Roof mounted spotties(again)

[crump]

I am going to get my roof spots wired up soon, (by someone else as I am a knob) and have read on the site that you have to move them around on the roof to stop glare in mirrors etc when you are lining them up. Thats no prob as their on a Rhino bar, but when the Leccy is wiring them up , will I have to leave a fair bit of slack in the wiring to allow for this?At present the bar is at the very front of the gutter, what is the general opinion, they have to go back to stop the problem or the further forward the better?Pic of set up below, TIA.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2006/02/73.jpg

[kie4]

HI The problem you get with roof mounted spots is that the light reflects off the bonnet and you cant see where your going, best thing to do is leave enough wire to allow for adjustment both ways. depending on the spots you have, after adjustment you can loose the excess wire in the back of the spot.

[drivesafe]

Hi crump, unless you can move them back about 30 to 40 cm ( it doesn’t look like they can be moved that far back) you won’t have to worry about lighting up you mirrors but it may pay you to fit some sort of a deflector on the bottom edge of the lights so you won’t light up your bonnet as kie4 pointed out. Trust me, you are just about wasting your time using them if they light up your bonnet.

BTW, are you paying an auto elec to do the work because it is a pretty straight forward job if you want to do it yourself. :idea:

If you can move the lights back, I’ll post a simple routine to get your lights set up to avoid lighting up your bonnet and mirrors. :idea:

Cheers.

[crump]

Yep, the whole thing is adjustable except for the backwards movement, only about a foot before the lights hit the roof.The narvas have a deflector in em, so now their upside down, should do the same thing.
Thought about doin it myself, had a squiz at your stuff in projects, but my front spots are on an isolator switch, and I want the roof ones to have a seperate isolator, but once that is switched on they ALL operate off the high beam. If you can post a way of doing that (that I can understand), would be muchly appreciated.

[drivesafe]

As you already have the other switch in place, most of the hard work of tracking down the vehicle’s wiring is done.

By the sounds of it, all you have to do to wire in the new switch is link one wire off the old switch to the same position on the new switch and then run a wire from the new switch, out into the engine bay, to the new relays you will need to operate the roof lights.

The rest of the wiring will be fairly straight forward.

Before you do anything, if you haven’t already done so, get a quote from an auto electrician to do the job, including supplying wire and parts and then see if there is going to be any great saving if you do it yourself.

I think you will find you can save quite a bit of money and taking your time, you will probably do a better job as it is your own vehicle.

Cheers

[CraigE]

Crump,
What bracketing system did you use to mount the spotties to the bar. I am contemplating something similar.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

[Tusker]

Have a look at some of the outback challenge videos, or similar. Quite often they have the light bar about half way down the roof so the lights reflect off thye roof & not the bonnet. Not easy with a roof rack :-(

And the defender has that dipping roof line at the front too..

Why do you want lights up there? When do you envisage using them?

Regards
Max P

[drivesafe]

The actual size of the largest driving light governs how far back along the roof the lights have to go to ( in crumps case ) clear the bull bar.

If they are moved backwards then the same goes for how far in towards the centre they have to be to clear the mirrors.

But you can leave them up the front as they are, they are far enough forward to have no effect on your mirrors and as I posted above simple fit deflectors on the bottom edge of the lights.

This is a practice the has been used on locomotives for many years, where the loco had a low nose in front of the cab and the headlights were mounted in the front of the roof above the cab.
They just fitted a short scoop shaped deflector on the bottom edge of each headlight to stop light hitting the nose area.

Simple but effective and in crump’s case, a hell of a lot easier.

Cheers

[abaddonxi]

Originally posted by Tusker


Why do you want lights up there? When do you envisage using them?

Regards
Max P

Looks like there isn't room anywhere else for them.


Umm, a couple of things.

What pattern are the beams on these lights?

This is going to make a huge difference to how much flare you are going to get from them. If they are spotlights with a spotlight lens then the beam is going to be narrow from the lens and widen slowly to a certain point. So, the lamp is designed to not throw light all over the place from the lamp head, so you shouldn't have too much trouble with light falling on the bonnet and reflecting back at you - flare.

If the lamps are flood lensed then the beam should be wide from the lamp head and are going to throw light all over the place and cause all kinds of flare problems.

I'm guessing then that you'd want to have your spotlights on the roof and your floodlights on the bar.

I would have thought that if you bought them new they would have come with all of that info on a sheet with a picture and angles of beam spread and all kinds of irritating stuff.

So then all you need to do is calculate the angle of your lamps from horizontal, the height of lamps and bonnet, add in the beams spread in degrees and you should see exactly where the light will fall.

Won't that be fun. https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

hth

Cheers
Simon






What d'you mean nobody loves a smartarse? https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

[cewilson]

Originally posted by Tusker
Why do you want lights up there? When do you envisage using them?

Regards
Max P


I used to say and ask the same thing Max. After the Simpson trip though, I found a real good reason to have them. Coming into Mt Dare, the water was above the bonnet, and as it was around 11pm at night, my missus was really happy about shining the torch out of the window so I could see where I was going! https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

Got there eventually, but decided then and there tht lights on the roof actually had a purpose other than the "****" factor I thought! https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

Also found that with lights on the roof, it's very handy when four wheeling late at night, as it tends to light up the areas normally not done!!!

[crump]

Drivesafe:Thanks for the info, the second switch was the main thing I couldnt work out.I can get all the gear from work to do the job for free https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ just lack the knowhow(but I gota start somewhere). Havnt got a quote, but as it will take me a tank of fuel to get to a leccy, I will save doing it myself, will give it a shot.

CraigE: Its a heavy duty Rhino Bar with Rhinos own Work light brackets held on by 2 T-bolts each, make sure you get the steel brackets not the alloy aerial ones.

Tusker:I do a lot of night driving, the more light the more I like it.

Abaddonxi:Thanks for the info, I own a Protractor. https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ The Lightforces are spots and the Narvas are spreads I have moved the Narvas to the outside since the pic and intend angling them to iluminate the roadside immediately in front and to the side, so they will be shining out into the paddock in a sense, the LFs will be concentrated into the centre of the vehicle path out about 20-30 metres and the 240s will do the rest, thats the theory anyway.

[VladTepes]

I am also looking at doing a removeable light bar for the roof (like Drivesafe has). The idea being that I will be able to swap it between my two vehicles saving some money on lights, but also because the RR doesn't have a bullbar and therefore nowhere to mount lights.

I had envisaged 4 lightforce lights across the roof bar whci I can then use either clear or spread filters on as required. The mirror thing will need careful consideration though as I was going to angle the outer two slightly to get good breadth of flood coverage.

On that - was thinking of LF140's (75W) as opposed to LF 170's (100W) as less current draw on the alternator would be useful I reckon. Plus keeps the roof look lower profile and probably looks better. Any comments on this idea or would I be better going for the 170's :?: Total cost difference is only about $100 I think.


Drivesafe you did say, I think, that you were going to put this up as a project when you get the chance.

[drivesafe]

Hi Vlad, I was waiting for some new relays to come in, these will make the job easier and quicker.

They have arrived and I have a roof mounting bar, cut, drilled and painted.

Just got to get the time to do the wiring and take lots of pics.

Cheers and sorry for the delay but work has gone mad.

[Scouse]

Originally posted by drivesafe
Hi Vlad, I was waiting for some new relays to come in, these will make the job easier and quicker.

[<span style="color:red">thread hijack</span>
Drivesafe, on the subject of relays:

I'm thinking of putting 4 lights on my roof rack & was going to run 2 relays.
I've seen these relays advertised by Jaycar:

Solid State Relay 3-32VDC Input 100A@30VDC Switching

Switching high current DC loads normally requires use of a contactor to avoid arcing as the contacts try to separate. This solid state relay uses MOSFET technology to provide an economical and reliable method of switching medium to high power DC loads. By electrical switching with a semiconductor, there is no arcing as contacts break at high current and the low on-state resistance provides a viable alternative to the bulky and expensive contactors we used to use.

Output Circuit
Load Voltage: 0-30VDC
Load Current: 0.02-100A
Max On-State Resistance: 0.007Ohms
Max On-State Voltage Drop: 0.35V
Max Turn On Time: 0.5ms
Max Turn Off Time: 0.5ms
Max Surge Current: 240A (10ms)

Input Circuit
Control Voltage: 3-32VDC
Control Current: 28mA max.
Min Turn Off Voltage: 1.0VDC
Input Resistance: 1.2kOhm
QTY
1+ $39.95
10+ $35.90
25+ $31.90

http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/6524/product92403tj.jpg
What's your impression of these ?

[<span style="color:red">end thread hijack</span>

[DEFENDERZOOK]

<span style="color:blue">hey scouse.....
did you guys ever deal with jaguars...?



they had some mega heavy duty relays fitted which were removed on pre delivery....
they were called transit relays....

see if there are any still floating around in any of the mechanics toolboxes.....</span>

[Scouse]

[quote=DEFENDERZOOK]<span style="color:blue">hey scouse.....
did you guys ever deal with jaguars...?



they had some mega heavy duty relays fitted which were removed on pre delivery....
they were called transit relays....

see if there are any still floating around in any of the mechanics toolboxes.....</span>D3s come with them now (and RR & Sport).
I'll have to check them out.
I do have some Jag ones........somewhere.

[DEFENDERZOOK]

Originally posted by crump
I am going to get my roof spots wired up soon, (by someone else as I am a knob)



<span style="color:blue">hey knob......


if you follow the simple wiring instructions...you should be able to fit them yourself pretty easily....

also....the more work you do yourself the better you understand how your vehicle works.....
and the easier to get going again if anything should happen to go wrong in the middle
of nowhere.....


the hardest part of installing lights isnt the wiring up.....
its the actual task of mounting them...... and running the wiring through the vehicle
to them......
where to connect the actual wires and soldering and insulating is the easy part....</span>

[Scouse]

Originally posted by DEFENDERZOOK


hey knob......


Oh, I thought I was on AULRO, not Overlander :wink: .

I'll have to log off & get back onto the right site.

[DEFENDERZOOK]

[quote=DEFENDERZOOK]<span style="color:blue">hey scouse.....
did you guys ever deal with jaguars...?



they had some mega heavy duty relays fitted which were removed on pre delivery....
they were called transit relays....

see if there are any still floating around in any of the mechanics toolboxes.....</span>D3s come with them now (and RR & Sport).
I'll have to check them out.
I do have some Jag ones........somewhere.


<span style="color:blue">do you know if they are the same as the jag ones....
they had some brown terminated 8guage wires coming off them.....

they were heavy duty.....if you use one of these per pair of spotties it would still be overkill......

well...thats what me thinks.....</span>

[crump]

Originally posted by Scouse+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Scouse)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-DEFENDERZOOK


hey knob......


Oh, I thought I was on AULRO, not Overlander :wink: .

I'll have to log off & get back onto the right site.[/b][/quote]

Might have to change my user name. 8O

[drivesafe]

Hi Scouse, I experimented with MOSFETs years ago and there are a number of problems that have to be taken into account.

Cost is the first problem, relays work out much cheaper and are more reliable in the harsh environment of automotive use.


They are still susceptible to dead shorts and so need to be protected. The problem is that a fuse or circuit breaker will not go open circuit quick enough to give adequate protection.

With 12 volt lights, the slightest drop in voltage is going to reduce the light output and the .35 voltage drop across the FETs is really unacceptably high.

As I stated above, I was waiting for some relays to come in. I will be carrying these as a new line.

These new relays ( I don’t have them on my web site yet ) are dual 30 amp out type, perfect for headlight and driving light applications.

They have separate input switching for each output and each output is protected by a 30 amp blade fuse. They are set up so they can be positive or negative switched with positive load outputs

I will be selling them for $15-00 which works out to $13-50 for AULRO formites.

They work out cheaper than buying relays, fuse holders and fuses and are quicker and easier to fit.

There are others out there like these but up until now I could not source them at the right price.

Anyway, sales pitch over and cheers

[Scouse]

Thanks for the tip, Drivesafe.
I won't bother with the MOSFETs. I have plenty of normal 30/40A relays so I'll just use those.

[drivesafe]

Definitely the way to go Scouse :wink:

[crump]

havnt got back to this til now, just to get this straight in my head, can I run one power wire(30amp) for all four lights and just solder all the power wires from the lights into it, and then do the same with the earth?Or do i need to make a seperate power/earth harness for each light?Also the local mechanic :roll: gave me a 4way relay, 2pos and 1 neg each side, is that what I need? Like I said, knob. https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

[drivesafe]

Hi crump, in a word NO.

Sorry to be so short but I’m just about to go out so I’ll have to give you a better answer later but you will be well and truly overloading the set up if you try that.

Cheers

[crump]

I'll await your reply, thanks. :wink:

[drivesafe]

Hi again crump, the total current required to power four 100 watt driving lights is 30 to 32 amps ( 7.5 to 8 amps per globe ) and 130 watt globes would pull about 40 amps.

Trying to run that sort of current through such small wire means you will end up with your lights being dull and very yellow.

The 30 amp rating of the cable in the old days related to the amount of current the cable can handle with an expectable amount of loss over 1 yard ( metre ), this loss increases dramatically with every additional metre, to day every body uses the resistance of the cable based on the square of the copper of the cable multiplied by the length of the cable and so. Basically they are just making a simple job harder.

For large current devices ( headlights or driving lights, fridges, inverters and so ) I try to run cable at least 3 x the current that is going to be run through it.

There are a number of advantages when doing this but with lights the main one is that there is a much smaller voltage drop which will result in brighter lights.

I’m powering four 55 watt globes, which is about 16 amps total, so I am running two separate 5mm automotive cables to power two globes off each cable and two 5mm earth cables.

There is a lot more to it but this willgive you an idea.

Cheers and any more questions, just ask away.

[crump]

Ok, I have been listening, none of the lights are 100w, 2 @75w and 2@55, total 260w, so approx 20 amps draw in total.I have also down graded headlights with Phillips crystal vision 55w to lower some draw overall on the alternator. SO, i should end up with 2 power and 2 earth coming off the roof, then whats the next step? :idea: :?:

[drivesafe]

Good afternoon crump, next thing is to source the power needed to switch the relays, you need to find your high beam wire, and it is usually easier to do this under the bonnet and run the wire back into the cab when you run the wires from the relays.

You need to mount a switch in the dash or some where convenient, to control the operation of the driving lights.

This should keep you busy for a while.

A word of caution, crump, I think you are working on a fender and it may not have safety air bags but if anybody else is thinking of following this thread and installing driving lights.

<span style="color:red"><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%">DO NOT USE A TEST LIGHT</span></span>

<span style="color:orange">DO NOT USE A TEST LIGHT to locate wires on any vehicle fitted with air bags as the test light can cause the air bags to trigger and in the USA there have been a number of deaths caused by accidental triggering of air bags</span>

[crump]

so can i use crimp connectors thruout, or should I solder all connections?

[crump]

and one more thing, can i tap into the Hi Beam wire that has already been used for the Bbar mounted spots or should I connect to the other side as to not overload that side of the harness?TIA

[drivesafe]

Crimp terminals are fine, I use them everywhere.

If they are the insulated type, I just crimp them but if they are the bare metal type then I crimp them and then solder them but each to his own.

The wire used for your other lights is perfect and there will be no load problems as the total current requirement needed to power two relays is going to be somewhere between 200 ma and 400 ma depending on the brand of relay used ( That’s .2 to .4 amps )