Choosing the RIGHT VEHICLE for Overlanding Video - Interesting....

[Robmacca]

Guys, I sat down and watched this video last night from Andrew St Pierre White about what makes a good Overlanding Touring Vehicle and what "Brand" of vehicles to use. Knowing that he had a long history with LR in his early days but now mainly driving Toyotas, I thought it would be interesting to hear his viewpoint. For me, he makes some interesting points, especially when it comes to reliability and people's take on "Preventative Maintenance" vs Reliability. I remember reading about this within a post on here about this exact topic and it generated some interesting comments....

Anyways..... I thought it would be interesting to hear others viewpoints on what they think of his comments, etc... so, have a watch and post up your thoughts on what he says.....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhllcFNgYXM

[Robmacca]

Also, if I owned that new model Puma that he talks about in the Video with the oil leak, I too would be VERY annoyed and disappointed

[seaweed]

Also, if I owned that new model Puma that he talks about in the Video with the oil leak, I too would be VERY annoyed and disappointed

The oil on the floor appears to be very dark in colour for just 30 kilometres.

[manic]

Air suspension - uh oh

Heard of a few near new pumas with rear crank seal leaks. Whos to blame, land rover or ford?

[Greg4427]

Well I had a 2014 Defender 90 which suffered a leaky rear main oil seal. Sorted under warranty, no big deal. But now have a 2016 Defender 110 (20,000 kms) with no problems at all [biggrin]

[Greg4427]

Oops, by the way, pretty interesting video. I’ve seen a few of his previously and enjoyed them. Good perspective

[trout1105]

I found that video to be very interesting and as far as I am concerned Andrew was 110% on the money as far as Landrover's and their owners are concerned [thumbsupbig]
Has comment that "If you love working on your truck then a Landrover is for you" is on the money along with the comment that air suspension is a serious weak link in a 4WD.
It was interesting that after he had discounted the Discovery as a touring vehicle he said that the D1 and even the D2 was a good choice because of the parts availability etc.
The SLS on my own D2a caused me heaps of grief many times and the last straw was when I had to travel about 500k's home on the bump stops one trip so I did the spring conversion and haven't had ANY problems with the suspension in the last 40,000K's.
Yes I have lost some of the comfort But I now still have a very nice truck without the "Weak Link" of air suspension to let me down.
His comment that if you own a Landrover be prepared to spend a fair bit of time and money keeping it up and running, I couldn't agree with him more.
Owing to the PO's lack of maintenance and servicing I have spent thousands of dollars and much time getting my D2a up to scratch and to a point where I am happy to take her anywhere.
His comments on Toyota's is also spot on as I have owned a few Hilux's and we still have a 2006 twin cab and YES they are bloody reliable BUT would I want to drive one thousands of K's on and off road instead of my Disco, NOT a Bloody chance.

[Robmacca]

Air suspension - uh oh

Heard of a few near new pumas with rear crank seal leaks. Whos to blame, land rover or ford?

I didn't realise this was a problem with Pumas.... is there a particular that it is more common with ??

[Landy Smurf]

Interesting watch. I enjoy his videos as he tries not to be biased.

[Tins]

Andrew had a long history with LRs, particularly RRs. As a motoring journo though, he fell out with them over a review he wrote re the traction controlled D2s. LR refused to talk to him, or lend him cars for review after that, which seemed to him ( and me ) to be petty and churlish. Otherwise, he has always had a soft for the cars themselves.

Both he and Paul have been doing overlanding, as he calls it, for decades. His vids are always interesting and well done. I don't always agree, but why would I? But, he and Paul have vast experience with building what I prefer to call outback touring vehicles, mainly in Africa, where, apart from the animals, conditions can be quite similar to here. In Africa it is quite easy to hire a completely set up vehicle for a week or a year of "overlanding", and Paul has been involved in that.

I like Andrew's stuff so much I am a Patreon. But you don't need to be. His utoob channel, 4Xoverland is well worth a visit. To all you budding videographers, he also offers courses in filming and editing. He was a professional film editor, and uses his skills in that field to help him with his utoob stuff, and to teach others. His roots are from here. I'm glad he came home.



BTW, the review he wrote on the TC D2s was correct in every way, in my view.

[dirvine]

I made a comment on another forum that the potential air suspension failure fix is an easy cost of $330 and no need to carry any spares. For me (I also own a Toyota 76 wagon), its a no brainer. I want a smooth ride and some form of reliability and if not then some insurance backup. $330 is cheap if it overcomes any suspension failure that MIGHT occur. Some people just hate LR.

[Robmacca]

I made a comment on another forum that the potential air suspension failure fix is an easy cost of $330 and no need to carry any spares. For me (I also own a Toyota 76 wagon), its a no brainer. I want a smooth ride and some form of reliability and if not then some insurance backup. $330 is cheap if it overcomes any suspension failure that MIGHT occur. Some people just hate LR.

Curious here.... but how tough are the airbags themselves? Do they have much protection against sharp stones being thrown up if u are a person that continually drives on rough rocky/loose stoney dirt roads?

[dirvine]

According to GOE website only 4 world wide! So a very low number considering how many have been sold in all forms of LR models!

[Zeros]

Random! Quirky even. Like it. ...But unbiased? Hmm

My Puma needed a rear main seal at 70,000. But the new Amarok I had for a while needed a new gearbox at 5,000km. Toyotas I've driven for work have needed engine mounts, gearbox and diffs within 60,000km.

The most interesting discussion to me was about the relative bush ability and durability of all new vehicles, although it was pretty cursory. His disappointment in Land Rover here is obvious and his perspective that Toyota have stayed truer to their overlanding roots is a strong argument for Toyota. Especially in those countries that really use such vehicles like Australia and Africa. The urban centeric market shift everywhere else is clearly the reason that on road ability and complex tech is more important to most. ...but what will he drive when all vehicles have air suspension, are all electric and autonomous? It's coming faster than we can imagine.

Interesting and refreshing that he didn't even mention the mythical next Defender.

I'm in the four coils, live-axle, constant 4WD camp, which is why I drive a Defender. As such a secondhand Defender is currently still a far better prospect than a new Toyota for overlanding IMO.

[Strop]

As a newby I found this interesting. After a recent trip my wife and I commented on the number of Toyota’s around and the presence of supporting dealerships. A Toyota would be the best car to break down in - if such a thing exists.

Having never owned a Toyota bit hard to comment on cost of ownership but I will say Land Rover is up there at the higher end.

Getting into a vehicle is something he doesn’t really cover. Much cheaper to get into a 2nd Hand LR compared to a Landcruiser. More bang for your buck. Not sure if he gets help buying his vehicles either.

The next part I thought he skipped, because I am doing the maths at the moment, is load carrying. Should I have bought a Defender rather than a Discovery? Can a Toyota carry more?

Interesting to watch. At the end of the day though it doesn’t matter what vehicle you are driving/towing if you break something you have a problem. Does he carry spare springs & shock absorbers etc. 1 or 2 of each. It all adds to the weight & storage issues. His recent series of videos on the Canning Stock Route mentions the number of other vehicles travelling it. Breaking down, a simplistic vehicle so you can jerry rig something is perhaps a mindset of the overlanding past where it was a lot harder. I don’t know I am too new to this.

[dirvine]

At this stage I can only comment on what happened to me in regards to costs of a Toyota and a LR. I bought the D4 first and after a weekend away I was so disappointed I went and ordered a 2017 76 series wagon with air and a auto conversion. I changed the front seats to recaro's, and thought now I have the best of both worlds. However, 2 services on the Toyota are dearer than the one service on the D4. The Toyota has had 3 recalls outside the service intervals, the D4 none. We went away towing a 16' off road van to see which vehicle we would take on a trip we did in June to August. Without a doubt the D4 was far more on road (made and dirt) capable, comfortable, and cheaper to run (ie fuel costs) than the Toyota. So I swallowed my pride and we took the D4. In the bush I must admit I still feel the Toyota is the better vehicle. Perhaps its roughness translates to ruggedness and I feel more confidant in a vehicle that requires driver input than driving a D4 with all the electronic wizardry. At least the Toyota does not get damaged wheel rims! I also feel (maybe its just a perception) that there is more storage space in the Toyota. So when I go to tough stuff I have been taking the Toyota. However as I have now built the d4 up to my interpretation of a optioned capable 4WD, I am thinking that my son may get a nice Christmas present as he still likes the cars from the land of the rising sun. In January to March I am heading off to Perth via the inland route to Coral Bay (read off the beaten track). I have prepared my D4 as best i think I can. with a HF radio if things hit the fan. I am sure I will test it fully. Ie 45C+ temps and towing a van. If I had for a moment a thought it would breakdown and I could be stranded, I would take the Toyota. However a comfortable ride, where you pull in at night and still feel as refreshed as when when you started, a car whose air con actually does cool the whole car, and to do it in style, i will take my chances. Will report my thoughts when i get back.

[1nando]

I don't know if this is true or not and its simply an observation ive made from watching Andrew's videos.
He's used a lot of vehicles over the years that have been provided to him by different manufacturers. This is his second 70 series and i would bet a decent chunk of change that somewhere and at sometime there has been a conversation between himself and a Toyota representative. I believe this is true cause of a few reasons.

The 70 series has a few major flaws he chooses to completely ignore or play down. The wheel track is ridiculous, can be dangerous and in no way would i call this "over engineering" as he describes it. "Over engineering " would have sorted such a huge flaw....but Toyota didnt.
The clutches on the 70 series are just as bad as the pumas if not worse!
The v8 injectors have a reputation for spitting the dummy and arent "over engineered".
The alternator is possibly in the worst possible postion you could possibly design it to be in, again not "over engineered".

Anyway im not trying to Toyota bash as the 70 series also has a lot of good points and Toyota definately builds some very reliable cars.

One thing i found strange was his opinion on Nissan. Whether you love em or hate them the 4.2TD Patrol is probably the toughest 4wd vehicle ever made and driven in Australia. They're so tuff the comp guys love em and nothing has a drive train close to its strength. I felt as though he brushed over it and left it in Toyotas shadow. He speaks more like a man being supported by Toyota than an independent journalist. Its a bit like Pat Callinan; one week the patrol is the best, the next week its the Amarok.....the truth is his opinion on the best vehicle is the one whos manufacturer is paying his bills!

Again no proof just my opinion.

[timax]

I think in a way he is stuck.
He dosnt like wagons for overlanding as he likes to fit-out the back of his trucks. That really limits what you can have. Landrover no longer have anything suitable and The Patrol is only a wagon. He did initially buy a dual cab to do what most do but then took it back.
Although you may think he is a tad biased at the moment he does say he thinks the Defender is one of the best cars offroad and more comfortable than the Cruiser. He also says the G wagon is the best offroad he has ever driven. What he needs is a G wagon troopy! Sounds good to me also.

[travelrover]

I don't know if this is true or not and its simply an observation ive made from watching Andrew's videos.
He's used a lot of vehicles over the years that have been provided to him by different manufacturers. This is his second 70 series and i would bet a decent chunk of change that somewhere and at sometime there has been a conversation between himself and a Toyota representative. I believe this is true cause of a few reasons.

The 70 series has a few major flaws he chooses to completely ignore or play down. The wheel track is ridiculous, can be dangerous and in no way would i call this "over engineering" as he describes it. "Over engineering " would have sorted such a huge flaw....but Toyota didnt.
The clutches on the 70 series are just as bad as the pumas if not worse!
The v8 injectors have a reputation for spitting the dummy and arent "over engineered".
The alternator is possibly in the worst possible postion you could possibly design it to be in, again not "over engineered".

Anyway im not trying to Toyota bash as the 70 series also has a lot of good points and Toyota definately builds some very reliable cars.

One thing i found strange was his opinion on Nissan. Whether you love em or hate them the 4.2TD Patrol is probably the toughest 4wd vehicle ever made and driven in Australia. They're so tuff the comp guys love em and nothing has a drive train close to its strength. I felt as though he brushed over it and left in Toyotas shadow. He speaks more like a man being supported by Toyota than an independent journalist. Its a bit like Pat Callinan; one week the patrol is the best, the next week its the Amarok.....the truth is his opinion on the best vehicle is the one whos manufacturer is paying his bills!

Again no proof just my opinion.

I think you are absolutely correct, ‘opinion’ is sponsored or bought. It is for this reason I have not bought a 4wd magazine in over 25 years as they became so tainted by the not so subtle sponsorship it was almost embarrassing to read some of the blatant bias and negative comments and not always directed at Land Rovers....

My opinion anyway.

[Robmacca]

I don't know if this is true or not and its simply an observation ive made from watching Andrew's videos.
He's used a lot of vehicles over the years that have been provided to him by different manufacturers. This is his second 70 series and i would bet a decent chunk of change that somewhere and at sometime there has been a conversation between himself and a Toyota representative. I believe this is true cause of a few reasons.

The 70 series has a few major flaws he chooses to completely ignore or play down. The wheel track is ridiculous, can be dangerous and in no way would i call this "over engineering" as he describes it. "Over engineering " would have sorted such a huge flaw....but Toyota didnt.
The clutches on the 70 series are just as bad as the pumas if not worse!
The v8 injectors have a reputation for spitting the dummy and arent "over engineered".
The alternator is possibly in the worst possible postion you could possibly design it to be in, again not "over engineered".

Anyway im not trying to Toyota bash as the 70 series also has a lot of good points and Toyota definately builds some very reliable cars.

One thing i found strange was his opinion on Nissan. Whether you love em or hate them the 4.2TD Patrol is probably the toughest 4wd vehicle ever made and driven in Australia. They're so tuff the comp guys love em and nothing has a drive train close to its strength. I felt as though he brushed over it and left in Toyotas shadow. He speaks more like a man being supported by Toyota than an independent journalist. Its a bit like Pat Callinan; one week the patrol is the best, the next week its the Amarok.....the truth is his opinion on the best vehicle is the one whos manufacturer is paying his bills!

Again no proof just my opinion.

He has mentioned the wheel track in previous videos and even criticises Toyota as to why they didn't fix the rear..... The Injectors and Alternators are things he "may" experience if he ever keeps a long enough but he has Aux Fuel Filters so I think he may not have injector issues now....

I've mainly had Toyotas for the past 30yrs but now I have both Toyotas and LR and I can say I've had a fantastic run out of my Toyotas that I've had but like most manufacturers, as time goes on each model doesn't appear as tough as the previous models, but in saying that Toyotas as still pretty reliable from what I've experienced. Can't say the same for LR as I've haven't had them for long enough yet but I'm happy to own LR's and probably will do into the future (old ones that is). Once the Kids are off our hands, then I will have to think about which vehicle will suit the missus and myself as a future touring vehicle to travel around this country in..... Might be a Troopy or still a Defender as I'd like to be able to sleep in the back of it.....

[Zeros]

TBe funniest part of the video is when he tries to convince himself that you can get the Land Rover permagrin from a Toyota or any other make! [bigrolf][biggrin]

[karlz]

He is wrong about air suspension.

1. Airbags are very tough and unlikely to puncture, not impossible, but unlikely, probably same risk as a broken coil, carry spare airbags is lighter than coils.
2. Hose leak is higher, and this can be repaired with a $10 dollar part which joins the hoses. I used to carry 2 with me in my P38.
3. Air-compressor fails possible, and sensors can be knocked out of sync or busted, the remedy is to install a manual override system which you can pump up with a bike pump if needed.

I'd prefer airbags in my defender than coils.

[Tins]

I don't know if this is true or not and its simply an observation ive made from watching Andrew's videos.
He's used a lot of vehicles over the years that have been provided to him by different manufacturers. This is his second 70 series and i would bet a decent chunk of change that somewhere and at sometime there has been a conversation between himself and a Toyota representative. I believe this is true cause of a few reasons.

The 70 series has a few major flaws he chooses to completely ignore or play down. The wheel track is ridiculous, can be dangerous and in no way would i call this "over engineering" as he describes it. "Over engineering " would have sorted such a huge flaw....but Toyota didnt.
The clutches on the 70 series are just as bad as the pumas if not worse!
The v8 injectors have a reputation for spitting the dummy and arent "over engineered".
The alternator is possibly in the worst possible postion you could possibly design it to be in, again not "over engineered".

Anyway im not trying to Toyota bash as the 70 series also has a lot of good points and Toyota definately builds some very reliable cars.

One thing i found strange was his opinion on Nissan. Whether you love em or hate them the 4.2TD Patrol is probably the toughest 4wd vehicle ever made and driven in Australia. They're so tuff the comp guys love em and nothing has a drive train close to its strength. I felt as though he brushed over it and left it in Toyotas shadow. He speaks more like a man being supported by Toyota than an independent journalist. Its a bit like Pat Callinan; one week the patrol is the best, the next week its the Amarok.....the truth is his opinion on the best vehicle is the one whos manufacturer is paying his bills!

Again no proof just my opinion.

If you watch other vids of his, you will find that he is scathing about the wheel track on the 70 series.

He does not accept vehicles from manufacturers. He is sponsored by BFG, he no doubt gets help from AluKab. Saying that a vehicle manufacturer is paying his bills is untrue, and possibly libellous.

People need to take him in totality. Like him or not, he has vastly more experience than around 90% of contributors here. Why is it so hard for people to simply look, or look away?

[ozscott]

He is wrong about air suspension.

1. Airbags are very tough and unlikely to puncture, not impossible, but unlikely, probably same risk as a broken coil, carry spare airbags is lighter than coils.
2. Hose leak is higher, and this can be repaired with a $10 dollar part which joins the hoses. I used to carry 2 with me in my P38.
3. Air-compressor fails possible, and sensors can be knocked out of sync or busted, the remedy is to install a manual override system which you can pump up with a bike pump if needed.

I'd prefer airbags in my defender than coils.Mate you can love air bags AND admit that coils are more reliable. It's not really an arguable point. Broken coil. Never seen a vehicle let down by that but have seen a few Land Rovers let down by air suspension bags and components.

Cheers

[1nando]

If you watch other vids of his, you will find that he is scathing about the wheel track on the 70 series.

He does not accept vehicles from manufacturers. He is sponsored by BFG, he no doubt gets help from AluKab. Saying that a vehicle manufacturer is paying his bills is untrue, and possibly libellous.

People need to take him in totality. Like him or not, he has vastly more experience than around 90% of contributors here. Why is it so hard for people to simply look, or look away?I said it was my opinion, not fact. My opinion is based on what i see. Andrew has always tried different makes and different vehciles. This is his second consecutive troopy and from i can see he has talked about it quiet a bit. To me it sounds like John laws "cash for comments" back in the day.
I agree he has done more travelling than i will ever do in my life time however im still allowed to have an opinion. As for only seeing old toyotas; what a load of sh$t. There are countries in Africa ie Morocco where there is nothing but old land rovers driving around everywhere. If you listen carefuly there is a lot of Toyota propaganda being thrown around in his video.
A man who accepts sponsorships from BFG, Alucab, ARB will also more than likely accommodate some hand outs from a vehcile manufacturer, the idea is not that far fetched.

[weeds]

People need to take him in totality. Like him or not, he has vastly more experience than around 90% of contributors here. Why is it so hard for people to simply look, or look away?

It’s a public forum, it encourages member to voice the opinions, views, thoughts, experiences.....don’t look if you are easily offended

We are currently planning our overland trip, it will be either be...ship defender into the bottom of South Africa or into Germany.......I will be in a defender running air suspension and have zero overland experience.........but I reckon we will do just fine.

If I took only his views and suggestion I wouldn’t be going........I reckon tapping into 100’s and 100’s of other people experience gives one a better heads up.

[weeds]

Oh, started to watch the show at the start of this thread, lasted 20min than turned it off.

I did enjoy the footage of driving and the wildlife.

[djam1]

I can take or leave him not that fussed I think he has a pretty good understanding of Land Rovers I'm not sure I agree with him on Toyota's but he is entitled to his opinion.
Regarding air suspension I can contribute, in the 1980s I drove Denning Coaches around the Northern Territory over roads that most Land Rovers on this forum haven't seen apart from the occasional month long foray into the outback and they did it daily.
When the Denning coaches were designed they were run up and down the Stuart Highway from Port Augusta to Alice they were loaded with water bottles to simulate the weight of passengers.
They were pushed till they broke they were then strengthened and then did it all again until they didn't break. One of them hit a creek west of the Olgas so hard it shattered the windscreens.

I have utter confidence in air suspension I have had 16 tonne Denning coaches airborne on dirt roads and they are profoundly durable.
I would personally doubt if there is a modern 4x4 that would be as durable as these things. (bold statement I know) when the 70 series Troopies were released and they were run on the same roads would last 30000ks before the body cracked up that bad that the windows fell out just to give an hint of how rough things were.

BUT I am not sure I would trust Land Rover (or Ford or Tata) to design and put together a durable air suspension system.

For the record there was a Denning coach put across the Simpson in the mid 80s (mid mount detroit with bogey axles)

[karlz]

Mate you can love air bags AND admit that coils are more reliable. It's not really an arguable point. Broken coil. Never seen a vehicle let down by that but have seen a few Land Rovers let down by air suspension bags and components.

Cheers

I travelled through middle of Zaire accompanying a 110. He snapped 3 coils during the crossing. He carried 2 spares and welded up the last one.
I personally haven't seen a broken airbag, nor have I had one. But the electronics and airlines had caused my airbags to fail, hence the reason for installing a manual override.

I never stated that airbags are more reliable than coils, just superior.
Similarly, power assisted brakes and steering are less reliable than those without it, but I'd rather have the assistance.

btw. does air suspension belong in offroad vehichles? Well, most modern day military tanks have some form of air-suspension eg M1 Abrams .

[weeds]

I travelled through middle of Zaire accompanying a 110. He snapped 3 coils during the crossing. He carried 2 spares and welded up the last one.
I personally haven't seen a broken airbag, nor have I had one. But the electronics and airlines had caused my airbags to fail, hence the reason for installing a manual override.

I never stated that airbags are more reliable than coils, just superior.
Similarly, power assisted brakes and steering are less reliable than those without it, but I'd rather have the assistance.

btw. does air suspension belong in offroad vehichles? Well, most modern day military tanks have some form of air-suspension eg M1 Abrams .

I know of one air spring on a defender that has failed......the bag was at fault, mounting brackets caused the fault.

I’m still deciding if i replace the front coils with air springs. I have the brackets to covert the shocks to outboard.

[Zeros]

I reckon if I took my Defender with coils to SA I'd be ok too. The roads I've driven over two decades in Defenders have broken Toyota chassis, engine mounts and leaf springs. My Defenders have always been rock solid. ...it's also how you drive obviously. I like coil springs.

[Tins]

It’s a public forum, it encourages member to voice the opinions, views, thoughts, experiences.....don’t look if you are easily offended

We are currently planning our overland trip, it will be either be...ship defender into the bottom of South Africa or into Germany.......I will be in a defender running air suspension and have zero overland experience.........but I reckon we will do just fine.

If I took only his views and suggestion I wouldn’t be going........I reckon tapping into 100’s and 100’s of other people experience gives one a better heads up..

Who said I was offended? It was a simple question. That is all.

[Tins]

I said it was my opinion, not fact. My opinion is based on what i see. Andrew has always tried different makes and different vehciles. This is his second consecutive troopy and from i can see he has talked about it quiet a bit. To me it sounds like John laws "cash for comments" back in the day.
I agree he has done more travelling than i will ever do in my life time however im still allowed to have an opinion. As for only seeing old toyotas; what a load of sh$t. There are countries in Africa ie Morocco where there is nothing but old land rovers driving around everywhere. If you listen carefuly there is a lot of Toyota propaganda being thrown around in his video.
A man who accepts sponsorships from BFG, Alucab, ARB will also more than likely accommodate some hand outs from a vehcile manufacturer, the idea is not that far fetched.

Wouldn't it be nice if people read what was posted and responded to that, rather than to some fantasy of their own? Where did I suggest that you could not have your own opinion? You need to know, though, that unsubstantiated allegations may not go unchallenged.

[1nando]

Wouldn't it be nice if people read what was posted and responded to that, rather than to some fantasy of their own? Where did I suggest that you could not have your own opinion? You need to know, though, that unsubstantiated allegations may not go unchallenged.Agreed. However the day i take a journalist's word as gospel and believe that he has no bias, agenda or underlying interests will be the day i win the lotto.

I love watching Andrews videos not becuase of the vehicle he drives but becuase of the effort he puts into his editing and the locations he travels to. I'm jealous of the destinataions he travels to and i wish i had his job. Thats what i love. His vehicle ranting isn't important to me.

A journalist without a bias is a man with no income!

[Tins]

Agreed. However the day i take a journalist's word as gospel and believe that he has no bias, agenda or underlying interests will be the day i win the lotto.

I love watching Andrews videos not becuase of the vehicle he drives but becuase of the effort he puts into his editing and the locations he travels to. I'm jealous of the destinataions he travels to and i wish i had his job. Thats what i love. His vehicle ranting isn't important to me.

A journalist without a bias is a man with no income!

I would counter that by referring you to the writings of one Jeremy Clarkson. He writes what he thinks. That is precisely the attitude that got Andrew into so much **** ( testing swear filter here ) with LR. He was a 4WD motoring journo with a great deal of cred in South Africa. LR lent him a D2 with the new fangled TC. He wrote what he thought, that the TC was garbage, LR did NOT like that.

My question is: would you, or anyone else here, prefer that he wrote what he thought ( he was right, BTW, anyone with a D2 knows it ), or should he have been a LR sycophant? I know where I am on this.

I don't care who likes him or who doesn't. Never have. I DO care, however, when people who haven't bothered to do any sort of research post things that they have just in fact made up.

I never take anyone's word as gospel, 1nando. Andrew posts some things I consider to be nonsense, but I won't write off the opinion of a bloke who has done 100 times as much as I have because of some unfounded, jealous opinion I have, which seems to be a bit of a theme here. Note: I am not referring to you.

Andrew had a long relationship with LR cars. Now, he has a Troopy. Can anyone tell me what NEW car he could have bought to fit out the way he did that wasn't a Troopy? No?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QexWrXrD6UM

[1nando]

I would counter that by referring you to the writings of one Jeremy Clarkson. He writes what he thinks. That is precisely the attitude that got Andrew into so much **** ( testing swear filter here ) with LR. He was a 4WD motoring journo with a great deal of cred in South Africa. LR lent him a D2 with the new fangled TC. He wrote what he thought, that the TC was garbage, LR did NOT like that.

My question is: would you, or anyone else here, prefer that he wrote what he thought ( he was right, BTW, anyone with a D2 knows it ), or should he have been a LR sycophant? I know where I am on this.

I don't care who likes him or who doesn't. Never have. I DO care, however, when people who haven't bothered to do any sort of research post things that they have just in fact made up.

I never take anyone's word as gospel, 1nando. Andrew posts some things I consider to be nonsense, but I won't write off the opinion of a bloke who has done 100 times as much as I have because of some unfounded, jealous opinion I have, which seems to be a bit of a theme here. Note: I am not referring to you.

Andrew had a long relationship with LR cars. Now, he has a Troopy. Can anyone tell me what NEW car he could have bought to fit out the way he did that wasn't a Troopy? No?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QexWrXrD6UMJohn: i get your point, honestly i do and for the record I've followed Andrew's you tube channel for years and pretty much watched all his videos.

My idea of Andrew isn't a result of his opinion on LR, Toyota, Nissan or whatever the make may be but rather the fact that he's a journalist and many a time has contradicted himself. He gets paid to talk about prodcuts, if he doesn't he gets no pay cheque.
His new troopy and the set up in it would be worth well over $130k. Manufactures would expect a "comments for cash" return on their investment.
He claims to have paid for the troopy, id believe it if i saw his bank balance before and after purchase.
Toyota is one of the worst manufacturers when it comes to hiding the truth. Google Toyota reliablity and tell me what you find? The answer is nothing. Toyota takes legal action against anyone who makes an effort to get the truth out, defamatory comments are unacceptable and all efforts are made to keep the Toyota brand untarnished.

Toyota spends a lot promoting propaganda and in MY OPINION Andrew is just another puppet.

[trout1105]

Personally I enjoy watching Andrews YouTube offerings and i respect his opinions.
He doesn't get it right all the time and sometimes I don't agree with him But in most cases he is "Spot On".
I also enjoy watchig Ronny Dahl fron 4 wheeling in WA who gets his quids via subsriptions not corperate sponsorship.
I don't know for certain that Andrew is sponsered by Toyota and I very much doubt that anyone here knows thar for a fact either so making making unfounded assumptions about a corporate sponsered bias I find a bit Odd.

[rar110]

He is wrong about air suspension.

1. Airbags are very tough and unlikely to puncture, not impossible, but unlikely, probably same risk as a broken coil, carry spare airbags is lighter than coils.
2. Hose leak is higher, and this can be repaired with a $10 dollar part which joins the hoses. I used to carry 2 with me in my P38.
3. Air-compressor fails possible, and sensors can be knocked out of sync or busted, the remedy is to install a manual override system which you can pump up with a bike pump if needed.

I'd prefer airbags in my defender than coils.

100% agree. There is a reason Aus heavy vehicle transport is dominated by air suspension. It is reliable. An air spring, with similar characteristics to a tyre which is in constant contact with a variable hard mass, is not going to have the same abrasion/leak risk as was suggested.

I went from 110 with coils to EAS in the L322 RRV. While coils are good, after 3 years in the RRV no question, EAS is better. EAS has come a long way since the classic RR and P38 and D2.

[rar110]

Mate you can love air bags AND admit that coils are more reliable. It's not really an arguable point. Broken coil. Never seen a vehicle let down by that but have seen a few Land Rovers let down by air suspension bags and components.

Cheers

Yep I’ve seen a few broken coils in Aus.

[ozscott]

I can't imagine what you would have to do and over how many hundreds of thousand of miles to destroy good spring steel. Must happen eventually I have just never seen it.

Cheers

[trout1105]

I can't imagine what you would have to do and over how many hundreds of thousand of miles to destroy good spring steel. Must happen eventually I have just never seen it.

Cheers

Coil springs can fail if they are very old But the usual culprit is overloading or Bad driving habits.
There are no moving parts, sensors, pumps, air lines or electronics to stuff up with them thats why i agree with Andrew that coil springs are a more reliable option for remote operations.
Yes the air bags give a better ride and they are reliable when the system is new But as tbe K's mount up on the vehicle things start to go south with the SLS where the coils seem to keep on going.
You often hear of the SLS on the rear of a D2 turning to mud and yet the front coils hardly ever get a mention for failing.

[rick130]

FWIW spring steel is notch sensitive, the outer surface is highly stressed, so any scratch is a stress raiser and potential failure point.

This is why they are epoxy painted or powder coated, it gives some measure of protection

[dirvine]

Had a bit of a chuckle about Andrews sponsorship. Where he is complaining about the off road height dropping down above 50kph he is wearing a JEEP shirt. Talk about having a finger in all the pies!

[Robmacca]

Had a bit of a chuckle about Andrews sponsorship. Where he is complaining about the off road height dropping down above 50kph he is wearing a JEEP shirt. Talk about having a finger in all the pies!


Geez, that's a bit of an assumption there..... just because he's wearing a Jeep Shirt......??? I assume you're just joking around?

How about we get back to basics and the topic at hand of "Choosing the RIGHT VEHICLE for Overlanding".....

Having grown up driving Toyotas and using them for all my remote touring when I was young and still using them up until recently, from my experience I can't fault them. I'm hoping now to use my old Defender as our touring vehicle into the future until the kids are off our hands, then I'm open to what vehicle the wife and I will get..... At present, even though its another 6>8yrs away, my mind is thinking either a Defender still or a Toyota Troopy and this is mainly for the fact that it can be setup to sleep in if required. I can;t really think of any other make of vehicle other than those 2 that would really suit our needs in that way.....

[DiscoMick]

I agree with his criticism of LR for the early TC and the removal of the lever on early D2s and LR responded to the criticism by refitting it. TC has since greatly improved.
Airbags seem to work fine on heavy transport so it's just a matter of checking them during servicing. People ignore failing compressors until they stop working and are then surprised if the airbags get pinched.
Springs can also fail of course. People fit stiffer springs to make their fourbys handle more like cars and then wonder why they fail on corrugations. A Defender, for example, is meant to have a soft ride over bad roads. It's not a sports car.
I saw Andrews comparison of a Troopy and Defender and thought it was fair about their pros and cons.

[shanegtr]

Its an interesting video. On the airbag side, I dont really see a difference between the actual airbag itself and a coil or leaf spring - they could all fail but in general are fairly reliable. The D3/4 airbags are surrounded by and alumiumn skin so theres little chance of damage from an external source. The control system reliability is another matter and I total understand where Andrew is getting at in regards to a simple vehicle, there is in theory less to go wrong. Of course nearly all modern vehicles are a lot more complex than they really need to be and as far as I have seen not many manufacurers have decent DIY diagnositc tools available like the options we have with LR (nanocom, IID tool etc..), most would be lucky to only have a basic scan/fault clearing available.

Interesting point about preventivitve maintance vs reliability. Even with a decent reliable car I would still excpect that you would be doing some sort of preventive maintance and replacing items if you plan to head to remote areas, thats the whole point to me is that you dont want to take any chances and stuff gets repaired properly to avoid a break down. I suppose Andrew may have been refering to some vehicles requiring less new parts and therefore is percieved to be a more reliable car.

[DiscoMick]

The Airbag Man airbags in the rear of the Defender have been totally faultless so far. I check the air regularly and they don't seem to lose any air at all.

[timax]

I dont think its the bag themselves he has issues with but instead the airlines , joins,fittings , height sensors and compressor that are part of the system. With a coil its just the coil, not a whole system. You have to remember he is also talking about a remote area overlanding car. If your off into the middle of nowhere for 6 weeks and not panning on seeing anyone what would you want? The fewer things to go wrong the better.
Personally i dont do that so id love full airbags on my defender but id be looking at protecting parts of it even for weekends away.

[rar110]

The L322 airsprings last about 10ys it seems. Coil life and leaf life will break in harsh conditions. We broke the rear leaf springs on a 2A twice on a Tanami / Kimberly trip. I saw a spring mount on a patrol snap and cracked 110 coil in workshop broken at top. I’m sure I’ve seen a pic on here too.

[timax]

The L322 airsprings last about 10ys it seems. Coil life and leaf life will break in harsh conditions. We broke the rear leaf springs on a 2A twice on a Tanami / Kimberly trip. I saw a spring mount on a patrol snap and cracked 110 coil in workshop broken at top. I’m sure I’ve seen a pic on here too.

So what are you trying to say........that you wouldnt have had problems if you had air springs in the same conditions?

[rar110]

Air spring won’t break like steel can. EAS has other vulnerabilities. I prefer the rear spring set up on the L322 over D3/4 as shock sits outside the air spring. In corrugated conditions a rear shock in particular can get pretty hot.

[Zeros]

Clearly all springs will break if abused. ...but I have to say the simplicity of my coils at nearly 20 years old on a Defender, that has spent most of its life on northern Australia corrugations, is perfect. I'm not convinced that an airbag system would have been so trouble free.

[rar110]

Clearly all springs will break if abused. ...but I have to say the simplicity of my coils at nearly 20 years old on a Defender, that has spent most of its life on northern Australia corrugations, is perfect. I'm not convinced that an airbag system would have been so trouble free.

Correct. I’m not knocking coils. They’re mostly trouble free and very effective. I can’t believe the big car makers still have rear leaf springs harping back to horse & sulky era.

But EAS has some great features such as better ride, instant lift or lowering as required, and less body roll by diverting air pressure to keep the body level. While still being very reliable.

Coils vs EAS is a bit like solid steel or rubber wheels vs early pneumatic tyres. The former is simpler and less prone to breakage. But....

[Zeros]

Ah well solid steel would go with leaf springs. Coils go with rubber. Air springs usually go with low profile rubber to improve the rock hard ride 😇.

I like the idea of magnetic resistance hover springs. Let's get with the times!

[trout1105]

I quite like the idea of the air bag helper springs inside the coils, Best of both worlds and if the air bag carks it you still have the coils and not just the bump stops to get you home [thumbsupbig]

[rar110]

I quite like the idea of the air bag helper springs inside the coils, Best of both worlds and if the air bag carks it you still have the coils and not just the bump stops to get you home [thumbsupbig]

They definitely help the vehicle stay level, especially if loaded. You can also get some extra height. Not such a big problem if the air spring, compressor or valve block fails.

[trout1105]

They definitely help the vehicle stay level, especially if loaded. You can also get some extra height. Not such a big problem if the air spring, compressor or valve block fails.

I was hoping that the air helpers would soften the ride a bit as well, I have never had these fitted so I have no idea if this is the case or not.

[ozscott]

I was hoping that the air helpers would soften the ride a bit as well, I have never had these fitted so I have no idea if this is the case or not.Trout they stiffen the ride. I have 2-5psi in mine when unladen. Here's my bet that my Dobinson springs last as long as I want. My stock springs were 12 years old when removed to enable a lift. They were fine despite towing a 2 tonn boat often and doing a lot of offroading and exposing them to salt and sand regularly at the beach.

Cheers

[trout1105]

My springs are only a couple of years old and they don't Sag too much with a full load and a boat attached.
I think I will give the helper bags a miss if they don't improve the ride.