased with the "authority".

[Mick_Marsh]

The reason is irrelevant, just because a combination of vehicles is legal in one state does not automatically make it legal in another.
So, I can drive on any road in Queensland in a triple road train legally. That's good to know.

Out of interest, I wonder if ol' mate's rego increased with the "authority".
As far as I am aware, he pays registration for the Landcruiser and each trailer. As the combination is well within the GCM of the Landcruiser, no extra charges are applicable.

[V8Ian]

So, I can drive on any road in Queensland in a triple road train legally. That's good to know.
Have you got an MC licence?

As far as I am aware, he pays registration for the Landcruiser and each trailer. As the combination is well within the GCM of the Landcruiser, no extra charges are applicable.
A prime mover rego cost increases with the number of trailers towed. Trailer rego increases if it the trailer can tow another trailer.
i.e. Two identical trailers will pay different costs if a ring-feeder is attached to one.

[Mick_Marsh]

A prime mover rego cost increases with the number of trailers towed. Trailer rego increases if it the trailer can tow another trailer.
i.e. Two identical trailers will pay different costs if a ring-feeder is attached to one.
How does that work? If I go out with two trailers and come back with one, how do I claim a refund on the prime mover registration?

[V8Ian]

How does that work? If I go out with two trailers and come back with one, how do I claim a refund on the prime mover registration?
You don't! You pay the greater rate. Or double check the coupling before leaving.[bigrolf]

[Mick_Marsh]

The NHVR sets the registration rates for trucks. The state sets the registration rate for vehicles up to 4.5t GVM.
That explains why a 4x4 Perentie is more expensive to register in ACT than a 6x6.


You don't! You pay the greater rate. Or double check the coupling before leaving.[bigrolf]
So, is that say, I pay two trailer capacity registration on the prime mover, I can tow anything up to two trailers but, if I tow three, I'm done. Even though the prime mover is capable of towing three.

[V8Ian]

The NHVR sets the registration rates for trucks. The state sets the registration rate for vehicles up to 4.5t GVM.
That explains why a 4x4 Perentie is more expensive to register in ACT than a 6x6.


So, is that say, I pay two trailer capacity registration on the prime mover, I can tow anything up to two trailers but, if I tow three, I'm done. Even though the prime mover is capable of towing three.
That's correct Mick.

[donh54]

So, I can drive on any road in Queensland in a triple road train legally. That's good to know.
.

Only on the roads that are gazetted as Type II road train routes (just like real truck drivers have to do).

Chances of a problem regarding interstate rules and regs, IMHO, are directly proportional to the level of stupidity, ignorance or irascibility you display when driving, or when communicating with an officer of said State.

[Bigbjorn]

Only on the roads that are gazetted as Type II road train routes (just like real truck drivers have to do).

Chances of a problem regarding interstate rules and regs, IMHO, are directly proportional to the level of stupidity, ignorance or irascibility you display when driving, or when communicating with an officer of said State.

Road trains can only operate in designated geographical areas and in some cases only on designated roads. Mr. Mildura if allowed to tow his double in Qld. (unlikely by the tone for the reply from the TMR) would have to drop off his second trailer when leaving these areas and return for it after dropping off the lead trailer.

[Mick_Marsh]

Road trains can only operate in designated geographical areas and in some cases only on designated roads. Mr. Mildura if allowed to tow his double in Qld. (unlikely by the tone for the reply from the TMR) would have to drop off his second trailer when leaving these areas and return for it after dropping off the lead trailer.
As has been said many times before, the setup in Mildura is NOT a road train.
It is too short. Road train restrictions DO NOT apply to this vehicle.

[Homestar]

Road trains can only operate in designated geographical areas and in some cases only on designated roads. Mr. Mildura if allowed to tow his double in Qld. (unlikely by the tone for the reply from the TMR) would have to drop off his second trailer when leaving these areas and return for it after dropping off the lead trailer.

Umm, It's not a toad train...

[Bigbjorn]

Umm, It's not a toad train...

The point is it is an illegal combination in all states. Note that ALL STATES includes Victoria . See the road rules and towing regulations on the individual state web sites. apparently a private sector engineer has issued a report and someone in Vicroads accepted this thus approving an illegal vehicle to engage in an illegal activity.

See Post#128. Qld. TMR unequivocally state that this combination can not be operated legally in Qld. The Vic. VASS is not accepted by TMR and TMR has no legislative authority to approve such a combination. The only chance he has of operating in Qld as a light vehicle multi-combination is by getting a prime mover of 4.5+ tonnes Manufacturers GVM and applying for a Road Train Permit. Most unlikely that such would be granted and if granted would restrict operation under the Road Train rules. He could, of course, buy two proper trailers as well as the heavy prime mover and bung his boat and caravan up on them (road train again) or one 40' semi-trailer to take them both.

NSW RMS gave me a similar reply per a telephone call and call back to their head office in Sydney.

[V8Ian]

The Mildura setup is not a road train. With two trailers and two articulation points, it has to be classed as a B double. If it is under 19 metres it will have general access, that is if it is legal.

[Mick_Marsh]

NSW RMS gave me a similar reply per a telephone call and call back to their head office in Sydney.

I had an interesting conversation with RMS today.
I have a Stage 1 that has a V8 petrol instead of the original 4cyl diesel, is a tray instead of the original wagon, coil springs instead of the original leaf springs and disc brakes instead of the original drums. Oh, it is 9" shorter too.
It has an independent engineers report from before the VAS Scheme and is currently registered in Victoria.
I said I had read I will not be able to drive it in NSW as the engineering modifications may not be recognised in NSW.
I was told, as long as it satisfies the conditions of registration in it's home state, and I am only temporarily in NSW, I will be able to drive it in NSW.
The fellow in Mildura satisfies these conditions, therefore, he can drive it in NSW.
The person at RMS directed me to this website:
Get a NSW registration - Registration - Roads - Roads and Maritime Services (http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/roads/registration/get-nsw-registration/index.html)

Interstate vehicles

Any vehicle (including a caravan or trailer), which is driven on NSW roads must be registered in NSW. An exemption to this requirement applies when the vehicle is:

temporarily in NSW, and
currently registered in another state (‘the home state’), and
displaying all the number plates and registration labels required by the home state.
Apparently, that's good enough for them.

Its how you ask the question. If you start mentioning things like "road trains" (which is not applicable in this situation), you will get incorrect, misinformed answers.

[Homestar]

The point is it is an illegal combination in all states. Note that ALL STATES includes Victoria . See the road rules and towing regulations on the individual state web sites. apparently a private sector engineer has issued a report and someone in Vicroads accepted this thus approving an illegal vehicle to engage in an illegal activity.

See Post#128. Qld. TMR unequivocally state that this combination can not be operated legally in Qld. The Vic. VASS is not accepted by TMR and TMR has no legislative authority to approve such a combination. The only chance he has of operating in Qld as a light vehicle multi-combination is by getting a prime mover of 4.5+ tonnes Manufacturers GVM and applying for a Road Train Permit. Most unlikely that such would be granted and if granted would restrict operation under the Road Train rules. He could, of course, buy two proper trailers as well as the heavy prime mover and bung his boat and caravan up on them (road train again) or one 40' semi-trailer to take them both.

NSW RMS gave me a similar reply per a telephone call and call back to their head office in Sydney.

No, it's quite legal in Vic with certification - the regs for this have been posted previously in this thread and the wording is unambiguous - it IS legal - with a VASS certificate and VicRoads approval - that's beyond doubt and question - are you not reading the links posted? I'm not making it up, I posted a link to the Vicroads website which you clearly haven't read...

We have moved to is it legal to take interstate which the answer appears to be yes.

Keep up will you...

[Tins]

Fascinating discussion. Not getting heated at all, much. On a forum that has threads about putting LS1/2/3s in County LRs, Modding chassis, modding brakes, modding steering, converting cars into utes, utes into wagons, fitting portals, converting to 6WD, swapping bodies, changing GVM, changing wheel diameters, changing wheel off-sets, deleting emission controls, and the list goes on, ALL of which require approval, 99% require a VASS certification, and everyone who has posted on this thread would be happy to accept that, once the VASS certification was there, that the modded vehicle could be registered, and we have people getting bent out of shape over this? Seriously? All of the things I mention are inherently dangerous. If this combo has been cerified, then where is the problem? The truck drivers here will know that trucks get modified ALL the time. Trailers too. Chassis shortening, chassis lengthening, more axles, less axles, engine changes, suspension changes, brake changes. It happens with ships, it happens with aircraft, it happens with bridges, it happens with buildings. It is why you cannot buy an engineering degree, that is recognised here, off the internet.

If this combo has been approved by a VASS, and has been accepted by VicRoads, it doesn't matter a jot what you or I think. Get over it.

Oh, it has been said already, but do please feel free to visit the Roads site of your choice and peruse the definition of "Road Train". It can be enlightening for those who do not know what one is, and there seem to be plenty here that fit that bill.

[Mick_Marsh]

Fascinating discussion. Not getting heated at all, much. On a forum that has threads about putting LS1/2/3s in County LRs, Modding chassis, modding brakes, modding steering, converting cars into utes, utes into wagons, fitting portals, converting to 6WD, swapping bodies, changing GVM, changing wheel diameters, changing wheel off-sets, deleting emission controls, and the list goes on, ALL of which require approval, 99% require a VASS certification, and everyone who has posted on this thread would be happy to accept that, once the VASS certification was there, that the modded vehicle could be registered, and we have people getting bent out of shape over this? Seriously? All of the things I mention are inherently dangerous. If this combo has been cerified, then where is the problem? The truck drivers here will know that trucks get modified ALL the time. Trailers too. Chassis shortening, chassis lengthening, more axles, less axles, engine changes, suspension changes, brake changes. It happens with ships, it happens with aircraft, it happens with bridges, it happens with buildings. It is why you cannot buy an engineering degree, that is recognised here, off the internet.

If this combo has been approved by a VASS, and has been accepted by VicRoads, it doesn't matter a jot what you or I think. Get over it.

Oh, it has been said already, but do please feel free to visit the Roads site of your choice and peruse the definition of "Road Train". It can be enlightening for those who do not know what one is, and there seem to be plenty here that fit that bill.
Very well said, Mr Tins. So well said, I thought it required repeating.

[Tins]

Very well said, Mr Tins. So well said, I thought it required repeating.

Mr Marsh, thank you for the repetition. I have a little to get off my chest right now, and sometimes this can be the place. Besides, I would have said pretty much the same thing in any case. The whole argument is ridiculous. It's OK, or it isn't. Opinion does not count.

[V8Ian]

In 60 years of driving I have seen some eye-popping unsafe loads. The most recent was between Warwick and Dalveen. A smaller Asiatic station wagon with a larger, about 8' x 4', single axle box trailer. The trailer was piled up with a fridge-freezer, washing machine, tumble dryer, a couple of tea chests and two armchairs tied down on top. A roof rack on the wagon was carrying a three seat sofa. The wagon's interior was chocka with household goods.

A few years ago on the afternoon of Easter Thursday, we were sitting in the sales office destroying a carton and watching the traffic jam on the main road out front. A car crawled past with a caravan and a boat and trailer hitched on behind the van. We were all speechless and all spoke at once "did you see that?" I have wondered since how far he got before some observant copper or transport nazi noticed.
Driver avoids jail over fatal crash after trailer came loose from 'makeshift road train' - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-09/perth-driver-avoids-jail-over-makeshift-road-train-death/9417266)

[Mick_Marsh]

Driver avoids jail over fatal crash after trailer came loose from 'makeshift road train' - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-09/perth-driver-avoids-jail-over-makeshift-road-train-death/9417266)

A couple of points from the article:

He said Ten Vaanholt was not licensed to drive such a vehicle, while the caravan itself was not designed or certified to tow anything.

And the other point which he should be charged over whether it was hitched on the back of a caravan or a car:

When the trailer was weighed after the crash, it was found to be more than one-and-a-half tonnes over the recommended capacity.

The question I would ask is why didn't the electric brakes on both axles of the trailer work? What is that I hear? The trailer was only rated to two tonne so it only had override brakes on one axle, therefore, once the trailer had detached, it an unbraked missile.
I doubt it even the chains were securely attached.

Yeah. Lots of other things went wrong with that crash.

[V8Ian]

I'm wondering what was the GCM of the ute.

[Mick_Marsh]

I'm wondering what was the GCM of the ute.
I'm tipping the ute was rated to tow 3t. Maybe 3.5t.
I'm also tipping that trailer was 3.5t.
Caravans ain't weightless. 1500kg perhaps?

So, a vehicle rated to tow 3.5t was probably towing 5t.


Unless he was driving a F650.

[mick88]

The point is it is an illegal combination in all states. Note that ALL STATES includes Victoria . See the road rules and towing regulations on the individual state web sites. apparently a private sector engineer has issued a report and someone in Vicroads accepted this thus approving an illegal vehicle to engage in an illegal activity.

See Post#128. Qld. TMR unequivocally state that this combination can not be operated legally in Qld. The Vic. VASS is not accepted by TMR and TMR has no legislative authority to approve such a combination. The only chance he has of operating in Qld as a light vehicle multi-combination is by getting a prime mover of 4.5+ tonnes Manufacturers GVM and applying for a Road Train Permit. Most unlikely that such would be granted and if granted would restrict operation under the Road Train rules. He could, of course, buy two proper trailers as well as the heavy prime mover and bung his boat and caravan up on them (road train again) or one 40' semi-trailer to take them both.

NSW RMS gave me a similar reply per a telephone call and call back to their head office in Sydney.

Are you saying "road trains" are illegal in Victoria?
At present there are road trains galore running up and down the northern end of the Calder, and along the Mallee Highway.
I spotted three today on a short drive of about ten kays along the Calder.

Cheers, Mick.

[mick88]

Absolutely, Homey.

Ian, the fellow in Mildura does not have a permit, never had one, does not need one.
The setup is fully registered, VASS certified and the driver is licenced.

I saw another two trailer setup NT registered (by the plates) and being driven on the road on facebook. Can't save the video.
Saw an interesting one yesterday in SA. A tractor towing a boom sprayer (booms folded) towing a Landcruiser on an A frame. Driving on highway no.1 no less.

Common in the outback to see graders towing a caravan, then "A" framing a ute or a 4x4 , and very often among the mix, there may also be a trailer with a fuel tanker.

Cheers, Mick.

[kelvo]

The ute was a Dodge Ram, not sure the exact model but it was a BIG one.

The caravan was an American 5th wheeler.

The trailer that detached was rated to 3t, but was 1.5t over.

https://www.perthnow.com.au/news/crime/makeshift-road-train-driver-avoids-jail-over-fatal-crash-ng-b88740689z

[Mick_Marsh]

Woah!

Even bigger than I thought.

On a fifth wheel, the Dodge ram can tow just shy of seven tonne.

[mick88]

What about this one in WA.
Multiple multi combination.

Novelty barrel train helps keep remote school attendance rates on track in Pilbara - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-28/punmu-students-use-barrel-train-to-travel-to-school/8660878)


Cheer, Mick.

[V8Ian]

Are you saying "road trains" are illegal in Victoria?
At present there are road trains galore running up and down the northern end of the Calder, and along the Mallee Highway.
I spotted three today on a short drive of about ten kays along the Calder.

Cheers, Mick.
You more than likely saw A Doubles, not Road Trains, a rose by any other name.......
A Doubles operate under a PBS scheme and are slightly shorter (in the converter dollies) than Road trains. They display LONG VEHICLE signage as opposed to ROAD TRAIN. We can't have the Ma and Pa Kettles scared of big road trains running about their streets.

[LRT]

These are travelling through our area now:

PBS Road Train Provides Payload Advantages | Hamelex White (http://www.hamelexwhite.com.au/pbs-road-train-provides-payload-advantages/)

[mick88]

You more than likely saw A Doubles, not Road Trains, a rose by any other name.......
A Doubles operate under a PBS scheme and are slightly shorter (in the converter dollies) than Road trains. They display LONG VEHICLE signage as opposed to ROAD TRAIN. We can't have the Ma and Pa Kettles scared of big road trains running about their streets.

I will have a look today and see what signage they display.
Looked the same as this one in the bottom pic.

[mick88]

I didn't see any of the regular ones that are running up and down the Calder, however I spotted another parked on the side of the road in Red Cliffs. It was loaded with empty wine grape bins. I pulled up and had a yarn with the driver who also happens to own the truck. It is full road train, not an "A" Double and displays Road Train on the front. He said he is operating on a permit, which costs him $70 per annum. His dolly registration was $1100 per year, but a few years back they (Vicroads) reduced it to $60.

Cheers, Mick.