Feedback wanted - 10k Touring machines

[Adz]

Hi Guys,

I'm wanting to get some feedback from the general 4wd buying public. I'm a third generation Car dealer who runs a yard that specialise mainly in dual cab utes, commercials, Suv's and soft roaders but I have been thinking a lot lately about a different sort of path. We are mainly involved in later model stuff starting from around the 15k up to 30 odd. My thoughts are trending towards going to an older style of vehicle with maybe closer to 200,000k's (mainly because this is where market value does tend to drop out of the vehicles even though they may be we mechanically sound) but being quite thorough in the reconditioning process and spending a bit of money on decent accessories to fit the vehicles out properly for touring and camping, things like roof racks, drawers, decent All-Terrain tyres, even UHF setups and things like that. Obviously things like turbo diesel hundred series cruisers aren't going to fit the bill but Certainly Disco 1's and 2's, Earlier model Petrol GU Patrols from say 1999 - 2002 I think could work, early 2000 model dual cabs (not Hiluxes, they're still ridiculous money for what they are) stuff like that. The goal would be to basically have them fairly decked out at a price around the 10k. I guess what I am asking as we're all land rover buffs here is would you guys be willing to pay 10k for say a 300 Tdi Disco 1 that had been gone over thouroghly mechanically wise and came with a proper road worthy, a bit of gear say a 2inch suspension lift, some 31" All terrains and things like roof racks, snorkel maybe a UHF or something like that? All feedback is appreciated. Let me have it

[trout1105]

This sounds like a Good idea But for many of us a lot of the enjoyment comes from fitting out a stock Disco into a touring machine ourselves.
A Discovery 1 or 2 in good mechanical order is a very capable 4WD in it's original configuration But doing a few modifications does enhance their 4WD and touring capabilities and building your own Personalised truck brings a lot of satisfaction.
However being able to grab one already fitted out and ready to rock and roll for 10k will be a good proposition for someone that doesn't want to muck about building their own.

[cripesamighty]

Sounds like a great idea to me. For all the people who are time/space poor, it would definitely fill a niche. If you do them in-house, you could value-add by tailoring it for a prospective owner who has already laid some money down.

[bee utey]

I think you'll have real trouble fitting all your goodies as well as some mechanical repairs into 10K and have a vehicle that won't come back to bite you. These things are 15 to 25 years old and genuine spares are virtually unobtainable, and aftermarket is a bit hit or miss at times. Personally I'd steer clear of anything that didn't look stock as a rock and dearly loved and mollycoddled by an elderly and timid couple. Modified 4WD's don't age well.

Best of luck trying though. [smilebigeye]

[Adz]

I think you'll have real trouble fitting all your goodies as well as some mechanical repairs into 10K and have a vehicle that won't come back to bite you. These things are 15 to 25 years old and genuine spares are virtually unobtainable, and aftermarket is a bit hit or miss at times. Personally I'd steer clear of anything that didn't look stock as a rock and dearly loved and mollycoddled by an elderly and timid couple. Modified 4WD's don't age well.

Best of luck trying though. [smilebigeye]

Not worried about the vehicles themselves as we've been doing it forever so know what we're looking at and where to get it. It's more of a case of whether people are willing to pay that sort of money for that type of vehicle. It can be easily done but not much point in doing it if people don't want the product.

[Mick_Marsh]

I wouldn't.
For me, and there are some that think as I, it's about getting a car as original as possible and modifying it (or not) to my personal taste.
There is also the "Landrover" issue as well. The perception out there is that Landrovers are unreliable and expensive to fix. Yes, a myth, but you are limiting your market to the faithful and a few others. You would have to ascertain that market is big enough for you.
I think you would have to do your market research well. Don't rely on the opinions on a forum alone.
Having said that, there is another player in the market that I hear is doing well. You give them a lot of cash and they build you up an awesome Landrover. I'd love to give them my Stage 1 and see what I get back but, I don't have the disposable cash.

[Adz]

I wouldn't.
For me, and there are some that think as I, it's about getting a car as original as possible and modifying it (or not) to my personal taste.
There is also the "Landrover" issue as well. The perception out there is that Landrovers are unreliable and expensive to fix. Yes, a myth, but you are limiting your market to the faithful and a few others. You would have to ascertain that market is big enough for you.
I think you would have to do your market research well. Don't rely on the opinions on a forum alone.
Having said that, there is another player in the market that I hear is doing well. You give them a lot of cash and they build you up an awesome Landrover. I'd love to give them my Stage 1 and see what I get back but, I don't have the disposable cash.

Sorry if I didn’t clarify. I’m not talking about only Landrovers I’m talking all makes and models I was just using an old discovery 1 or 2 as an example as this is a Land Rover forum and was trying to give an example that would suit the people on this particular forum. I wouldn’t think for a minute that you could survive on selling old land rovers.

[Grumbles]

What a wonderful concept. It deserves some serious thought over a day or so. Good on you for bringing the question to us.[thumbsupbig]

[manic]

So many D1s with paint peel going for next to nothing, a tidy bonnet/roof respray could gain 2k on resale!

I bought a solid d1 for $800 and now have it above roadworthy at under $2500. Im only a snorkel and dual battery set up away from a good tourer spec. A solid, mechanically sound, rust free and kitted out d1 should be worth 10k IMO but it would be hard work selling one at that price to this savy bunch on aulro.

If you own a car yard you probably know how much you could sell them for. Go for it if you have the clientele.

[Zeros]

Interesting proposition. As others have said part of the enjoyment of setting up a vehicle for touring is building it up to personal requirements.

The main issue I see you having is counteracting the perception of bling over reliability. At $10K the accessories on a vehicle aren't what I'd be looking for. A new set of muddies, raised suspension, etc are pretty easy to spot on an old 4x4. In fact they would actually make me look more closely at the mechanicals / service history, especially at that price. Also such mods can actually make a vehicle less reliable for long distance touring.

...However, if you are truly thorough in the reconditioning and specialise in putting touring vehicles together with a focus on reliability strengthening / upgrading / uprating drivetrain, radiator, intercooler, waterpump, alternator, etc and your documentation and warranty guaranteed all those basics, I reckon you could be on a winner.

Leave the accessorising to personal requirements. Or have it as an option.

[loanrangie]

I have a d1 for sale to get the ball rolling :)

[pop058]

As much as I think you may have a good idea, I struggle to see you making a living selling $10K D1's (or similar in other makes). I am just thinking (out loud) here but can anyone remember the last time an early Disco sold for that sort of money. Whether is was a one elderly owner or a full on beast.

It has already been said that your market may well be to offer good reliable vehicles and add the bling as an option to your customers requests or let them do it themselves with you supplying the parts. I believe anyone that contemplates using this type (read age) of vehicle is someone that would also enjoy "making it their own".

Don't get me wrong, I think you are onto something and as I am not a fan of modern cars (my youngest car is a D1), I applaud you for trying to keep the "older" models on the road.

Good luck but do lots of homework. :thumbsup:

[Archangel007]

I guess the answer would be yes if it came with some sort of "useful" warranty that was worth more than the paper it was written on...!!

What might be a better option would be to sell the vehicle with a voucher, for say $1,000 worth of accessories, that came with the vehicle whereby the new owner could pick n choose what they wanted and customise the vehicle to their tastes.... like in the old days where you went into the dealer and went through the options list and ticked the boxes that you wanted, came back a week later and picked up your new (in this case used) vehicle all decked out.

Its a more personal approach by the dealer in what is perceived a very impersonal (usually) market sector.

Just my $0.02

Cheers,
Tricky



Hi Guys,

I'm wanting to get some feedback from the general 4wd buying public. I'm a third generation Car dealer who runs a yard that specialise mainly in dual cab utes, commercials, Suv's and soft roaders but I have been thinking a lot lately about a different sort of path. We are mainly involved in later model stuff starting from around the 15k up to 30 odd. My thoughts are trending towards going to an older style of vehicle with maybe closer to 200,000k's (mainly because this is where market value does tend to drop out of the vehicles even though they may be we mechanically sound) but being quite thorough in the reconditioning process and spending a bit of money on decent accessories to fit the vehicles out properly for touring and camping, things like roof racks, drawers, decent All-Terrain tyres, even UHF setups and things like that. Obviously things like turbo diesel hundred series cruisers aren't going to fit the bill but Certainly Disco 1's and 2's, Earlier model Petrol GU Patrols from say 1999 - 2002 I think could work, early 2000 model dual cabs (not Hiluxes, they're still ridiculous money for what they are) stuff like that. The goal would be to basically have them fairly decked out at a price around the 10k. I guess what I am asking as we're all land rover buffs here is would you guys be willing to pay 10k for say a 300 Tdi Disco 1 that had been gone over thouroghly mechanically wise and came with a proper road worthy, a bit of gear say a 2inch suspension lift, some 31" All terrains and things like roof racks, snorkel maybe a UHF or something like that? All feedback is appreciated. Let me have it

[Wicks89]

Hey mate really interesting idea, and I think appealing for people with money but no time or space.

I think what you could aim for is a poor man's version of the Les Richmond 'Storm Series'. Where say you get a D1 at base price of 6k with a roadworthy etc.

Then offer packages at point of sale or inquiry: tourer 10k (ATs, lift, UHF) or crawler 10k (muddies, winch) or maybe a 15k option as well (tyres, lockers, axles, winch).

So the customer gets a car with a legit warranty, quality mods (no wacky lifts or Chinese muddies, I'm talking Oztec shocks, Hankook or toyo muddies or something) and ready to go.

This kind of setup simulates like a new car at a dealer, you could pick the bullbar etc, except a customer can get a legit 4x4 like a disco 1 or maybe they even bring their current rig to you and you sort it out and put the package on.

The 4x4 industry is booming, so wise to get on board I think. There are a lot of companies that sell cheap accessories, but I don't think many that fit them, and most are bolt on crap like RTT. So if you offer a service where you couple quality, cheap old 4x4s and QUALITY UPGRADES, with a proper warranty I think it will work out.

[Bigbjorn]

Adz, I am a former used car dealer. I doubt if you could do that for 10 big ones and still keep a decent profit and have some fat in the deal to load a dog trade-in. Best % margins in the industry used to be received by bomb dealers. Buy cheapies at auction: a quick clean down: keep the asking price under the warranty point; and if the heads come back and complain tell them "no warranty on cheapies, **** off".

I mention trade-ins because customers looking for cheap buys always have a dud trade for which they expect top dollar as if it was a 100 point concours car. If they had a trade I didn't wish to handle even to sell to wreckers then I used to offer them the amount of fat in the deal as "no trade discount, keep your car and sell it yourself".

[Adz]

Adz, I am a former used car dealer. I doubt if you could do that for 10 big ones and still keep a decent profit and have some fat in the deal to load a dog trade-in. Best % margins in the industry used to be received by bomb dealers. Buy cheapies at auction: a quick clean down: keep the asking price under the warranty point; and if the heads come back and complain tell them "no warranty on cheapies, **** off".

I mention trade-ins because customers looking for cheap buys always have a dud trade for which they expect top dollar as if it was a 100 point concours car. If they had a trade I didn't wish to handle even to sell to wreckers then I used to offer them the amount of fat in the deal as "no trade discount, keep your car and sell it yourself".


I'd probably disagree with you a bit there mainly because most people if you are honest with, explain to them how margins work these days most people understand and see why the value of there trade is what it is. The internet has changed the way we do business these days so most of the time customers have a reasonable idea of what their old cars worth so I'm not worried about it. Not to mention, in my experience very few people are trying to trade in a vehicle on a 10 grand 4x4 anyway. It's always a case of spend the money on the car to start with so it doesn't have to come back. Never tried to have the best margins and never will. Good Car for a Good price is the best way to do it.

[Adz]

Hey mate really interesting idea, and I think appealing for people with money but no time or space.

I think what you could aim for is a poor man's version of the Les Richmond 'Storm Series'. Where say you get a D1 at base price of 6k with a roadworthy etc.

Then offer packages at point of sale or inquiry: tourer 10k (ATs, lift, UHF) or crawler 10k (muddies, winch) or maybe a 15k option as well (tyres, lockers, axles, winch).

So the customer gets a car with a legit warranty, quality mods (no wacky lifts or Chinese muddies, I'm talking Oztec shocks, Hankook or toyo muddies or something) and ready to go.

This kind of setup simulates like a new car at a dealer, you could pick the bullbar etc, except a customer can get a legit 4x4 like a disco 1 or maybe they even bring their current rig to you and you sort it out and put the package on.

The 4x4 industry is booming, so wise to get on board I think. There are a lot of companies that sell cheap accessories, but I don't think many that fit them, and most are bolt on crap like RTT. So if you offer a service where you couple quality, cheap old 4x4s and QUALITY UPGRADES, with a proper warranty I think it will work out.



I'll have a look into those Les Richmond ones but they seem to be just an absolute **** and over capitialisation on an old vehicle. I'd imagine theyd be lucky to do a handful of those things a year. I'd like a product that someone can actually get rid of after a few years without losing a deposit on a small house along the way. Doesn't make for a good case of returning customers...

[Wicks89]

I'll have a look into those Les Richmond ones but they seem to be just an absolute **** and over capitialisation on an old vehicle. I'd imagine theyd be lucky to do a handful of those things a year. I'd like a product that someone can actually get rid of after a few years without losing a deposit on a small house along the way. Doesn't make for a good case of returning customers...

Yeah I don't disagree with you, I'm not saying go anywhere near that level, but that concept is what I'm referring to.

In their case they start with a donor vehicle that you bring them or that they source and build an over the top package around that.

The part I think you could emulate is starting with the blank canvas that is sound (as you indicated) and add the package the customer wants within the price realm you're looking at (10-20k for the total purchase).

I have been thinking about this for the last few days and I think you're onto something.

[Disco-tastic]

My MIL just spent $25k on a well used HiAce camper. Its the newer shape (i think its a 2012 model?) with inverter, battery, fridge, gas cooker etc. She has little idea how any of it actually works...

But she loves it!

Theres heaps of people in campervans all over the place - hire ones or cheapies they found online. Whether that interest extends into 4x4 vehicles i dunno. Maybe if you included a driver training day as part of the deal? Then people who usually travel in a van might feel they could jump up to a 4x4?

[cripesamighty]

There are quite a few backpackers I have met over the years who would be all over a reliable vehicle like a rash, after having bought heaps of junk (for good $$) and then got stuck in the middle of nowhere, thus doing their hard earned money. Another avenue to possibly think of...

[crash]

Hey mate really interesting idea, and I think appealing for people with money but no time or space.

I think what you could aim for is a poor man's version of the Les Richmond 'Storm Series'. Where say you get a D1 at base price of 6k with a roadworthy etc.

Then offer packages at point of sale or inquiry: tourer 10k (ATs, lift, UHF) or crawler 10k (muddies, winch) or maybe a 15k option as well (tyres, lockers, axles, winch).

So the customer gets a car with a legit warranty, quality mods (no wacky lifts or Chinese muddies, I'm talking Oztec shocks, Hankook or toyo muddies or something) and ready to go.

This kind of setup simulates like a new car at a dealer, you could pick the bullbar etc, except a customer can get a legit 4x4 like a disco 1 or maybe they even bring their current rig to you and you sort it out and put the package on.

The 4x4 industry is booming, so wise to get on board I think. There are a lot of companies that sell cheap accessories, but I don't think many that fit them, and most are bolt on crap like RTT. So if you offer a service where you couple quality, cheap old 4x4s and QUALITY UPGRADES, with a proper warranty I think it will work out.
I like the above approach. You may end up selling only a few "packages", but sell more vehicles without it. That way you have not already spent the man hours and money on setting them up prior to a potential purchase. As said in previous - some people want to do the customisation themselves. It would be wise to have at least one on the lot already setup that you could have potential customers look at. For example it could be a Disco, but a customer could be looking a basic patrol and as your conversations with the customer as to what they are going to use the vehicle for you could suggest potential upgrades for said purchase and say there is an example over there - not the same brand as you are looking for but we could a similar for you.

[Classic88]

I reckon there might also be a market for the more 'classic' end of things. In the same way that bell tents are becoming popular again; it's retro and appeals to experience seekers. These might be more in demand as weekend hire vehicles (with full camping equipment included) than to buy though.

[workingonit]

cripesamighty echoed what I had been thinking.

Young British backpacker couple in a v8 Disco 1 broke down with overheating issues on the highway on outskirts of Darwin on a day trip to a local park - and were soon to be heading out on the big oz loop. Fortunately for them they broke down near where I live, and again fortunate I'd just wrecked a v8, so had a replacement water pump on hand for them to fit with my assistance. Their confidence in the vehicle was very shaken. And with the number of leaks I could see and price they paid (high), they had been sold a pup.

I also helped one of our forum members with a D2 v8 who I also think got ripped. Prior to purchase the vehicle had been inspected by a national franchise company that offered inspection services, (done a little bit of work?) and given the 'OK'. While touring, apart from the failing gearbox, the oil lines were found to be old and brittle (they split in Darwin), manifold bolts were missing, the exhaust pipe on drivers side had a motor bike muffler poorly welded in, etc.

If I were going to market 2nd hand $10k cars then I would concentrate on reliability first and foremost and have an education plan about the type of vehicle and work done to ensure reliability - compare and contrast with your other makes and models. If accessorising before a potential buyer even looks at it then do for the customer, if margins allow it, the irritating things that require cutting, grinding, heavy lifting, being tech savvy ie fit a snorkel, a winch capable bullbar with rated winchpoints (no winch fitted though), electrical outlets for spot lights, fridge and CB radio - this makes the vehicle attractive to those wanting to do their own customisation but without the hassles; and attractive to those wanting just basic capable and ready if they hit a roo or want someone to tow them out. Then market to them spotlights, fridges etc or let them get their own bolt on and plug in stuff.

For backpackers, for Land Rover, for some comfort and speed, I'd concentrate on the Disco 1 Tdi300 auto with little towing history. When properly serviced it is reliable. Lots of accessories exist for the vehicle. New parts are cheap and generally available in Oz through independent and authorised dealers. Achilles heel - ensure your buyers know to lock the centre diff on lose surfaces, and how to fill the radiator to avoid air locks.

Do some research on the fly in fly out habits of backpackers. If many short term backpackers come in via Brisbane and fly home via Brisbane then maybe you could offer an agreed buy back deal much in your favour (maybe transferable to other backpackers) if vehicle returned in good nick - saves them the hassle of wasting days trying to sell it themselves. Internet advertising, build up a good rep amongst incoming backpackers. However, many intent on years of travel leave via Darwin for asia - meaning I and wicks89 would get a good supply of your top class Discos at cheap prices to keep us happily motoring on...[biggrin]

Get in touch with government agencies that run large programs requiring lots of vehicles - it's cyclic, such as census and health surveys for example. Generally they lease, but occasionally run out of access to vehicles and turn to rentals only to find the ma and pa franchisers won't let their vehicles out to agencies that are going remote (where, in addition, petrol vehicles are sometimes banned or frowned upon). Often the only option then is mine spec vehicles at huge rental rates.

And if you sell them a LRover, throw in a years subscription to this site ($11).