How to solder 6B&S

[Ooops]

Hi all,

I have a D3 fitted with a basic Traxide DB kit fitted. It provides a rear external Anderson for a trailer connection and a ciggy socket internally. I'm making a few changes and I'd like to tap into the 6B&S and make a 6B&S spur behind the third row.
I have a 70W Hakko F888D soldering iron and a beast of a nondescript 220v point tipped iron.

I've had a couple of practice runs with slightly smaller cables of the size used in 30 amp fuse holders and its been a disasterThe wire sucks all the heat away and never gets hot enough where its needed so the solder never quite "goes".
By the time I get this far, the insulation on the wire has melted and rest of the of the wire is too hot to touch.

This is mostly with the beast iron as the Hakko doesn't seem to make an impression on the wire.
At this rate there's no chance of working on the 6B&S

So I'm looking for some tips and insights into the techniques and hardware that I need to employ in order to achieve a decent result.
I've no problem getting another iron if needs be, although as its only going to be used for a couple of jobs I'd prefer not to break the bank.

Ta muchly

[SimmAus]

I’m sure I’ve read here that the general consensus on these things is that crimping is preferred over solder.... good luck.

[Homestar]

Personally I’d use a crimp on cable this size, but again, that will mean buying a crimper that’s is capable of doing this. Inline, non insulated crimps can then be used to add a wire in - but this involves cutting the existing cable to do it.

I have tried to solder to larger wires before, but like you, found it isn’t easy so been using crimps for years now.

[casta66]

Do you have a jaycar near you? They are my go to place for questions like this.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

This is how I've always done it

Flite Test - Solder Thick Gauge Wire - FAST TIP - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7t9nT3Hn9b0&ab_channel=FliteTest)

[87County]

Personally I’d use a crimp on cable this size, but again, that will mean buying a crimper that’s is capable of doing this. Inline, non insulated crimps can then be used to add a wire in - but this involves cutting the existing cable to do it.

I have tried to solder to larger wires before, but like you, found it isn’t easy so been using crimps for years now.


.... or just take it to someone (e.g. friendly local auto electrician) and have him crimp it for you :)

[DiscoJeffster]

I used a blunt punch to crimp it/create bind into the cable then used a small blow torch to heat enough to apply some solder as well. Worked fine for me

[weeds]

I have always soldered all my 6B&S with a small gas butane flame........never had issues.

[austastar]

Hi,
Not having 4 hands, I drilled a hole in a piece of wood to hold the terminal.
Another piece of wood nailed at 90 degrees and a peg held the wire in the right position.
Thus, I used one hand to hold the soldering iron to heat the joint and the other to feed in the melting solder.
That worked fine, but if I did it again I would beg/borrow/steal/buy a crimper.
Cheers

[Homestar]

.... or just take it to someone (e.g. friendly local auto electrician) and have him crimp it for you :)

I am that friendly Electrican (not auto) so have all this gear myself, and yes, do quite a few things like this for friends. 😊

[loanrangie]

My soldering/rework station has a hot air gun for surface mount chip soldering/removing, this gets hot enough to solder most size cables.
I wrap solder around the cable push it into the fitting and heat til it melts the solder.

[Dorian]

Apologies for this part of my post as I know it's not in the spirit of the forum, but I laughed so hard I had to be resuscitated.

132721

Back to the OP's post.

Personally I'd cut the 6B&S and crimp lugs on the ends and bolt the 3 lugs together, using a nyloc. That way you can get a good heat shrink over the joint and you can arrange the take off exactly how you want it. Unless you don't want any more stuff in your life crimping sets for uninsulated lugs are pretty cheap. These will do the job ANDERSON PLUG HAND CRIMPING CRIMPER TOOL RATCHET 1.25 - 16 | eBay (https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/ANDERSON-PLUG-HAND-CRIMPING-CRIMPER-TOOL-RATCHET-1-25-16/132319775201?hash=item1ecedf89e1:g:PVMAAOSwfa9Zp7G y).

If you don't want to cut, then for me the next best option would be to use "Y , Breach, or T" branch joint crimps, I've only seen these as part of a potted joint set for buried cable, you wouldn't use the potting kit as it would probably end up a lot larger than what you can hide. I'd go to my local electrical wholesaler for this kit, but it won't be cheap. Haymans or L&H (as well as a dozen others) in Aust.

If you are going to solder, the video above is good. I'm not sure they stress the main trick though, you use as high a power as you can, put a dab of solder on the iron, this is not for joining the wires but is to increase the contact area so the heat can get in. In the video you can see where they do this when they melt the stick of solder directly onto the iron. Once you have this then get the stick directly onto the wire, as to get a good quick joint you need the flux in the stick to clean the wires. If you melt the stick onto the iron the flux takes awhile to get onto the wires or just burns away. This way you can get a quick joint and not burn the insulation away. If you've sourced the solder locally check that they've given you flux cored solder. I worked in Indonesia 20 or so years ago and they had never heard of the stuff.

It took me countless times having sparkies show me how to solder earth joints before I realized what they were doing. I think most of them took the flux thing for granted.

Cheers Glen.

[Bigbjorn]

I have always soldered all my 6B&S with a small gas butane flame........never had issues.

I am with Weeds on this. I use a small gas torch and have soldered battery cables and terminals no trouble.

[casta66]

This is how I've always done it

Flite Test - Solder Thick Gauge Wire - FAST TIP - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7t9nT3Hn9b0&ab_channel=FliteTest)
That's great thanks Pedro

[trout1105]

I have been told by Sparkies that a crimped fitting is superior to a soldered one especially when there is a high current draw.
You can get a hydraulic crimper for $30-$40 on eBay that is quite adequate for domestic use, I bought an 8 ton one and it came with quite a few different sized jaws that it is easy to use and it does a nice neat/tight crimp.

[Ooops]

Many thanks to all that have replied and to Pedro for the vid
I've come away with a couple of cracking ideas for soldering lugs when the time comes, however we've gone off on a bit of a tangent, many have assumed I'm adding lugs, I'm not.

What I'm hoping to do is to break into a 6B&S run that goes end to end on the vehicle and create a 6B&S spur / branch of twin cable some where along its length. Apart from terminating the working end of the spur, unless I'm missing some thing I don't see how crimping features in attaching the spur wires to the main run.

For a soldered add in I'm fairly clued up on how make a mechanically secure joint, its applying sufficient heat in the right spot to solder neatly and efficiently without trashing every thing that's stumping me.

With one exception I don't see any option other than soldering and soldering is how DriveSafe constructed the original, so if its good enough for him .........

One other possibility that originated from DriveSafe and that I may be taking totally out of context might be to use a 120 amp Anderson as a junction. The barrel of the lugs are big enough to take 2x 6B&S each so it would be a neat way of creating a junction. I'd cut the main run at the appropriate point and insert an Anderson IIRC 120 amp along with the spur wires for a really and tidy job. However I'm not sure if its advisable to interrupt the main run in such a manner, perhaps a grown up could give me the benefit of their wisdom.


I have always soldered all my 6B&S with a small gas butane flame........never had issues.
After the debacle of my practice attempt I was wondering if gas was a better way to go
Does any one have any recommendations for a butane iron?

Before I asked the original question I spent most of the day on line looking for answers. I didn't find what I was looking for but I made some interesting discoveries about crimping and soldering.

DriveSafe mentioned the following:
Despite the general misconception testing has shown that solder joints are 13% stronger than crimped

The makers of the Anderson connectors recommend both crimping and soldering as being equally applicable to the product

Crimping being more suitable for auto use than soldering is a myth. Joints that fail do so because they are incorrectly supported.

a good crimp or a good solder are ..... well, all good[biggrin]



Apologies for this part of my post as I know it's not in the spirit of the forum, but I laughed so hard I had to be resuscitated.

132721

You've completely lost me on that one, perhaps I need to get on the turps for it to become clear



Personally I'd cut the 6B&S and crimp lugs on the ends and bolt the 3 lugs together, using a nyloc. That way you can get a good heat shrink over the joint and you can arrange the take off exactly how you want it.

Thanks Dorian that's a cracking idea


If you don't want to cut, then for me the next best option would be to use "Y , Breach, or T" branch joint crimps
I've never come across any thing like that. I'll have a look on line but it sounds as if it may be a bit too big for the available space

[Ooops]

My soldering/rework station has a hot air gun for surface mount chip soldering/removing, this gets hot enough to solder most size cables.
I wrap solder around the cable push it into the fitting and heat til it melts the solder.
loanrangie I have one of these. Have you been successful using this on 6B&S?

[loanrangie]

loanrangie I have one of these. Have you been successful using this on 6B&S?
Not tried 6bs but it does 6mm auto easily, definitely gets hot enough.

[bee utey]

Find a short piece of clean new 3/8" or 1/2" copper tube, cut off a section as long as your wanted branch line crimp. Split the tube lengthways with a hacksaw, strip the insulation off your main cable and lay the branch alongside. Open up the tube, then put it over the join and wrap the tube around it using pliers or vice grips. Once it is reasonably tight borrow a suitable crimping tool and give it some loving. Insulate the join well.

[Ooops]

Find a short piece of clean new 3/8" or 1/2" copper tube, cut off a section as long as your wanted branch line crimp. Split the tube lengthways with a hacksaw, strip the insulation off your main cable and lay the branch alongside. Open up the tube, then put it over the join and wrap the tube around it using pliers or vice grips. Once it is reasonably tight borrow a suitable crimping tool and give it some loving. Insulate the join well.
That's a great idea, many thanks


Not tried 6bs but it does 6mm auto easily, definitely gets hot enough.
Thanks mate, I'll experiment with it during my next practice session

[Mick_Marsh]

Not tried 6bs but it does 6mm auto easily, definitely gets hot enough.
6B&S is more than twice the csa as 6mm. More like 14mm.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

A very long time ago[bighmmm] we had to solder lugs on the end of one inch diameter starter cables for large electric motors, the Sydney Water Board(remember them?) wanted visual proof of methodolgy, so we soldered half a dozen and then cut the lugs in half, all went well.
We used a small oxy for heat and sodden asbestos sheet pulped and formed around each cable to stop the insulation burning,,

That would still be ok today? yes? [bigrolf]

[loanrangie]

6B&S is more than twice the csa as 6mm. More like 14mm.

True, my hot air gun gets to over 400c so plenty hot enough to melt solder.

[Dorian]

DriveSafe mentioned the following:
Despite the general misconception testing has shown that solder joints are 13% stronger than crimped

The makers of the Anderson connectors recommend both crimping and soldering as being equally applicable to the product

Crimping being more suitable for auto use than soldering is a myth. Joints that fail do so because they are incorrectly supported.

a good crimp or a good solder are ..... well, all good[biggrin]



In industry (switchboards and 415V stuff) , soldered joints are very much frowned upon, there have been a couple of cases where the circuit has had a problem, the solder melted and things have gone much further south from there. I personally have found a couple of soldered joints where the flux hasn't been cleaned off before being taped up and over time the joint has corroded. Though I've not had any problems with soldered joints in auto's my view is in favour of crimps as I think they are easier to get right. However I've happily put a few soldered joints in my car.


You've completely lost me on that one, perhaps I need to get on the turps for it to become clear
Yea, the comment was a bit vague, one chap suggested you go to Jaycar. I think your nearest is probably in Darwin.


Thanks Dorian that's a cracking idea
Thanks, passed down to me from an old friend.


I've never come across any thing like that. I'll have a look on line but it sounds as if it may be a bit too big for the available space
This is more for general info than anything else, but as it happens, I had a sparky onsite yesterday arvo. You need a thing called a C Crimp for doing Y Joints. [bigrolf]
C TAPS, COPPER, C CRIMPS, C TAP CRIMPS, CEMBRE C TAPS, COPPER C TAPS, EARTHING, OVERHEAD LINE (https://www.cablejoints.co.uk/sub-product-details/cable-jacks/c-taps-crimps-copper)
These are the things in the jointing kits I talked about, down side is you will need a specific crimper to get it right and you cant heat shrink the final joint.

Cheers Glen

[Ooops]

one chap suggested you go to Jaycar. I think your nearest is probably in Darwin.
Sorry, I was being a bit dense. Yes that made me smile too.


... my hot air gun gets to over 400c so plenty hot enough to melt solder.
I'm definitely going to give this a try. In fact I'm going to have a go on some scrap at several of these to see which I get on best with.
Its always nice to have more than one trick up your sleeve


I have always soldered all my 6B&S with a small gas butane flame........never had issues.
Weeds I'm keen to give this a go. Is there a particular version that you could recommend?

Today I filed a flat on the 100w and it was a different story, I got a decent joint but again the insulation was very hot and pliable, no where near as bad as before though. I need to get some 6B&S for further practice on this and the other great suggestions that have been put forward ....... perhaps not the asbestos though[biggrin]

[Ooops]

Gents,

for the gas soldering irons how many watts and what size & shape bit would you recommend for 6B&S?

[DiscoJeffster]

Sorry, I was being a bit dense. Yes that made me smile too.


I'm definitely going to give this a try. In fact I'm going to have a go on some scrap at several of these to see which I get on best with.
Its always nice to have more than one trick up your sleeve


Weeds I'm keen to give this a go. Is there a particular version that you could recommend?

Today I filed a flat on the 100w and it was a different story, I got a decent joint but again the insulation was very hot and pliable, no where near as bad as before though. I need to get some 6B&S for further practice on this and the other great suggestions that have been put forward ....... perhaps not the asbestos though[biggrin]

You’ll struggle to find an iron that can do it. You want a small butane blow torch. One of these heating the fitting works a treat

Tradeflame Pocket Blow Torch With Refillable Fuel Cartridge (https://www.bunnings.com.au/tradeflame-pocket-blow-torch-with-refillable-fuel-cartridge_p5910261)

[Don 130]

You’ll struggle to find an iron that can do it. You want a small butane blow torch. One of these heating the fitting works a treat

Tradeflame Pocket Blow Torch With Refillable Fuel Cartridge (https://www.bunnings.com.au/tradeflame-pocket-blow-torch-with-refillable-fuel-cartridge_p5910261)

Pretty sure there's no bunnings in Muscat, Oman DiscoJeffster, however Ooops may find something useful here (https://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?catId=0&initiative_id=SB_20171201021807&SearchText=butane+soldering+torch)
I've got one that came from Aldi as a 'special buy'. I take off the soldering tip and use the torch feature to solder 6B+S.
Don.

[DiscoJeffster]

It’s about the product, not the supplier. He’ll get the idea.

[goingbush]

Im making an electric car at present . All the cable to lug joints have to be crimped , dozens of them. solder joins are a no - no . Chinese 8 ton Hydraulic crimper works a treat, Should have bought one years ago.

Also use of dielectric grease on connections is recommended. As I used to have to use when working on batteries in Telecom

Batt wire lugs: crimp, solder, or hammer crimp? - DIY Electric Car Forums (http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/batt-wire-lugs-crimp-solder-hammer-54827.html)

[Ooops]

Im making an electric car at present . All the cable to lug joints have to be crimped , dozens of them. solder joins are a no - no . Chinese 8 ton Hydraulic crimper works a treat
:eek2: GB I think you're boxing well above my league [biggrin]


You’ll struggle to find an iron that can do it. You want a small butane blow torch. One of these heating the fitting works a treat ..... It’s about the product, not the supplier. He’ll get the idea.
Thanks DiscoJeffster, I did indeed get the idea


I take off the soldering tip and use the torch feature to solder 6B+S.
Don.
Thanks Don, your reference to having used it & how on 6 B&S is just the hands on info that I was looking for.


Gents armed with your combined info I did a bit of research and it seems the chaps at home are raving about the Portosol Super Pro. Although I couldn't see any one working with 6 B&S the specs from the examples you gave suggest it'll be a winner. Its got a few bells and whistles but as its Christmas I'm getting one sent out [biggrin]

[AK83]

I have been told by Sparkies that a crimped fitting is superior to a soldered one especially when there is a high current draw.
.....

As with any opinion, everyone is welcomed to their own .. but don't mistake an opinion as a well founded test.

if a crimped connection was so much better than a soldered one, how do you explain the common D2 positive battery lead issue.
All three D2's I have access too have the dreadful positive terminal lead falling to pieces issue.

On my D2 I'm going to replace it with a proper battery clamp with multiple connections to begin with and then solder the cable to a lug so it doesn't fall to pieces again.
The earth lead on my D2 was cactus too(rusted and pathetic looking connections) but on the spare car I got for it's parts, looks like someone had recently changed it's earth lead to a new-ish one at some point not tooo long ago, so I at least got a way with a cheap fix for my D2's earth lead too.

I can't say for sure if one is better than another as I've never done the testing to prove it one way or another. Common sense dictates that a soldered connection is always better than a non soldered connection. Just that large starter type cables, even 6B&S types aren't easy to solder.

The commonly held view with cables is that solder is always better than crimping ... just that this commonly held view usually elates to the much smaller, up to 5mm, type cables.

never done an anderson plug, but done a lot of cable recently of that size with the dual battery installs.
I used the blow torch method to heat the lug, fill it with solder and while it's hot and insert the cable into the lug with solder. Do it where the mess won't harm anything, as this method may cause solder overflow.
My first cable(2B&S) I wasn't happy with, but on all the other cables I subsequently did, I did the procedure twice.
First time to tin the cable itself. Heat the lug again to remove the cable, and do it again.

[bee utey]

Where I've seen soldered lugs fail is where they are insecurely bolted to their terminal. The heat generated by the loose/dirty connection travels down to the solder joint and empties it. Crimped lugs don't have that problem. It happens just often enough to be worth noting.

[DiscoJeffster]

Where I've seen soldered lugs fail is where they are insecurely bolted to their terminal. The heat generated by the loose/dirty connection travels down to the solder joint and empties it. Crimped lugs don't have that problem. It happens just often enough to be worth noting.

Hence I apply a mechanical connection (a crimp) and an electrical protected connection (solder) for the best of both worlds. Solder keeps the cable to lug interface protected from the environment and the mechanical physical crimping ensures they’re physically mated.

The one thing soldered joints are really poor for is flexibility. A crimped only joint will function much better where the cable must flex up to the joint. Soldered joints tend to be stiff and brittle at the lug/pin interface.

[trout1105]

As with any opinion, everyone is welcomed to their own .. but don't mistake an opinion as a well founded test.

The Bloke that gave me the opinion that a crimped fitting is superior to a soldered one had been a sparky for over 30 years and was running his own electrical contracting business in Darwin.
I am Not talking "house bashing" work here most of our work was for the power company in Darwin as well as PWD work, One of our contracts involved commissioning a gas fired power plant at Tennant Creek So this bloke knew what he was talking about.

NONE of our connections were soldered ALL were crimped from wire as thin as a tooth pic to wire fatter than your thumb and voltages up to 440V.
This bloke was meticulous with his work and IF soldered fittings were a better option then he would have soldered them, He Didn't. [bigwhistle]

[Ooops]

Just to let you know that I collected this Portosol SP-1K from the post office this morning
133783
So far I've only had a chance to play with smallish stuff but my what a machine.
Its got a few more bells and whistle than the suggested examples but then it is Christmas and I've been really, really good so I think it'll be ok :angel:

I can't wait to try it out on the big stuff

Between this, the Hakko and the hot air station I nearly have all the bases covered. I just need a decent crimper for a full house.

Many thanks to you all for your suggestions and advice, its very much appreciated

[RANDLOVER]

Another thing to consider is, under a fault condition i.e. high current and hence high heat, a solder connection could melt, which may be a a good or bad thing, good if cable disconnects itself from the battery, bad if it disconnects from the load but falls onto the chassis, (before the fuse of-course).