How mount thicker intercooler?

[Finnius]

Is anyone here running an an uprated intercooler for a 300TDi Disco?

I see a lot for sale on the internet that are 90mm and even thicker.

They are designed to go next to the radiator (not front mount) but I don't see how they would fit in the mounting bracket? [bighmmm]

I see Allisport makes a nice intercooler which looks the same size as the original but has more surface area. But they are expensive! A lot of the cheap ones are just plain thicker cores...

Thanks!

[AK83]

Is anyone here running an an uprated intercooler for a 300TDi Disco?

I see a lot for sale on the internet that are 90mm and even thicker.

.... A lot of the cheap ones are just plain thicker cores...

Thanks!

I got one.
Not fitted yet.
No time(sometimes)
and too lazy(usually :p)

I've sized it up tho, and I reckon there's a 99.9% likelyhood you'd have to grind off(or some of) the LHD steering box bracket on top if the chassis rail. You can't easily see this bracket, but it's directly under the intercooler bottom hose and clamp(where it fits on to the intercooler).

Then you have to mod the rad/cooler frame so that the larger intercooler fits within the frame folds. The non tapered header tanks don't fit within some sections of the folder frame surrounds.
So what I also did was to get an aluminium frame to boot. Aluminium is not only lighter, but much more malleable to rejig it to fit as needed. (the original frame is steel).
I mangled the frame to suit the 'ebay' 90mm fat header I/C shape and it fits, but now it's a matter of rejiggering it a lot to make the radiator fit snugly too.
It's a bit of messing about, but being aluminium, it's easy to do with tools you probably have to hand(ie. mallet/sledge hammer ;))

Allisport have a 90mm thick I/C for sale too, and what I see in their images of it, the header tanks are tapered towards the most extreme ends of the header tanks, and I reckon they'd be a direct fit, without any need to mangle the rad/IC frame in any way.

(I think)I'm going to give up on making the Al frame fit both rad and I/C together properly, so my new plan is going to be to order the thicker aluminium frame from Allisport that fits the 90mm I/C better.

The way I'm seeing it at the moment is:
if you don't want to muck about too much get the allisport gear. lots of $, but I'm thinking more of a straight fit.
If you do opt for the much cheaper ebay 90mm I/C, also get an aluminium frame, as they're going to be a lot easier to hack and bash to make the I/C fit easily ..
But!.,. I still think that either way of those two options, that unused LHD steering box bracket on the left chassis rail may still need some grinding(and painting) to make sure you don't have interference issues.

hope this stage in my attempt helps your decision.

[Finnius]

Thanks for your input!

Yeah i figured with the ebay 90mm ones that it would hit the little bracket at the bottom of the radiator fram that holds the bottom of the fan shroud in place...
I am keen to retain the fan shroud - are you planning on keeping the shroud?

If i was a millionaire i would get the Allisport alumium frame, uprated intercooler and uprated radiator in one hit and be done with it. [biggrin]

[Finnius]

There is also some intercoolers that are the factory ~60mm thick but use bar and plate instead of tube and fin...

I guess the uprated Allisport one that they say has 50% more surface area is probably bar and plate...

[BathurstTom]

I have the Allisport uprated IC, but it is designed to fit. Great investment.

Tom.

[AK83]

Thanks for your input!

Yeah i figured with the ebay 90mm ones that it would hit the little bracket at the bottom of the radiator fram that holds the bottom of the fan shroud in place...
I am keen to retain the fan shroud - are you planning on keeping the shroud?

If i was a millionaire i would get the Allisport alumium frame, uprated intercooler and uprated radiator in one hit and be done with it. [biggrin]

Yeah, if money was no object .. go for all the expensive goodies.
But by the same token, I will spend more on some stuff, as long as I'm fairly sure that that added expense will come back to me in terms of longevity.
That is, spending $500 for the 'same' item that you can get from ebay for $250 .. the $500 has to last 2x or more as long.

At the moment, I'm not using the fan shroud, as I broke it.
Was doing the harmonic balancer, took it off and put it aside. Gust of wind blew it over(standing upright leaning on fence) and I then stepped on it forgetting it was flat on the ground! It's only a clean crack and I could easily put it back in and use (say) duct tape on the crack .. I wanted to fix it properly before putting back in.
But in saying that, since having taken it off and not putting it back on again, car does seem to run a bit cooler than previously .. mainly with A/C on! :confused:
With A/C on on a 30°-ish day, 300 tdi would run at about 87-92° .. but now doesn't move past it's 83-85 standard running range.

The other thing I wanted to do at the same time as the 90mm I/C was to clean out the inlet manifold AND plumb in a provent type catch can so that it doesn't oil up(as much) again in the future.

[Finnius]

About the fan shroud - does anyone else have any experiences with it running cooler with it off?

In theory, when the vehicle is stationary the fan wouldn't suck as much air through the radiators without the shroud directing the suction....
However when the vehicle is moving the shroud may not allow as much air to free flow through...

I am pretty sure the fan is really only for when he vehicle is stationary anyway - As on the highway the air rushing through is way more than the fan could ever provide?

[AK83]

....

I am pretty sure the fan is really only for when he vehicle is stationary anyway ...

and slogging through hard stuff. Increased engine load, but not much forward movement .. obviously the fan will be working double overtime.

Only recently I was also running my 300 Tdi without the fan (as well as the shroud).
Around town barely any noticeable difference in engine temp, maybe a degree or two at most.
But ambient temps were in the low 20's.
Strange thing was that warm up time was about exactly the same time/distance.
I have a set route that I use for getting about in my area and watch the temp gauge like a hawk on this route.
It gets to about 55°C in about 5-10 mins where I hit my first major stoppage. 4 stops up to this point but they're usually less than a min at each.
Without fan, on some occasions I had only got to about 53 or so, but about 55 was the norm too.
Then following a tram route(which is painfully slow) and lots of hold ups I hadn't seen over 85°C to the final point in that route without fan. 83° with fan.

On my regular freeway run to work which averages about 60-80 k/h in heavy traffic .. zero difference in temp.(as you'd expect).

Today pretty mild day on my freeway run to and back from work, temps are just a smidge lower than my normal 83.
It peaked at 82, and settled at 80 on the way to work in the morning(10° ambient) .. and on the way back it peaked and settled at 81.
My thinking for this at the moment is that a new water pump fitted yesterday could be helping a little.

A couple of days back went for a quick run out to a mini desert and back, and when I got home I noticed harmonic balancer was wobbly which had taken out the water pump and alternator.
Water pump had a constant leak from the weep hole(otherwise fine), and alt pulley had sheared and the pulley was basically doing nothing other than flop around wildly as the engine was running(all sorted now).
So the only difference for todays run as the new water pump and obviously coolant bleed. I use the same bleed sequence now(that I've found the great info on the easy way from this site), so I'm thinking at the moment the new water pump may be helping a little bit more.

With the fan shroud tho, as we're coming into the warmer weather I'm going to see how it goes before committing to refit it.

[Finnius]

Thanks for all the info based on your experience.

I wonder why people say that the the 300TDi has an overheating problem?

From what you say it doesn't sound like they are prone to overheating - perhaps even the opposite (if you have driven around with no fan with no obvious consequences!)

[Morry948]

So what are the recommended running temps and time periods ?

Short burst at high temps shouldnt be a problem

I would be far more worried about around town hot day temps, than 40* highway temps.

Driving around town does not give you the airflow needed

My older days of driving troop carriers would see them get hotter running around town in summer ( 40-45* days ) than sitting on 100Km @40+.

Interesting to note that in the middle of summer, once you got above about 110-115 the aircon stopped working ( and sorry to say, but Landcruiser Aircon is pretty F&^% good...could pull a Troopy to drivable on a 45* day in about 5 mins from being parked all day )and the engine temp went up. Put down to the fact the engine was working much harder at 120Kph in the heat

We basically just sat on 100 in the heat, everything worked better.

Sometime its better to drop a few Kph

[AK83]

Thanks for all the info based on your experience.

I wonder why people say that the the 300TDi has an overheating problem?

From what you say it doesn't sound like they are prone to overheating - perhaps even the opposite (if you have driven around with no fan with no obvious consequences!)

Ah! I haven't explained tho that with the A/C on even in mild 30°C ambient temps, I've had over 100°C coolant temps(of course the dash gauge doesn't move).
I remember at about roughly 103 or 105° the dash gauge starts to climb, and reached the start of the red zone.

Other times I've had 'heating up' has been self inflicted in some way. And it's always the coolant bleeding process that I used to bugger up(or something).
But that makes sense.

With A/C off even in 40°C hot conditions I reckon(from memory) max coolant temp I've noted has been in the high 80's(87 or 88 or so), but always on a run. Slower running always sees my coolant temp drop

We had a few days in the low 30's about a month or so ago so I turned the A/C on just to see if the coolant would rise to some of the high temps I've noted previously, but have yet to see it at all.
The two differences between last summer and a month ago is that I haven't had the fan shroud on for a couple of months .. so I'm making my comments on that basis at the moment.
The other thing I have done was replace the thermostat. In the end was needlessly too tho.
I broke the 3 way bleeder thing between rad-coolant bottle and thermostat housing so I replaced it temporarily with a T piece to keep me mobile.
Since that temp job, I had a lot of trouble with the engine getting warm at all! .. as in 60°C temp. Turns out that bleed thing is needed for quicker warm up times(thanks to info from AULRO of course [thumbsupbig])
Anyhow, I changed my thermostat thinking it was stuck open.
Went from Waxstat brand to Tridon.
A major massive difference in the way they both operate tho. I popped both of them(and the cooler temp Tridon I also got) in boiling water.
The Waxstat thermo barely opens up(that is the flow through) whereas the Tridon opens up much more(ie. much more flow through). The difference between them is huge. Obviously the cooler running thermo opens up earlier but both the Tridons open to the same gap between valve and body. I'd estimate about 5-10mm gap .. whereas the Waxstat thermo only opens a mm or two.

FWIW too tho, I rarely use the A/C unless I'm sitting in heavy traffic and it's stifling, or on some dusty roads. Done that a few times last summer.
In slow crawl traffic, coolant never rises above high 80s, so the higher temps I've seen with the A/C on have always been on a run(ie. 80-100k/h or on some slow windy uphill dusty roads)

The over 100°C temp I panicked about was on a camp trip, car loaded heavily kids in car, car struggling up some of the hills. On the down slope it would cool down to the low 90's.
So I managed the A/C on this drive as I cottoned on to what was happening.
On the uphills sections I'd switch AC off (roughly) half way up to give the coolant a chance to not overheat, then leave the AC on as we crested for the downhills and level sections.

We have some 30 or so degree days coming up early next week here, so I'm keen to do more testing with it .. more than anything else .. to see if this fan shroud is actually helping with cooling at speed.

They say Friday is going to be warm again too(high 20's or so) and I usually take kids to school. It's all stop start driving along this tram infested road.
I'll remove fan again and double/triple check temps along the half hour each way drive .. and reply back again.

ps. I didn't remove my fan for cooling testing .. I was having trouble with the harmonic balancer and fan belt so trying to diagnose balance, level running and noises. Just happened that I also noticed my temps running normal with it off.
I always run the engine with the fan on .. habit I guess.

[Finnius]

Hey Arthur, are all your temperature observations from a coolant temp gauge or one of those fancy gauges that has a sensor bolted to the head?

Whilst we are on the topic of intercoolers... Does anyone know the purpose of the rubber wrapping on the metal turbo pipe from the turbo to the bottom of the intercooler (the pipe between the elbow and the straight coupling)? Is it purely insulation? Wouldn't the rubber just soak up the heat from the close proximity exhaust anyway?

[AK83]

Hey Arthur, are all your temperature observations from a coolant temp gauge or one of those fancy gauges that has a sensor bolted to the head?

Whilst we are on the topic of intercoolers... Does anyone know the purpose of the rubber wrapping on the metal turbo pipe from the turbo to the bottom of the intercooler (the pipe between the elbow and the straight coupling)? Is it purely insulation? Wouldn't the rubber just soak up the heat from the close proximity exhaust anyway?

My temp values are from a coolant sensor(VDO) connected to the thermostat bleeder nut. Temp range between 50-150°C(so I can't get any reading below 50°C).
I thought about getting a head bolt type sensor as an additional point to read from, but I checked the temp of the head at various points and it gets hotspots.
Up at the front I generally see the same mid 80's readings, thermostat housing itself reads identically to the sensor readings, and there are various hotter(5-10°C hotter) spots along the side of the head too.
The temperature estimates I've been quoting tho are from logged data. (my gauge system does data logging)

I've also been curious as to why the rubber on the turbo pipe?

[Finnius]

Yeah i asked about the rubber on the turbo pipe, as mine is kind of ripped in places and was wondering if i could just cut it off and then buff the tube with a metal polisher!

[Fausto79]

Yeah i asked about the rubber on the turbo pipe, as mine is kind of ripped in places and was wondering if i could just cut it off and then buff the tube with a metal polisher!

not 100% but i would assume that the rubber cover on that pipe is to stop or insulate from radiant heat transfer from hot exhaust and turbo. otherwise you might pump hot air into you intake system.

i wanted to replace that pipe work in aluminium with heat sinks on it and have a heat shield on the exhaust side of it. then put some kind of bonnet cut out (louvre) to get cool airflow though there. probably for little gain but gives me a project.

[Finnius]

Yeah a bonnet scoop over the exhaust side of the engine would be good. At highway speed, cool air would rush in and push the hot air out the bottom...

Wouldn't the rubber wrapping of that pipe just heat anyway though?

[Fausto79]

Ah! I haven't explained tho that with the A/C on even in mild 30°C ambient temps, I've had over 100°C coolant temps(of course the dash gauge doesn't move).
I remember at about roughly 103 or 105° the dash gauge starts to climb, and reached the start of the red zone.

Other times I've had 'heating up' has been self inflicted in some way. And it's always the coolant bleeding process that I used to bugger up(or something).
But that makes sense.

With A/C off even in 40°C hot conditions I reckon(from memory) max coolant temp I've noted has been in the high 80's(87 or 88 or so), but always on a run. Slower running always sees my coolant temp drop

We had a few days in the low 30's about a month or so ago so I turned the A/C on just to see if the coolant would rise to some of the high temps I've noted previously, but have yet to see it at all.
The two differences between last summer and a month ago is that I haven't had the fan shroud on for a couple of months .. so I'm making my comments on that basis at the moment.
The other thing I have done was replace the thermostat. In the end was needlessly too tho.
I broke the 3 way bleeder thing between rad-coolant bottle and thermostat housing so I replaced it temporarily with a T piece to keep me mobile.
Since that temp job, I had a lot of trouble with the engine getting warm at all! .. as in 60°C temp. Turns out that bleed thing is needed for quicker warm up times(thanks to info from AULRO of course [thumbsupbig])
Anyhow, I changed my thermostat thinking it was stuck open.
Went from Waxstat brand to Tridon.
A major massive difference in the way they both operate tho. I popped both of them(and the cooler temp Tridon I also got) in boiling water.
The Waxstat thermo barely opens up(that is the flow through) whereas the Tridon opens up much more(ie. much more flow through). The difference between them is huge. Obviously the cooler running thermo opens up earlier but both the Tridons open to the same gap between valve and body. I'd estimate about 5-10mm gap .. whereas the Waxstat thermo only opens a mm or two.

FWIW too tho, I rarely use the A/C unless I'm sitting in heavy traffic and it's stifling, or on some dusty roads. Done that a few times last summer.
In slow crawl traffic, coolant never rises above high 80s, so the higher temps I've seen with the A/C on have always been on a run(ie. 80-100k/h or on some slow windy uphill dusty roads)

The over 100°C temp I panicked about was on a camp trip, car loaded heavily kids in car, car struggling up some of the hills. On the down slope it would cool down to the low 90's.
So I managed the A/C on this drive as I cottoned on to what was happening.
On the uphills sections I'd switch AC off (roughly) half way up to give the coolant a chance to not overheat, then leave the AC on as we crested for the downhills and level sections.

We have some 30 or so degree days coming up early next week here, so I'm keen to do more testing with it .. more than anything else .. to see if this fan shroud is actually helping with cooling at speed.

They say Friday is going to be warm again too(high 20's or so) and I usually take kids to school. It's all stop start driving along this tram infested road.
I'll remove fan again and double/triple check temps along the half hour each way drive .. and reply back again.

ps. I didn't remove my fan for cooling testing .. I was having trouble with the harmonic balancer and fan belt so trying to diagnose balance, level running and noises. Just happened that I also noticed my temps running normal with it off.
I always run the engine with the fan on .. habit I guess.

i did a run last year when it was 42C up to Cunderdin from Perth. 2.5 to 3hr drive through hills. had wife, dog, daughter, some light gear. i was doing the same. up hill air-con off and then back on at crest. wasnt the most relaxing drive. my temps ranged from 87 (normal temp) to 96C i think was highest when my EGT was about 650 for about 10-15 seconds. i think the avg was about 92 or 93C for that trip.

i think d1 generally run cool in normal driving and at normal ambient temp but then heat up quickly under load. possibly due to it being designed for english climates. i think even though can be annoying sometimes, a careful foot can manage temps.

other option is to get a better radiator, intercooler and turbo (with higher boost)

[Fausto79]

Yeah a bonnet scoop over the exhaust side of the engine would be good. At highway speed, cool air would rush in and push the hot air out the bottom...

Wouldn't the rubber wrapping of that pipe just heat anyway though?

not as much as metal. its quite heavy rubber and insulates against radiant heat. i would be confident in their reason for putting it there rather than speculate if it makes a difference.

with the louvre i was thinking more like the flush ones, similar to the side one on wrx. rather than get air pushed in, you let air flow out that comes from the front or under at speed and out the bonnet louve. would need to test air pressure spots over bonnet to see where best to put it. there is a thread on here about that and people's opinion about scoops etc. i think if you have a low pressure point where you put a scoop you would be getting air out rather than rammed in.

[AK83]

....
From what you say it doesn't sound like they are prone to overheating - perhaps even the opposite (if you have driven around with no fan with no obvious consequences!)

Todays drive to kids school. I'm estimating ambient temps this morning at about 20°C.
About 25mins each way.
Easy trip down .. passed tram early on, along the route easy free run to the school.
About 4 stops along the way, I reckon 5mins max at one of them.
Took fan off before I headed off.
Highest temp recorded was 81°C on the way down. Generally sat at about 80 once it warmed.
Very slow drive on the way back home tho .. long queue behind one tram.
Took at least 10 mins to travel 200 meters or so past the worst intersection.
Coolant temp on the way back again sat at 80-81, rose to 83 for a split second just after I cleared this very tedious intersection, and settled back down to 82 for a 2 min free run to the next set of lights.
Next set of lights are about 1 min beyond that with a free run at about 50k/h and coolant temp dropped to 79°C! :confused: ... but [thumbsupbig]

So my assessment of my D1 at the moment is that the fan isn't really doing all that much. My observation of it for a long time tho is that it freewheels a lot anyhow.
Was bought new from Mario in April .. and in hindsight I don't think the old one was actually inoperative.

I have no idea on the overall history of my D1, but head gasket definitely looks like it's been done at some point. Previous owner hadn't done it, so one of the prior owners had for sure. One of those previous owners definitely towed something heavy as it had a brake controller fitted(I removed) ... so they may have worked the engine harder than I'll ever do. Engine did have green coolant when I got it, but I've drained it so many times since(many stuff ups and so on) .. but only run straight water ATM. But it's clean as a whilst. Doubly confirmed when I had to do my water pump the other day too.

Until I do a test run on a warmer day with engine under load and A/C on .. my assessment of the 300 Tdi is that it's not really prone to overheating unless something is amiss.

One thing I'm curious about too is the type of radiator each member has in their 300 Tdi D1.
I'm looking around various places .. ebay LR parts sellers and forums, and many seem to have a copper or aluminium rad with the silly plastic side tanks.
Mine has a full copper radiator(ie. copper side tanks).

[Fausto79]

Todays drive to kids school. I'm estimating ambient temps this morning at about 20°C.
About 25mins each way.
Easy trip down .. passed tram early on, along the route easy free run to the school.
About 4 stops along the way, I reckon 5mins max at one of them.
Took fan off before I headed off.
Highest temp recorded was 81°C on the way down. Generally sat at about 80 once it warmed.
Very slow drive on the way back home tho .. long queue behind one tram.
Took at least 10 mins to travel 200 meters or so past the worst intersection.
Coolant temp on the way back again sat at 80-81, rose to 83 for a split second just after I cleared this very tedious intersection, and settled back down to 82 for a 2 min free run to the next set of lights.
Next set of lights are about 1 min beyond that with a free run at about 50k/h and coolant temp dropped to 79°C! :confused: ... but [thumbsupbig]

So my assessment of my D1 at the moment is that the fan isn't really doing all that much. My observation of it for a long time tho is that it freewheels a lot anyhow.
Was bought new from Mario in April .. and in hindsight I don't think the old one was actually inoperative.

I have no idea on the overall history of my D1, but head gasket definitely looks like it's been done at some point. Previous owner hadn't done it, so one of the prior owners had for sure. One of those previous owners definitely towed something heavy as it had a brake controller fitted(I removed) ... so they may have worked the engine harder than I'll ever do. Engine did have green coolant when I got it, but I've drained it so many times since(many stuff ups and so on) .. but only run straight water ATM. But it's clean as a whilst. Doubly confirmed when I had to do my water pump the other day too.

Until I do a test run on a warmer day with engine under load and A/C on .. my assessment of the 300 Tdi is that it's not really prone to overheating unless something is amiss.

One thing I'm curious about too is the type of radiator each member has in their 300 Tdi D1.
I'm looking around various places .. ebay LR parts sellers and forums, and many seem to have a copper or aluminium rad with the silly plastic side tanks.
Mine has a full copper radiator(ie. copper side tanks).

don't use plastic ones and don't use aluminium (it will disappear before your eyes, if it hasn't cracked from bumping around). just use the original copper ones. get it re-cored if you have to (as i did). when i was overhauling the cooling system as part of my new head works, i looked around at various options. every expert said to keep away from everything except for the full copper original ones. as i couldn't afford a new one i got my old one re-cored. it was almost completely clogged up. there's a picture of it floating around on here. car still ran ok temps though funnily enough.

aluminium is used in racing for weight control but you got to take into mind that a lot of work goes into those cars and the system would get drained/flushed/cleaned on a regular basis and new radiator put in as soon as there was some compromise.

you don't want to be doing that and if you leave it in for the two years it is recommended between coolant changes it will very likely already be turning to dust or getting hairline cracks.

[Finnius]

Hey,

Anyone know what's the go with tuning the fuel mix after putting in a bigger intercooler? I see lots of people just plonk an uprated intercooler in, but on allisports website they say that the fuel mix needs to be adjusted... however i think you will still get economy increases without tuning as cooler denser air means more power at the same fuel ratio...

I am curious why some people say the alloy radiators when used with a 300TDi will just 'disappear'?
The heads on the 300TDis are alloy aren't they, so why if using the correct coolant and replacing it when needed would corrosion destroy the radiator and not the head...
I have had alloy radiators in other 4WDs for years with no problem.

[AK83]

....
I am curious why some people say the alloy radiators when used with a 300TDi will just 'disappear'?
....

Some folks may have just had bad experiences, other probably don't realise that alloy/plastic rads have been used successfully as std equipment for a good 20 odd years now!

I personally have never had any issues with alloy radiators.
Yeah, they can block up and or crack up or whatever they're supposedly are 'infamous for' .. no different to full copper, genuine manufacturer radiators tho! [bighmmm]
In my personal experience I've had more full copper radiators fail on me than all of the plastic/alloy radiators I've ever had.

[Fausto79]

Some folks may have just had bad experiences, other probably don't realise that alloy/plastic rads have been used successfully as std equipment for a good 20 odd years now!

I personally have never had any issues with alloy radiators.
Yeah, they can block up and or crack up or whatever they're supposedly are 'infamous for' .. no different to full copper, genuine manufacturer radiators tho! [bighmmm]
In my personal experience I've had more full copper radiators fail on me than all of the plastic/alloy radiators I've ever had.

as i said i just quoted what was told to me by people who know a lot more than i do. general physics rules though, copper is far more conducting than alloy and far more ductile. so cooling efficiency is higher and less prone to cracking from vibrations based on those principles. copper doesnt corrode either. as far as the alloy head and the alloy radiator is concerned, the head still does get corrosion. possibly because it's thicker though or has more flow through it, it is not noticeable. where as the radiator is very thin and has all those fins and tubes so all it takes is a little bit of corrosion before it becomes a big bit of junk. that last bit is just speculation though. maybe someone with more knowledge than me can chip in. all i know was the people that i asked knew way more than i do and i respect them so i stayed with my copper radiator and got it re-cored, which was cheaper than getting a good alloy one anyway so it's a bit of a no brainer if you ask me. i would never put any cheap ebay chinese alloy anything in my 2 tonne offspring.

[AK83]

I generally tend not to disagree with people and make loud noises about it.
Y'know .. each to their own .. bygones be bygones .. and so forth .. BUT!



.... copper doesnt corrode either. ....

Is a fair stretch of the truth.
Have no idea where this info originated, but having had a lot of dealings in my past with refrigeration(only as an operator in my dads previous food delivery business) .. I can tell you 101% that copper does corrode.
It starts off going green.
And my RRC is proof(enough for me) that whatever corrosion process it succumbs too, it's slow and not easily noticeable .. but it does happen.

My RRC was a '79 model. I got it in '88. Apart from religiously servicing, which included regular coolant refreshes(and far too many dead Lucas alternators! :bat:) .. I think it was about mid 90's when it's radiator(full copper) turned to dust.
it wasn't the entire fin area, because the rad was checked, flushed and rechecked for issues.
The hand against the fin area was only at the sides that were still very solid.
I've written about the issue previously in other threads but my RRC started to run hot(dash temp gauge at the start of the red zone) for 2 years with lots of checking of various bits and pieces. It never actually over heated tho!
And during those 2 years I'd done many trips into Central Aus with it in hot weather.

One day when I was doing something to the engine(can't remember) but needed the viscous fan to be removed, as I was working at the front of the engine, my hand rubbed moderately hard against the central part of the rad(ie. in front of the fan area) and copper dust ensued.
On the previous rad fin checks as the fan made it harder to feel that area, I just felt the area around it, which was solid.
But the copper area around the fan area was soft, squishy, flaky and easy to pull to pieces just moderately rubbing a hand over it.. with no effect on your skin!
A leak eventually sprung with this rubbing(car still stone cold) .. and of course I freaked out.
Back then I live very close to the old RoverDrive walked up there got a new rad(luckily he had on special) fitted, and the previous 2 years of overly hot running confirmed that copper rads can and do fail.
What surprised me tho was that even tho it ran hot(not overly pressurised tho) .. it never actually sprung a leak or exploded .. considering how little pressure it needed to fall to pieces by hand.

Over the last 20 years I've had or helped others with their vehicles, I've never seen an aluminium radiator do the same thing(with the aluminium core). Yeah, they spring leaks and they eventually hole themselves or whatever .. but from what I've seen not any more so than all the copper rads I've had to deal with in my time.
While those plastic aluminium radiators are usually pretty reliable(which is why all manufacturers use them!) .. I still don't like the plastic tanks on them.

Well over a year ago I got a full (welded) alloy rad for my 300 Tdi, what I think was pretty cheap. Not the best quality(in terms of fit and finish) .. but for the price, I'd thought it'd be worth a test to see if it makes any difference.
If I weren't too busy AND lazy at the same time, I'd have fitted it ages ago.
I wanted to fit the rad and thicker I/C at the same time, in a nice shiny new alloy frame tho .. why I haven't gotten into it yet.
From my studying the thicker I/C and the frontmost area of the discos radiator bodywork(where the I/C sits, I think that the cheaper ebay style thicker I/C may require the bodywork to be modded(ie. cut and folded).
Added to this that the chassis steering bracket needs to be ground a bit .. it's not going to be a simple replacement job .. and my D1 is my daily drive.

I'm going to do a quick test fit one day tho, just to assess the front rad bodywork fitment .. and if it looks like it's going to struggle in any way .. I'm going to abandon my cheapo ebay thick I/C and order the much better looking (fitment) Allisport type(with it's chamfered tank design).

As always the problem is finding the time to do it all .. dads POS just burnt it's clutch out .. so lost a day just retrieving it. Now we have to get it to the mechanic, get the parts .. etc.

[rick130]

Copper sure does corrode!

My game atm is commercial/industrial refrigeration and HVAC, we have copper evaporators and coils corrode through in as little as twelve months.....
I replace a lot of corroded evaporators.
All they are often exposed to is veggies.....

Copper also has the unfortunate behavior of age and work hardening badly, ie. vibration hardens copper.
Dead soft 5000 grade aluminium is actually quite good in this regard.

As soon as you start alloying it it will age and work harden, it all comes down to what grade/metals are used in the alloy, but generally the stronger the alloy the worse it is.

Copper does have better thermal properties than dead soft aluminum, but on a radiator an aluminum one often has better heat transfer due to less mass/faster heat transfer and the brazing process used. Tin/lead solder isn't very good at heat transfer.

Yes, stray current will eat an aluminum core in days.

It's swings and merry-go-rounds.


FWIW I had the local rad bloke fit a HD Redback core to the standard tanks.

The tubes were longer than stock and we went with a slightly coarser fin pitch to reduce blockage by grass seeds, etc. off road

[Fausto79]

Copper sure does corrode!

My game atm is commercial/industrial refrigeration and HVAC, we have copper evaporators and coils corrode through in as little as twelve months.....
I replace a lot of corroded evaporators.
All they are often exposed to is veggies.....

Copper also has the unfortunate behavior of age and work hardening badly, ie. vibration hardens copper.
Dead soft 5000 grade aluminium is actually quite good in this regard.

As soon as you start alloying it it will age and work harden, it all comes down to what grade/metals are used in the alloy, but generally the stronger the alloy the worse it is.

Copper does have better thermal properties than dead soft aluminum, but on a radiator an aluminum one often has better heat transfer due to less mass/faster heat transfer and the brazing process used. Tin/lead solder isn't very good at heat transfer.

Yes, stray current will eat an aluminum core in days.

It's swings and merry-go-rounds.


FWIW I had the local rad bloke fit a HD Redback core to the standard tanks.

The tubes were longer than stock and we went with a slightly coarser fin pitch to reduce blockage by grass seeds, etc. off road

ok everything corrodes. what i meant is not as fast as alloy. but i guess i stand corrected there too, to some extent.

still, as i said, cost me less to get my copper rad re-cored than anything else so in my opinion that is the best way to go. if i was to get an alloy one i would only get a quality one and they are priced far more than re-coring copper so won't ever happen. my tdi is cooling beautifully since ive completely overhauled my cooling system, so no real need for anything else. i would never put anything cheap and nasty in it's place, i love that car too much.

[DiscoMick]

The copper radiator in our D1 lasted 16 years before I replaced it as maintenance ahead of a big trip with another copper one.
The 300Tdi seemed to be a cool running engine.
The viscous fan rarely came on unless the air con was working.