Roundabouts & Semi-Trailer- Any rules?

[DeeJay]

I should remember as I drove Semi's for a short time but thought I would ask here.
I was travelling with my newly licensed daughter yesterday when she entered a roundabout on the right next to a Semi - It was a pretty small roundabout but 2 lanes.
We both were going straight ahead & luckily I shouted out in panic as the semi bogie was clearly going to "invade" our lane. She braked heavily & veered to the right, the semi driver braked but not before the rear wheels passed about a layer of paint across our passenger front.
He was not impressed & gave sign language that we should have given him room. I kind of ticked my daughter off but she clearly did not know how a semi behaves, she was pretty happy that I was with her to give the warning though.
So if the rear wheels had gone over her bonnet, who would have been at fault?
My know it all wife says we were in our lane & not our fault.
David

[cjc_td5]

Did the truck have a "Do not overtake turning vehicle" sign on the rear? I believe this sign gives authority to cross lanes when turning. That said the driver would have an obligation to make sure that any adjacent lane was not occupied before they tracked into it.

[jonesfam]

Doesn't matter what the law says,
If a Semi runs over you your going to loose.

Jonesfam

[Gordie]

Did the truck have a "Do not overtake turning vehicle" sign on the rear? I believe this sign gives authority to cross lanes when turning. That said the driver would have an obligation to make sure that any adjacent lane was not occupied before they tracked into it.Doesn't cover 'multi laned roads' as long as you are within your lane....but that said, the law of common sense applies.

[weeds]

Truckie or would never be in the wrong.....just ask him

I have tried to point out the different hazard that pop up with the two teenagers I have on their learners.....it is hard for them to understand fully until they experience it first hand as they haven’t had the experience and awareness on the road.

[Gordie]

First thing I taught my kids when they were learning to drive..."you are in a Hyundai getz, pretty much everything on the road is bigger than you....so keep your wits about you".

[travelrover]

Doesn't matter what the law says,
If a Semi runs over you your going to loose.

Jonesfam

Yup, rule one: if he’s bigger give way!! No idea what the law says but dont want to die finding out.

[DeeJay]

Did the truck have a "Do not overtake turning vehicle" sign on the rear? I believe this sign gives authority to cross lanes when turning. That said the driver would have an obligation to make sure that any adjacent lane was not occupied before they tracked into it.

Pretty sure not, it was a pretty dirty truck but I was too busy recovering from anxiety to remember. Funnily enough I disconnected the dashcam 10 min beforehand as it was cutting out. It would have been great footage for Dashcams Australia...

I'm glad the missus doesn't read AULRO, coz I think I'll forget to tell her she is technically correct...
David

[pop058]

All road users have an obligation to ensure lanes are clear before they try and occupy them, but I think the semi does have right of way if he was on the scene first and the relevant sign are displayed on the rear of the trailer.

As a side note without checking rule books, keep clear when turning signs are only permitted on vehicles/combos over 7.5 MTS in length.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Any semi trailer is entitled to make wide turns, this includes turning left from the right lane and turning right from the left lane. They are required to display the 132174 sign and either two 132175 or the pair of striped signs 132176.

The fact that you start to overtake a long vehicle before the turn still gives the truck the right of way, but the driver should take all care to avoid other vehicles.

[rangieman]

I think anyone willing to pass a semi when it is turning is not long for this world .

Sorry to say Dave but yes you should have taught her this and it was good that you were there to warn her [thumbsupbig]

The problem with majority of young people these days is they are not taught the dangers , They are only taught how to pass a test to get a licence:bat:
How many idiot`s sit on the left side of a truck right beside the door and cant be seen by the driver way too many:soapbox:

[gavinwibrow]

Any semi trailer is entitled to make wide turns, this includes turning left from the right lane and turning right from the left lane. They are required to display the 132174 sign and either two 132175 or the pair of striped signs 132176.

The fact that you start to overtake a long vehicle before the turn still gives the truck the right of way, but the driver should take all care to avoid other vehicles.


And another basic law forgotten by so many - the overtaking vehicle has to ensure safe to overtake, otherwise give way/pull back.
For us old farts, pretty basic, but I take the point about newbies just not being aware.

[V8Ian]

All road users have an obligation to ensure lanes are clear before they try and occupy them, but I think the semi does have right of way if he was on the scene first and the relevant sign are displayed on the rear of the trailer.

As a side note without checking rule books, keep clear when turning signs are only permitted on vehicles/combos over 7.5 MTS in length.
Spot on, Paul.

[hodgo]

Lots of sound and good advice on this subject, I​ drove semis for many years and encountered this over taking on roundabouts often, I adapted a method that prevented it, on approach to a roundabout I would straddle both lanes on entry preventing any one passing me.
The other thing I have drummed into those I have taught to drive is some times when a semi is turning sharp like in a smallish round about or tight corner where he needs both lane to turn from he may not have rear vision as the mirror could be looking at the forward part of the trailer and not be able to see another smaller vehicle coming up the side of him

[JDNSW]

Many years ago my landlord's son, whom I used to tutor, had a set of rear duals turning left pass over the bonnet of his Austin Healey Sprite - he was below the level of the truck's LH mirror vision. Exit one Sprite. He replaced it with a DB3, from memory.

[Tins]

Did the truck have a "Do not overtake turning vehicle" sign on the rear? I believe this sign gives authority to cross lanes when turning. That said the driver would have an obligation to make sure that any adjacent lane was not occupied before they tracked into it.

If it didn't it was unroadworthy. 7.5 metres or more must have one fitted.

[Tins]

The truckie has a responsibility as well. Back in the dark ages when I first got my semi licence I was taught to 'double lane block' when turning. That included roundabouts.

[Tins]

Lots of sound and good advice on this subject, I​ drove semis for many years and encountered this over taking on roundabouts often, I adapted a method that prevented it, on approach to a roundabout I would straddle both lanes on entry preventing any one passing me.
The other thing I have drummed into those I have taught to drive is some times when a semi is turning sharp like in a smallish round about or tight corner where he needs both lane to turn from he may not have rear vision as the mirror could be looking at the forward part of the trailer and not be able to see another smaller vehicle coming up the side of him


Double lane block is, I believe, mandatory. I know that I was taught to do it. But, who knows what they teach these days?

[Mick_Marsh]

The truckie has a responsibility as well. Back in the dark ages when I first got my semi licence I was taught to 'double lane block' when turning. That included roundabouts.
Yep. I was taught that as well. It's in the truck drivers handbook you can get from Vicroads.
It's a pity car drivers aren't taught to expect truck drivers to do this manoeuvre for the safety of all road users.

[Tins]

Yep. I was taught that as well. It's in the truck drivers handbook you can get from Vicroads.
It's a pity car drivers aren't taught to expect truck drivers to do this manoeuvre for the safety of all road users.

Indeed. It's also a pity they aren't taught that the "DO NOT OVERTAKE TURNING VEHICLE" sign is actually as enforceable as a STOP sign. It isn't there for decoration.

[DeeJay]

Thanks for all the replies, my girl has learnt o good lesson for the future. Technically she wasn't overtaking but pacing the semi in the outside lane. We did spend a small fortune on professional driver training for her - the instructor featured on a TV show about learners some years ago but they can't cover all facets choofing around the burbs.
I was a driving instructor in the CMF in the early 70"s but I guess punching the driver in the arm for mistakes isn't too popular these days. That said, I think a few hours in the industrial area's showing her truck blind spots etc would be a good idea.
David

[hodgo]

My experience with driver trainers is that they teach to the traffic code of what ever state they are in, and very few have any professional driving skills a good example of this was a mate of mine was a butcher for many years just drove to and from work and family outings, he stopped butchering and became a driving instructor. He could recite the NSW book of road rules in his sleep BUT he would not teach common sense as it was not in the book of rules and common sense is what should be included in all instructions to learner drivers to be able to access a situation and act according.
Before I got out off the army I use to moonlight driving coaches and one day 2 of were going back to skanners depot down the valley in Brisbane we had to negotiate very sharp left hand turn and had to use both lanes turning from the mainly from the right hand lane , as the bus in front of moved off a young girl in a mini came up the left hand side of me and was wedged between a telegraph pole and the left hand side of the lead bus the mini was bent like a boomerang A hard way to learn but I will bet she has never done it again

[Wraithe]

Roundabouts is different to a normal road with multiple lanes... Its based on an International law and that comes from the big roundabout in France(oldest in the world 5 or 6 lanes)...

You can change lanes in a roundabout and trucks have the right of the use of both lanes... If its a B-double, then it will require both lanes, irrelevent of how good you think you are as a driver....

First in best dressed is the laman's term of the use of a roundabout, this applies to entering, turning and using... If a truck enters ahead of you, then giveway before entering....

The "do not over take" signs, are required by law, Australia wide, for all vehicles exceeding 7.5 metres.... It does not say that you are not allowed to use them on shorter vehicles...

Any large vehicle in WA has them, even if they are only 6 metres in length(the length of a single drive cabover primemover)...

You can look up the rules of roundabouts, every state has them and they are the same, but Police have trouble enforcing them as they have trouble understanding them...

I was involved with Roadwise(WA) when the laws came into effect and we where teaching and advising the public and Police on the correct use of Roundabouts... Our local Traffic Sgt was getting headaches trying to teach his officers and trying to explain the use to others, he advised his officers to carry a box of pamphlets and give them out instead of tickets, as both the public and Police had trouble...

They are very simple to use once you understand the principles of use...

[Mick_Marsh]

I was a driving instructor in the CMF in the early 70"s but I guess punching the driver in the arm for mistakes isn't too popular these days.
When I got my HR, the instructor whacked me with his brolly everytime I mate a mistake.

[Tins]

Roundabouts is different to a normal road with multiple lanes... Its based on an International law and that comes from the big roundabout in France(oldest in the world 5 or 6 lanes)...

You can change lanes in a roundabout and trucks have the right of the use of both lanes... If its a B-double, then it will require both lanes, irrelevent of how good you think you are as a driver....

First in best dressed is the laman's term of the use of a roundabout, this applies to entering, turning and using... If a truck enters ahead of you, then giveway before entering....

The "do not over take" signs, are required by law, Australia wide, for all vehicles exceeding 7.5 metres.... It does not say that you are not allowed to use them on shorter vehicles...

Any large vehicle in WA has them, even if they are only 6 metres in length(the length of a single drive cabover primemover)...

You can look up the rules of roundabouts, every state has them and they are the same, but Police have trouble enforcing them as they have trouble understanding them...

I was involved with Roadwise(WA) when the laws came into effect and we where teaching and advising the public and Police on the correct use of Roundabouts... Our local Traffic Sgt was getting headaches trying to teach his officers and trying to explain the use to others, he advised his officers to carry a box of pamphlets and give them out instead of tickets, as both the public and Police had trouble...

They are very simple to use once you understand the principles of use...

Roundabouts ARE simple if you know how to use them. A Senior Constable in Vic's TOG that I know explained it like this; There are only two things that you can do in a roundabout, hit somebody or go around it the wrong way.

A vehicle IN the roundabout has right of way over any vehicle approaching it, something that I would like to get out and explain to the goose that approaches at 80 when I'm entering one in a loaded double.

In Vic it is illegal to display the DNOTV sign if the truck is shorter than 7.5. Doesn't stop people doing it though. In fact, I once modified one to put on the back of a club FIAT I had to say DO NOT OVERTAKE OVERTURNING VEHICLE, which got me a few laughs. Wasn't original, I copied it.

All that said, the truck should have applied lane blocking prior to entering the roundabout. I know that I would have.

[350RRC]

When I got my HR, the instructor whacked me with his brolly everytime I mate a mistake.

Not happy with your mating?

DL

[Wraithe]

All that said, the truck should have applied lane blocking prior to entering the roundabout. I know that I would have.


And as you know, quite often thats a waste of time...

I have had a car go around the Police escort and try to go past me on the left while I was turning left with an extendable opened to 60ft... Copper was hanging out his window yelling, to no effect...

His little book and the fact the idiot blocked the road so no one could move, kind of made them think twice...

Its always the same but application of the law first, after that its there neck..

Probably the worst are the ones that just pull out like they own the road and you should use your brakes... The worst are the city truck drivers, they seem to think that a roadtrain can stop faster than them so they have more right to pull out in front of you....

[Mick_Marsh]

Not happy with your mating?

DL
I got my HR. How can you not be happy with that?

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Thanks for all the replies, my girl has learnt o good lesson for the future. Technically she wasn't overtaking but pacing the semi in the outside lane. We did spend a small fortune on professional driver training for her - the instructor featured on a TV show about learners some years ago but they can't cover all facets choofing around the burbs.
I was a driving instructor in the CMF in the early 70"s but I guess punching the driver in the arm for mistakes isn't too popular these days. That said, I think a few hours in the industrial area's showing her truck blind spots etc would be a good idea.
David

If the truck had it's cab ahead of your daughters car and the truck turned on his turn signal then your daughter would have no option other than to stop and let the truck make the turn even if you were both doing the same speed.

Not saying that this is what happened but it's all part of awareness around trucks, the same as the fact that the rear axles of trucks and trailers sometimes have no option other than to cut lane across markings and centre dividing lines of roundabouts and corners. As the stickers state "take care around trucks"

[Tins]

And as you know, quite often thats a waste of time...

I have had a car go around the Police escort and try to go past me on the left while I was turning left with an extendable opened to 60ft... Copper was hanging out his window yelling, to no effect...

His little book and the fact the idiot blocked the road so no one could move, kind of made them think twice...

Its always the same but application of the law first, after that its there neck..

Probably the worst are the ones that just pull out like they own the road and you should use your brakes... The worst are the city truck drivers, they seem to think that a roadtrain can stop faster than them so they have more right to pull out in front of you....

Oh yes, I know. Towing bridge beams, 95t, 50 metres long, dollys, jinkers, about ten escorts with flashing beacons, VicRoads and VicPol in attendance, same as you said... but the pizza would get cold. Unbelievable. It's not like they couldn't see us.

As for the ones who pull out, I guess they are candidates for the Darwin Awards. Dunno how you feel about it ( yes, I've read enough of your posts to know that I do know, you are more of a Pro than me ), but I don't want to go home knowing that I've killed someone else, my fault or not. Once is too many.

[Wraithe]

Dunno how you feel about it ( yes, I've read enough of your posts to know that I do know, you are more of a Pro than me ), but I don't want to go home knowing that I've killed someone else, my fault or not. Once is too many.

You do know how I feel... The same...

I don't carry things I see like that, too well...

I don't go near accidents and I don't want to see any more people deceased, even if they are in the wrong... I try not to presume who is at fault when a life is lost, as everyone involved will never forget...

The last accident I had to stop at, was when a young lad died up between Goomalling and Dowerin... He was told to sit down and put his seatbelt back on... That was the last thing his father got to say to him... His Dad caught the edge of the road, hit tree on other side then bounced off and hit the next tree...
I was told it was a forester they where driving... The roof was peeled back to the rear pillar, the front bumper was back to the firewall, passengers door gone, wife thrown out, baby in bassenett thrown clear and father nearly dead, sister also badly hurt...

First on the scene was the girlfriend of my boss's best friend, she had nursing skills... She had the baby with her and was trying calm the mother who was in shock...

We arrived 5 minutes after it happened, 2 roadtrains, no chance of turning around, and to top it all off, the other truck driver was first on the scene(with his girlfriend) of a fatal only 6 months before(they tried to save the person but he died while they where waiting for ambo)...
And to add to that, his girlfriend was right in front of us, we all had left town at the same time, we where heading home at the end of a long week...4 hours we had to wait, my boss was going to organise for his Dad and him to come down to get all of us away from the accident...
I occasionally get the odd nightmare about it, and I know the other guy did for a while too...

So I would prefer everyone to get home and no one died from any accident...

Sadly, it is a statistic that will always be, humans are fallable and every thing we make, carries our faults, thus the statistics will never go away...

Always keep safe Johntins and everyone else... Never say Goodbye just "See ya later" as that is what should be!

[Wraithe]

After that sad post, I must say, not a Pro, I never ever got paid that well... It would have been nice but I couldn't imagine restaurants each night and different motels... nah!

Just a lot of experience that anyone who spent the time working gets...

I probably had some of the best teachers, all the other truck operators that knew my family... I was probably in the last old school apprentices running North in WA...Thats about the best way to describe the way things went back then... Would stop around sunset(oversize or not) and get a fire going for dinner... Road kill casseroles, bacon an egg breakies, roo stews, fried goanna(four legs mate, better than chooks) and if Mum was there, she would do a bunny casserole... At 25 I got kicked up the backside by another trucky for not holding the cheater bar safely... Had to show respect, he was a little over 70 yo... Still, he booted me pretty hard..

Most of the roads up north still hard dirt and the bitumen parts where only 10 ft wide, so some one either gave way or you shouldered as hard as you could for as much of the bitumen as you could keep... I preffered to pull over and leave them the road(that was drummed into me, called manners)... Some on here probably know where Telfer is, those that don't its east/south east of Marble bar, thats a road that makes you or breaks you...

It is that rough, I seen a triple side tippers going past, last one had quit and laid down on the job, he towed it for about 40 k's upside down... I didnt stop laughing for about 4 hours, god I was sore... The trailer flipped while crossing the Oakover river(the ore pile gave it away, plus the smoothed road for 50 k's)...Lost trailers was another thing, driver thought the truck was running well... Yeh right, 2 trailers missing out of 3, some thing not right...

Jumps Hearn left a trailer about 30k out of Menzies, was so ****ed, he drove all the way to Wiluna, hopped out, went to Pub and got another carton... I pulled an hour later, asked him where his dog trailer was, he walked to back of the lead and then had the gall to ask me to go find it... I had a great sleep, he didnt get back til early morning... He got upset when I fired up and said "I'm going now, so get going ahead"... He was my boss for that trip and after we got to Morning star mine, near Cobra station(thats between Gascoyne Junction and Mount Augustas) and unloaded, he took off to Gascoyne junction.. He was found at the pub there, 2 weeks later when his wife went looking for him.. He couldnt leave the bar, its all that was holding him up...

Mate, I miss the anticts from years go... Like the day a roadtrain crossed the Fortescue bridge and a HQ holden crossed at the same time in the opposite direction... Who said it was a single lane bridge... Truck driver was an amateur customiser, he did a chop side to the HQ, well just narrowed it a bit....

Or Kiwi Rosco trying to move the Carrabin railway bridge, using an Excavator(Cat 245), while travelling down the road at 80 kmh... HE got fined, lost his job and lost his license all in one go... 6 months later he got his job back and his license, but his truck had a big sticker across top of windscreen, it read something like, "check for bridges"...

[JDNSW]

In 1963 I was working near Normanton, and we had a dozer come up from birdsville. He left there with a Jeep on an A-frame behind the dozer, which was on a 6x6 flatbed (fairly small dozer, can't remember what size). He arrived without his Jeep - he stopped for a break and on checking his Jeep, found it was "worn down to the door handles", having apparently got a flat tyre and gone on from there, leaving a trail of bits over a couplle of hundred miles.

[V8Ian]

Nothing ruins a good night's sleep more than being held up at an accident scene for hours, then watching the rescue chopper fly out empty.

[Wraithe]

In 1963 I was working near Normanton, and we had a dozer come up from birdsville. He left there with a Jeep on an A-frame behind the dozer, which was on a 6x6 flatbed (fairly small dozer, can't remember what size). He arrived without his Jeep - he stopped for a break and on checking his Jeep, found it was "worn down to the door handles", having apparently got a flat tyre and gone on from there, leaving a trail of bits over a couplle of hundred miles.

That must be where they got the term JeepKnee... only a short fella...

There some funny things that happen... when a stuff up happens, it can be enjoyable even if its your own....Costly, but enjoyable.

[Wraithe]

But I do have to dobb myself in here...

Was going down a road somewhere between Albany highway and Jandakot...

Travelled through about a month before, it was a straight run.. When I got into Perth in the early hours before sun up, its thick fog and some buggers had put round abouts in, well I went straight through 2 of them, by the time I seen them it was too late, no signs of warning, just a concrete kerb and a sandy centre...

Spoke to another cocky that came in before me and he said he did the same... on the way out, i noticed that the concrete had a lot of vehicle marks through them... The concrete had been laid the night before and tyre marks from trucks and cars straight across in both directions...

Of course I felt like a right goose but hey at least i left my mark like everyone else...

[ATH]

When I was being taught how to drive buses the WA way they told us always to straddle the lanes at intersections where necessary when turning. That and indicate intentions of course, but that didn't stop idiots from squeezing up the left side and abusing you for forcing them off the road or better still, giving their vehicle a good scraping.
Then there's the performance at small roundabouts, I was abused in foul language by a woman with kids in the car when she decides that she can just shoot across my bow when I'm coming form her right taking up the 2 lanes and she hit the kerb very hard trying.
As I said to her "You've got the kids in the car why don't you drive accordingly you idiot".
No accounting for the things they do or don't do right here at all intersections and roundabouts confuse them more than anything else.
AlanH.

[Wraithe]

For those that know WA and particularly, welshpool rd, Bentley...

The truck in my avatar is a freightliner, single steer, three rear axles, third of rear axles is a lazy but it is still a triaxle combination... The two trailers and dolly are all tri's and with the extramass permit at level 3 I could carry 23.5 tonne per each axle group plus 6 tonne for steer... 100 tonne total...

Try turning that onto Sevenoaks st, off Welshpool road while crossing the Railway line, coming from Leach highway in Parth...

I usually could get around in 2 tries, but 3 was all that was needed... If wet then go 4 times... Now each attempt, meant backing up to turn the prime mover that little bit more, but do you think the cars would be smart enough to stay back... After the first few times going around the corner and having them sitting there like idiots, I stopped worrying about what they where doing and just backed up and took another bite... Dont know if I run into any, but hey I needed a car length to back up, they should have left that...The trains where my biggest worry, but I never had the booms come down on me, luckily...

The truck drivers here on ALRO would know what tri-axle groups are like, but tri drives is even worse, and all in 27.5 metres, it looks like its all wheels... And brag time now, try driving that around paddocks carting grain or tipping lime which requires driving in crappy paddocks and undulating country, some times tipping on slopes...Oh I miss working, had fun with that toy...

Being able to go into Perth didnt mean it was easy to drive, just allowed to, so we did... I could come out of Perth with 68 tonne of fertilizer in one go... If the trailers where lighter like some others in the yard, then I possibly could have loaded 72 to 73 Tonne of fert/lime/grain, but I had the heavy trailers and the dog had the tiny tyres...(Boss wanted to ruin my reputation of not getting stuck in a truck off road, "I WON")...

I wish I could still go on the road, retirement sucks!!!!

[Wraithe]

For those that know WA and particularly, welshpool rd, Bentley...

The truck in my avatar is a freightliner, single steer, three rear axles, third of rear axles is a lazy but it is still a triaxle combination... The two trailers and dolly are all tri's and with the extramass permit at level 3 I could carry 23.5 tonne per each axle group plus 6 tonne for steer... 100 tonne total...

Try turning that onto Sevenoaks st, off Welshpool road while crossing the Railway line, coming from Leach highway in Parth...

I usually could get around in 2 tries, but 3 was all that was needed... If wet then go 4 times... Now each attempt, meant backing up to turn the prime mover that little bit more, but do you think the cars would be smart enough to stay back... After the first few times going around the corner and having them sitting there like idiots, I stopped worrying about what they where doing and just backed up and took another bite... Dont know if I run into any, but hey I needed a car length to back up, they should have left that...The trains where my biggest worry, but I never had the booms come down on me, luckily...

The truck drivers here on ALRO would know what tri-axle groups are like, but tri drives is even worse, and all in 27.5 metres, it looks like its all wheels... And brag time now, try driving that around paddocks carting grain or tipping lime which requires driving in crappy paddocks and undulating country, some times tipping on slopes...Oh I miss working, had fun with that toy...

Being able to go into Perth didnt mean it was easy to drive, just allowed to, so we did... I could come out of Perth with 68 tonne of fertilizer in one go... If the trailers where lighter like some others in the yard, then I possibly could have loaded 72 to 73 Tonne of fert/lime/grain, but I had the heavy trailers and the dog had the tiny tyres...(Boss wanted to ruin my reputation of not getting stuck in a truck off road, "I WON")...

I wish I could still go on the road, retirement sucks!!!!

Some thing I didnt point out... If you look at the picture, the left turn has 2 rows of wheel tracks going around into Sevenoaks, thats from trucks... I left tyre marks with the Western Star when delivering in that area, those marks are from smaller roadtrains, same length just 6 wheel prime movers, mostly bogie dollies on the dog...Makes it look like 2 lanes turning.. My tyre marks would show as black marks heading straight to island in Sevenoaks and then going back... For those that are wondering, yes it chopped front tyres out, but couldnt run super singles, she would float then and have no turn...