Are OZ disco 5 suffering from fuel in oil and early service warning issus?

[mhtaucnuk]

I was considering buying a disco 5 TD6 but scared of the poor reliability. On the UK disco 5 forum so many people complained about the fuel in oil resulting in early oil changes, plus frequent Adblue refill could see your beloved disco in dealer garage 4 or 5 times within 6 months. Also there is a concern about engine damage on long run. These issues don't seem to be complained about by OZ owners, what is the magic here? Thanks in advance.

[GP1200]

Yes, I have seen those threads on the U.K. sites too, I'm hoping it's just a very small amount that are having issues, not large numbers.

lets face it with any new vehicle release, not all of them are going to be perfect and is bound to have a few teething issues, and LR have never been at the top of the heap for their reliability.

So if only a few are complaining and they would of delivered a lot of the new D5 in the U.K. It might not be too bad.

just spent a few days in a new D5 HSE, while getting work done on my D4, and can't wait till my new one arrives in February. It was interesting driving them both back to back. It's a really nice place to be, and you can't see its behind while driving it !

i think we have only a few new D5's on the AULRO site at the moment, but haven't heard any stories to be concerned with. ( so far, fingers crossed ) the only bitch has been its looks really
from the old timers..... but we all have to move on, it's starting to grow on me a little and when you are actually driving it, it's a beautiful thing!

Jack

[BobD]

Why would you take it to a dealer to refill Adblue? You would have to be crazy even to buy it from them at $19 for 1.9l when you can get 10l for less than that at places like Bursons.

See the earlier thread re Adblue for the D5. In short, you need to buy a 1.9l container from a dealer and then refill this bottle multiple times from the 10l container. It will do about 500 to 800km on a litre of Adblue. On my DS I have just done my third fill at around 20,000km, with the first carried out free of charge by the dealer, so I have put in 40l myself.

If there is fuel in the oil you would have much more serious problems than just an early oil change.

[mhtaucnuk]

Thanks Jack

I actually test drove both SD4 SE and TD6 HSE, I also test drove a LC 200 on the same day, I loved how the V6 drives, and how it looks as well. The handling on road is way better than the LC200, and the cargo space is much more practical, albeit the interiors are underwhelming. The LR dealer told me they had received no complaints about the FIO issue, so perhaps indeed it only happened on small amount of my17 disco 5s. Hope they put in a fix in my18 ones.

[meremortal]

I was considering buying a disco 5 TD6 but scared of the poor reliability. On the UK disco 5 forum so many people complained about the fuel in oil resulting in early oil changes, plus frequent Adblue refill could see your beloved disco in dealer garage 4 or 5 times within 6 months. Also there is a concern about engine damage on long run. These issues don't seem to be complained about by OZ owners, what is the magic here? Thanks in advance.

My HSE Td6 needed to have an Oil Distillation Service done at 5654 kms on 14/11/2017.

The service reps and sales rep I spoke to were surprised to the point they didn't believe me and I brought it in and showed them the warning prompt.

[GP1200]

My HSE Td6 needed to have an Oil Distillation Service done at 5654 kms on 14/11/2017.

The service reps and sales rep I spoke to were surprised to the point they didn't believe me and I brought it in and showed them the warning prompt.

Sorry not familiar with the term “ Oil Distillation Service “ can you go into more detail please?

thanks Jack

[rick130]

So what is causing the fuel dilution issue?

TD5's have been known to have that issue, it was either injector O ring, injector washer, or the worst case scenario, a cracked fuel rail in the head.

Fuel dilution is never good, your engine needs it's oil to be whole and complete to do its job, and once you have fuel in the oil it needs to be changed quickly, no oil, regardless of cost or specification can mitigate fuel dilution.

[meremortal]

Sorry not familiar with the term “ Oil Distillation Service “ can you go into more detail please?

thanks Jack

Sorry I should have written "Oil Dilution Service"

133144

[meremortal]

So what is causing the fuel dilution issue?

TD5's have been known to have that issue, it was either injector O ring, injector washer, or the worst case scenario, a cracked fuel rail in the head.

Fuel dilution is never good, your engine needs it's oil to be whole and complete to do its job, and once you have fuel in the oil it needs to be changed quickly, no oil, regardless of cost or specification can mitigate fuel dilution.

No idea unfortunately. I'm very much regretting my purchase of this car it's been one long headache so far with a constant raft of ongoing problems. It's my first "expensive" car and I'd been looking forward to it for over 2 years.

I've been through the 7 stages of grief and am now looking for my next car. Pretty gutted.

[PerthDisco]

Sad. I would never have the guts to buy a Ver. 1 model of anything as I’ve worked in design and manufacturing businesses.

[scarry]

Sad. I would never have the guts to buy a Ver. 1 model of anything as I’ve worked in design and manufacturing businesses.

One of the many reasons I should have bought one of the very last of the D4 model.

I did that with the D2;bought a mid 2004 built vehicle one of the very last, and it was fantastic.Resale was also great.

[GP1200]

No idea unfortunately. I'm very much regretting my purchase of this car it's been one long headache so far with a constant raft of ongoing problems. It's my first "expensive" car and I'd been looking forward to it for over 2 years.

I've been through the 7 stages of grief and am now looking for my next car. Pretty gutted.

Real sorry to hear of your ongoing problems,
would you mind if I ask some more questions ?

with any new model, you do have some teething issues, but this oil dilution issue
could very well be a issue that can’t easily be solved.

jack

[meremortal]

Real sorry to hear of your ongoing problems,
would you mind if I ask some more questions ?

with any new model, you do have some teething issues, but this oil dilution issue
could very well be a issue that can’t easily be solved.

jack

Sure ask away.

Yes it doesn't bode well with the other issues I've had with the car. This is the list of things that have been addressed so far

1. Aircon blower on drivers side intermittent fault irrespective of temp setting for drivers side it blows hot air (75C) - it's stopped doing that now but the Aircon doesn't work at all so I am driving around with no aircon - better than 75C hot air though lol - dealer is waitiing on a part. RESOLVED after 4 visits

2. Aircon controller in back seats doesn’t work as expected - only controls the front airflow, not independent airflow for front and rear passengers like in other 7 seat cars like the Kia Grand Carnival or Toyota Kluger or other cars with multi-zone climate control.UNRESOLVED

3. Ride height occasionally/intermittently gets stuck on the lowest setting doesn’t return to normal height.RESOLVED

4. Stereo in incontrol apps cut out constantly - tried different cables - phone works fine on other Landrover products. I don't use the incontrol apps anymore - gave up. UNRESOLVED

5. Reversing camera doesn’t come up or comes up in a much smaller window sometimes and the reversing sensor tone becomes garbled and crackly UNRESOLVED

6. The car also needed an Oil Dilution service which was unexpected - it had only done 5654 kms SERVICE DONE

7. Battery cover plastic connector fell off - I noticed a rattling in the rear of the cabin the battery cover was hanging off there is a little plastic lug is glued on that has fallen off (very minor but still brand new car) NEW COVER ORDERED GETTING REPLACED TODAY

It also needed a long list of software updates and I'm monitoring it to see how it goes.


I don't use the bluetooth to listen to music anymore as it's so flakey. Sometimes it comes up in the media options, sometimes it doesn't. It's too much of a rigamarole on shorter trips. It's always a pleasant surprise when the bluetooth music is actually working. Incontrol apps never worked more than 50% of the time and now it's just got worse after the updates that were made. One of the two USB options for the incontrol apps doesn't work at all. My iphone is fine it works in other cars perfectly. I've tried numerous new iphone usb cables of course as well for the incontrol apps.

I know the electrical/stereo/camera issues will get resolved eventually but I didn't spend this much for a car that I've needed to take back more times in it's 4 months of ownership than I took my last car back in 6 years. I don't have time for this you know...

The number one problem that is unfixable unfortunately (without a costly retrofit) is that extremely poor airconditioning in the 2nd and 3rd row seats. No vents in the 3rd row, tiny vents in the 2nd row and no ability to independently control airflow in the 2nd and 3rd row seats. I think the 4 Zone Aircon should be standard in Australia or heavily upsold. I literally didn't imagine the 2nd and 3rd row 3 zone aircon could be so bad.



133194133198133195133196133197

[guthrie]

Stereo in incontrol apps cut out constantly - tried different cables - phone works fine on other Landrover products. I don't use the incontrol apps anymore - gave up. UNRESOLVED
I was disappointed that my Discovery Sport doesnt have the incontrol apps (so Im plugging my iphone into the USB to get music). Sounds like Im not missing anything.


The car also needed an Oil Dilution service which was unexpected - it had only done 5654 kms SERVICE DONE
Looks like you arent the only one with this issue. I assume you have seen all the posts on the UK Disco 5 and UK Discovery Sport forums complaining about this issue?

[meremortal]

I was disappointed that my Discovery Sport doesnt have the incontrol apps (so Im plugging my iphone into the USB to get music). Sounds like Im not missing anything.

Nope not missing a thing. I notice it's standard with the Landrover Discovery MY18 now and I paid $377.62 for it (more salt in the wound) this is what I get:

133209133210133211133212




Looks like you arent the only one with this issue. I assume you have seen all the posts on the UK Disco 5 and UK Discovery Sport forums complaining about this issue?

Briefly - focused on fixing the stereo at the moment (before that was the A/C).

Once I've got everything actually working I'll look into it in more detail. :(

[GP1200]

thanks Meremortal,

I think your reply covered off the questions pretty well, the oil dilution issue is the nasty one I'm really concerned with.
I don't think no amount of software updates are going to fix that sort of problem, its going to there for the life of the car,
unless someone can make me feel good that they can fix it ?


I cover a lot of KM and will be back at the dealership every 6 to 8 weeks for a oil change, is just not going to work for me,
without even bringing into the equation engine life, re-sale value.,

[shanegtr]

One question worth thinking about, how does the car come up with the oil dilution fault? Is it a calculated fault based on certain parameters or is it an actual sensor in the oil? If its a calculated fault then it would be worth getting some oil analysis done to find out what levels of fuel dilution are in fact getting into the oil.
I thought I read somewhere (on here most likely) that the D5 dosent have a DPF? It would be logical to get an oil dilution issue with a DPF equiped vehicle as they do dump extra fuel in for a regen cycle, and perhaps your vehicle use is not right to allow for the DPF regen times. But if theres no DPF then I would be thinking its more of a possible injector issue.

[GP1200]

One question worth thinking about, how does the car come up with the oil dilution fault? Is it a calculated fault based on certain parameters or is it an actual sensor in the oil? If its a calculated fault then it would be worth getting some oil analysis done to find out what levels of fuel dilution are in fact getting into the oil.
I thought I read somewhere (on here most likely) that the D5 dosent have a DPF? It would be logical to get an oil dilution issue with a DPF equiped vehicle as they do dump extra fuel in for a regen cycle, and perhaps your vehicle use is not right to allow for the DPF regen times. But if theres no DPF then I would be thinking its more of a possible injector issue.

I thought it had the DPF and Ad-Blue, but will have a look tonight in the specs,

[meremortal]

thanks Meremortal,

I think your reply covered off the questions pretty well, the oil dilution issue is the nasty one I'm really concerned with.
I don't think no amount of software updates are going to fix that sort of problem, its going to there for the life of the car,
unless someone can make me feel good that they can fix it ?


I cover a lot of KM and will be back at the dealership every 6 to 8 weeks for a oil change, is just not going to work for me,
without even bringing into the equation engine life, re-sale value.,

Potentially very nasty - not sure if it's over protective software based on the "driving style" or a genuine problem. Either way it's bad news. I'll be taking it up further once I've got the rest of the faults resolved.

Fuel dilution of engine oil: causes and effects (http://www.lubricants.total.com/news/fuel-dilution-of-engine-oil-causes-and-effects.html)

Definitely won't be recommending the All New Discovery to anyone. My car is a laughing stock now for my friends and work colleagues and a source of stress and disappointment for my family. I know it's not a one off either as an exactly the same model of mine and the same colour had the same issues as mine (no aircon and lots of electrical faults - I spoke to the driver when mine was in) was bricked by software updates so it needed an entirely new computer/controller of some sort. Atleast mine was driveable after the updates (without aircon but still drove).

[meremortal]

One question worth thinking about, how does the car come up with the oil dilution fault? Is it a calculated fault based on certain parameters or is it an actual sensor in the oil? If its a calculated fault then it would be worth getting some oil analysis done to find out what levels of fuel dilution are in fact getting into the oil.
I thought I read somewhere (on here most likely) that the D5 dosent have a DPF? It would be logical to get an oil dilution issue with a DPF equiped vehicle as they do dump extra fuel in for a regen cycle, and perhaps your vehicle use is not right to allow for the DPF regen times. But if theres no DPF then I would be thinking its more of a possible injector issue.

Not sure - the service rep said mine was the first to come in with the issue and they genuinely weren't sure what the cause was - he intimated it might be "driving style", if that's the case the car isn't fit for purpose. I use it as I have used every car I've ever had. Sometimes short runs 15 minutes or less, sometimes longer from GC to Brisbane or Northern NSW 1 hour or more. I will be researching it more fully once I have the rest of the faults sorted.

[guthrie]

Not sure - the service rep said mine was the first to come in with the issue and they genuinely weren't sure what the cause was

Going from reports on disco5.co.uk its a known issue.

Have a look at the service notice attached 133254

[meremortal]

Going from reports on disco5.co.uk its a known issue.

Have a look at the service notice attached 133254

Thanks! Read it all. NOT GOOD!

[shanegtr]

Reading that service bulliten it sounds to me to be a calculated value.

Not sure - the service rep said mine was the first to come in with the issue and they genuinely weren't sure what the cause was - he intimated it might be "driving style", if that's the case the car isn't fit for purpose. I use it as I have used every car I've ever had. Sometimes short runs 15 minutes or less, sometimes longer from GC to Brisbane or Northern NSW 1 hour or more. I will be researching it more fully once I have the rest of the faults sorted.
So, how many other cars have you had that had DPF, or is this your first? Short runs are killers of DPF and IMHO for a city run around car i belive a petrol engine now will be far better choice. In your case from that sevice bulliten where the very first cause listed for the high dilution is a large number of partial regen cycles so your most likely not running the car hard enough and long enough for effective regen.
Heres an interesting video I found on youtube years ago, talking about DPF operation and how it affects the oil. Also explains a few different regen systems - its not to hard to gues the likely way that land rover has choosen for the regen:
Understanding Diesel DPF Regeneration - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNO-oUHmKXU)
And another interesting one from "autoexpert". He does bring up some good points in that no dealer sales people mention about the driving styles required for DPF equipped vehicles
The Truth About Diesel Particulate Filter Problems (DPF Problems) | Auto Expert John Cadogan - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bOlDFFhuPM)

[trout1105]

So we have a vehicle that has designed for and has targeted the yuppy townies that only do short runs fitted with an engine that has real problems being operated this way, A pretty Stupid idea don't you think?
If an engine that is virtually new has this oil dilution problem already then it doesn't bode well for the longevity of the engine as this diluted oil will have real problems lubricating the engine correctly and critical damage is an almost certainty if it is ignored.
Personally I wouldn't touch these with a pointed stick until this mess is sorted out.

[meremortal]

Reading that service bulliten it sounds to me to be a calculated value.

So, how many other cars have you had that had DPF, or is this your first? Short runs are killers of DPF and IMHO for a city run around car i belive a petrol engine now will be far better choice. In your case from that sevice bulliten where the very first cause listed for the high dilution is a large number of partial regen cycles so your most likely not running the car hard enough and long enough for effective regen.
Heres an interesting video I found on youtube years ago, talking about DPF operation and how it affects the oil. Also explains a few different regen systems - its not to hard to gues the likely way that land rover has choosen for the regen:
Understanding Diesel DPF Regeneration - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNO-oUHmKXU)
And another interesting one from "autoexpert". He does bring up some good points in that no dealer sales people mention about the driving styles required for DPF equipped vehicles
The Truth About Diesel Particulate Filter Problems (DPF Problems) | Auto Expert John Cadogan - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bOlDFFhuPM)

Thanks for the vids I'll have a look when I get a chance.
We've had two diesel cars before this BMW X5 and X3 - neither had this issue. Both driven mainly by my wife. I've always had petrol. This is my first diesel car and my first "luxury" car.


So we have a vehicle that has designed for and has targeted the yuppy townies that only do short runs fitted with an engine that has real problems being operated this way, A pretty Stupid idea don't you think?
If an engine that is virtually new has this oil dilution problem already then it doesn't bode well for the longevity of the engine as this diluted oil will have real problems lubricating the engine correctly and critical damage is an almost certainty if it is ignored.
Personally I wouldn't touch these with a pointed stick until this mess is sorted out.

However as trout says this is a car sold to school run Mum's and real estate agents and everyone in between. If it's not fit for purpose, it's not fit for purpose.

[shanegtr]

So we have a vehicle that has designed for and has targeted the yuppy townies that only do short runs fitted with an engine that has real problems being operated this way, A pretty Stupid idea don't you think?
If an engine that is virtually new has this oil dilution problem already then it doesn't bode well for the longevity of the engine as this diluted oil will have real problems lubricating the engine correctly and critical damage is an almost certainty if it is ignored.
Personally I wouldn't touch these with a pointed stick until this mess is sorted out.
DPF's are a side effect of increasing emission targets/specs so at this stage without further technology thats what we are stuck with if you want a new diesel vehicle. So really LR is no worse off than everyone else using a DPF. However in my first video I posted there are better ways to activate a regen cycle by using a differential pressure on the DPF and the extra fuel doesnt have to be injected into the cylinders (its jsut conveniant as they are already there), would eliminate unnessasary injection of extra diesel into the engine.
From what I've seen, most cars with DPF mainly just have a blocked DPF warning, not an oil dilution warning - so I'll bet theres a few diesel engines out there that may very well have similar issues, however the owners may have no idea its going on. As the disco warning seems to me to be a calculated warning then you really have no idea if the actual dilution rates are more or less then the specified 6.1% without testing the oil. But yes left unchecked it will have detrimental effects on engine life, however it seems LR has done something to mitigate that somewhat.

[GP1200]

Hi Shane,
agree with all your points, as I have been living with EGR, DPF”s, Ad-Blue and all that gear in my work life for 5 or 6 years, what is interesting is a lot of these Discovery’s have been driven
in the UK at motorway speeds and very little short city runs, and have the oil dilution issues with very low miles.

Also from my work life with big diesels, running heavy and hot and long does not make the emission system work any better, if it’s a bad design, it’s not going to give you much joy.

with the emissions laws the way they are, we are stuck with DPF”s and Ad-Blue for the foreseeable future, on the trucks they have made big improvements ( killed off EGR for the time being till 2021 I think )

maybe big petrol engines might make a comeback!

jack

[Arapiles]

maybe big petrol engines might make a comeback!


Well ... range might be an issue - I came close to buying a Y62 Patrol Ti-L but the economy was 50% worse than my diesel D4s in normal use and much worse in sand. I worked out that to cross the Simpson, to be safe I would need a total of about 300 litres (!!)(yes, 30l/100km), whereas a D4 can do it on about 120 litres.

[PerthDisco]

Check the news and you will see Diesel engines are on death row in Europe. Hard to believe a lot of investment is going into them. Hybrid electric petrols will do well.

Emission regs have created a Frankenstein monster as it is. A VW exec has just just been imprisoned in the USA.

The D5 engines with Adblue etc are the last roll of the dice for diesel imho. More a band aid than a solution.

This is not great for us as we will get what the rest of the world gets regardless of our wide open spaces.

Big V8 petrols have already gone on top end performance cars towards turbo 6’s.

Our current cars could very quickly be a memory just like engines with points and distributors.

[Mac_and_Cheese]

Reading that service notice it seems to only affect the 6 Cylinders, does anyone know if this is also affecting the 4 pots?

Cheers, Tom

[meremortal]

Reading that service notice it seems to only affect the 6 Cylinders, does anyone know if this is also affecting the 4 pots?

Cheers, Tom

Yes I spoke to the service technician and a salesman at my dealership this morning and it is affecting 4 cylinders as well.

[Mac_and_Cheese]

Yes I spoke to the service technician and a salesman at my dealership this morning and it is affecting 4 cylinders as well.

Damn, thanks mate

[~Rich~]

Engine Oil Diluted With Fuel (the facts for 2018) - YouTube (https://youtu.be/nMX94zarLs4)
Maybe usage is the cause. Just like DPF it needs a good run often!

[verydiscosport]

DPF's are a side effect of increasing emission targets/specs so at this stage without further technology thats what we are stuck with if you want a new diesel vehicle. So really LR is no worse off than everyone else using a DPF. However in my first video I posted there are better ways to activate a regen cycle by using a differential pressure on the DPF and the extra fuel doesnt have to be injected into the cylinders (its jsut conveniant as they are already there), would eliminate unnessasary injection of extra diesel into the engine.
From what I've seen, most cars with DPF mainly just have a blocked DPF warning, not an oil dilution warning - so I'll bet theres a few diesel engines out there that may very well have similar issues, however the owners may have no idea its going on. As the disco warning seems to me to be a calculated warning then you really have no idea if the actual dilution rates are more or less then the specified 6.1% without testing the oil. But yes left unchecked it will have detrimental effects on engine life, however it seems LR has done something to mitigate that somewhat.

I have been actively involved in this issue in the UK and you'll find hundreds of my posts on the discosportforums.co.uk website. Working with other forum members and using information gained directly from company engineers, JLR executive office letters, presentations on the soot-burning performance of the selective catalytic reduction filter coatings from Johnson Matthey and other sources we produced a working theory as to why the DS is worse in this regard than other diesels. The findings were then independently checked and confirmed by DEKRA and a popular motoring column in the Daily Telegraph and they confirmed that this is the issue:

* A diesel oxidation catalyst positioned in-line about 12-15 inches after the turbo outlet is too cold in normal driving to effect any passive reduction whatsoever.
* The three-way SCRF now collects practically all the soot and needs an active regeneration every 200-250 miles (sometimes less).
* The SCRF is so far back (after the DEF injection and about 36 inches from the turbo outlet) that it takes a minimum of 10 minutes of post injection to get up to the 580-600 degrees required for soot burning to start.
* The SCRF must be kept at this temperature for a further 20-30 minutes to complete the burn of a full soot load (36%).
* A new definition of "Normal driving" from JLR (to avoid clogging the DPF) is journeys of minimum 15 to 30 minutes at a speed of between 31 and 62 mph including "some journeys of one hour".
* A blast up the motorway will not clear the SCRF because its too far back.
* The oil dilution is a direct consequence of the higher than expected active regeneration activity caused by absence of passive regeneration.
* 70% of all vehicles in a survey required an oil change before 12,600 miles due to oil dilution.

Looking at the exhaust layout for the TDV6 you have the same loosely-coupled DOC-DEF-SCRF configuration as in the 2.0 litre DS and Evoque. It might be instructive to look at the work that's been done on the DS then compare the hardware and architecture there to that of the D5 to assess whether the reason for the early service due to oil dilution is likely to be the same. The problem is present in all the transverse-mounted engines with this exhaust layout but (in the UK at least) so far it has NOT been reported on the in-line 2.0 litre D5 where the engine is mounted in-line.

I described this problem in my rejection letter to JLR and said that from my perspective this issue rendered the vehicle "not of satisfactory quality" and "not as described" in the brochure. In the UK there is legislation granting a right to reject faulty goods in these circumstances and I had no hesitation in using it to get out of a potentially very expensive situation. The number of secondary failures is what worried me the most; at the time of the rejection the vehicle had done less than 10,000 miles and needed £4,000 worth of work to change the whole SCRF, the LP EGR valve and the LP EGR heat exchanger.

The company still refuses to acknowledge the problem but most people with any degree of technical understanding are now quite satisfied that the above description adequately explains Stuart Woodcock's use of the words "hardware and architecture differences" between this layout and that to be found in the XE/XF which was the basis of his comparison. There is much more to be explained about WHY this happened but much of this is still speculation at present.

Best regards

[shanegtr]

I have been actively involved in this issue in the UK and you'll find hundreds of my posts on the discosportforums.co.uk website. Working with other forum members and using information gained directly from company engineers, JLR executive office letters, presentations on the soot-burning performance of the selective catalytic reduction filter coatings from Johnson Matthey and other sources we produced a working theory as to why the DS is worse in this regard than other diesels. The findings were then independently checked and confirmed by DEKRA and a popular motoring column in the Daily Telegraph and they confirmed that this is the issue:

* A diesel oxidation catalyst positioned in-line about 12-15 inches after the turbo outlet is too cold in normal driving to effect any passive reduction whatsoever.
* The three-way SCRF now collects practically all the soot and needs an active regeneration every 200-250 miles (sometimes less).
* The SCRF is so far back (after the DEF injection and about 36 inches from the turbo outlet) that it takes a minimum of 10 minutes of post injection to get up to the 580-600 degrees required for soot burning to start.
* The SCRF must be kept at this temperature for a further 20-30 minutes to complete the burn of a full soot load (36%).
* A new definition of "Normal driving" from JLR (to avoid clogging the DPF) is journeys of minimum 15 to 30 minutes at a speed of between 31 and 62 mph including "some journeys of one hour".
* A blast up the motorway will not clear the SCRF because its too far back.
* The oil dilution is a direct consequence of the higher than expected active regeneration activity caused by absence of passive regeneration.
* 70% of all vehicles in a survey required an oil change before 12,600 miles due to oil dilution.

Looking at the exhaust layout for the TDV6 you have the same loosely-coupled DOC-DEF-SCRF configuration as in the 2.0 litre DS and Evoque. It might be instructive to look at the work that's been done on the DS then compare the hardware and architecture there to that of the D5 to assess whether the reason for the early service due to oil dilution is likely to be the same. The problem is present in all the transverse-mounted engines with this exhaust layout but (in the UK at least) so far it has NOT been reported on the in-line 2.0 litre D5 where the engine is mounted in-line.

I described this problem in my rejection letter to JLR and said that from my perspective this issue rendered the vehicle "not of satisfactory quality" and "not as described" in the brochure. In the UK there is legislation granting a right to reject faulty goods in these circumstances and I had no hesitation in using it to get out of a potentially very expensive situation. The number of secondary failures is what worried me the most; at the time of the rejection the vehicle had done less than 10,000 miles and needed £4,000 worth of work to change the whole SCRF, the LP EGR valve and the LP EGR heat exchanger.

The company still refuses to acknowledge the problem but most people with any degree of technical understanding are now quite satisfied that the above description adequately explains Stuart Woodcock's use of the words "hardware and architecture differences" between this layout and that to be found in the XE/XF which was the basis of his comparison. There is much more to be explained about WHY this happened but much of this is still speculation at present.

Best regards
Thanks for that write up, throws a bit more vehicle specific information at the current issue.

[rick130]

Thanks for that.

[Celtoid]

I have been actively involved in this issue in the UK and you'll find hundreds of my posts on the discosportforums.co.uk website. Working with other forum members and using information gained directly from company engineers, JLR executive office letters, presentations on the soot-burning performance of the selective catalytic reduction filter coatings from Johnson Matthey and other sources we produced a working theory as to why the DS is worse in this regard than other diesels. The findings were then independently checked and confirmed by DEKRA and a popular motoring column in the Daily Telegraph and they confirmed that this is the issue:

* A diesel oxidation catalyst positioned in-line about 12-15 inches after the turbo outlet is too cold in normal driving to effect any passive reduction whatsoever.
* The three-way SCRF now collects practically all the soot and needs an active regeneration every 200-250 miles (sometimes less).
* The SCRF is so far back (after the DEF injection and about 36 inches from the turbo outlet) that it takes a minimum of 10 minutes of post injection to get up to the 580-600 degrees required for soot burning to start.
* The SCRF must be kept at this temperature for a further 20-30 minutes to complete the burn of a full soot load (36%).
* A new definition of "Normal driving" from JLR (to avoid clogging the DPF) is journeys of minimum 15 to 30 minutes at a speed of between 31 and 62 mph including "some journeys of one hour".
* A blast up the motorway will not clear the SCRF because its too far back.
* The oil dilution is a direct consequence of the higher than expected active regeneration activity caused by absence of passive regeneration.
* 70% of all vehicles in a survey required an oil change before 12,600 miles due to oil dilution.

Looking at the exhaust layout for the TDV6 you have the same loosely-coupled DOC-DEF-SCRF configuration as in the 2.0 litre DS and Evoque. It might be instructive to look at the work that's been done on the DS then compare the hardware and architecture there to that of the D5 to assess whether the reason for the early service due to oil dilution is likely to be the same. The problem is present in all the transverse-mounted engines with this exhaust layout but (in the UK at least) so far it has NOT been reported on the in-line 2.0 litre D5 where the engine is mounted in-line.

I described this problem in my rejection letter to JLR and said that from my perspective this issue rendered the vehicle "not of satisfactory quality" and "not as described" in the brochure. In the UK there is legislation granting a right to reject faulty goods in these circumstances and I had no hesitation in using it to get out of a potentially very expensive situation. The number of secondary failures is what worried me the most; at the time of the rejection the vehicle had done less than 10,000 miles and needed £4,000 worth of work to change the whole SCRF, the LP EGR valve and the LP EGR heat exchanger.

The company still refuses to acknowledge the problem but most people with any degree of technical understanding are now quite satisfied that the above description adequately explains Stuart Woodcock's use of the words "hardware and architecture differences" between this layout and that to be found in the XE/XF which was the basis of his comparison. There is much more to be explained about WHY this happened but much of this is still speculation at present.

Best regards

Hi,

Thanks for that info.

Are you saying the set-up is once again the issue causing failures that do not occur on same or similar components in other vehicles (Jaguars)?

Don't quote me as my input is heresy through forums but I owned one of the first D4s in Australia and they had all sorts of issues with 'blown' turbos.....which was bemusing since similar equipment had been used in other JLR products without issue. Turns out the four 'off-chassis experiences' I had ....and thousands of other D4 owners had, was in fact, not the turbos at all. It was something to do with the set-up on the V6 Twin Turbo specific to the D4. Is this history repeating itself?

In the end the problem really was very minor but was exacerbated by a complete lack of knowledge in Australia of the car that was being sold and supported. It was a common issue around all the niggly concerns I had with my car....JLR in Australia, just didn't have the experience, the training or the parts.

In time nothing was really that wrong with the car and once the knowledge base improved and spares availability got up to speed (now surpassing most brands) it was an awesome machine to own .... DPF worked fine too :-)

D4 number 2 has been flawless.... :-)

It's very disappointing that lessons maybe getting relearned, but for this OP and others with concerns, if the trend stays the same the issues will get worked out as the things I've experienced before get addressed.

Fingers crossed guys :-)

[verydiscosport]

Hi,

Thanks for that info.

Are you saying the set-up is once again the issue causing failures that do not occur on same or similar components in other vehicles (Jaguars)?



In JLRP00100 the "hardware and architecture" comparison is made between XE/XF (in-line Ingenium) on the one hand and DS, Evoque, D5, RR and RRS transverse diesels on the other. The XF uses a close-coupled DPF which gets very hot due to its proximity to the engine so that passive regeneration works properly, then active regeneration is quick and effective when required to empty the filter. The explanation I gave above is believed to be valid for the Evoque and DS 2.0L diesels with the transverse Ingenium engine only and needs some refinement for the D5.

The reason is that the 3.0L V6 exhaust architecture on the D5 is not the same as on the smaller SUVs. The components on the DS/Evo (backwards from the engine) are DOC-DEF-SCRF, the engine manual for the D5 TDV6 indicates that it has CAT-DPF-DEF-SCR. The DPF is still a considerable distance back from the hot turbo outlet so the narrative account in the SCN still applies, but the remainder of our understanding (the "how", as opposed to the "what") comes from confidential comments reportedly made by a JLR engineer in the context of the DS and Evoque. His comments don't necessarily shed any more light on problems with the bigger vehicles. Here's the architecture of the D5 TDV6 3.0L exhaust next to that of the Discovery Sport - on the latter 17.50.01 is the DOC (oxidation catalyst) and 17.50.20 is the SCRF (for the uninitiated this is a combined 3-way selective catalytic reducer on filter device (SCRoF)).

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/attach/jpg.gif



https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/attach/jpg.gif

[verydiscosport]

SSM73697 - Discovery Sport Forums (https://www.discosportforums.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=7558)
N128 January 2018 - Discovery Sport Forums (https://www.discosportforums.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=7555)
N025v4 - Discovery Sport Forums (https://www.discosportforums.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=7557)
N118 - Discovery Sport Forums (https://www.discosportforums.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=7556)

Links to recent JLR publications providing more on the Ingenium 2.0 L diesel problems.

[meremortal]

I have been actively involved in this issue in the UK and you'll find hundreds of my posts on the discosportforums.co.uk website. Working with other forum members and using information gained directly from company engineers, JLR executive office letters, presentations on the soot-burning performance of the selective catalytic reduction filter coatings from Johnson Matthey and other sources we produced a working theory as to why the DS is worse in this regard than other diesels. The findings were then independently checked and confirmed by DEKRA and a popular motoring column in the Daily Telegraph and they confirmed that this is the issue:

* A diesel oxidation catalyst positioned in-line about 12-15 inches after the turbo outlet is too cold in normal driving to effect any passive reduction whatsoever.
* The three-way SCRF now collects practically all the soot and needs an active regeneration every 200-250 miles (sometimes less).
* The SCRF is so far back (after the DEF injection and about 36 inches from the turbo outlet) that it takes a minimum of 10 minutes of post injection to get up to the 580-600 degrees required for soot burning to start.
* The SCRF must be kept at this temperature for a further 20-30 minutes to complete the burn of a full soot load (36%).
* A new definition of "Normal driving" from JLR (to avoid clogging the DPF) is journeys of minimum 15 to 30 minutes at a speed of between 31 and 62 mph including "some journeys of one hour".
* A blast up the motorway will not clear the SCRF because its too far back.
* The oil dilution is a direct consequence of the higher than expected active regeneration activity caused by absence of passive regeneration.
* 70% of all vehicles in a survey required an oil change before 12,600 miles due to oil dilution.

Looking at the exhaust layout for the TDV6 you have the same loosely-coupled DOC-DEF-SCRF configuration as in the 2.0 litre DS and Evoque. It might be instructive to look at the work that's been done on the DS then compare the hardware and architecture there to that of the D5 to assess whether the reason for the early service due to oil dilution is likely to be the same. The problem is present in all the transverse-mounted engines with this exhaust layout but (in the UK at least) so far it has NOT been reported on the in-line 2.0 litre D5 where the engine is mounted in-line.

I described this problem in my rejection letter to JLR and said that from my perspective this issue rendered the vehicle "not of satisfactory quality" and "not as described" in the brochure. In the UK there is legislation granting a right to reject faulty goods in these circumstances and I had no hesitation in using it to get out of a potentially very expensive situation. The number of secondary failures is what worried me the most; at the time of the rejection the vehicle had done less than 10,000 miles and needed £4,000 worth of work to change the whole SCRF, the LP EGR valve and the LP EGR heat exchanger.

The company still refuses to acknowledge the problem but most people with any degree of technical understanding are now quite satisfied that the above description adequately explains Stuart Woodcock's use of the words "hardware and architecture differences" between this layout and that to be found in the XE/XF which was the basis of his comparison. There is much more to be explained about WHY this happened but much of this is still speculation at present.

Best regards

Thanks so much for this incredibly comprehensive explanation of the issue. My All New Discovery is in again today getting it's second oil change. It's done 9740 kms. The service technician assures me it's over eager software and will be resolved with a software update. I'm less inclined to believe him and more inclined to believe that it is a genuine fault with the car and that it literally is not fit for purpose for my style of driving which is very much what you describe. Will be prepping for legal action following this service unfortunately. Last thing I want to be doing at the moment but I also don't want a car that needs an oil change every 5000kms.

[Garfield]

No idea unfortunately. I'm very much regretting my purchase of this car it's been one long headache so far with a constant raft of ongoing problems. It's my first "expensive" car and I'd been looking forward to it for over 2 years.

I've been through the 7 stages of grief and am now looking for my next car. Pretty gutted.

Hi Meremortal, it is disappointing that your first experience with your first "expensive" car has not been great, and I too would be greatly concerned with fuel in the oil.

After working in the automotive industry for the first 8 years after I left school, I learnt that it usually takes about 2 years from when a new model is released for all the major mechanical "bugs" to be removed from that particular model. I took my 2 year old Disco 4 in for service today for its 50,000km with no issues. , but saying that it was the end of a model D4 run out and I have been very fortunate with hassle free driving. Not that I do a lot of 4WDing but its been up and down its fair share of medium grade tracks, through rivers and carried the family around the country side without fault.

I just hope the rest of your ownership of your D5 will be more rewarding and hassle free.

[shanegtr]

Thanks so much for this incredibly comprehensive explanation of the issue. My All New Discovery is in again today getting it's second oil change. It's done 9740 kms. The service technician assures me it's over eager software and will be resolved with a software update. I'm less inclined to believe him and more inclined to believe that it is a genuine fault with the car and that it literally is not fit for purpose for my style of driving which is very much what you describe. Will be prepping for legal action following this service unfortunately. Last thing I want to be doing at the moment but I also don't want a car that needs an oil change every 5000kms.
You'll need to get the oil sampled to find out if it is actually over eager software or if it is flagging the issue correctly. You could also use a blotter test which is easy if you have a dipstick - but not being familiar with the new engines I have no idea if they have one or not. If its something that you need to get the device guys to do then its probably simpler to give them a sample bottle at service time

[Bilby]

How do you do the blotter test?


V6 here, 3500 kms so far no issues (touch wood).

[PhilipA]

I am a bit mystified as to why LR decided to not follow GMs lead and use an injector situated on or near the DPF to regenerate it.

I saw a Utube video where the various methods were discussed and to me as a DPF layman it looked to be a "no brainer" to use the GM method ,as it does not involve diluting the oil.

My only thought is that GM have a patent on their method and would charge a licence fee.

Of course people are going to want to drive their car in urban areas.
I wonder if LR will be forced to change the whole system as it looks like a crock at the moment.

[shanegtr]

How do you do the blotter test?


V6 here, 3500 kms so far no issues (touch wood).
you can use a business card or specific blotter paper. Put a drop of oil onto it and watch what happens. If fuel dilution is present then you should get a black circle with a lighter yellow ring around it - a very light narrow ring around the spot would be normal, but if it spreads out then theres fuel dilution present. Quick google search I found this image.
137679

[D5hse]

Last week mine went from 12,600 to service to service due now in 2 days,called the dealership and they had it for 2 hours,came back clean and 13,300 to service.might get excited and see if they done anything under the bonnet tomorrow.

[D5hse]

Checked today no oil change,software update done ? driving style - no stop start city, ours usually sits for 9 days then do 1,000 km + in a day or 2 then sits again for 9.within 4 km of home doing 110 for a few hours,when towing the van same. have filled def 10 litres once in 11,000km

[Oakey17]

I see there is already a lot of info about the oil dilution service. It seems that there is a service campaign to change it free of charge the first time, but cost the owners every one since. I love my disco and had to fill adblue at 9k. I have a hse td6 and paid for the service plan as well.

[andhad]

So my car went from 1500km until service to 0km over 2 days last week, with 8700km on the clock. It went in today for an assessment and I was told it was a sensor and software issue without an oil change required. Does anyone know how to get an oil sample without draining it as there is no dipstick on the TD6?

[Geedublya]

So my car went from 1500km until service to 0km over 2 days last week, with 8700km on the clock. It went in today for an assessment and I was told it was a sensor and software issue without an oil change required. Does anyone know how to get an oil sample without draining it as there is no dipstick on the TD6?


If it is like my D4 there is a tube inside the oil filler that leads to the bottom of the sump for evacuating the oil. You can put a vacuum on the tube and aspirate some oil out using a pump or a large syringe.

[PhilipA]

I was talking to the mechanic who does my roadworthies yesterday and he told me many of the new diesels with DPF are having the same problem.
He said that Mazda 3 diesels particularly make lots of oil and have an "X" above the full mark that should not be exceeded. LOL
As an aside he is somewhat of a Subaru expert and told me that the new Subaru engines with timing chains are using prodigious amounts of oil so much so that 2 customers had run out before the next service was due and been given new engines by Subaru, and the new engines were using heaps of oil.
Regards Philip A

[IndusD4]

My 2007 Pathfinder 2.5 diesel with DPF was doing the same thing, oil level just kept going up. I was happy to change it for a non-DPF D4!

Ron

[Oakey17]

Hello,
Wondering if anyone else has had an issue with the boot tray/seat folding down? Can hear motor working but no movement.

[GP1200]

Hello,
Wondering if anyone else has had an issue with the boot tray/seat folding down? Can hear motor working but no movement.

Has been a couple of failures on the UK D5 site of the folding tray / seat assembly.

so looks like it’s not a isolated incident.

jack

[DazzaTD5]

*DPF (or DPD) technology is not something new, its just been poorly implemented in the light vehicle industry to quickly meet high emission standards.
*DEF (diesel exhaust fluid) .... or adblue technology is the next step after DPF (see above) technology and vehicles dont use both.
*One big thing an engine needs to overcome to meet better emissions is internal friction (of the engine parts). To reduce internal friction manufacturers do two main things. Use a thinner oil and increase the clearances of internal parts. The down side of this is a greater consumption of oil and the likely hood of greater fuel bypass leading to oil dilution.
*Oil dilution from fuel bypass and oil consumption has always been part of a internal combustion engine.
*Typically older designs of engines are suffering more of the oil consumption and oil dilution issue.
*The two obvious ones that come to mind are the V8 diesel as used in the Land Cruisers and the V6 diesel as used in the Discovery (5). Both are realistically (due to modern emission standards) past their design life.

[outasight]

15,000 kms & my 3.0 tdv6 has just come up with the Oil Service message for the second time in it's life.
The oil was changed & a software patch loaded last time.
It has also just reached 2,400km to the AdBlue being empty for the second time.

As you can see from the low AdBlue usage - I don't do short trips & do a lot of 80 km/h+ driving.

It's going to be interesting ...

[IndusD4]

Mine has been in twice for an additional oil change, at 3 months (4,500km) and 6 months (10,000km). The first oil change was a week before the N222 campaign came out, this was applied earlier this month with the second oil change under warranty.

I've done about 1,500km since the service and the service indicator has gone down by a similar amount. There's hope, it looks like the early service warning is fixed. As for the additional oil changes, people that had had their oil tested report a lot of wear metals the first time, settling down after subsequent oil changes. So I think it's actually good for the car to have its oil changed early.

Ron

[outasight]

If it cannot even make 10,000 km between FREE changes - then that is a major issue & nuisance, let alone the potential longevity issues to the engines.

[IndusD4]

DEF (diesel exhaust fluid) .... or adblue technology is the next step after DPF (see above) technology and vehicles dont use both.

I'm pretty certain that the exhaust system of the D5 uses a DPF as well as a SCR, the latter using adBlue/DEF. I'll see if I can dig out a diagram from the workshop manual.

Ron

[IndusD4]

Found it.

147751

147752

147753

[outasight]

Oil replaced again today at 15k after being done at 8.5k - both specifically due to dilution.
AdBlue topped up for only the second time(which is a positive indication of my "driving style" & journey types when related to the dilution issue).

Also noted today that the Oil Service "meter" was on 20,200 km at pick up.
I questioned this, but no one could explain why or how.
It was on Zero of course when taken in(hence the "Service Required" warning).

[IndusD4]

A member on disco5.co.uk asked his dealer how the service indicator worked, they asked LR. The response was this (slightly rephrased from the original post):

Distance to next service is variable. The system has 3 factors to calculate the distance to next service. These factors are; Oil dilution; distance; days to next service. Each of them are represented as a distance, even the "days to service". The "days to service" system measures an average distance within a certain time range. For example - when a customer normally drives about 1,000km per month then the next maintenance would be in 12,000km as time wise that would mark the end of a year. If for example maintenance has to be done in 10 months, the distance to service indicator would show 10,000km. If the customer changes the monthly distance driven to 500km, the system recalculates the next service due to be in 5,000km.

:eek2:


Ron

[outasight]

Thanks Ron,

I wonder then if this number can grow as well as reduce, say if your daily travel increases ... could be interesting this next 10 days as I'm travelling [biggrin]

[GP1200]

I had the latest oil dilution software update @ 25,000km Service, just before Christmas 2018 ( after 3 early oil services ), happy to report ( and fingers crossed ) that I have now done 5000km since Christmas 2018 and the next service is showing in 20,000km, so the latest software update appears to be working.

i have also been taking oil samples, the first sample showed a lot of metal, and the next two have been perfect with no signs of oil dilution.

I was back to the dealership every 5 to 6 weeks before the update for a oil service, which was absolute pain, I’m hopeful that they have solved the issue, I’m getting another oil sample in 5000km ( the oil will be 10,000km old ) and will see if the oil has any oil dilution, which to be honest I’m not expecting any.

The whole thing is very frustrating, but if it doesn’t pan out, I think there will be a long que seeking retrubution.....

jack

[outasight]

There was some conjecture between the three service staff(Manager & two advisors) whether or not software had been applied in either of the first two visits.
Your results Jack seem to make me think perhaps not!

LRA had not been made aware there were any issues with this car(ie. they confirmed there were no "Cases" raised with them).
LRA should definitely be involved with the Dealer next week(there IS now a "Case"), so we will see what comes next now ...

Les.

[Graeme]

Is the oil dilution real or imagined?

[IndusD4]

Imagined. Which is why MY18 vehicles can be fixed with a software update.

[outasight]

I'm tending to believe it's largely imagined, although they may well have changed something in the design of the exhaust to MY18 vehicles.

Makes my situation & inconvenience even more rediculous if it were only imagined though.

[DirtDigger]

I was considering buying a disco 5 TD6 but scared of the poor reliability. On the UK disco 5 forum so many people complained about the fuel in oil resulting in early oil changes, plus frequent Adblue refill could see your beloved disco in dealer garage 4 or 5 times within 6 months. Also there is a concern about engine damage on long run. These issues don't seem to be complained about by OZ owners, what is the magic here? Thanks in advance.
see Bulletin
2017-07 JLRP00100 Service indicator message and oil dilution.pdf | DocDroid (https://www.docdroid.net/KUMbEu2/2017-07-jlrp00100-service-indicator-message-and-oil-dilution.pdf)

[IndusD4]

That bulletin was issued in 2017. MY17 and MY18 TD6 vehicles are affected, indications are the SD6 in MY19 don't have the early service warning.
MY18 vehicles can be fixed with the N222v3 software update.

Ron

[PhilipA]

I hate to think what will happen when these vehicles get some miles on and may get leaks in the inlet tract ETC.

My son recently bought a 2012 Subaru Outback diesel with DPF.
I warned him of the dangers but his wife drives from Kellyville to Richmond each day so should be enough for regeneration.
A couple of weeks ago I received a call from Goulburn where the DPF service light had come on and the engine went into limp home.( he was returning on the highway from a weekend in Canberra).

He drove home and booked into an independent with experience with Subarus, to find that the DPF was destroyed. The independent apparently advised that there was an air leak caused by an intercooler hose clamp not being tightened enough and this had caused the DPF meltdown. A friend had replaced the intercooler hose as my son was unable to due to a motorcycle accident.

I understand from other sources that Subaru has now discontinued the Outback diesel.

My son instituted a repair mode that may not be popular with D5 owners.

Regards Philip A

[outasight]

Update to my case.

JLRA CRC have advised me to go back to my Dealer who will then negotiate with JLRA regarding how much support they will provide the dealer towards a replacement vehicle after reviewing my case.

This has been conveyed to my Dealer's Sales Manager & we will see what happens next ...

[outasight]

UPDATE: As of lunch time today I was advised by the dealer that JLRA will NOT be providing any support to the Dealership, as they do not believe there is anything wrong with the car.

I have now formally lodged a complaint with Consumer Affairs Victoria with all relevant details & discussions/emails, etc.

[tony_s]

Good luck Les! I will be interested to hear how you go.
Tony

[AndyG]

Has anyone wrapped the top of the exhaust as far as the DPF with exhaust bandage to keep the temps higher in the pipe, and hopefully self clean better ?

[outasight]

Hi all,

Well surprise, surprise - without any further mention to me from the dealer or JLRA - my 2017 has been 100% perfect since the last oil change at the time of the ACCC contact - "next oil service" following driven km's perfectly!
"Normal" 26,000km service was done after that with another oil change & it still tracks 100% aok.

Go figure ...