TDI Vs TD5 Vs PUMA

[saltynomad]

Hi All,

New member here and Defender owner/enthusiast.

Looking for some advice on a new purchase and appreciate any input from the community.

My wife and I have welcomed our new baby girl into the family and we are on the hunt to replace our
1995 300TDI Defender 110 - 2 door hardtop. (Ironically the guy I bought it off years ago was selling it as he just had his first kid
as well!!)

I'm looking for a 110 or maybe a 130, I'm comfortable and familiar with the TDI engines but have little experience with the TD5's and the new TDCI Puma engines.

With the Puma's running well into the $40K+ price tag, I'm skeptical about any associated issues with the new tech and electrics Vs the old tried and tested TDI and TD5.

I've already looked at a few vehicles, but haven't found what I'm looking for.

Cosmetics, paint, dings, dents, I'm not fussed.. I'm more interested in a well looked after vehicle with good running gear, maintenance history and I don't like the idea of buying from a non Defender enthusiast, as we all know.. It's a labour of love.

So I'm open to being educated on any pro's and con's with the TDI vs TD5 vs TDCI models, plus any more tips on what to look for as I keep hunting for a new family rig.

We are planning on making this next purchase a "forever" Defender.

Appreciate your time.

Cheers,
Salty

[JoshV12345]

I think the differences between them have been discussed in heaps of other threads but I’ll tell you my opinion, I went from a tdi to a td5 early this year (110 to 130) and I love it. I was a bit scared about the electronics but a defender has very minimal and it’s easy to find problems. One thing you might want to consider with kids is the older ones, even the td5 have pretty **** air con. I know I’m my situation ( mine doesn’t have it) it can get really hot even with both vents open and your right eye will get wind burn when you have the window down. It’s almost at the point where you don’t want to go anywhere together because it’s so hot, even though it doesn’t bother me, it bothers my partner. Don’t know if that will effect you, it’s more an issue if you plan to go away for a few days/weeks touring. The other thing would be I bought a low ks td5 but even though I’ve had to spend quite a bit of money on stuff eg fuel regulator repair, injector harness, seals. Stuff like that could go wrong or fail within 5-10000ks of owning it, especially as td5s are getting quite old now. So I’d be very careful to check maintenance not just for oil changes but for that sort of thing as well. I wouldn’t go back to a tdi, they’re too slow, good if you want simplicity though.

[roverrescue]

In my opinion and experience you should consider a late model 130 trayback

Here is why:

-Forever defender may as well be newer might spend more up front but will need less work
-With new bub and assuming long trips you want aircon - 130 cab cools better than 110
-Space of 130 better than 110
-Under my tray I have 75L dieso 75L water spare tyre and small tool drawer, can fit two fridges all our gear plus all the extra camping stuff a baby brings!!!!
-despite some unique engineering decisions made by LR with the tdci everything is controllable no more or less than old school.
-agree you should look for a rig pre-owned by an enthusiast my 130 came from a legend member who had babied it and spent hours sealing andnsoundproofing it, with a few mods like grease able intermediate shaft between tcase and mt82

Have fun and enjoy the journey

S

[rangieman]

Wow here we go again131069

[Robmacca]

I'm in a similar situation as yourself in that I would like to at some point upgrade to a later version Defender that I would plan to keep for a long time. I've currently got a Tdi300 that I'm still getting ready for a our 1st major family trip.


My thoughts when upgrading are:
# A/C that will suitably work (A/C in a Td5 is no difference to the A/C in a Tdi - I currently don't A/C so it will be interesting to see how everyone handles our trip at Christmas)
# Gearing - Better gearing in the Pumas (lower 1st gear which when towing, u shouldn't have to drop it into LowRange when taking off on a incline when towing)
# Puma is a Newer vehicle which hopefully means less potential issues ( I know, not always)
# Puma has a more car like interior that I think will be more suitable for the missus
# Puma is more tune-able with a better outcome than the Td5 (just from what I've seemed to have experienced though)
# Pumas are no way as noisy in-cab as the Td5's
# Concerns over the amount of electronics in the Puma, but to date there seems to be little problems/issues with their electronics....
# Td5's are currently cheaper to buy than the Pumas.... This may or may not matter if keeping long term
# Drivelines (ie: Diffs & Transfer Case - they have different G'boxes) are similar between the Pumas and the post '03 Td5's (I believe Td5's before '03 still had the salisbury rear diffs?)




these are only my thoughts and others more experienced will have different opinions


ideally I'd like to keep my old Tdi300 and buy a Puma, but that depends on a few things falling into place.....




rob

[strangy]

Wow here we go again131069

Indeed...
I'm sure an near identical thread topic was posted in the past.

So, to the OP, welcome and make use of the search function on google and AULRO and all your questions will be answered, as well as many you didn't ask and at the end of it all....

Most buy according to budget and many of those get burnt regardless of engine type because the true determining factor was always cheap as possible.

As you own a Defender virtually all problems/niggles carry through the years so it will only be engine preference to research.
First dealer you pass with a Defender just go test drive it.
Welcome again and enjoy the process.[emoji106]

[Fubar]

We are planning on making this next purchase a "forever" Defender.

I bought my forever Defender (99' Td5) 5 years ago with the intention of replacing the Td5 with a powerful full-mechanical engine when, not if, the Td5 failed. I drove a 300Tdi at the time and knew that the Td5 power levels made the truck far more suited to what I had in mind for it.

It didn't last as long as I had expected with the head gasket going, and bending a rod at 230,000km. In hindsight I should have done a pre-emptive strike and changed the head gasket out at the start of ownership.

Given the tasks I have planned for the truck, I cannot abide having anything other than reasonable confidence that a significant failure from an original part wont occur again. With that in mind, besides the mechanicals, all sensors, supporting wiring & joins plus the ECU will need replacing before they reach the point of failure. It's relatively easy to define a service life for the reciprocating parts of an engine........the supporting electronic hardware not so much. What is the service life of the ECU?

Anyway, I've pulled the Td5 and everything that supports it and will have a 4Bd1T in it's place shortly. Only after that will it be approaching the configuration I think it needs it to be in to perform as a forever truck.

If someone gave me a brand new Td5 I wouldn't put it back in my truck, very happy to have the worry of failure lifted from my shoulders.

[roverrescue]

Fubar how are you compliancing a td5 vintage fender with a 4bd1???
I thought there would be a problem there?

S

[one_iota]

Regardless of the motor and given that you have a baby to transport I recommend that you research fitting a compliant child restraint to a Defender. It can be done but you might end up with a Discovery. Search this place for intel. [bighmmm]

[Fubar]

Fubar how are you compliancing a td5 vintage fender with a 4bd1???
I thought there would be a problem there?

S

Both engines are under the same emissions category (Euro 1). KLR are swapping Isuzu's into Puma's though I don't know what State they will be/are registered in.

Mod plate recommended to cover the physical engine swap.

[tact]

Regardless of the motor and given that you have a baby to transport I recommend that you research fitting a compliant child restraint to a Defender. It can be done but you might end up with a Discovery. Search this place for intel. [bighmmm]

When I brought my Malaysian bought 2013 TDCi DCPU from Malaysia into Australia I had to do the compliance plate thing. Professional workshop looked after it all. One of the requirements was to fit child restraint points behind the 3 seating positions of the rear seat. If I remember correctly that cost AU$150 each.

[roverrescue]

Also another benefit of the 130 is the installation of baby bolts is easier/cheaper
Still need compliancing thou

S

[djam1]

I thought 10P TD5s were Euro 2 and 15P and beyond were Euro 3?

[1nando]

Babys and hot cabins aren't a good idea. I wouldn't drag a baby hundreds of kms on a 30 plus day in my defender. Also i spent $1500 getting my 110 compliant for baby seats.
The puma has to be the most "family accommodating" and friendly defender out of the 3. I think its hard for anyone to argue this point!

[rar110]

5 years ago I couldn’t consider driving anything other that a 110 or 130. After the last desert trip in the 110 I was ready to do a u-turn and go do another 5,000km. But the family flatly refused to do another big trip in it. So I started to look for something more comfortable. I drove a late td5 130. While a bit quieter, it was much the same as my Perentie wagon. I drove a 2.4 Puma, and was impressed with the new interior but not enough to pay $40,000. Now they are more expensive but older. I didn’t like the gearbox. Plus I’d read and spoken to a few Puma owners about the cost of upgrades needed and expensive bits failing. The place with the Puma had a D4 3.0 and was encouraged to take a drive just for fun. My 1st impression was wow, I can’t believe one company makes both. I ended up buying the cheapest L322 tdv8 I could find. Its fantastic on and off road. I still have the Perentie, but can’t see me ever doing a big trip in it. My point is, don’t limit yourself to only a defender. Considering your situation, a D4 is probably better bang for buck than a defender especially with recent prices of defenders. It doesn’t have the rugged capability appeal of a Puma or td5. But IMHO is at least as capable stock standard off road, much better on road, better safety, but doesn’t come close to a defender in load carrying capacity.

[Simon]

I can't speak to the tdi or td5 but own a puma

We (wife +3 kids) took it around Aus in 2015, 40,000km towing a camper trailer. A fair chunk was dirt, so corrugations, Cape Yorke, Fraser Island.

Other than diff protection, second battery and a snorkel it was straight from the showroom.

Whilst the aircon is OK it struggles after a couple of hours driving on a hot day, don't expect to stay cool all day.

Other than that nothing failed or fell off. A spot weld on the roof failed but that may just be the way mine was put together. As a touring vehicle it is excellent.

Does that mean it will last forever? I dont know, I hope so.

I will admit at this point that I have no skills as a mechanic so bush serviceability is lost on me. However the engine bay is tight as a Scotsman's wallet, which I expect could make working on it tricky

Simon

[tact]

I can't speak to the tdi or td5 but own a puma

We (wife +3 kids) took it around Aus in 2015, 40,000km towing a camper trailer. A fair chunk was dirt, so corrugations, Cape Yorke, Fraser Island.

Other than diff protection, second battery and a snorkel it was straight from the showroom.

Whilst the aircon is OK it struggles after a couple of hours driving on a hot day, don't expect to stay cool all day.

Other than that nothing failed or fell off. A spot weld on the roof failed but that may just be the way mine was put together. As a touring vehicle it is excellent.

Does that mean it will last forever? I dont know, I hope so.

I will admit at this point that I have no skills as a mechanic so bush serviceability is lost on me. However the engine bay is tight as a Scotsman's wallet, which I expect could make working on it tricky

Simon

if you get the anti-ice sensor on the evaporator sorted that fixes the problem where the aircon performance reduces after an hour or so in Puma.

[saltynomad]

Thanks for all the replies and good discussions.

I should clarify, that we will have another vehicle to use daily. So it's a matter of spending our money wisely on a model defender that will suit us. While money isn't the main issue, it's more deciding what is value for money.

The logic is; Do you spend the money on a newer model, or an older model and fit it out etc.

My TDI has done enough kilometres to take her to the moon and I've had a great run with it.

Will keep everyone updated as the hunt continues. Please feel free to share any good vehicles you come across
in your browsing.

[1nando]

Thanks for all the replies and good discussions.

I should clarify, that we will have another vehicle to use daily. So it's a matter of spending our money wisely on a model defender that will suit us. While money isn't the main issue, it's more deciding what is value for money.

The logic is; Do you spend the money on a newer model, or an older model and fit it out etc.

My TDI has done enough kilometres to take her to the moon and I've had a great run with it.

Will keep everyone updated as the hunt continues. Please feel free to share any good vehicles you come across
in your browsing.The other issue I'm currently going through is that as much as i love my defender i fear that with the arrival of a second child the rear isnt big enough to accommodate a second baby seat. The car is great with one but 2 (one behind each of the front seats) it my be a bit cramped, at least thats what im fearing. Once they are no longer babys and grow into toddlers for example it would be fine but the seats really reduce front leg room. This may end up being a deal breaker for me and my defender. It is unbelievably good offroad, surprisingly comfortable, relatively economical, carries a load easily.....but the lack of back seat space is terrible. Biggest negative of a defender in my opinion. As some have mentioned a d4 maybe the go.

[SSmith]

A good, bus style, air con set a friend back 3k installed to his TDI defender, it came back (from Darwin) with half the outlets duct taped up because it was too cold!

The only thing that makes a puma quieter and cooler is insulation, the cab is still built all but the same as older ones. Ok it has slightly better ac but it is still pretty weak. So add some aftermarket insulation to an older defender and viola. Spend $500 on materials, save 10k on purchase price.

Food for thought.

[PAT303]

My personal opinion is you'd be better off with a D1 Tdi. You can buy one and give it a complete make over and have years of trouble free driving for less than the purchase price of a worn out Defender. I'd stay away from Td5's. Pat

[slug_burner]

I have a 300tdi Defender stationwagon and a D2a Td5. Of the two the Td5 with the auto is by far the better combo. The auto is not an option in the Defender, however I think the Td5 is still the better engine. If I was to look for a Td5 Defender I’d look for one with a Salisbury rear end and i’d get rid of the Rover front diff as soon as you start to get metal in the oil. The Rover diffs with two pinions and the single pin that they turn on will give up anywhere from 100kkm onwards, ask me how I know! Defender was detected early and I got an ARB centre put the in, you also get the locker functionality out of the swap. The D2 had both diffs changed after 200kkm.

All the ****ty rust issues with door frames and broken rear door frames will still be there. Don’t know if they did anything about it in the Puma.

If you don’t mind the turning circle and you are looking for a Bush/touring vehicle as you have another to get around town i’d go the 130. I think it is easier to set up and get access to your gear on the tray. The rear seats in all defenders are not much chop. Not comfy for an adult and if you have teens they too will find the rear less than comfy for anything other than a short ride.

All the best with your search.

[Fyst]

Having started looking for a 130 300tdi and settled on a 130 tdci 5 years later, one of the main deciding factors was the ability to (relatively) easily fit child restraint points. Tdci’s can have points fitted to the seat frames, tidy and unobtrusive. Older models need either off the shelf crab bars (legality of this in NSW is a question I never comprehensively got an answer too) or an engineered solution which tended to be bulky, involve cutting and or drilling of the body and in some cases then need independent certification.

[Colmoore]

A good, bus style, air con set a friend back 3k installed to his TDI defender, it came back (from Darwin) with half the outlets duct taped up because it was too cold!

The only thing that makes a puma quieter and cooler is insulation, the cab is still built all but the same as older ones. Ok it has slightly better ac but it is still pretty weak. So add some aftermarket insulation to an older defender and viola. Spend $500 on materials, save 10k on purchase price.

Food for thought.

I've got a 2.4 puma and I dyna matted the interior and u/s of turret which makes it bearable (not exactly comfortable) on a 40+° day with the ac on flat out.
Interested to look into that anti icing sensor though.
Dyna mat also helps w sound deadening but I think the puma is just a much quieter engine than a 300 or td5.
Mine has the stupid turbo wrecking cat on plus a fairly big muffler mounted in an equally stupid place, just under the rear passenger floor (used to burn the kids feet pre dyna mat and insulation) so I'd think they may quieten things a bit too.

[tact]

[...]
Interested to look into that anti icing sensor though.
[...]

Here is the service bulletin. Apparently some models had the wrong sensor. Some had the right sensor but incorrectly fitted to the evaporator (causing false reading and evap to ice up and cooling efficiency to reduce)

131605

[PAT303]

I've got a 2.4 puma and I dyna matted the interior and u/s of turret which makes it bearable (not exactly comfortable) on a 40+° day with the ac on flat out.
Interested to look into that anti icing sensor though.
Dyna mat also helps w sound deadening but I think the puma is just a much quieter engine than a 300 or td5.
Mine has the stupid turbo wrecking cat on plus a fairly big muffler mounted in an equally stupid place, just under the rear passenger floor (used to burn the kids feet pre dyna mat and insulation) so I'd think they may quieten things a bit too.

Remove them,best mod ever. Pat

[PAT303]

Here is the service bulletin. Apparently some models had the wrong sensor. Some had the right sensor but incorrectly fitted to the evaporator (causing false reading and evap to ice up and cooling efficiency to reduce)

131605

Is there a way to check this?. Pat

[87County]

As far as deciding which engine to choose, it may be worth considering that thinking owners of any of the listed engines (including "Puma" variants) have been installing turbo Isuzu 4BD1s. Being aware of the benefits I think that is the solution I would choose being that is a simple improvement and is cheap and reliable.

So, consider finding a 110 with a doubtful engine and use the $s saved to do a conversion and then install a good suspension.

:)

[Hokoman]

hi all,

I've actually got all three Defenders - a '96 130 tdi in Australia; a 2000 TD5 in South Africa; and a 2009 2.4 Puma in France.
I want to stress I didn't buy 3 Defenders because I think they're so grand, that's just the way it turned out, often simply because they were much cheaper than other makes and suited the purpose at the time. I do like driving them off-road though, compared to other brands. On-road we won't discuss :)))

My personal experience (with Defenders it's ALWAYS personal because they're ALL so very different) is that the 130 Tdi is the best off-road by far and the most enjoyable. And I think the 130 has a charisma that is hard to beat.
The Puma next, although the electronics is really annoying because they self-drive the car up to a point and that can take the fun out of it. It feels like absolutely anyone could climb into a Puma and do a decent job off-road.
The TD5 I'm not enamoured with because it's got less torque, or rather the Turbo lag is reminiscent of a Nissan Patrol 3.0L I had.
Some Landy mechanics swear the TD5 is the best motor; others don't like it much. I'm not really qualified to say. They certainly are the best sounding motor.

On-Road it's the absolute reverse. I don't care what anyone says, the Puma is miles and miles apart from previous Defenders in long distance bitumen touring.
I still wear ear plugs though - on all three !!

In the bush if you have a problem it's the Tdi that will be easy to fix - always worth considering.

[Colmoore]

Remove them,best mod ever. Pat

Ditching the cat was on my to do list however, looks like I've sold her.
I'm still swinging wildly over the 130; from buying an old tdi, 2.8 Inter or td5 with a good body OR buying another puma and going through the drivetrain,wiring etc
Dare i ask you what you've spent on mods Pat? (axles and flanges, lockers, driveline seals etc, any other necessities)
Col

[Zeros]

I have a 98 300tdi and a 2014 Puma.

I'll never part with the tdi, despite and perhaps because it's had a very rough life over 320,000 km (just run in I hear you say), but those kms were predominantly proper 'out bush' in remote northern Australia. ...It still purrs, it feels significantly lighter than the Puma, more fun in many ways, front vents, bullet proof really, still stock other than rear HD drive flanges. ...but it's also pretty rugged (LOUD!) on a long road trip now! No aircon either. Yes I'm going soft!

Cue the Puma...on road I agree, there is no comparison. Puma is quiet! No ear plugs needed here. It's sweet. Aircon works, you can have a convo with others in the vehicle without yelling, not s bad stereo either. ...very disappointing though that the majority of the drive line will need to be replaced with three Ashcroft ATB diffs, new clutch every 100,000, adapter shaft out to be greased. ...Especially because I can't really afford the vehicle in the first place! + all those preventative mods $$ !! Hmm.

But then there's nothing else.

They're still the most practical built for purpose vehicles on the planet. No other real 4x4 comes close for pragmatic, robust, ability and affordability.

I've known toyotas to blow multiple diffs, gearboxes, etc when the going gets tough.

Then there's the Defender four coils, constant 4x4, bigger chassis, lightweight body, visibility, availability of parts, off road ability, ...and not mention the cameraderie!

Grab any Defender you can. That is all.

[PAT303]

The only mods I've done are axle flanges,removing the CAT,center muffler unplugging the EGR and under body sound proofing. I've had two issue's that I've had to pay for which is the clutch,one of the springs came out,and the VCV,other than that it's been brilliant.Both my Tdi and TDCi Defenders have done a lot of outback Oz. Pat

[PAT303]

Ditching the cat was on my to do list however, looks like I've sold her.
I'm still swinging wildly over the 130; from buying an old tdi, 2.8 Inter or td5 with a good body OR buying another puma and going through the drivetrain,wiring etc
Dare i ask you what you've spent on mods Pat? (axles and flanges, lockers, driveline seals etc, any other necessities)
Col

I would buy a stock Defender,no 2.8,no Td5,a stock Tdi or stock TDCi. Pat

[Colmoore]

Well I'm looking for a shoulder to cry on - I'm defenderless as of this morning. A bloke called Michael (I think he's on here somewhere) came down from Brisy & bought my truck. She was sweet.
Now I'm still in limbo as to what to buy next.
I've taken your advice Pat and ruled out the Inter motor due to parts becoming scarce.
After driving the 300 tdi its a long descent from the grunt & top end of the BAS puma; even if it will keep on trucking for five hundred thousand kms under water post apocalypse.....
The thought of driving to Broome again next year at 100kms an hr makes me shudder a bit.
The td5 seems to be a pretty good compromise and they're pretty cheap as there's so many of them.
I'm mostly driving about in the following order: picking up building materials, dragging a trailer to the tip, occasionally towing a bobcat or excavator, playing bus driver to my kids and last but not least, going camping.
What would you guys pay for a very straight mostly original td5 with > 200k kms on?

[Colmoore]

I have a 98 300tdi and a 2014 Puma.

I'll never part with the tdi, despite and perhaps because it's had a very rough life over 320,000 km (just run in I hear you say), but those kms were predominantly proper 'out bush' in remote northern Australia. ...It still purrs, it feels significantly lighter than the Puma, more fun in many ways, front vents, bullet proof really, still stock other than rear HD drive flanges. ...but it's also pretty rugged (LOUD!) on a long road trip now! No aircon either. Yes I'm going soft!

Cue the Puma...on road I agree, there is no comparison. Puma is quiet! No ear plugs needed here. It's sweet. Aircon works, you can have a convo with others in the vehicle without yelling, not s bad stereo either. ...very disappointing though that the majority of the drive line will need to be replaced with three Ashcroft ATB diffs, new clutch every 100,000, adapter shaft out to be greased. ...Especially because I can't really afford the vehicle in the first place! + all those preventative mods $$ !! Hmm.

But then there's nothing else.

They're still the most practical built for purpose vehicles on the planet. No other real 4x4 comes close for pragmatic, robust, ability and affordability.

I've known toyotas to blow multiple diffs, gearboxes, etc when the going gets tough.

Then there's the Defender four coils, constant 4x4, bigger chassis, lightweight body, visibility, availability of parts, off road ability, ...and not mention the cameraderie!

Grab any Defender you can. That is all.

Man you sound as though you have a sweet life - if you need someone to ride shotgun; I'm in!
The Puma was definitely hard to let go, but I really feel they might end up costing more than I want to spend to keep on the road if used as intended. It is a hard decision and there's always a compromise!
How do you find the adjustment between tdi & tdci?
Have you propped your Puma in deep water (over the bonnet)?
What does it cost to go right through a puma driveline with Ashcroft or Maxidrive gear?

[PAT303]

Col,the reason I rule out the Td5 is cost,don't get me wrong,it's a good engine,but the Tdi can be given a few cheap mods such as tweaking the pump,bigger I/C,straight through exhaust etc and it'll give all the performance but cheaper.It's easy to get a Tdi to go and they'll keep a Td5 honest with minor mods,I had both at one time and I couldn't see the reason to upgrade and I'm glad I didn't,my Tdi is about to clock 517K,a Td5 would've died by now. Pat

[PAT303]

What does it cost to go right through a puma driveline with Ashcroft or Maxidrive gear?[/QUOTE]

You don't need to do all that unless your a meat head driver or think climbing rocks is fun. Pat

[Zeros]

Man you sound as though you have a sweet life - if you need someone to ride shotgun; I'm in!
The Puma was definitely hard to let go, but I really feel they might end up costing more than I want to spend to keep on the road if used as intended. It is a hard decision and there's always a compromise!
How do you find the adjustment between tdi & tdci?
Have you propped your Puma in deep water (over the bonnet)?
What does it cost to go right through a puma driveline with Ashcroft or Maxidrive gear?

Hard earned and in debt.

Tdi to Puma? I do it all the time. Tdi is my knockabout daily drive. It's light, it's economical and it's fun. Keeps the kms off the Puma. It owes me nothing and I love it. ...except on long trips! It's had a very hard life so it's loud and rattly!

The Puma is quiet and smooth and if I was driving to Broome it would be my choice.
But I'm an oldish bastard now. Gone soft. ...I might sell it if I can't afford it. Then I'll Always have the trusty Tdi, which has done countless trips to Broome in its time!

Tdi water over bonnet a few times. Tdci no. Usually it's entirely uneccessary.

Ashcroft gear? Dunno. Look online. The only one I might do is centre diff ATB (approx $1400 installed I think I was quoted). But don't have the cash.

Good luck in your search

[Colmoore]

I drove 42000kms around Australia last year in my puma and it was good being able to do the speed limit, even with the camper on.
I thought you wouldn't get a tdi to go anywhere near a chipped td5 - speed and power wise?

[Robmacca]

the Tdi can be given a few cheap mods such as tweaking the pump,bigger I/C,straight through exhaust etc and it'll give all the performance but cheaper.It's easy to get a Tdi to go and they'll keep a Td5 honest with minor mods,

Pat, I know u can an upgraded IC that will slot straight into the original slot but if u have a Tdi that doesn't have A/C, couldn't u get a larger IC that goes right across the radiator? This would increase the surface area by two fold and thus better performance again over the straight Upgraded IC?

Just curious here but the choices would be greater and I assume maybe cheaper to buy?

rob

[PAT303]

I drove 42000kms around Australia last year in my puma and it was good being able to do the speed limit, even with the camper on.
I thought you wouldn't get a tdi to go anywhere near a chipped td5 - speed and power wise?

They both suffer the same problem,poor off boost performance.The Td5 I had was chipped,it went like the clappers over 2000 rpm but then so does my Tdi.It's not hard to get either sitting on 100+ with some mods,you must not forget that both were set up to meet pollution standards,not performance.If you want to go back to the lesser models,and I'm not being derogatory here,if my Tdi had naughty woman bits I would have married it instead of my wife,they both really need a new turbo,preferably a VNT with matching full width,as per Robmacca's post I/C and tune.I'm selling my X-Tech TDCi next year and buying a Discovery Sport,the Tdi will get a complete make over after that. Pat

[saltynomad]

Lots of good info on this thread and thanks for everyones participation.

We're now welcoming a 2.2 TDCI Puma to the family, soon to arrive next week. [biggrin]

Next up on the list is to get certified child restraints mounted onto the rear seats.
If anyone has any suggestions for locations around South East QLD please let me know.

We've decided to keep our old faithful 300TDI in the family, she'll be the work vehicle
and I can already see that the Puma will become the wife's car!!

Also looking for recommendations for a good Defender mechanic in South East QLD.

Happy driving!

[rar110]

Mechanic recommendation depends on where in SEQ your located.

[1nando]

How much does it cost to upgrade the drivetrain?

Allow $15k;

Ashcroft Front and rear axles and flanges
E Lockers front and rear
Centre diff atb
Custom clutch - exedy
Pegging kit for rear diff
Ashcroft cvs
Mt82 output shaft
Timken bearings all round

My vehicle purchase price plus these mods puts me pretty much on par with the cost of a brand new 70 series. Is the 70 series as tough or capable? NO! If i bought another vehicle and built it to be just as tough it would cost me a lot more.



Now im sure people will say it isn't necessary, and it isnt but it all depends on how hard you push or want to push your vehicle. Its a insurance policy in the back of my mind....

[Vern]

Well I'm looking for a shoulder to cry on - I'm defenderless as of this morning. A bloke called Michael (I think he's on here somewhere) came down from Brisy & bought my truck. She was sweet.
Now I'm still in limbo as to what to buy next.
I've taken your advice Pat and ruled out the Inter motor due to parts becoming scarce.
After driving the 300 tdi its a long descent from the grunt & top end of the BAS puma; even if it will keep on trucking for five hundred thousand kms under water post apocalypse.....
The thought of driving to Broome again next year at 100kms an hr makes me shudder a bit.
The td5 seems to be a pretty good compromise and they're pretty cheap as there's so many of them.
I'm mostly driving about in the following order: picking up building materials, dragging a trailer to the tip, occasionally towing a bobcat or excavator, playing bus driver to my kids and last but not least, going camping.
What would you guys pay for a very straight mostly original td5 with > 200k kms on?Wasn't michael mclauglin?

[Colmoore]

Wasn't michael mclauglin?

Michael Nester from brisvegas somewhere - I think he's new to the LR crew but apparently already loving it.

[rar110]

How much does it cost to upgrade the drivetrain?

Allow $15k;

Ashcroft Front and rear axles and flanges
E Lockers front and rear
Centre diff atb
Custom clutch - exedy
Pegging kit for rear diff
Ashcroft cvs
Mt82 output shaft
Timken bearings all round

Now im sure people will say it isn't necessary, and it isnt but it all depends on how hard you push or want to push your vehicle. Its a insurance policy in the back of my mind....

Looks like a sensible Puma list.

[PAT303]

How much does it cost to upgrade the drivetrain?

Allow $15k;

Ashcroft Front and rear axles and flanges
E Lockers front and rear
Centre diff atb
Custom clutch - exedy
Pegging kit for rear diff
Ashcroft cvs
Mt82 output shaft
Timken bearings all round

My vehicle purchase price plus these mods puts me pretty much on par with the cost of a brand new 70 series. Is the 70 series as tough or capable? NO! If i bought another vehicle and built it to be just as tough it would cost me a lot more.



Now im sure people will say it isn't necessary, and it isnt but it all depends on how hard you push or want to push your vehicle. Its a insurance policy in the back of my mind....

You just explained why the Defender is such a good platform,start standard and mod as required. Pat

[1nando]

You just explained why the Defender is such a good platform,start standard and mod as required. PatIm still at an age (34) where i go out with my mates camping and enjoy doing rough tracks and taking the **** out of each others vehicle. Now being the only land rover in the group puts me in the firing line prettt much all the time.
Thats where a defender is so versatile. I've built it not only to be tough but be able to confidently tackle any obstacle. It always impresses everyone how capable it is. My mates call it the "tractor", it just chugs along slowly but surely.
Once upon a time it was standard and it was capable, now its more capable but able to take more punishment.
The puma is a great platform. Best aircon out of any defender, best engine, best ride, best noise reduction, most technology (be it very little and outdated) and best gearbox in my opinion.

[simmo]

Col,the reason I rule out the Td5 is cost,don't get me wrong,it's a good engine,but the Tdi can be given a few cheap mods such as tweaking the pump,bigger I/C,straight through exhaust etc and it'll give all the performance but cheaper.It's easy to get a Tdi to go and they'll keep a Td5 honest with minor mods,I had both at one time and I couldn't see the reason to upgrade and I'm glad I didn't,my Tdi is about to clock 517K,a Td5 would've died by now. PatThe later Td-5s , pumas etc are more comfortable and quieter I think, maybe faster on the highway.



I'm with Pat on this, i've had my defender for 15 years, and never spent much money on it except what i wanted to spend.

But the money adds up over a long time I guess.

Drive line & suspension,

Ashcroft ATB center diff, discovery 2 LT230 Q transfer case, (about $1200 fitted, by me), huge reduction in noise ! & better fuel economy.

Eaton ATB in the front, Maybe $900, ( mostly fitted by me)

Maxidrive lockers in the rear. About $1600 mostly fitted by me
40 mm OME lift at the front , full airbags on the back, in cabin controls, ($1500 fitted by me)

winch& winch bar ($1000 fab & fitted by me)
swingout wheel carrier, ($100, Fab & fit by me)
42 liter aux silltank, ($200 , fab & fit by me)


Engine; APT intercooler, Garrett 2256 VNT, fuel pump tweaked up, (about $2500 done by me, kit was Madman SA) transformed the car and made it much more drive-able and allows you to use the disco transfer case comfortably, 1st gear is a bit tall, but i hardly ever tow anything thats heavy , so its not really a problem for me.

center muffler removed, ( not much cost, no discernable benefit except weight reduction)

I've probably spent 9-10 K on the car over the 16 years of ownership, but saved quite a bit on the labor since I fitted most of the mods myself.

Agreed the AC is crap, but I've done some insulation on the floors , and will soon get the AC tuned up. ( a lot cheaper than a new car :) )

If the car had better AC and was a bit quieter, I would have no complaints at all. ( the rear passengers might have a few words to say about that :)

Servicing is straight forward.
cheers simmo

[djam1]

Pat sorry I don't agree with you on this one I have a 300 tdi and a td5 here the 300 tdi has been tuned to its max and its not within a bulls roar of the TD5.
The TD5 is an exceptional engine if maintained properly and you don't wait for things to go wrong before sorting known weaknesses.
Not sure why you think the TD5 cant do over 500000 km there are plenty of examples of this
They do have their issues but once sorted they are fine
The TD5 I have here has a VNT all the fruit and some very nice tuning done by Jose and it feels like it has twice the power of the 300tdi.

In respect to the original post intent
I like a well sorted TD5 the 300 tdi I am not overly impressed with but they are honest the Puma I wont say much I haven't owned one but I don't like what I see
The one thing the Puma does have in its favor is a lower first gear but the poor build/ component quality and short term engine rules it out.
Not that long ago I looked at changing to a Puma but was given good advice by people in the know not to go there.
Everyone goes on as to how the 300tdi and TD5 AC is crap I lived in the Pilbara for 8 years and found the air-conditioning to be acceptable but I never sat in the back seats.

Runs for cover

[Zeros]

Pat sorry I don't agree with you on this one I have a 300 tdi and a td5 here the 300 tdi has been tuned to its max and its not within a bulls roar of the TD5.
The TD5 is an exceptional engine if maintained properly and you don't wait for things to go wrong before sorting known weaknesses.
Not sure why you think the TD5 cant do over 500000 km there are plenty of examples of this
They do have their issues but once sorted they are fine
The TD5 I have here has a VNT all the fruit and some very nice tuning done by Jose and it feels like it has twice the power of the 300tdi.

In respect to the original post intent
I like a well sorted TD5 the 300 tdi I am not overly impressed with but they are honest the Puma I wont say much I haven't owned one but I don't like what I see
The one thing the Puma does have in its favor is a lower first gear but the poor build/ component quality and short term engine rules it out.
Not that long ago I looked at changing to a Puma but was given good advice by people in the know not to go there.
Everyone goes on as to how the 300tdi and TD5 AC is crap I lived in the Pilbara for 8 years and found the air-conditioning to be acceptable but I never sat in the back seats.

Runs for cover

No need to run for over...just tell us more about why Pumas are no good in your opinion...? What does short term engine mean?

[1nando]

"The one thing the Puma does have in its favor is a lower first gear but the poor build/ component quality and short term engine rules it out."

A opinion derived from third party sources through the grape vine. A bit like my opinion of every td5 blowing and warping the head or how unreliable the r380 box is......or......ill just leave it there.

See my point?

[djam1]

No need to run for over...just tell us more about why Pumas are no good in your opinion...? What does short term engine mean?

As stated I don't own a Puma and wish no malice toward those that do sometimes the Puma crowd do go a bit overboard on how wonderful they are.
I am sure I don't need to explain the build quality issues regarding the Puma with its cheaply manufactured components that seem to abound.
My comment about the short term engine refer to what I see on Transit and other forums around the world that speak of the issues the engines have.
Is it any different than a TD5? maybe not once they are sorted they are probably fine.

Before anyone comes on and tells me how someone in a Transit has done a million km with a Puma engine and how wonderful it has been
The old Ford Falcon taxis use to do eight hundred thousand km but how many privately owned Falcons did that??
Not many because the taxis are always hot as is a delivery vehicle once it comes to private vehicle ownership these massive mileages without issues are rare.
The Pumas that i read of in the UK seem to be finished by the 500000 km mark (as are the unsorted TD5s I am sure)

I spend a bit of time in the TRS wrecking yard and the differences between the models really is not that marked once you get underneath the plastic bits. (the build quality certainly hasn't improved for the better)

My original post was attempting to have a little jab at Pat as I think the thread is getting a little unbalanced for anyone who was looking at buying a Defender and they knew nothing.

I intend to keep my Land Rovers for about 30 years my last one was 31 when I got rid of it something that concerns me is the wiring looms in both the TD5 and the Puma what will they be like in 25 years time i know my stage 1 was getting pretty hard and inflexible in the wiring loom this isnt a great concern with the blinkers and brake lights but will be with ABS and ECUs etc.

Sorry Pat have been holding my tongue for a few weeks lol

Lets face it guys we have all been engineering the crap out of our Land Rovers for years once this is done they are fine probably doesn't matter which model.

[djam1]

Said by the man who above says allow $15k to get rid of the "component quality" issues.


"The one thing the Puma does have in its favor is a lower first gear but the poor build/ component quality and short term engine rules it out."

A opinion derived from third party sources through the grape vine. A bit like my opinion of every td5 blowing and warping the head or how unreliable the r380 box is......or......ill just leave it there.

See my point?

[1nando]

As stated I don't own a Puma and wish no malice toward those that do sometimes the Puma crowd do go a bit overboard on how wonderful they are.
I am sure I don't need to explain the build quality issues regarding the Puma with its cheaply manufactured components that seem to abound.
My comment about the short term engine refer to what I see on Transit and other forums around the world that speak of the issues the engines have.
Is it any different than a TD5? maybe not once they are sorted they are probably fine.

Before anyone comes on and tells me how someone in a Transit has done a million km with a Puma engine and how wonderful it has been
The old Ford Falcon taxis use to do eight hundred thousand km but how many privately owned Falcons did that??
Not many because the taxis are always hot as is a delivery vehicle once it comes to private vehicle ownership these massive mileages without issues are rare.
The Pumas that i read of in the UK seem to be finished by the 500000 km mark (as is the unsorted TD5s I am sure)

I spend a bit of time in the TRS wrecking yard and the differences between the models really is not that marked once you get underneath the plastic bits. (the build quality certainly hasn't improved for the better)

My original post was attempting to have a little jab at Pat as I think the thread is getting a little unbalanced for anyone who was looking at buying a Defender and they knew nothing.

I intend to keep my Land Rovers for about 30 years my last one was 31 when I got rid of it something that concerns me is the wiring looms in both the TD5 and the Puma what will they be like in 25 years time i know my stage 1 was getting pretty hard and inflexible in the wiring loom this isnt a great concern with the blinkers and brake lights but will be with ABS and ECUs etc.

Sorry Pat have been holding my tongue for a few weeks lolYour comparing a td5 engine that was only used in small numbers in one vehicle to a engine that is in a few different vehicles with more than likely 500000 plus units world wide. You read 1, 2 maybe 3 reports of an engine failure and thats enough to rubbish an engine. Really?
If i were to make an educated guess it would be that statistically the failure rate would be higher on td5s than the puma. If the failure rate was what your claiming ford would have changed the engine a long time ago. Yet its been used for years and for many different applications.

The early pumas had issues, agreed. Post 2012 2.2 pumas are the most reliable of the lot. The mt82 output shaft, clutch and flanges are the most common issues it seems. All easy fixes.

[1nando]

Said by the man who above says allow $15k to get rid of the "component quality" issues.Wow....i built it for a purpose. Maybe your idea off road is different to mine. Id bet that your standard defender would not go 50% of the places mine does and be able to drive home. To be honest it became a domino effect; front locker....may as well do cvs and axles. Rear locker; may as well to axles and pegg it. Mt82 ouput shaft; may as well to an ashcroft atb.

[Zeros]

Some Puma driveline components are clearly weaker and may need to be replaced, by all accounts: transfer case centre, clutch and greasing of output shaft, which is disappointing.

However many aspects of Pumas are better including NVH levels, ABS, Traction Control, door seals, aircon, seats.

I've not read of any real issues on this site re Puma engine or electrics / ECU. (All manufacturers have a percentage of faults in all components). But are there any endemic engine or electrical faults with Pumas?

[manic]

.... I have a 300 tdi and a td5 here the 300 tdi has been tuned to its max and its not within a bulls roar of the TD5. ....


No doubt, a TD5 can be turned up way beyond the TDI.

What have you done to tune your 300tdi to the max?

[PAT303]

As stated I don't own a Puma and wish no malice toward those that do sometimes the Puma crowd do go a bit overboard on how wonderful they are.
I am sure I don't need to explain the build quality issues regarding the Puma with its cheaply manufactured components that seem to abound.
My comment about the short term engine refer to what I see on Transit and other forums around the world that speak of the issues the engines have.
Is it any different than a TD5? maybe not once they are sorted they are probably fine.

Before anyone comes on and tells me how someone in a Transit has done a million km with a Puma engine and how wonderful it has been
The old Ford Falcon taxis use to do eight hundred thousand km but how many privately owned Falcons did that??
Not many because the taxis are always hot as is a delivery vehicle once it comes to private vehicle ownership these massive mileages without issues are rare.
The Pumas that i read of in the UK seem to be finished by the 500000 km mark (as are the unsorted TD5s I am sure)

I spend a bit of time in the TRS wrecking yard and the differences between the models really is not that marked once you get underneath the plastic bits. (the build quality certainly hasn't improved for the better)

My original post was attempting to have a little jab at Pat as I think the thread is getting a little unbalanced for anyone who was looking at buying a Defender and they knew nothing.

I intend to keep my Land Rovers for about 30 years my last one was 31 when I got rid of it something that concerns me is the wiring looms in both the TD5 and the Puma what will they be like in 25 years time i know my stage 1 was getting pretty hard and inflexible in the wiring loom this isnt a great concern with the blinkers and brake lights but will be with ABS and ECUs etc.

Sorry Pat have been holding my tongue for a few weeks lol

Lets face it guys we have all been engineering the crap out of our Land Rovers for years once this is done they are fine probably doesn't matter which model.
Taking the ****,good on ya [bigsmile]. You talk about remaps and VNT's on the Td5,that does take the Td5 past the Tdi but once we start the mods all bets are off.Having had all three you very wrong on the TDCi,it's an all over better vehicle than the other two,the build quality of mine is no better or worse than any other model and once you fix the bigger problems real world ownership has presented,the adapter and clutch,they are the best of the breed. Pat

[PAT303]

Some Puma driveline components are clearly weaker and may need to be replaced, by all accounts: transfer case centre, clutch and greasing of output shaft, which is disappointing.

However many aspects of Pumas are better including NVH levels, ABS, Traction Control, door seals, aircon, seats.

I've not read of any real issues on this site re Puma engine or electrics / ECU. (All manufacturers have a percentage of faults in all components). But are there any endemic engine or electrical faults with Pumas?

EGR and VCV are the only real ones. Pat

[Colmoore]

PHEEEEWWWW I go away for a few days and the info (& p&p) just floods in!!

Firstly, I really do appreciate everyone's input.
I have now driven a couple of tdi's and for me they just don't have the go on the hills & 110km hr seems to be about it. I really don't know how people can say a tdi will keep up with even a stock td5?
I liked my 2.4 puma to drive, it was very streetable, went like a cut cat after BAS remap and after dynamat I could hear the stereo on a dirt road. However, the turbo chucked it in at 90k, the wiring loom for the turbo is stretched across the compressor and tight even when she's not flexing) The wiring loom is an issue too - cheap ford stuf - not worlds best 4x4 stuff. But then Lucas electrics....... [emoji51]
I don't believe the drivetrain is adequate (without xy upgrades) and I also believe it's going to cost a fair bit to keep one on the road now production has ceased & parts are already getting dearer.
I have decided to compromise and buy a td5 I think. There are plenty of motors around to rebuild, or you can get one reco'd for $3500.
I also have found a great mechanic, one of Bruce Davis ex crew, who really likes the td5.
I'm yet to buy one, been so busy, but must get one soon as our Tassie trip in January looms.
Thanks again to all, it's a great read and a great community.
I'll post something when I get it
Col

[Tins]

I've never owned a Defender, but I do have 2 Discos, a 300TDi and a TD5. Very different, both great.

Anyway, reading this thread makes me wonder; just how hard could it be to retrofit A/C to an older Deefer? Both the TD1 and TD5 Discos came with air, so there's your compressor, mount, belt and pulley issues sorted. There must be room for a condenser in there somewhere ( nothing says that it has to be in front of the rad.... ), and maybe grab an evaporator and fan assy out some Jap wreck, a bit of piping, wiring and vent ducting and there you have it. No?

[manic]

.. TDCi,it's an all over better vehicle than the other two,the build quality of mine is no better or worse than any other model and once you fix the bigger problems real world ownership has presented,the adapter and clutch,they are the best of the breed. Pat

Sorry, but it cant be best of breed if it is a mongrel with a Ford Engine! [emoji14] As for differences in build quality check out the threads on rust, some evidence there of cost cutting on materials.

Its hard to forgive land rover for somehow managing to build a newer defender with a weaker driveline. But worse than that they filled in the holes where there should be trademark bulkhead vents... hideously mutilated! [emoji3]

Each to their own but for me the Puma does not represent the best years of defender.

That said there is a good chance you will feel better off sitting behind a modern looking plastic dash, with better seats, cooled by frosty AC, listening to less engine noise and shifting through a gearbox that doesnt make you feel like you are driving a truck. That alone could be enough to make it your choice for best Defender of all time. And fair enough.

[djam1]

No doubt, a TD5 can be turned up way beyond the TDI.

What have you done to tune your 300tdi to the max?

When I say max I mean we seem to have come to the edge of the ability of the engine cooling system but this is a work in progress and it’s nothing near the TD5

Normal mods pump tweak intercooler etc

[Colmoore]

Sorry, but it cant be best of breed if it is a mongrel with a Ford Engine! [emoji14] As for differences in build quality check out the threads on rust, some evidence there of cost cutting on materials.

Its hard to forgive land rover for somehow managing to build a newer defender with a weaker driveline. But worse than that they filled in the holes where there should be trademark bulkhead vents... hideously mutilated! [emoji3]

Each to their own but for me the Puma does not represent the best years of defender.

That said there is a good chance you will feel better off sitting behind a modern looking plastic dash, with better seats, cooled by frosty AC, listening to less engine noise and shifting through a gearbox that doesnt make you feel like you are driving a truck. That alone could be enough to make it your choice for best Defender of all time. And fair enough.

The thing I'm looking forward to the most is those bulkhead vents

[manic]

When I say max I mean we seem to have come to the edge of the ability of the engine cooling system but this is a work in progress and it’s nothing near the TD5

Normal mods pump tweak intercooler etcSlow agony on a TDI is pre boost, the lag is huge. You have a VNT on the TD5, tell me you have one on the TDI?

Ive just received a VNT turbo for the TDI from allisport/turbotechnics [emoji41][emoji41][emoji41]. Should go well in the 90!

[Stinkler]

Informative thread indeed as I'm in the market for a 130 and looking at TD5 or Puma.

Bloody epic learning curve and big decisions to make! Seems at Td5 is 20-40 grand with 180-300km on clock and a Puma is 40-75 grand with 60-150km on clock.

That adage I read "nothing more expensive than a cheap defender" keeps ringing in my head!

Ha, good reading anyhow, lots of knowledge here!

Cheers