Climbing Uluru to be banned from 2019

[Eevo]

A permanent ban on climbing Uluru will come into effect within two years.
The decision was made unanimously today by the Uluru-Kata Tjuta National Park board of management, who have set a closure date of 26 October 2019.
The date marks the 34th anniversary of Uluru being handed back to Anangu, the traditional owners of the sacred site.


The closure was flagged in the 2010-2020 management plan and required one of three preconditions to be met, including the proportion of visitors climbing falling below 20 percent.
More than 30 people have died attempting the Uluru climb and it is often closed during periods of high temperatures and weather or for cultural reasons.
A sign at the base of Uluru urges visitors to reconsider climbing the sacred site, explaining it is not permitted under traditional law.

[weeds]

That’s a shame.......although i did get to climb it in the late 90’s

[cripesamighty]

It was distinctly frowned upon when I went back earlier this year. It's been a long time coming.

[bob10]

I agree entirely, it is not a theme park.

Uluru climbs to be banned after unanimous vote (http://thenewdaily.com.au/life/travel/2017/11/01/uluru-climbs-banned/?utm_source=Responsys&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20171101_PM_Update)

[Chops]

I'd best be getting the Mrs and I up there pronto then [bighmmm]

[PAT303]

I think it's rubbish.I have climbed it once and was not allowed every other time,it's there for all Australians. Pat

[Eevo]

i'm disappointment with the decision.
ive been to uluru once in 2012 and climbed it. I thought it was the highlight of the place. Olgas pretty good too.
only reason i would go back is to climb it again.

[Ean Austral]

I wonder how long this thread will last . I think a couple of people left the forum last time this was discussed.

cheers Ean

[Eevo]

. I think a couple of people left the forum last time this was discussed.

to go climb it?

[bee utey]

It doesn't bother me much, I did it back in 1985 and still remember the blisters I got. The funny thing was that there was a visitor's book at the top, so I wrote in it. Then I looked back to the beginning and realised it was nearly full from about two days. Showed me how trivial the achievement was. Nice view though. I wonder if the problem is that climbing takes revenue away from the helicopter tours?

Too old to care about going again now.

[Ean Austral]

to go climb it?

i think to put the "do not climb " signs up would be more like it .

cheers Ean

[Bytemrk]

As Ean said... from memory it got a little heated last time...... this is one of those topics that many people have pretty passionate opinions on....

Let's see if we keep it respectful of others opinions this time > I'd rather be reading and contributing than wearing my mod hat. [wink11]

[DeanoH]

Ayers Rock belongs to ALL Australians not just one politically and racially motivated interest group. When 1% of these people actually get a job and contribute to this nation I will take an interest in what they think/want.

Let the cards fall where they may.

Deano :(

[Classic88]

Well it'd be pretty disrespectful to go climbing up the outside of a church and you'd get nicked for that.

It also seems pretty pointless. Surely the most dramatic/best thing to look at round there is Uluru itself and you can't see it if you're standing on it.

[chuck]

You can actually climb many churches including the Vatican.

They claim only 16% of visitors were climbing Ayres Rock.

Out of the 84% how many were elderly, not fit enough etc.

Not saying I would climb it, just seems that minority groups seem to have a disproportional say in everything these days.

[Classic88]

Well you climb them with the permission of the groups who hold it sacred. I wouldn't fuss if the Pope decided that climbing the Vatican should stop.

[justinc]

Omg haven't we been here before???😕😕

Give it a break!!!

Jc

[fitzy]

Popcorn $1 .

[rangieman]

Popcorn $1 .
Im up for some [bigwhistle]

[JoeFriend]

Yes we have, and it's the same people that said it's there for all Australians, the difference from where I sit is the one person who insinuated that the entire Aboriginal population should get a job and contribute. Which we also covered. And that comment is racist.

It's an old argument, the decision has been done - I argued to keep the last thread open despite being offended because it was a debate and it was in the context of whether they would be closing it.

You can't climb it soon, it's closed as should this thread. Pointless ****.

[trog]

With a bit of salt and butter ?

[rangieman]

With a bit of salt and butter ?
Al Natural[tonguewink]

[Eevo]

Well it'd be pretty disrespectful to go climbing up the outside of a church and you'd get nicked for that.

It also seems pretty pointless. Surely the most dramatic/best thing to look at round there is Uluru itself and you can't see it if you're standing on it.

a church is a man made object.

[fitzy]

How about banning cycling, that would keep the d4 drivers safe[emoji476]

[Eevo]

They claim only 16% of visitors were climbing Ayres Rock.

Out of the 84% how many were elderly, not fit enough etc.

they close it when its too sunny, too cloudy etc. so its been deliberately closed ~75% of the time over the last 5 years. so the question should be, how many wanted to climb it and were unable to.

[Eevo]

Popcorn $1 .

cheaper than the supermarket!

[trout1105]

They are quite happy to sting tourist $43 a night for an unpowered site though.

[fitzy]

I’ll have so many customers, I don’t need a huge mark up.

[Bytemrk]

They are quite happy to sting tourist $43 a night for an unpowered site though.

National parks charging crazy money for unpowered sites is not unique to Uluru...

Take a look at what an unpowered site will cost you at tidal river on Wilson's Promontory (https://www.parkstay.vic.gov.au/wilsons-promontory-national-park)


To save you clicking... it's $57.20.. on a weekday.... higher on weekends. [wink11]

[p38arover]

so the question should be, how many wanted to climb it and were unable to.

I'm one. When I went there a couple of years back. It was too windy.

[Vern]

National parks charging crazy money for unpowered sites is not unique to Uluru...

Take a look at what an unpowered site will cost you at tidal river on Wilson's Promontory (https://www.parkstay.vic.gov.au/wilsons-promontory-national-park)


To save you clicking... it's $57.20.. on a weekday.... higher on weekends. [wink11]Yep, and they are full. They also need to make money to fund the parks.
Had friends complain about that at Kakadu, so i did some research, and found that their camping fees only cover 7% of the cost to run the park.

[trout1105]

National parks charging crazy money for unpowered sites is not unique to Uluru...

Take a look at what an unpowered site will cost you at tidal river on Wilson's Promontory (https://www.parkstay.vic.gov.au/wilsons-promontory-national-park)


To save you clicking... it's $57.20.. on a weekday.... higher on weekends. [wink11]

That's daylight robbery.

[Ean Austral]

They are quite happy to sting tourist $43 a night for an unpowered site though.

Geez , I paid that much on the great ocean road over Christmas holidays and that was several years ago, and a few places on the east coast like Byron bay weren't any cheaper.

Got 2 years warning, so no excuse if climbing Uluru is what you want / need to do.

Cheers Ean

[pop058]

Mod hat on.

Just another reminder to keep it clean and play fair. It is a very emotive subject that has been done a few times already. If you cannot post within the rules and guidelines, then simple, DON'T.

Have a nice day [bigsmile1]

[Bytemrk]

That's daylight robbery.

Feels like it I agree.... but it's how life is all over the country...

[bob10]

Instead of going down the road of should we shouldn't we, I would like to ask those who climbed why they did. If the answer is because it was there, well go climb the Harbour bridge. The view's better. If it was to learn more about the Aboriginal culture, then I may have a solution. In the time of drones, film the rock from all angles, with those sites able to be shown to non initiated people, made into a movie, and shown at the tourist resort before viewing the rock, from ground level. With a commentary from a trained aboriginal commentator, explaining the significance of the various sites, the stories[ as much as could be told] , could be used to educate the non initiated up to the point the law allowed. If the public showed an interest in the culture, law and dreaming of the site, it may show they respect it, and the culture. After all, that is what this is all about, respect. Who knows, with mutual respect, the climb may be opened again.

[rick130]

a church is a man made object.

And both have deep spiritual significance to someone.

Your point is?

[justinc]

This thread is STILL open??? 😐

Obviously need to attract the flies...😒😒

Jc

[Eevo]

I'm one. When I went there a couple of years back. It was too windy.

wet i can understand. windy... its better be bloody windy.

[Eevo]

And both have deep spiritual significance to someone.

Your point is?

a rock doesnt belong to anyone.

[landy]

Yep, and they are full. They also need to make money to fund the parks.
Had friends complain about that at Kakadu, so i did some research, and found that their camping fees only cover 7% of the cost to run the park.

ive always wanted to do Kakadu. My mate said it should be called Kakadont, just because it's a rip off. Always liked Wilsons Prom. I'd still go back there. Very fond memories with the kids.

I would like to climb Ayers Rock though.

[trout1105]

a rock doesnt belong to anyone.

This particular one does and has been for thousands of years.
I have No problem with the traditional owners making this decision it is after all a very significant site for these people and to us white folk it is merely an interesting rock formation and a curiosity.

[incisor]

a rock doesnt belong to anyone.

really

the law of the land says differently

maybe you need to expend energy in a politians direction instead of telling us your opinion is above the law..

[biggrin]

[Eevo]

This particular one does and has been for thousands of years.
I have No problem with the traditional owners making this decision it is after all a very significant site for these people and to us white folk it is merely an interesting rock formation and a curiosity.
and what about the millions of years before that?
do the romans own the colosseum? they are the rightful owner (they built it afterall) but times change.

[carjunkieanon]

Well it'd be pretty disrespectful to go climbing up the outside of a church and you'd get nicked for that.

It also seems pretty pointless. Surely the most dramatic/best thing to look at round there is Uluru itself and you can't see it if you're standing on it.

Church I go to has a massive front wall and tower that would be PERFECT for a rock climbing wall (except for the stairs at the base). You've given me an idea...

[Eevo]

really

the law of the land says differently

maybe you need to expend energy in a politians direction instead of telling us your opinion is above the law..

[biggrin]
who owns the cradle mountains?

speaking of law, how will it be enforced?
do you get a fine if you climb it?
if so, then the fine is simply an entry fee.

[Bytemrk]

but times change.


.. they certainly do.... October 2019 I believe... [wink11]

[incisor]

who owns the cradle mountains?

speaking of law, how will it be enforced?
do you get a fine if you climb it?
if so, then the fine is simply an entry fee.

ask your local member [biggrin]

[bee utey]

That's daylight robbery.

Except they do it at night time. [bigwhistle]

[Classic88]

The government owns the Cradle Mountains, it's a national park.

[gusthedog]

Interesting the ownership thing - if you want to get technical, Indigenous Australians have the most contiguous culture ever on the planet. Therefore they have more ownership rights by time alone than any culture ever to have existed. Not that Indigenous Australians consider themselves owners in any sense anyway (so the point is moot).

If the custodians say don't climb it then don't. It's a matter of respect. I went and didn't - after reading the reasons behind not climbing it and talking to some locals, my wife and in were happy not to climb Uluru out of respect for their wishes.

Maybe respecting the wishes of those who are part of the oldest culture on the planet isn't a bad thing eh? [emoji6]

[CraigE]

So by that reasoning you should not ne allowed to 4wd in the mountains either or maybe ski in snow season

I agree entirely, it is not a theme park.

Uluru climbs to be banned after unanimous vote (http://thenewdaily.com.au/life/travel/2017/11/01/uluru-climbs-banned/?utm_source=Responsys&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20171101_PM_Update)

[CraigE]

The government owns the Cradle Mountains, it's a national park.
The govt do not own it, we all do.

[rammypluge]

Elevating the rights of one group (a particular group of Aborigines) over others should only be done if there is solid reason to, and if its not unpalatably discriminatory. Which i find this to be. Especially since religion has vast quantities of irrationality.

As much as many have heard about evolution, natural selection, survival of the fittest, etc, what isnt talked about is that displacement is also completely part of the natural order. If we look back at all the species and populations that have existed on this planet over millions of years, there is no way they could all fit on the planet in one era.

Times change, and overall, i think for the better. If not, throw all your stuff and education etc away, and go and live in a cave.

[justinc]

😣😣😣 still going on....😬😬😬

[Eevo]

The government owns the Cradle Mountains, it's a national park.

for the benefit of all australians. and even non australians.

[Eevo]

Interesting the ownership thing - if you want to get technical, Indigenous Australians have the most contiguous culture ever on the planet. Therefore they have more ownership rights by time alone than any culture ever to have existed. Not that Indigenous Australians consider themselves owners in any sense anyway (so the point is moot).

If the custodians say don't climb it then don't. It's a matter of respect. I went and didn't - after reading the reasons behind not climbing it and talking to some locals, my wife and in were happy not to climb Uluru out of respect for their wishes.

Maybe respecting the wishes of those who are part of the oldest culture on the planet isn't a bad thing eh? [emoji6]

thanks for your opinion. i personally couldnt care less about their wishes. it's not theirs to own or dictate.

and a hokey story about spirits and dream time is just that. a story made up to explain what wasnt understood.

[Eevo]

everyone is free to their beliefs. now they are forcing their beliefs on others.

[Eevo]

a really good read
Should tourists climb Uluru? (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/the-walrus-club/241047-should-tourists-climb-uluru.html)

[justinc]

😵😵😵😵😵😵😵😒😒😒😒😒😒

[Redback]

It's all about respect, if you don't respect someone for their beliefs or wishes, regardless of what they are then you won't get respect in return, simple really.

We didn't climb it out of respect for their beliefs and considering what people have done once up the top, urinating and crapping on the rock I mean really is it any wonder it wasn't closed years ago.

[Eevo]

considering what people have done once up the top, urinating and crapping on the rock I mean really is it any wonder it wasn't closed years ago.
some people do that in the street, but it's ok because they are "traditional owners".

[Redback]

some people do that in the street, but it's ok because they are "traditional owners".

And your point is??

[Landy Smurf]

When I was there, it was closed due to wind at the summit.
So I think the stats of 15% is not very accurate. It should be the stats of who climbs when it is open.
I do not really mind either way, can see points of all sides though. As long as I can keep swimming in Eli Creek, i am allG.

[trog]

First time there , walking up to the base of a climb, there was a plaque with the names and causes of death for quite a few. Now for someone terrified of heights , this was enough to put me off. Also recall hearing someone quietly explaining scientific and cultural reasons to not climb. Made sense to me , and I had a great time walking the circumference instead.

[Eevo]

And your point is??

hypocritical? double standards? respect?

[debruiser]

interesting discussion. I only found out about this today (never heard of the previous thread or topic before).

Personally I have never been to Ayres rock, I would like to go see it but I doubt I will at this rate.

I think it's sad that yet another "gate" is being locked.

[Lemo]

Instead of going down the road of should we shouldn't we, I would like to ask those who climbed why they did. If the answer is because it was there, well go climb the Harbour bridge. The view's better. If it was to learn more about the Aboriginal culture, then I may have a solution. In the time of drones, film the rock from all angles, with those sites able to be shown to non initiated people, made into a movie, and shown at the tourist resort before viewing the rock, from ground level. With a commentary from a trained aboriginal commentator, explaining the significance of the various sites, the stories[ as much as could be told] , could be used to educate the non initiated up to the point the law allowed. If the public showed an interest in the culture, law and dreaming of the site, it may show they respect it, and the culture. After all, that is what this is all about, respect. Who knows, with mutual respect, the climb may be opened again.

My wife and I travelled Aust some 20 years ago and at the time we opted not to climb and instead walked the circumference of the rock was a much better experience and we saw Uluru form a different and in my opinion better perspective.

We would have been one of only a hand full of people that actually did this walk as most were just lining up to climb.

Closing down the climb has been on the cards for a long time I'm surprised it's been open this long!

[Vern]

interesting discussion. I only found out about this today (never heard of the previous thread or topic before).

Personally I have never been to Ayres rock, I would like to go see it but I doubt I will at this rate.

I think it's sad that yet another "gate" is being locked.The gates not locked, you can still go there, and there is plenty to do and see.
I have been, read the sign and reasoning, chose not to climb it, but still had a great time there and lool forward to going back.

[weeds]

As long as I can keep swimming in Eli Creek, i am allG.

Be careful what you wish for

[rijidij]

We did the base walk, which was great, but standing on top of that rock was one of the most awesome experiences of all my travels. You can choose not to climb, but in my opinion you are missing out on something spectacular that you’ll never forget.

[Redback]

hypocritical? double standards? respect?

You know while up north on our big trip I found the toilets where the indigenous chose to congregate were the cleanest, now not having lived or spent a lot of time in these towns I can't actually say it is like this all the time, but I can say this, caravan parks are disgusting.

[Eevo]

My wife and I travelled Aust some 20 years ago and at the time we opted not to climb and instead walked the circumference of the rock was a much better experience and we saw Uluru form a different and in my opinion better perspective.

if you didnt climb, how do you know walking the circumference was the better experience?

i've done both and there is no comparision.
walking the olgas is better than uluru circumference walk imho.

[Eevo]

but I can say this, caravan parks are disgusting.

hey, we agree on something.

[Lemo]

if you didnt climb, how do you know walking the circumference was the better experience?

i've done both and there is no comparision.
walking the olgas is better than uluru circumference walk imho.

Maybe not a better experience but different and one that not many people would do, like the bus loads of people that just go to climb? And maybe not go if they now can't??

We did take a scenic flight over the Olgas as well as the walks and yes could say it was much better then the Uluru walks.

[bee utey]

😣😣😣 still going on....😬😬😬

WELL STOP CLICKING ON THE LINK, YA WOBBLY!! [bigrolf]

[Eevo]

It's all about respect, if you don't respect someone for their beliefs or wishes, regardless of what they are then you won't get respect in return, simple really.

i can respect someones beliefs, but does that doesn't mean i have to follow or endorse them.

[Nick S]

Climbed it in 1986, great experience and fantastic views but since then our laws have changed with recognition of the traditional owners. Owners can decide what happens on their property so if they say no then no it is. Things change, there are lots of things I could do in the 80s that are not allowed now unfortunately. Perhaps things will change again in the future. Went back there again a few years ago and walked around the base which was good but different. I think I can see both sides of the argument and appreciate that both sides are passionate about their views but the locals are now the owners and that's it.
We just need to accept and adapt to change

[Eevo]

Maybe not a better experience but different and one that not many people would do, like the bus loads of people that just go to climb? And maybe not go if they now can't??

We did take a scenic flight over the Olgas as well as the walks and yes could say it was much better then the Uluru walks.

i'm not sure what it was like 20 years ago, but 5 years ago there wasnt a line up or busloads of people wanting to do the climb. majority did the sunrise/sunset trip and took photos from the lookout. many did the walk around or the Olgas.

the base of the climb isnt marked on the map and we stumbled upon it looking for the something else.

[bob10]

It's frustrating to read some of the comments from people who project no understanding at all of the significance of the rock to the indigenous people. Considering the history of European colonisation of this country it should come as no surprise. One man, Charles P Mountford , first visited Uluru in 1935. Mountford, O.B. E. , M.A.D.Litt. [ Adel.], Dip.Anthropol. [Cantab.]Hon.D.Litt. [ Melb. ], then set about finding out about the life of the Pitjandjara people. Living with them, studying them, culminating in a book," Ayers Rock, its people, their beliefs, and their art. " .

The book deals with Ayers Rock and its people, by discussing three aspects. From the Book;

"[ a ] The tribal country of the Pitjandjara , on the eastern boundary of which Ayers rock, or to give it the aboriginal name, Uluru, is situated , the daily life of the men and women, and their means of gaining a livelihood in their inhospitable desert country

[ b ] The aborigines' conception of the creation of their world , and in particular the mythological origin of the topographical features of Ayers Rock.

[ c ] A study of the graphic arts of Ayers Rock, ; the paintings in the many caves around the base of the monolith

In recent years the effects of civilization and the restrictive practices of the Christian Missions have caused rapid changes to take place in the culture of the Pitjandjara tribe. Therefore references will be made to their culture as it was when in 1940 I [ Mountford] made a long camel journey through their own country. At this time these people almost untouched by external influences were following their original way of life. "
Published in 1965, by Angus and Robinson, to me , climbing the Rock to admire the view, is walking around with your eyes open, but your mind shut.

[gusthedog]

thanks for your opinion. i personally couldnt care less about their wishes. it's not theirs to own or dictate.

and a hokey story about spirits and dream time is just that. a story made up to explain what wasnt understood.I feel the same way about Christianity.

[Classic88]

I feel the same way about Christianity.

Well quite, it's no less believable than the bloke who parted the seas or the other one who turned water into wine and then came back to life after three days in a cave.

I don't hold any truck with any religion but I'll respect other people's right to practise them.

[Eevo]

I feel the same way about Christianity.
as do I.

[trout1105]

The Government decided that the rock belonged to the traditional owners along with other large swathes of land around the country so it is theirs to do what they wish with.
If anyone has a problem with this then they need to address their concerns to the Government.

[Eevo]

The Government decided that the rock belonged to the traditional owners along with other large swathes of land around the country so it is theirs to do what they wish with.
If anyone has a problem with this then they need to address their concerns to the Government.

thats the crux of the problem yes.

[Classic88]

thats the crux of the problem yes.

Don't see why it's a problem. You can't actually walk all the way up to Stonehenge anymore but no one made a fuss about it. Plenty of religious sites you can visit as a tourist and you're asked to cover up or remove your shoes etc. Not sure why this is any different.

[87County]

The Government decided that the rock belonged to the traditional owners along with other large swathes of land around the country so it is theirs to do what they wish with.
If anyone has a problem with this then they need to address their concerns to the Government.

The courts have said that traditional owners always owned it - no government "decided" that .... :)

[Pickles2]

We did the base walk, which was great, but standing on top of that rock was one of the most awesome experiences of all my travels. You can choose not to climb, but in my opinion you are missing out on something spectacular that you’ll never forget.
My thoughts exactly, I got "involved" the last time this subject was raised so most would know my views.
Yes, I've climbed it, and I would do so again, like you, I remember it well, particularly the view from the top, which was simply amazing.....so amazing that I cannot adequately describe it.
I did climb with respect, absolutely I did. And if I could climb it again, I would,...not fit enough now, that's for sure.
What I would support is that maybe some sort of "Guided Tour Climbs" could be arranged, where all aspects of climbing it could be explained, for which there would be a charge. For me, that would be even better, but like I said, I wouldn't be fit enough to climb now.
Pickles.

[Classic88]

The courts have said that traditional owners always owned it - no government "decided" that .... :)

The judiciary is a branch of the government though along with the executive and legislative branches so if it was decided at High or Federal Court level then it's a government decision.

[rijidij]

................................particularly the view from the top, which was simply amazing.....so amazing that I cannot adequately describe it....................................

You're right, it is hard to adequately describe the view from the top, and do it justice. It's well worth the effort and I'll be trying to get back to the top of the rock within the next couple of years.

[Eevo]

Don't see why it's a problem. You can't actually walk all the way up to Stonehenge anymore but no one made a fuss about it. Plenty of religious sites you can visit as a tourist and you're asked to cover up or remove your shoes etc. Not sure why this is any different.
i didnt know that about Stonehenge.

how many religious sites are national parks?

[Classic88]

i didnt know that about Stonehenge.

how many religious sites are national parks?

No idea. Probably many globally. And just because something is under 'national ownership', doesn't mean its ownership is actually divided amongst the citizens of a country. Governments exist as legal entities as well as parliamentary bodies; they have to in order to be able to do anything involving contracts etc. A National Park (or any public space) isn't actually owned by the citizens anymore than a Naval Base or Federation Square is given that both are Government land. Access to the former will be granted by charter created when the park was designated.

[rangieman]

Fitzy[bigwhistle]

The Popcorn is Running Low[bighmmm]





https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/11/22.jpg

[CraigE]

Not going to get in a right or wrong slanging match, but seems there is a lot of rubbish information out there.
I climbed it back in 96 and the view is amazing.
Now it will be interesting to see if they can actually stop you.
Talking to the local indigenous when we were there it had nothing to do with it being a sacred site. The area that is a sacred site has been no access for 40 plus years and it is to do with the initiation of young men, which in itself is a ridiculous and barbaric tradition. Those that know of this will know exactly what I am talking about.
What they explained to me when I was there was the reason they did not want people to climb the rock was because if someone fell and was killed they had to mourn them and even if someone was injured it upsets them.
Seems these recent excuses of it being sacred and not climbing have just been made up recently.
Was all good while they were making millions of tourist dollars, for something that they cannot legally charge access for anyway.
Its a bit like working in the Pilbara with all these sites that most have never visited and never will again once listed as a sacred site. Yes we should preserve them when and where we can, but we also must be realistic and the named sacred site must have real significance and not just be a bartering tool.

[Eevo]

No idea. Probably many globally. And just because something is under 'national ownership', doesn't mean its ownership is actually divided amongst the citizens of a country. Governments exist as legal entities as well as parliamentary bodies; they have to in order to be able to do anything involving contracts etc. A National Park (or any public space) isn't actually owned by the citizens anymore than a Naval Base or Federation Square is given that both are Government land. Access to the former will be granted by charter created when the park was designated.

correct, and national parks are there for the enjoyment of all (while being conservation focused). like Kosciuszko National Park for example.

[Redback]

i can respect someones beliefs, but does that doesn't mean i have to follow or endorse them.

Didn't say you had to, I don't believe in their beliefs either, just like I don't believe in Oden and all that other mythical stuff, if they want to believe then I can respect that just like kneeling and making the sign of the cross when you enter a Catholic church, whether you believe or not, it's a small sign of respect.

[Eevo]

just like kneeling and making the sign of the cross when you enter a Catholic church, whether you believe or not, it's a small sign of respect.
having been raised a catholic, I would of considered this inappropriate. but my point is moot. you dont believe it, but you still subscribed to it.

[rick130]

if you didnt climb, how do you know walking the circumference was the better experience?

i've done both and there is no comparision.
walking the olgas is better than uluru circumference walk imho.And I agree with you there.

[Fatso]

WA has a bigger rock than Uluru , you can come and climb Mt Augustas if it turns your jollies on . [bigsmile]

[Eevo]

WA has a bigger rock than Uluru , you can come and climb Mt Augustas if it turns your jollies on . [bigsmile]

it's on my bucket list

[rammypluge]

About respect, i believe that all places of significance like this should be in government hands and accessible to all that respect it. It is my wish that myself and others are able to access places like this. Shutting it down is not respecting my beliefs or wishes.

[bob10]

Not going to get in a right or wrong slanging match, but seems there is a lot of rubbish information out there.
I climbed it back in 96 and the view is amazing.
Now it will be interesting to see if they can actually stop you.
Talking to the local indigenous when we were there it had nothing to do with it being a sacred site. The area that is a sacred site has been no access for 40 plus years and it is to do with the initiation of young men, which in itself is a ridiculous and barbaric tradition. Those that know of this will know exactly what I am talking about.
What they explained to me when I was there was the reason they did not want people to climb the rock was because if someone fell and was killed they had to mourn them and even if someone was injured it upsets them.
Seems these recent excuses of it being sacred and not climbing have just been made up recently.

The locals you talked to, were they of the Mala clan, or the Kunia clan.? More than likely they were from far away, just trying to make a quid out of the tourists, their information may be regarded as rubbish. The government of the tribe is in the hands of the well informed old men, not the physically active youth. It is the old men who maintain the ancient laws and decide the correct time for the performance of the rituals on which the social and philosophical life of the tribe depended. the full knowledge of the mythical past and the rights associated with it belongs to only these tribal elders. It is not the duty of a priestly class to preserve the traditional myths and their rites but a number of groups of initiated men each of whom is responsible for memorising the traditions and songs of their clan territories and transmitting them unaltered to the succeeding generations.

The initiation ceremony may seem barbaric to the European, but it is part of the essence of the clan's existence, whereby the young start their journey of knowledge , each step gaining more knowledge , leading to their becoming the well informed old men. What seems ridiculous to us, has sustained the aborigine for thousands of years. Until the coming of the European, and the Missionaries, who broke the cycle . I see mention of paint sniffers, and other such stories. I've seen it , I lived in the Territory, travelled all over it. Visited Papunya, Yuendumu, Docker River, yes there are problems, but there are also good stories. But good stories don't make the European feel superior. Sacred or not, if the owners don't want it climbed, it shouldn't be. I can't help feeling that there is a much deeper reason for this action than Uluru sites being sacred.

[101RRS]

I certainly respect the decision of the indigenous owners but I think this is an opportunity missed to educate people to the cultural heritage of the local peoples. I am sure it goes on already in the area but there is nothing like a climb to the top under strictly controlled conditions with indigenous guides - I guess along the lines of the Sydney Harbour Bridge Climb.

I think they have miscalculated the thoughts of the rest of the population which will reinforce some negative stereotypes. While restricting access, using this "theme park" as a learning experience would enhance cultural understanding and reconciliation (but to be honest I am not sure what reconciliation actually means as under law we are all equal and some would say some more than others) .

Garry

[rangieman]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/11/27.jpg

[bee utey]

I vote for a cable car to be installed to take people up the rock, their feet never need touch the ruddy sacred sandstone. And a Maccas at the top too. A great money spinner, I'm sure.

[Pateyw]

O no now you have mentioned that sacred word MONEY they might even take up that thought.
what a great idea after all your not climbing OUR rock.[bigsmile]

[p38arover]

A recent DNA test taken by my sister indicates we have aboriginal ancestry. I don't mind if you climb the rock.

[Vern]

A recent DNA test taken by my sister indicates we have aboriginal ancestry. I don't mind if you climb the rock.That will come in handy if you want to get a job! You can now tick the yes i am aboriginal box.

[p38arover]

I have thought of that. I'm not sure what percentage I need to qualify.

I don't need a home loan so I can't try for that.

A new Cruiser! [bigsmile]

[Hogarthde]

In July 1982, I was working as a plantie for White Industries ,the company that " built" Yulara.
As an operator ,the only men to precede me on the new village site where the surveyors.

Most of us where billeted at the Inland Motel, and I mixed quite often with the Aboriginals including a man called Nipper ,(of Chamberlain 'fame' ), and it was never mentioned about the rock being of any great importance ,although Maggie Spring was a water point.

I climbed the rock probably 20 times ,jogged around it as often and also climbed Mt. Olga.
none of the Aboriginal blokes berated me , all they wanted was to swim in the pool that was built in " that proper flash place" Yulara

[Chops]

I certainly respect the decision of the indigenous owners but I think this is an opportunity missed to educate people to the cultural heritage of the local peoples. I am sure it goes on already in the area but there is nothing like a climb to the top under strictly controlled conditions with indigenous guides - I guess along the lines of the Sydney Harbour Bridge Climb.

I think they have miscalculated the thoughts of the rest of the population which will reinforce some negative stereotypes. While restricting access, using this "theme park" as a learning experience would enhance cultural understanding and reconciliation (but to be honest I am not sure what reconciliation actually means as under law we are all equal and some would say some more than others) .

Garry


This is what I would like to see also. I think in the last thread on this subject, I said the same thing too.

Like a few others have mentioned, no one at all seemed worried about us climbing the rock when we were there in the late 70's, in fact, it was encouraged. We also had the fortune to "meet as such" an elder living in one of the caves who was introduced to us by another older aboriginal elder. We also had the privilege of being the first major group to walk through the Olga's [biggrin]

The view from the top is beyond words as has been said, but I would have loved then, and would still love now, to be "taught/educated" in the history and culture of the area whilst being up on top.

[trout1105]

There could be a myriad of reasons why climbing on the rock is being banned But using the excuse of cultural sensitivity to effect this ban is Hogwash.
It could be politically motivated or it could be something as simple as the insurance premiums being increased But saying the entire rock is sacred is Bull****.

[PLR]

Things change i guess but when there a while back , climbed the rock and around the Olgas which at the time was no drama .

There was one and only the one sacred place that we were asked not to go into at the rock , we walked past the site as the track at the time was around the base and passed by .

At the time the aboriginal population at the rock had a government figure fluctuating from 6 to 40 people didn`t know that till i saw the report , there was a group of people outside the store mostly women and children that i remember and a number of dogs , we didn`t see anyone else where other than visitors like us .

I had the thought that my memory may have been off because it`s a while ago but i found a
House of Reps report from 1977 and it also covers earlier government happenings and proposals in the area , show the original way in and airfield etc

I think i was very lucky to go when i did , think i would be disappointed if i return and as typed when there it was no drama about the climb like it is now .

The little shrimp type things in the pools on the rock is something i remember .

[bob10]

There could be a myriad of reasons why climbing on the rock is being banned But using the excuse of cultural sensitivity to effect this ban is Hogwash.
It could be politically motivated or it could be something as simple as the insurance premiums being increased But saying the entire rock is sacred is Bull****.

Has anyone actually said that?

[bob10]

The little shrimp type things in the pools on the rock is something i remember .
The blind albino fish are unique to ayers rock.

[trout1105]

Has anyone actually said that?

The initiation site has always been a No Go area But Not the rest of the rock, This climbing issue is a quite new development.
Make of it what you will But giving the entire rock a sacred site status is something it never had before.

[pop058]

The blind albino fish are unique to ayers rock.

I believe they have also been found in the Pilbara region as well.

[Tombie]

The blind albino fish are unique to ayers rock.

Ayers Rock... you slipping back in time Bob[emoji13]

[rangieman]

The blind albino fish are unique to ayers rock.
They must be sacred ancestor`s [bighmmm]

[Tombie]

The blind albino fish are unique to ayers rock.

The creatures are Triops on the top in the pools.
The fish aren’t unique...

[Classic88]

Is it new or was it simply not listened to previously? A request to stop the climbs was made when the land was handed back (and then lease to the national parks service) 30 years ago.

[trout1105]

Call me a cynic But 99% of the time this issue of sacred sites is only brought up when there is Money involved.
As soon as some Money changes hands the area that is apparently So important and culturally significant suddenly can be accessed and used.[bigwhistle]

[rammypluge]

I have thought of that. I'm not sure what percentage I need to qualify.

I don't need a home loan so I can't try for that.

A new Cruiser! [bigsmile]My impression is that it is not so much what the percentage is, but what you "identify" as. There seem to be heaps with only say 5% indigenous that "identify" as indigenous. Many even clearly have a white brain, like Stan Grant.

[rammypluge]

I cant help wondering if some deep lefties/greenies are involved somehow. It seems like an attempt to simultaneously give power towards people perceived as less powerful in society, as well as reduce any human impact.

[Pickles2]

The initiation site has always been a No Go area But Not the rest of the rock, This climbing issue is a quite new development.
Make of it what you will But giving the entire rock a sacred site status is something it never had before.
There have been a few comments on this thread about the "Sacred Site" nature of The Rock, and that the entire Rock was not considered "Sacred" in years gone by.
A very good friend of mine Grahame Walsh, grew up on a grazing property in the Roma area of Western Queensland, & grew up amongst the Aboriginal people.
He subsequently became Australia's foremost expert in Aboriginal Rock Art. He published many books on Aboriginal Rock Art. He was also very knowledgeable on Aboriginal culture, and He received an Honorary Doctorate from Melbourne Uni for his work. I have heard it said that Grahame had forgotten more about Aboriginal culture than most people ever knew.
He told me years ago, that the Rock itself was not sacred, but that there were many sacred sites around it. When I traveled there maybe 20 years ago, we spoke to many Aboriginal people, but none discouraged us from climbing.
I know I've said much of this before, but climbing will soon be not allowable, & I accept that, so unfortunately a most (I cannot think of a word to adequately describe) experience will not be possible.
But I can only say that climbing the rock & experiencing the view from the top is one of the most memorable things I have done in Aussie, the memory of which will stay with me forever.
Pickles.

[bob10]

The creatures are Triops on the top in the pools.
The fish aren’t unique...

Triops. I was told by a random local they were unique. There you go, have to be careful who you listen to. I'd never seen them before , but I guess if you think about it, any cave system could have them

[bob10]

The final word comes down to the indigenous people themselves. Can't be any clearer, really. Those who climb stand on the spirits of their ancestors. Kinda like desecrating the graves at Gallipoli.

We, the Anangu traditional owners, have this to say

Uluru is sacred to our culture. It is a place of great knowledge. Under our traditional law climbing is not permitted.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/11/50.jpg P E F T M

[123rover50]

Me and a mate camped at Ayres Rock in my old Ambulance for two or three days back in 1968. no other bugger there at all, black , white or brindle
They were the days, go where you like , camp anywhere[bigsmile1]

The view from the top was awesome, bit chilly but.

Keith

[bob10]

Is it new or was it simply not listened to previously? A request to stop the climbs was made when the land was handed back (and then lease to the national parks service) 30 years ago.

Just not listened to. And back in the day, indigenous people's wishes were ignored, they had no rights. Besides, there was money to be made.

[rammypluge]

So, they used to tilt up the rock, put their dead bodies underneath, then let it back down again?

It seems in Egypt you can even walk into the pyramids, which a lot of effort were put into, as opposed to a rock that just sits there.

I cant help wondering if before white man came along the aborigines crafted a bullsarse story to dissuade other aborigines from climbing the rock, because it was dangerous and did not provide food, clothing or shelter?

No medicare back then.

[fitzy]

Looks as though the show is coming to an end.
We’re all out of popcorn [emoji897] but there’s choc tops left.
I hope this show has a happy ending, although that seems unlikely.

[bob10]

So, they used to tilt up the rock, put their dead bodies underneath, then let it back down again?

It seems in Egypt you can even walk into the pyramids, which a lot of effort were put into, as opposed to a rock that just sits there.

I cant help wondering if before white man came along the aborigines crafted a bullsarse story to dissuade other aborigines from climbing the rock, because it was dangerous and did not provide food, clothing or shelter?

No medicare back then.

You really should do some study, that comment just makes you look so foolish, I'm afraid.

[bob10]

There have been a few comments on this thread about the "Sacred Site" nature of The Rock, and that the entire Rock was not considered "Sacred" in years gone by.
A very good friend of mine Grahame Walsh, grew up on a grazing property in the Roma area of Western Queensland, & grew up amongst the Aboriginal people.
He subsequently became Australia's foremost expert in Aboriginal Rock Art. He published many books on Aboriginal Rock Art. He was also very knowledgeable on Aboriginal culture, and He received an Honorary Doctorate from Melbourne Uni for his work. I have heard it said that Grahame had forgotten more about Aboriginal culture than most people ever knew.
He told me years ago, that the Rock itself was not sacred, but that there were many sacred sites around it. When I traveled there maybe 20 years ago, we spoke to many Aboriginal people, but none discouraged us from climbing.
I know I've said much of this before, but climbing will soon be not allowable, & I accept that, so unfortunately a most (I cannot think of a word to adequately describe) experience will not be possible.
But I can only say that climbing the rock & experiencing the view from the top is one of the most memorable things I have done in Aussie, the memory of which will stay with me forever.
Pickles.

This Grahame Walsh? Seems like he wouldn't give a toss for aboriginal culture. Only out for his own glory.

Rock art expert accused of grave robbing (http://www.theage.com.au/national/rock-art-expert-accused-of-grave-robbing-20130315-2g60r.html)

[bob10]

Charles P Mountford knew more about the aboriginal culture than Walsh ever would.

Aborigines Of The Sea Coast - YouTube (https://youtu.be/seh0-_JMBuQ)

[Pickles2]

This Grahame Walsh? Seems like he wouldn't give a toss for aboriginal culture. Only out for his own glory.

Rock art expert accused of grave robbing (http://www.theage.com.au/national/rock-art-expert-accused-of-grave-robbing-20130315-2g60r.html)
Before you comment Bob, maybe you should do some research about him,......unless of course you think that Doctorates are handed out without any merit. Also visit Takaraka (not sure about my spelling!) at Carnarvon Gorge, created by Grahame.
I'll give you another example of how opinions can differ. We were on a holiday in Mildura several years ago, probably many years ago in fact. It was when John Howard was refusing to say "Sorry". You would no doubt emember that.
Anyway, we were holidaying in Mildura, & my next door neighbour had said that we should visit Mungo National Park, so we did, via the Aboriginal managed & controled "Harry Nanya Tours",...who are still in operation today.
Anyway, when we were on this tour, which, on this occasion, was conducted by three Aboriginals, who I engaged in serious conversation, ...as i do,.....and I said to them, what do you think of the "Sorry" issue?....They said, and I quote, "Martin, we're simply not interested, we're out here trying to make a dollar,.."Sorry" doesn't make anything to us,..it isn't going to make any difference to our lives.We not interested in John Howard or anyone else saying sorry to us"...their words, not mine. .
Really good guys. This tour included champagne in the Park. There was a bottle left over, so my Aboriginal friends gave Wifey & I the bottle to drink in the bus, on the way back to Mildura!
It was an immensely enjoyable trip, where I enjoyed interaction with my Aboriginal brothers, where we both learned things, about each other.
Pickles.

[bob10]

Before you comment Bob, maybe you should do some research about him,......unless of course you think that Doctorates are handed out without any merit. Also visit Takaraka (not sure about my spelling!) at Carnarvon Gorge, created by Grahame.
I'll give you another example of how opinions can differ. We were on a holiday in Mildura several years ago, probably many years ago in fact. It was when John Howard was refusing to say "Sorry". You would no doubt emember that.
Anyway, we were holidaying in Mildura, & my next door neighbour had said that we should visit Mungo National Park, so we did, via the Aboriginal managed & controled "Harry Nanya Tours",...who are still in operation today.
Anyway, when we were on this tour, which, on this occasion, was conducted by three Aboriginals, who I engaged in serious conversation, ...as i do,.....and I said to them, what do you think of the "Sorry" issue?....They said, and I quote, "Martin, we're simply not interested, we're out here trying to make a dollar,.."Sorry" doesn't make anything to us,..it isn't going to make any difference to our lives.We not interested in John Howard or anyone else saying sorry to us"...their words, not mine. .
Really good guys. This tour included champagne in the Park. There was a bottle left over, so my Aboriginal friends gave Wifey & I the bottle to drink in the bus, on the way back to Mildura!
It was an immensely enjoyable trip, where I enjoyed interaction with my Aboriginal brothers, where we both learned things, about each other.
Pickles.


I have been doing research about Walsh . Doctorate? he made sure he had the support of the establishment, and endeared himself to potential financial backers. Indeed, he did the hard work, and put the effort in , but he made no attempt to understand the indigenous culture. He found the Bradbury's, but had no idea how to interpret them. To the extent he said some art depicting ships could not have been done by the locals. Even though the locals could have told him the origin, if he bothered to ask. If he knew how to ask. Most indigenous people outside of Canberra will tell you sorry is a white mans ' concept. Bought on by a guilt complex. And most will tell you the gubba just doesn't get it. And we don't.

[biggin]

...

[cuppabillytea]

I couldn't climb it now, let alone 2019. The idea never appealed to me any way. Better view from a chopper.

[Pickles2]

I have been doing research about Walsh . Doctorate? he made sure he had the support of the establishment, and endeared himself to potential financial backers. Indeed, he did the hard work, and put the effort in , but he made no attempt to understand the indigenous culture. He found the Bradbury's, but had no idea how to interpret them. To the extent he said some art depicting ships could not have been done by the locals. Even though the locals could have told him the origin, if he bothered to ask. If he knew how to ask. Most indigenous people outside of Canberra will tell you sorry is a white mans ' concept. Bought on by a guilt complex. And most will tell you the gubba just doesn't get it. And we don't.
Hello Bob, Glad you did the research on one of my very good school friends, Grahame Walsh. It was actually The Bradshaws, not Bradburys, but I know what you are referring to.
Yes Grahame had several financial backers, and He needed them, and they wouldn't have backed him without good reason. Dame Edith Murdoch loved Grahame, knew him very well, bought him several Land Cruisers which He needed for his research, and He certainly needed good vehicles when He was as you say "doing the hard work",...when He sometimes would spend over six months on his own, in very remote lcations, doing his research, and supporting himself, and yes, whether you recognize it or not, conversing & relating to the local Aboriginal people. His work is HUGE,..literally thousands & thousands of images, and of course before digital, all on film.
You mention The Bradshaws. Another of Grahhame's ways of financing his research was to lead Safaris for people interested in Aboriginal Culture/Rock Art etc. Well on one occasion, one of his passengers was Maria Myers, wife of well known Melbourne based Q.C. Alan Myers,...well He took her to visit the Bradshaws which at the time were in danger, because the future of the property was uncertain,...so she bought the property.
Grahame was passionate about his work, The Aboriginal people & all things relative. He made no money out of it, his work simply paid for his research. It was not done for money.
Funnily enough his other passions were American Muscle Cars of the GM variety, and collecting WW11 Souveniers,..He had the biggest collection I've ever seen including some 3rd Reich items. He was also a world renowned authority on Japanese Samurai Swords,..He was a man of many talents.
Grahame Walsh 20/9/44 - 18/8/07 (http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/bradshaws/grahame-walsh.php)
Pickles

[Pickles2]

For anyone that is interested, here is a link that I've just found on the net re Grahame Walsh, it's amazing what you can find.
There would not be many, particularly a non Aboriginal, who dedicated more of their life to Aboriginal culture and its preservation, for no personal gain,than Grahame.
There's heaps more on there about him, and his work.
Nocookies | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/archive/news/lone-wolf-discovered-art-for-ages/news-story/3865aad1abcec7610ff92526a503357a)
Pickles.

[manic]

We can drive 1000s of km through baron landscapes and finally reach something worth looking at.... for some reason we climb up to the only point where we can no longer see it and look back out at the baron landscape. Whats wrong with us?

The desert is flat, you dont need Uluru to see it. Ive seen spectacular desert views all the way to the horizon just sitting on a sand dune.

The climb will be closed 2019, so what, no great loss. That spectacular rock majestically rising out of the desert will still be there - to be seen!

[Ean Austral]

I was part of a group last night and this topic came up , a few people were very lets say" animated " about the subject , funnily enough they have never visited the rock and had no intent of ever going , but the fact they felt they were loosing the right to something was more the point.


Me - I been there 5 maybe even 6 times , haven't climbed it - seriously thought about it once but got to ****ed the night before and couldn't be bothered exerting the effort the next day . Our last visit was to me the best of them all , arrived on the 31st December , watched the sun go down on the rock with my wife and enjoyed the amazing array of colours that we seen even after the sun had set . Woke up the next morning to see the beginning of a new year sun rising on the rock and was amazed once again at the different array of colours on the opposite side . I don't know why , but both my wife and I agreed it was the best new year we've had in our 50+ years.


My simple brain looks at it this way - I view the traditional owners wants of any area no different to how I view any religion, they all have their places of worship, be it a church, mosque, rock, river whatever , even if its not your thing , if you enter that area you abide by the rules and respect the cultures , if you don't want to do that then don't go there - simple

I have heard the " my tax $$ pay for that argument , well guess what , your tax $$ and lot more of them are being wasted far worse in every city and town in the country , but that's for another thread.

My 2c worth

Cheers Ean

[trout1105]

I can't think of any non aboriginal religious site in Australia that covers more than 300 hectares that also charges tourists to visit there.
I also very much doubt that any non aboriginal religion would deny access to their church, Mosque or other sacred building or site based on their Race.

[Ean Austral]

I can't think of any non aboriginal religious site in Australia that covers more than 300 hectares that also charges tourists to visit there.
I also very much doubt that any non aboriginal religion would deny access to their church, Mosque or other sacred building or site based on their Race.

I never got charged to see Uluru, I got charged to enter a national park , so that happens in every state in Australia as far as I know.

That's funny, I went on a tour of a church once and I got asked for a gold coin donation - does that count ?

I have heard, but only thru media outlets that plenty of people get refused access to mosque's - but its possible it could be fake media.

like I said my simple brain may look at things different to everyone else.

Cheers Ean

[Ean Austral]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/11/83.jpg

I even found a photo of the entrance sign just in case its not realised its a national park.

Cheers Ean

[ramblingboy42]

can't see Ayers Rock mentioned anywhere there......

[trout1105]

I don't think anyone is disputing Uluru's/Ayers Rock's status as a national park But it only holds this status via a lease from the traditional owners since 1995 which involves the use of Public money and resources.
There may be a few others But in the majority of National Parks there is No discrimination regarding access based on race like there is now to be at Ululru.

[Ean Austral]

I don't think anyone is disputing Uluru's/Ayers Rock's status as a national park But it only holds this status via a lease from the traditional owners since 1995 which involves the use of Public money and resources.
There may be a few others But in the majority of National Parks there is No discrimination regarding access based on race like there is now to be at Ululru.

Its not something I have followed but maybe the media down your way has been more on to it , but certainly I haven't seen anything in the media up here saying "All white people" are banned from climbing , my understanding is its all people black or white except the traditional owners , which would be the local people. If the aboriginal people in that area are like many "Clans" up here , then they will take great offence to other aboriginals from far and wide not obeying there wishes.


There are still "clan wars " in many area's up here , especially around port keats that don't take kindly to others coming into their sacred area's. I seen it with my own eye/s many years ago when I was working for a barge company who were delivering the communities supplies during the wet season. Even the police would lock themselves in the cop shop till things calmed down.


Anyway , others may feel hard done by because of this closure but I am fine with it.


Cheers Ean

[Tombie]

Never climbed it. Never intended to..
Climb plenty of rocks at work!

Interestingly I worked with an Aboriginal Mining company, I’m mates with a couple of the local elders....

And they aren’t racist in the slightest, in fact far from it..
And having learned the history of the local region they would have every right to carry a huge chip on their shoulders.

You know what though - they aren’t - they share the belief that the history is for everyone, and that we should learn it all as it’s for them and all the “new arrivals” (my term for approx 200 years)...

All they ask is that we respect areas of significance, I’ve been taken to see such places and they are worthy of respect.

The ones that corrupt the traditional beliefs for their gain are the primary cause of the racial divide... these Elders are a far more down to earth and respectful mob. And seek awareness of their history, respect for it, and believe in opportunity where possible for locals.

The company has a mix of “White” and “Black” and all get along; look at the man, not the skin colour.


With the ‘Rock’ - if it’s now recognised as Tribal land then they own it - and have the right to say who does what - just like the land I own. Come to my place, obey my rules or **** off!

[Eevo]

We can drive 1000s of km through baron landscapes and finally reach something worth looking at.... for some reason we climb up to the only point where we can no longer see it and look back out at the baron landscape. Whats wrong with us?

The desert is flat, you dont need Uluru to see it. Ive seen spectacular desert views all the way to the horizon just sitting on a sand dune.

The climb will be closed 2019, so what, no great loss. That spectacular rock majestically rising out of the desert will still be there - to be seen!


why are you driving your landrover?
it sitting in the driveway should be enough.

[Eevo]

. Come to my place, obey my rules or **** off!

whats your entry fee?
land rover discount?

[bob10]

Never climbed it. Never intended to..
Climb plenty of rocks at work!

Interestingly I worked with an Aboriginal Mining company, I’m mates with a couple of the local elders....

And they aren’t racist in the slightest, in fact far from it..
And having learned the history of the local region they would have every right to carry a huge chip on their shoulders.

You know what though - they aren’t - they share the belief that the history is for everyone, and that we should learn it all as it’s for them and all the “new arrivals” (my term for approx 200 years)...

All they ask is that we respect areas of significance, I’ve been taken to see such places and they are worthy of respect.

The ones that corrupt the traditional beliefs for their gain are the primary cause of the racial divide... these Elders are a far more down to earth and respectful mob. And seek awareness of their history, respect for it, and believe in opportunity where possible for locals.

The company has a mix of “White” and “Black” and all get along; look at the man, not the skin colour.


With the ‘Rock’ - if it’s now recognised as Tribal land then they own it - and have the right to say who does what - just like the land I own. Come to my place, obey my rules or **** off!

Spot on, brother.

[bob10]

For anyone that is interested, here is a link that I've just found on the net re Grahame Walsh, it's amazing what you can find.
There would not be many, particularly a non Aboriginal, who dedicated more of their life to Aboriginal culture and its preservation, for no personal gain,than Grahame.
There's heaps more on there about him, and his work.
Nocookies | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/archive/news/lone-wolf-discovered-art-for-ages/news-story/3865aad1abcec7610ff92526a503357a)
Pickles.

Thanks for that, Pickles

[bob10]

Hello Bob, Glad you did the research on one of my very good school friends, Grahame Walsh. It was actually The Bradshaws, not Bradburys, but I know what you are referring to.
Yes Grahame had several financial backers, and He needed them, and they wouldn't have backed him without good reason. Dame Edith Murdoch loved Grahame, knew him very well, bought him several Land Cruisers which He needed for his research, and He certainly needed good vehicles when He was as you say "doing the hard work",...when He sometimes would spend over six months on his own, in very remote lcations, doing his research, and supporting himself, and yes, whether you recognize it or not, conversing & relating to the local Aboriginal people. His work is HUGE,..literally thousands & thousands of images, and of course before digital, all on film.
You mention The Bradshaws. Another of Grahhame's ways of financing his research was to lead Safaris for people interested in Aboriginal Culture/Rock Art etc. Well on one occasion, one of his passengers was Maria Myers, wife of well known Melbourne based Q.C. Alan Myers,...well He took her to visit the Bradshaws which at the time were in danger, because the future of the property was uncertain,...so she bought the property.
Grahame was passionate about his work, The Aboriginal people & all things relative. He made no money out of it, his work simply paid for his research. It was not done for money.
Funnily enough his other passions were American Muscle Cars of the GM variety, and collecting WW11 Souveniers,..He had the biggest collection I've ever seen including some 3rd Reich items. He was also a world renowned authority on Japanese Samurai Swords,..He was a man of many talents.
Grahame Walsh 20/9/44 - 18/8/07 (http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/bradshaws/grahame-walsh.php)
Pickles

Got me there Pickles. Just tell me what good he did for the people he earned his reputation from.

[bee utey]

Order a fake one from China, they already have the prototype:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/11/88.jpg


Plonk it down next to Lake Burley Griffin, gives the ruddy tourists to that place something new to climb on, tell 'em it's the real one, they'll never know.

The old one can go back to being a perching place for blowies and wedgies.

[Classic88]

Isn't it just that a group of our fellow human beings has - peacefully and respectfully - asked others to respect their beliefs (which themselves are respectful and peaceful).

I, and others, may not share those beliefs but the 'cost' or 'loss' is realistically negligible to us whereas the gains to them (again, our fellow human beings), at least spirituality, are significant.

[trog]

Rock fishing for carp , I'm up for it !

[bob10]

Isn't it just that a group of our fellow human beings has - peacefully and respectfully - asked others to respect their beliefs (which themselves are respectful and peaceful).

I, and others, may not share those beliefs but the 'cost' or 'loss' is realistically negligible to us whereas the gains to them (again, our fellow human beings), at least spirituality, are significant.

I think I understand how, after the battle of the little big horn, the majority of the Sioux nation moved north, to Canada, where they knew they would be treated fairly, Canadians are alright, eh.

[trog]

Isn't it just that a group of our fellow human beings has - peacefully and respectfully - asked others to respect their beliefs (which themselves are respectful and peaceful).

I, and others, may not share those beliefs but the 'cost' or 'loss' is realistically negligible to us whereas the gains to them (again, our fellow human beings), at least spirituality, are significant.

I think I understand how, after the battle of the little big horn, the majority of the Sioux nation moved north, to Canada, where they knew they would be treated fairly, Canadians are alright, eh.

You have met me , am I alright ? Lots of nastiness has happened there as well , look at the siege near Montreal when a council wanted to put a golf course over a native cemetery as an example

[rammypluge]

What if it was now revealed that Sydney harbour is a 'spiritual site'? Or Fraser Island? Or the Great Barrier Reef.

Or, from another perspective, do other religions disallow aborigines from participating in them? 'Sorry, no non christians in christian churches'.

I bet there is an underground church somewhere in the world, and you can walk on top of it. No big deal.

Superstitions hold the world back. Progress dissolves superstitions. We dont let people that believe the world is flat dictate to us.

Allowing fair freedoms to be shut down because of ludicrous fabrications is a destitute road to follow. Empowering zero evidence, irrational beliefs, takes you halfway towards religious fundamentalism, all you are missing is the violence. But then again, Australian Aborigines arent non violent, in some aspects. There goes your front tooth, or some bruises on your wife.

Irrational beliefs are a mess you dont want to empower.

I climbed Ayers as a young teen. I hope to climb it again some day. I was told at the time that going around the base is even better, and i hope to do that too.

[rammypluge]

Order a fake one from China, they already have the prototype:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/11/88.jpg


Plonk it down next to Lake Burley Griffin, gives the ruddy tourists to that place something new to climb on, tell 'em it's the real one, they'll never know.

The old one can go back to being a perching place for blowies and wedgies.Leyland Bros kinda tried that but it didnt work.

[Redback]

What if it was now revealed that Sydney harbour is a 'spiritual site'? Or Fraser Island? Or the Great Barrier Reef.

Or, from another perspective, do other religions disallow aborigines from participating in them? 'Sorry, no non christians in christian churches'.

I bet there is an underground church somewhere in the world, and you can walk on top of it. No big deal.

Superstitions hold the world back. Progress dissolves superstitions. We dont let people that believe the world is flat dictate to us.

Allowing fair freedoms to be shut down because of ludicrous fabrications is a destitute road to follow. Empowering zero evidence, irrational beliefs, takes you halfway towards religious fundamentalism, all you are missing is the violence. But then again, Australian Aborigines arent non violent, in some aspects. There goes your front tooth, or some bruises on your wife.

Irrational beliefs are a mess you dont want to empower.

I climbed Ayers as a young teen. I hope to climb it again some day. I was told at the time that going around the base is even better, and i hope to do that too.

“To know your future you must know your past”

Something you may want to look into in regards to our indigenous Australians.

[bob10]

You have met me , am I alright ? Lots of nastiness has happened there as well , look at the siege near Montreal when a council wanted to put a golf course over a native cemetery as an example

I have had the pleasure. And a good experience it was, but I just can't imagine you back in the cold, cold, winter.

[bob10]

What if it was now revealed that Sydney harbour is a 'spiritual site'? Or Fraser Island? Or the Great Barrier Reef.

. Or, heaven forbid, the XXXX brewery.

[scarry]

What if it was now revealed that Sydney harbour is a 'spiritual site'? Or Fraser Island? Or the Great Barrier Reef.

Or, from another perspective, do other religions disallow aborigines from participating in them? 'Sorry, no non christians in christian churches'.

I bet there is an underground church somewhere in the world, and you can walk on top of it. No big deal.

Superstitions hold the world back. Progress dissolves superstitions. We dont let people that believe the world is flat dictate to us.

Allowing fair freedoms to be shut down because of ludicrous fabrications is a destitute road to follow. Empowering zero evidence, irrational beliefs, takes you halfway towards religious fundamentalism, all you are missing is the violence. But then again, Australian Aborigines arent non violent, in some aspects. There goes your front tooth, or some bruises on your wife.

Irrational beliefs are a mess you dont want to empower.

I climbed Ayers as a young teen. I hope to climb it again some day. I was told at the time that going around the base is even better, and i hope to do that too.

Actually, there are, on Fraser,but nothing has happened so far.

[trout1105]

I can recall some effort was made by the indigenous Mob in Perth regarding the old Swan Brewery site a while back [bigwhistle]

[Fatso]

I can recall some effort was made by the indigenous Mob in Perth regarding the old Swan Brewery site a while back [bigwhistle]

Yeah that was funny , as it turned out to be reclaimed land from the Swan River to build the Brewey on .

[bob10]

Actually, there are, on Fraser,but nothing has happened so far.

That's because the claim was made by Toyota drivers.

[Rob king]

As Pat 303 said, it's there for all Australians. I'm tired of being marginalised and over regulated in my own country. Seems every day I hear some liberty we once had has been amended (read lost). Fine, just don't go. The revenue won't be there and the lease the government is paying for the park will dry up. Talk about killing the goose.......
Rob.

[101RRS]

The National Park remains so that income stream remains - so in reality not much changes.

[Redback]

I have a sneaking suspicion they won't care:spudnikcoinflip:

[Ean Austral]

From all reports in the local rag up here , visitor numbers have been steady or slightly increasing over the last 5 years , the only thing that has declined has been the % of people climbing the rock , so cant really see the revenue changing all that much. I am not sure if its changed since I was last there but if you were driving the great central rd you needed to pay the park entrance fee because you were entering the national park at the NT end , that could have changed in the last few years.

Cheers Ean

[bob10]

From all reports in the local rag up here , visitor numbers have been steady or slightly increasing over the last 5 years , the only thing that has declined has been the % of people climbing the rock , so cant really see the revenue changing all that much. I am not sure if its changed since I was last there but if you were driving the great central rd you needed to pay the park entrance fee because you were entering the national park at the NT end , that could have changed in the last few years.

Cheers Ean

Back in the early 80's when we visited, there was no fee, we camped at the base of the rock. The road in was corrugated dirt, rough as. We didn't see any dingos, [ this was just after the Chamberlain incident] There were however, huge camp dogs roaming around, looked like they would take your arm off, if provoked. We didn't climb, didn't feel the need to. There were a couple of intoxicated indigenous men who touted they would show the secrets of the rock for " a coupla dollars." Turns out they were river dwellers from Alice, no connection to Uluru at all. The river dwellers have been moved on, from all accounts. It's a brand new world., best get used to it. The penalty for climbing the rock will be $60,000/or prison, after the no climb date.

[Bearman]

From all reports in the local rag up here , visitor numbers have been steady or slightly increasing over the last 5 years , the only thing that has declined has been the % of people climbing the rock , so cant really see the revenue changing all that much. I am not sure if its changed since I was last there but if you were driving the great central rd you needed to pay the park entrance fee because you were entering the national park at the NT end , that could have changed in the last few years.

Cheers Ean

I came through from WA last year on that great central road and past the olgas and uluru and didn't have to pay any entrance fee coming from that way but I did notice that the road from the east has been diverted through a gatehouse and have heard that you have to pay going that way Ean.

[Eevo]

. The penalty for climbing the rock will be $60,000/or prison, after the no climb date.
so it is about money.
cant say im suprised.

[bob10]

so it is about money.
cant say im suprised.

Climbing the rock has always been about money. First up the white smarties making heaps from the tourists, and now the indigenous owners taking control. BTW, the fines come from the National Parks mob, not the indigenous mob.

[incisor]

so it is about money.
cant say im suprised.

thats a big assumption...

[Eevo]

Climbing the rock has always been about money. First up the white smarties making heaps from the tourists, and now the indigenous owners taking control. BTW, the fines come from the National Parks mob, not the indigenous mob.



cant have it both way. either the indigenous mob are in chanrge or the nat park mob are.

[bob10]

thats a big assumption...

I believe the assumption is more to create discussion, than sensible conversation.

[Eevo]

I believe the assumption is more to create discussion, than sensible conversation.

thats a big assumption...

[pop058]

so it is about money.
cant say im suprised.

I think the money angle is more a deterrent and not revenue.

[bob10]

cant have it both way. either the indigenous mob are in chanrge or the nat park mob are.


Ok, LAW 101. All Australians are under the same law. If the " indigenous mob " decide to vote to stop climbing, the National Parks are obliged to , by law , to police that decision. The decision was made by a board of Parks and indigenous people.

Uluru climbs banned from October 2019 after unanimous board decision to 'close the playground' - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-01/uluru-climbs-banned-after-unanimous-board-decision/9103512)

How would the ban be enforced?

How would a ban be enforced?

Under Commonwealth laws, there are steep fines for people who ride or walk in a Commonwealth reserve and go off track
The management board could have all walking tracks on the rock removed, making any climb illegal
In practical terms, a chain currently in place could be removed, which would make climbing Uluru physically difficult
Under NT legislation, sacred sites including Uluru have special protections, and a serious breach of the Sacred Sites Act can lead to penalties of more than $60,000 and two years'

[Eevo]

fair enough.

[bob10]

Trying to strike a balance between making money, and respecting culture. Dare I say it, almost a mature approach.

Closing Uluru to climbers is better for tourism in the long run (https://theconversation.com/closing-uluru-to-climbers-is-better-for-tourism-in-the-long-run-86831)

[Chenz]

I was there a few years ago and they said it was too windy to climb. It was dead still. This was their way of stopping people while not saying you can't climb.

[Pickles2]

Trying to strike a balance between making money, and respecting culture. Dare I say it, almost a mature approach.

Closing Uluru to climbers is better for tourism in the long run (https://theconversation.com/closing-uluru-to-climbers-is-better-for-tourism-in-the-long-run-86831)
Hello to my "Mr. Protagonist",....nothing to do with a "mature approach",.....more to do with a "personal opinion", which, whilst it may be different, is one to which we are all entitled.
Pickles.

[bob10]

Hello to my "Mr. Protagonist",....nothing to do with a "mature approach",.....more to do with a "personal opinion", which, whilst it may be different, is one to which we are all entitled.
Pickles.

What on earth are you on about?

[Pickles2]

What on earth are you on about?
Quite happy to discuss Bob,..Do you understand that one person's (your) "mature approach" can be quite different to somebody elses (mine) "personal opinion"?''.....which can be just as "mature", and "personal" as yours.
If you don't comprehend my question/comment, simply ignore it, & don't bother to respond.
I'm sure there are more pressing matters in the World today, but if you do wish to discuss, surely you realize that, in your words, and what YOU consider a personal approach, which is your "Personal Opinion", & to which absolutely you are entitled, can be be completely different to someone elses, equally felt, "Personal Opinion", which is theirs, and to which THEY are also equally absolutely entitled, just as you are.
Pickles.

[bob10]

Quite happy to discuss Bob,..Do you understand that one person's (your) "mature approach" can be quite different to somebody elses (mine) "personal opinion"?''.....which can be just as "mature", and "personal" as yours.
If you don't comprehend my question/comment, simply ignore it, & don't bother to respond.
I'm sure there are more pressing matters in the World today, but if you do wish to discuss, surely you realize that, in your words, and what YOU consider a personal approach, which is your "Personal Opinion", & to which absolutely you are entitled, can be be completely different to someone elses, equally felt, "Personal Opinion", which is theirs, and to which THEY are also equally absolutely entitled, just as you are.
Pickles.

For the first time ever, I have sent a message to the mods. You have lost the plot, mate. That post had nothing to do with you.

[grey_ghost]

Oh my... Who really cares? I can’t see a Land Rover in sight...

[bob10]

Oh my... Who really cares? I can’t see a Land Rover in sight...

That's because they are in another different part of the forum. Why did you open the link about Uluru, expecting to find land rovers? If you like I can direct you to all the land rover talk you want, and excellent talk it is.

[Eevo]

That's because they are in another different part of the forum. Why did you open the link about Uluru, expecting to find land rovers? If you like I can direct you to all the land rover talk you want, and excellent talk it is.


could probably driving a land rover to the top

[bln]

It been a real eye opener reading the posts - its very obvious that there are two opposing views and nothing too much in the middle. After travelling in my LR into many remote areas of Australia I’ve come to love Australia and what we stand for. I love the Australian way of life and how we accept others as cobbers. I have also come to appreciate that the Aborigines have lived here for 60,000 years - the oldest existing civilisation in the world. I’ve learnt and can respect that over 60,000 years they have developed a deep spiritual connection with the land. The land and its water have for 60,000 years provided them with all that they need to survive and from all accounts very comfortably. As we all know the last 200years had been an environmental disaster - Murray Darling Basin is stuffed, the Coorong is now hyper saline, the Great Barrier Reef will be knackered within the next 10 years. You only have to travel through our national parks to see the devastation caused by goats. Poor farming practices are causing dry land salinity. Land clearing is occurring at a devastating rate in Queensland. Big greedy businesses are stealing water from the Darling for their cotton farms. You and I who travel this land don’t benefit from these corporate disasters and our indigenous forefathers are left with their spiritual connections broken or scarred. I for one don’t want to lose such an amazing history and will support any actions or policy that attempts to preserve the indigenous history and their culture before it is too late and we lose that as well.

[bob10]

It been a real eye opener reading the posts - its very obvious that there are two opposing views and nothing too much in the middle. After travelling in my LR into many remote areas of Australia I’ve come to love Australia and what we stand for. I love the Australian way of life and how we accept others as cobbers. I have also come to appreciate that the Aborigines have lived here for 60,000 years - the oldest existing civilisation in the world. I’ve learnt and can respect that over 60,000 years they have developed a deep spiritual connection with the land. The land and its water have for 60,000 years provided them with all that they need to survive and from all accounts very comfortably. As we all know the last 200years had been an environmental disaster - Murray Darling Basin is stuffed, the Coorong is now hyper saline, the Great Barrier Reef will be knackered within the next 10 years. You only have to travel through our national parks to see the devastation caused by goats. Poor farming practices are causing dry land salinity. Land clearing is occurring at a devastating rate in Queensland. Big greedy businesses are stealing water from the Darling for their cotton farms. You and I who travel this land don’t benefit from these corporate disasters and our indigenous forefathers are left with their spiritual connections broken or scarred. I for one don’t want to lose such an amazing history and will support any actions or policy that attempts to preserve the indigenous history and their culture before it is too late and we lose that as well.

Mate, I really, really wish I had said that. Possibly the only " fair dinkum " post.

[grey_ghost]

Or Bob - you could go join a general forum that’s not LR based?

[Pickles2]

For the first time ever, I have sent a message to the mods. You have lost the plot, mate. That post had nothing to do with you.
"Nothing to do with me"?.....all good then,....Me...."Lost the plot"?.....absolutely possible!
Let the discuussion continue, because like I've always said, I'm always up for that, and of course there is asolutely no way that I would expect 100% agreeance with my views, or me with theirs, and thank goodness in this great country of ours, we are lucky to be able to enjoy differing opions, without fear or consequence,...many people, in other Countries, cannot enjoy such freedoms.
Pickles.

[bob10]

"Nothing to do with me"?.....all good then,....Me...."Lost the plot"?.....absolutely possible!
Let the discuussion continue, because like I've always said, I'm always up for that, and of course there is asolutely no way that I would expect 100% agreeance with my views, or me with theirs, and thank goodness in this great country of ours, we are lucky to be able to enjoy differing opions, without fear or consequence,...many people, in other Countries, cannot enjoy such freedoms.
Pickles.

All the AULRO alternative population is out tonight. Is it a full moon?

[bee utey]

Oh my... Who really cares? I can’t see a Land Rover in sight...

What is it with people who can't resist picking at a pimple until it bleeds? Don't click, don't need to comment on what doesn't interest you, don't need to tell a fellow Land Rover owner what they are and aren't allowed to talk about in "General Chat".

Anyway, 'cos I'm basically a nice guy I've worked especially hard to find an authentic picture of the Blessed Rock and a Land Rover, both at the same time. Enjoy! [smilebigeye]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/11/202.jpg

[bee utey]

All the AULRO alternative population is out tonight. Is it a full moon?

Late night shopping, they'll be here soon with a slab to lubricate their thoughts. [bawl]

[trout1105]

Love the old image and appreciate your comments Mate, Well done [thumbsupbig]

[grey_ghost]

What is it with people who can't resist picking at a pimple until it bleeds? Don't click, don't need to comment on what doesn't interest you, don't need to tell a fellow Land Rover owner what they are and aren't allowed to talk about in "General Chat".

Anyway, 'cos I'm basically a nice guy I've worked especially hard to find an authentic picture of the Blessed Rock and a Land Rover, both at the same time. Enjoy! [smilebigeye]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/11/202.jpg

[emoji476][emoji897][emoji1303][emoji12]

[rangieman]

could probably driving a land rover to the top
This will get the purist`s and the precious ones going[tonguewink]
I have heard and seen pic`s (could have been super8 film) of a series driven by a certain well known Victorian LROC member driving part way up the rock in the early 60`s[bigwhistle]

Not that im saying it is right or wrong but there was nothing wrong with that pic or actions for years and years until very recently.



And of course i could be making this up as no names will be mentioned[wink11]

[Saitch]

Somewhere in my dodgy memories I recall an old mate telling how, years ago, he enjoyed lunch parked on top of the rock in an RAAF Iroquois. Tut, tut

[weeds]

Somewhere in my dodgy memories I recall an old mate telling how, years ago, he enjoyed lunch parked on top of the rock in an RAAF Iroquois. Tut, tut

And here I was thinking I was the only one that pushed boundaries in the defense force.

Apparently Supporting a range shoot......well the RAAF regularly conduct fly overs along Teewah Beach.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/11/222.jpg

[bee utey]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/11/223.jpg

[CraigE]

I would hardly say survived comfortably, survived yes. Drought and famine have nearly wiped them out completely at various times throughout history. The mortality rates were huge. Have also heard this first hand from a WA Western Desert elder. When the area was being cleared for the rocket tests in the 50s, they had had 2 years of drought and more than 50% (figures may be much higher) had been wiped out and many more malnourished. He is quite open that at that time the best thing to happen was the white man making contact and providing, food and jobs. This is directly from a Martu elder who was actually the little boy holding his mothers hand in the film Contact (Australian film not Jodie Foster film).


It been a real eye opener reading the posts - its very obvious that there are two opposing views and nothing too much in the middle. After travelling in my LR into many remote areas of Australia I’ve come to love Australia and what we stand for. I love the Australian way of life and how we accept others as cobbers. I have also come to appreciate that the Aborigines have lived here for 60,000 years - the oldest existing civilisation in the world. I’ve learnt and can respect that over 60,000 years they have developed a deep spiritual connection with the land. The land and its water have for 60,000 years provided them with all that they need to survive and from all accounts very comfortably. As we all know the last 200years had been an environmental disaster - Murray Darling Basin is stuffed, the Coorong is now hyper saline, the Great Barrier Reef will be knackered within the next 10 years. You only have to travel through our national parks to see the devastation caused by goats. Poor farming practices are causing dry land salinity. Land clearing is occurring at a devastating rate in Queensland. Big greedy businesses are stealing water from the Darling for their cotton farms. You and I who travel this land don’t benefit from these corporate disasters and our indigenous forefathers are left with their spiritual connections broken or scarred. I for one don’t want to lose such an amazing history and will support any actions or policy that attempts to preserve the indigenous history and their culture before it is too late and we lose that as well.

[101RRS]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/11/222.jpg

Why is that Perentie flying the German National Flag?

Garry

[weeds]

Why is that Perentie flying the German National Flag?

Garry

We, I don’t think it’s the German flag, but it is the same colour as another European country.

It’s the RAEME Corps Flag, Royal Australian Electrical & Mechanical Engineers......kinda matches the GMV that it’s attached to.

[bee utey]

Why is that Perentie flying the German National Flag?

Garry

AFAIK it's not, this one is the regular German flag:

132006

[bln]

Yes desert life was tough but most of the aboriginals lived in coastal areas. Arnhem Land was and still is an oasis and the South East of SA used to be a large wetland area full of wild life before the land was drained for farming.

[manic]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/11/223.jpgHa, did you see those 'oppertunists' on top of sydney opera house the other day. According to the news it was almost terrorism! Perhaps the opera house is more sacred than Uluru.

[CraigE]

We, I don’t think it’s the German flag, but it is the same colour as another European country.

It’s the RAEME Corps Flag, Royal Australian Electrical & Mechanical Engineers......kinda matches the GMV that it’s attached to.

No the top is blue Its the Adelaide Crows Flag

[fitzy]

Breaking news
The wearing of jumpers over the shoulder will be banned by 2018https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/11/235.jpg
A bounty is being placed of$10 per skin, hopefully this will be enough to stop such irrational behaviour.
If this pilot program is successful it will be implemented in the fight to eradicate another pest the cyclist.

[trog]

Get rid of the cyclist ? They are your friend , one less vehicle on the road. Get a bounty on the foodaroo scoot . Slower than a stoned granny in a Zimmer frame and fixated on their gps. Same goes for uber pilots, lost and befuddled road obstacles.

[fitzy]

Foodaroo scoot?

[trog]

Obviously never been stuck behind one in lunch time traffic

[fitzy]

Come now , you’re just making this up.

[trog]

No , I think not
These are slower than a snail on sand paper and seemingly road legal