How to lose your DRIVERS licence for a fine you've never been issued. - In WA

[superquag]

This is a caution for the Common Man - and impoverished Land Rover owners, you know, folk who enjoy 'DRIVING' their Pride & Joy.

Here's the story. My middle aged son just rang me, Today, Christmas Day, with the Merry News that it appears he's been driving on a SUSPENDED licence... for nearly NINE months. Oddly, in that time he's been licence-checked (manually) more than once, the last Copper went ALL the way back through... and complimented his clean slate in recent times. / couple of years
Then there are the Number Plate Recognition Systems fitted to many patrol cars,, and as he drives on major freeways & highways he must have been scanned many times.

The take-home lesson is.. even if the copper hands you back the licence... you have NO assurance that you are legally, 'good to go sir'. And never mind about the NPRS above, it wont catch you inside NINE months of regular freeway & highway travelling...

Anyway, today's Cop of The Year took his licence - on the spot - because of outstanding / UNpaid fine from..... March 2017 for failing to vote. (had to find a driver to move his car home.. but C.O.T.Y did NOT check if this guy even had a licence...)

In WA not so long ago if you fail to vote in a State Election, you would receive a Stern Letter demanding a 'Valid Reason'. This could be dispose of by providing said reason - or just pay the nominated fine. End of story until next election.
Last time I looked, the fine was $25.

Today, they don't send the Stern Letter.. - he never received one and nor did we at our address. - so one wonders if this is a conspiracy to extract more money from the WA public.

The fine? - $153 and a few cents, I think.

Now, and he is eager to pay for his heinous criminality, what do you think are his chances of finding anyone or govt department who can both accept the income... AND, most importantly, how is he going to get his licence back? In the midst of the Silly Season.
We think he has lost his job (involves driving) and now Centrelink may have to pick up some of the fallout.

Well done Electoral Commission !!! - how do you think he will bother to vote in the next election ? valid or not ?

Just asking...[bigwhistle]

[Tins]

What would worry me about this is his getting his DL suspended for a non driving related offence. That would seem to be stretching the "long arm of the law" a little bit too far, IMV.

I'm tipping the penalty for "driving whilst disqualified" is going to be more than $153 and a few cents, as well. What did COTY pull him over for in the first place?

[Gordie]

What would worry me about this is his getting his DL suspended for a non driving related offence. That would seem to be stretching the "long arm of the law" a little bit too far, IMV.

I'm tipping the penalty for "driving whilst disqualified" is going to be more than $153 and a few cents, as well. What did COTY pull him over for in the first place?That is a way of trying to get people to pay their fines, and considering how many people don't pay their fines...IMO good to do whatever they can to get the money. Not commenting on this case in particular.

He is not 'driving whilst disqualified'. As John says, that would be much more than a fine, that is a day in court. He is driving under suspension for fines, which is an instant fine.

[p38arover]

What would worry me about this is his getting his DL suspended for a non driving related offence. That would seem to be stretching the "long arm of the law" a little bit too far, IMV.

Happens regularly in NSW. See Enforcement action | Revenue NSW (http://www.revenue.nsw.gov.au/fines/ea)

Not only that, if the fine is unpaid, one may not be able to travel overseas.

[Tins]

That is a way of trying to get people to pay their fines, and considering how many people don't pay their fines...IMO good to do whatever they can to get the money. Not commenting on this case in particular.

He is not 'driving whilst disqualified'. As John says, that would be much more than a fine, that is a day in court. He is driving under suspension for fines, which is an instant fine.

In Vic it would be. A suspension is disqualification here. Can't speak for WA though.

As for your first point, is taking away your right to drive, remembering that MANY people rely on driving to earn their living, a fair response for some other trivial offence? An offence he was probably unaware of? Seems a little Draconian to me. What about second and third and final notices? What about a letter informing of potential suspension?

Then there's the money aspect. It usually costs more to pursue payment of fines than is recouped from the fine itself, so "getting the money" is irrelevant.

Before anyone starts jumping up and down, I am NOT saying laws should not be enforced. I am saying that taking away someone's livelihood is NOT the way to get that someone to pay a fine. In Vic, the Sherriff does an admirable job of ensuring fines get paid. No loss of income involved.

[Tins]

Happens regularly in NSW. Not only that, if the fine is unpaid, one can't travel overseas.

Well, NSW is the most Draconian of all. Getting fined for, say, littering should have no bearing on one's DL. The two things are unrelated.

This whole thing is just another example of how our 'rights' are being eroded by stealth.

[Gordie]

No one has the 'right' to drive. It is a privilege. In this state and I suspect the others...it is a last ditch attempt at getting the money. I suspect you are a good citizen like I am , I pay my fines. You would pay your fines. There are a lot of people out there who commit offences, and laugh at the penalties and fines(I have seen it). As a good citizen I applaud that those people are forced somehow to pay their fine. For justice to be applied. We all whinge on here at how people get away with crimes, so I don't think we should whinge when someone after many payment reminders, loses their licence as a last resort.

Once again, not commenting on the OP's situation, as it seems his son genuinely did not get the mail, and there are cases where if you have moved address etc, that can happen. In this state, it was a defence if you did not receive said notices.

A fines suspension, which is usually notified to you by mail...is not a disqualification, in the sense of a court issued disqualification. That is an offence which can be punished by gaol. As the offender has thumbed his nose at a magistrate and driven. And said offender has been told that to the face by a magistrate. Not a notice in the mail.

[donh54]

Fines and forfeiture without a ruling by a court of competent jurisdiction are illegal. Look up the Imperial Acts Application Act.
I too, agree that you should be held responsible for your actions, but if any government is going to jump on "lawbreakers", it must do so within the constitutional law of the land.

[superquag]

Yes the same here, threats to your DL are in place for all road traffic offences, and include parking violations against local councils.
As annoying as it is, there is a sound logic, but pointless to challenge a govt. regulation. And yes, I also would expect at least ONE "This is Your Last Chance" demand before the axe fell.

Actually, speaking of State Debt... this could be a nice little earner, "sell" this Service to Debt Collectors.. now add this to the bunch of heavies on your front door with their hands out. or Legal Letters from Private Parking Companies - the Gendarmes will pounce as you drive off to work.[bigsad] )
- The Copper's lot is a sorry one and getting worse !

But for a POLITICAL matter...? I think the insidiousness of that is offensive. Next tiny step is checking the validity of each and every vote cast, - before the elector leaves the polling station.
- One wonders what the situation is in other (civilised) countries, UK, Europe, NZ.

Granted, he has moved house several times in recent years, his Grandfather's residence being the go-to postal address for other departments, or our home one. Either way, any mail received would very quickly find it's target. Nothing has been seen that hasn't been passed on, and the WAEC logo has never appeared at either.

COTY chose not to fine him (on the spot) for 'Driving without a valid Licence' - but enforced the immediate compliance.

Meanwhile, no govt offices open anywhere until next year - sometime. And in the coming week.. he sits and watches his job (most likely) going down the toilet.
No employment, - no ability to pay a fine and fines on top of fines..

[Gordie]

- One wonders what the situation is in other (civilised) countries, UK, Europe, NZ.
.Compulsory to be on the electoral role in NZ, but not compulsory to vote.

[Ferret]

In the news only yesterday.

Failure-to-vote fines earn NSW government millions of dollars (http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/failuretovote-fines-earn-nsw-government-millions-of-dollars-20171219-h07h0g.html)


More than 400,000 people have been sent an Apparent Failure to Vote Notice for the 2017 local government elections after almost 530,000 people, or 20 per cent of 2.73 million eligible voters, failed to cast a vote on September 9.

....The failure to pay a fine in NSW may also lead to the suspension of a drivers' licence.

[Eevo]

about 10 years ago, i moved house 3 times in 12 months. i got a parking fine but never got the fine at the time and never got the reminder notices in the mail. about 12 months later I bought a car and tried to register it in my name. was told there is a block on my name due to an unpaid fine and it had gone to the courts. went down the court payments unit. it was a $20 fine. told the person i never got the notice. no problems, just fill in this form. bla bla bla. as I'm filling in the form, the person asks me: "did you know you have a bench warrant out in your name?"

what a great system we have.

[rangieman]

Compulsory to be on the electoral role in NZ, but not compulsory to vote.
Im sure it is the other way around here[bighmmm]

[Eevo]

Im sure it is the other way around here[bighmmm]

here its compulsory to get your name ticked off on election day, not to actually vote.

[rangieman]

here its compulsory to get your name ticked off on election day, not to actually vote.
It is not compulsory to be on the electoral role , If you are on the electoral role it is compulsory to get your name ticked off yes[wink11]

[superquag]

here its compulsory to get your name ticked off on election day, not to actually vote.

Neat and relatively pain - free way of keeping one's nose clean !


Comment from someone who works for 'them'.

Yes, correct. Present yourself, get marked off for your own electorate, receive appropriate ballot papers and envelope and be instructed to either deposit in ballot box when finished or returned, sealed, to Issuing Officer for 'other electorate' counting.
Officers do NOT record details of 'who' needs to return sealed ballot / vote, cannot and do not enforce compliance so elector is free and able to walk out, with no consequences.
Some do. [bigwhistle]

But as has been mentioned, this alone is a great little money-earner, and with fines priced well, many more folk will simply pay up ($20, $25?) online, now... and finish the matter rather than sitting down and WRITING out the reason, POSTING it off... and risk being REJECTED - and fined more anyway. [bawl]

The next step is for gov't to make this.. Debt collection "service" available to commercial use... such as Private Parking Company(s). [bigwhistle]

Good news to hand, a mate has risen to the need and offered driving services for the next three days, which gets him through this week...

[pop058]

Neat and relatively pain - free way of keeping one's nose clean !


Comment from someone who works for 'them'.

Yes, correct. Present yourself, get marked off for your own electorate, receive appropriate ballot papers and envelope and be instructed to either deposit in ballot box when finished or returned, sealed, to Issuing Officer for 'other electorate' counting.
Officers do NOT record details of 'who' needs to return sealed ballot / vote, cannot and do not enforce compliance so elector is free and able to walk out, with no consequences.
Some do.

But as has been mentioned, this alone is a great little money-earner, and with fines priced well, many more folk will simply pay up ($20, $25?) online, now... and finish the matter rather than sitting down and WRITING out the reason, POSTING it off... and risk being REJECTED - and fined more anyway. [bawl]

[B] The next step is for gov't to make this.. Debt collection "service" available to commercial use... such as Private Parking Company(s). [bigwhistle]

Good news to hand, a mate has risen to the need and offered driving services for the next three days, which gets him through this week...

Already the case with toll collections in QLD. Unpaid tolls are refereed to SPER ( State Penalties Enforcement Registry (https://www.sper.qld.gov.au/) )

[superquag]

Already the case with toll collections in QLD. Unpaid tolls are refereed to SPER ( State Penalties Enforcement Registry (https://www.sper.qld.gov.au/) )

And who said that Govt run agencies are financially inefficient ? [biggrin][biggrin][biggrin]

Good news this end, Career Criminal managed to find 'someone' on the end of a phone and paid his $153 fine...
told that it takes 48 hours to wend its way through the Machine, so licence would be automatically UN-suspended in 48h + 1second. Friday mid-morning.

Now to find out how and who enrolled him...

[CraigE]

His licence should be reinstated as soon as he pays the fine. Pretty unreasonable to take it off him if he did not know he even had a fine. Talk to your local MP.
Having said that if you dont vote dont complain about the government or any of the laws as you dont have the right.

[Gordie]

Pretty unreasonable to take it off him if he did not know he even had a fine. .That is why we are expected to change our address on our licence when we move house. But yes, there is the occasional genuine case of missing mail and in that case, as you advised, take it further.

[DiscoMick]

I know someone whose licence was cancelled because he didn't pay tolls, but he deserved it as he's a ratbag.
I didn't realise a fine for not voting was linked to a licence. Seems a bit unconnected.
I know there are billions of $ in unpaid fines out there, so I guess they have just run out of patience with fine-defaulters.

[superquag]

As I suspected.. Big Brother is alive and well.. tucked away in the morass of new legislation is the 'right' of the AEC and State Electoral Commissions to "Direct Enroll" you.. based on - drum roll - information shared from and by other govt. agencies. - Who are constantly cross referencing data.

Mystery solved.

[mick88]

That is why we are expected to change our address on our licence when we move house. But yes, there is the occasional genuine case of missing mail and in that case, as you advised, take it further.

Here in Victoria.
Here the address on your licence is your residential address, and to a lesser extent, the address where your vehicle is "garaged" and not necessarily your postal address. They won't accept a PO Box address as the primary address for a licence or rego, as they don't like you living in them, plus there is not enough room to "garage" your vehicle.

As for the failing to vote penalty, I wonder what they do if you are one of the few who have elected to never hold a drivers licence or drive/own a car? Maybe a prison sentence?
The way some of our so called Politicians are behaving/non performing these days, there should be a penalty for those who did vote for them. ;)

On another note I once tried explaining to an ASIC employee who was obviously city based, that the "postman" didn't deliver mail to our house (residential address in a rural area), I just couldn't get the message across. I gave up in the end, way toooo hard.

Cheers, Mick.

[CraigE]

That is why we are expected to change our address on our licence when we move house. But yes, there is the occasional genuine case of missing mail and in that case, as you advised, take it further.

Yeah I agree with that, but they maybe should have given him 24hrs to pay the fine and then maybe revoked it. I dont agree with drivers licences being revoked for fines that are not traffic infringement related. I know it is hard to get some people to pay fines, but not the answer either.
I know once I got a notice saying I had an unpaid fine for not voting, even though they were notified immediately of the reason. Never heard anything again after re-submitting the reason, but whos to know if it was cancelled or still out there?

[Mick_Marsh]

On another note I once tried explaining to an ASIC employee who was obviously city based, that the "postman" didn't deliver mail to our house (residential address in a rural area), I just couldn't get the message across. I gave up in the end, way toooo hard.
A work colleague had recently moved to Castlemaine. In the exercise of changing addresses, he was astounded with the amount of people who wanted tho know which capitol city Castlemaine was a suburb of. He actually lived in a suburb of Castlemaine which made it even more confusing for them.

[Eevo]

A work colleague had recently moved to Castlemaine. In the exercise of changing addresses, he was astounded with the amount of people who wanted tho know which capitol city Castlemaine was a suburb of. He actually lived in a suburb of Castlemaine which made it even more confusing for them.

easy to do if you dont live in vic. i had to look it up.

[gavinwibrow]

As I suspected.. Big Brother is alive and well.. tucked away in the morass of new legislation is the 'right' of the AEC and State Electoral Commissions to "Direct Enroll" you.. based on - drum roll - information shared from and by other govt. agencies. - Who are constantly cross referencing data.

Mystery solved.

1 Have to admit, I didn't know that, apart from them always cross referencing each others rolls. I'd better let my SIL know, who until recently refused to enroll on principle after his dad was wrongfully imprisoned whilst he (SIL) was a much younger tacker.

2 Have you updated your AEC info for the "impending" by-elections for Fremantle etc? If not, why not, you know you need another fly!

[101RRS]

apart from them always cross referencing each others rolls. I'd better let my SIL know, who until recently refused to enroll on principle after his dad was wrongfully imprisoned whilst he (SIL) was a much younger tacker.

There is only one Roll - that is the one held by the AEC (Federal) - the States use this Roll they do not have their own. Yes if you have a rates notice, drivers licence, medicare card etc etc etc - automatic updates to the Electoral Roll will catch you up sooner or later though some of the reporting agencies are a bit slack.

[V8Ian]

A work colleague had recently moved to Castlemaine. In the exercise of changing addresses, he was astounded with the amount of people who wanted tho know which capitol city Castlemaine was a suburb of. He actually lived in a suburb of Castlemaine which made it even more confusing for them.
There must be a lot of ineligible people on the roll. Back-packers, international students et al, all qualify for drivers' licences, car rego and phones etc., but not a vote in Australian elections.

[mick88]

A work colleague had recently moved to Castlemaine. In the exercise of changing addresses, he was astounded with the amount of people who wanted tho know which capitol city Castlemaine was a suburb of. He actually lived in a suburb of Castlemaine which made it even more confusing for them.

I would have told them I live across the road from the Four X Brewery. ;)

Cheers, Mick.

[JDNSW]

NSW has recently introduced automatic "correction" of the electoral roll for changes of address, as noted from Council records, drivers licence, registration etc. A few months ago they transferred me (on the electoral roll) to a different local government area, as the address assigned to me by the council showed I was in the adjoining area (its on the other side of my fence!). I now have an address that states I am in a town 90km away by road, a notice from council that this will be changed to a village 75km away, and a letter from the state government saying I will be returned to the address I had earlier in the year, by changing the boundary. No word of how the electoral commission's software will deal with this!

So what is my address? There is no mail delivery anyway, so I pick up my mail from the community mail centre in a village 6km away (40km by public road).

[DiscoMick]

There must be a lot of ineligible people on the roll. Back-packers, international students et al, all qualify for drivers' licences, car rego and phones etc., but not a vote in Australian elections.
They would not be Australian citizens so they couldn't be enrolled to vote.

[Mick_Marsh]

I used to live in a flat above a fellow from NZ. Nice chap. Liked a drink.
He never had a licence. "Why should I get one? They'd only take it off me." Wise words, hey.
He only drove old unregistered cars. Every time the police took one from him, he'd buy another one at the pub for $50.

And here's me. I pay a fortune each year on licences and registration so they can fine me.

[Gordie]

I used to live in a flat above a fellow from NZ. Nice chap. Liked a drink.
He never had a licence. "Why should I get one? They'd only take it off me." Wise words, hey.
He only drove old unregistered cars. Every time the police took one from him, he'd buy another one at the pub for $50.

And here's me. I pay a fortune each year on licences and registration so they can fine me.Exactly, I have often said, that if I wasn't so inclined to do the right thing, I would be much better off saving on the rego...and copping the occasional fine....although the age of number plate recognition cameras has sort of blown that theory.

[67hardtop]

NSW has recently introduced automatic "correction" of the electoral roll for changes of address, as noted from Council records, drivers licence, registration etc. A few months ago they transferred me (on the electoral roll) to a different local government area, as the address assigned to me by the council showed I was in the adjoining area (its on the other side of my fence!). I now have an address that states I am in a town 90km away by road, a notice from council that this will be changed to a village 75km away, and a letter from the state government saying I will be returned to the address I had earlier in the year, by changing the boundary. No word of how the electoral commission's software will deal with this!

So what is my address? There is no mail delivery anyway, so I pick up my mail from the community mail centre in a village 6km away (40km by public road).
I wanna come live with you John.

[67hardtop]

On another note, as the OP was saying, i got caught in Bunbury with my old mans HK Brougham one night after speedway laying a broggie in a gravel car park. Local in a tonner was laying huge burnouts and others cheering him on. Copper took my name etc. I asked him why i got charged for "excessive noise" when it was just a tiny skid in a gravel carpark when the other guy was smoking it up on the road. Answer was "He's a local, i can get him any time, you're not." So i get a summons to go to Bunbury Court. Didnt go coz it was 3+ hours drive away and so i signed the summons and, being very nieve, waited for them to contact me. Didn't happen. About a year later i was pulled over by local copper (who had a grudge with me (over another matter)), he told me i was driving while under suspension. I said i didn't know i was suspended. He told me about the Bunbury Court results and booked me. I had received a 1 month suspension for excessive noise. I didn't know that i was responsible for finding out the result. But ignorance of the law is no defence. 9 month suspension on top of the 1 month. Wife heavily pregnant with 3rd kid. Not happy but took my punishment. Nasty copper. Another copper would have let me get home but not that *****. I had to walk almost 9 miles home with 2 kids in tow. No taxi in Narrogin at that time. The copper that pulled me over didn't like me beating him at speedway in street stocks division in my totally stock HR holden. He drove a xy 250 falcon. I had a mate in Williams who was a copper and he said he would have let me drive home and given me a warning as it was only 1 day after the court result. But yes you can lose you're licence over an unrelated matter in WA.

Cheers Rod

[mick88]

In this area a couple of years back a serial offending recalcitrant was caught driving whilst disqualified, in an unregistered vehicle, and "possibly" drug and or alcohol affected as well. The vehicle number plates were removed and the offender charged. The following day he drove again and at very, very, high speed, leaving a built up area with a speed restriction zone, he wrapped the vehicle around a power pole out the front of a school, just twenty minutes before school ended. Fortunately he was the only person involved in the accident and did not survive. Twenty minutes later and the scenario may have been far worse.
There are some people who will always have total disregard for the law and never have consideration for the safety of others.

Here is another example that occurred locally in the same area.
A 21 year old female with 10 disqualified driving offences has copped a 44 year driving ban and will be aged 65 in 2061 before she can apply for a drivers licence.
Do you reckon she will wait that long before she gets behind the wheel again ;)

Driver cops 44-year ban | Sunraysia Daily (http://www.sunraysiadaily.com.au/story/5095658/driver-cops-44-year-ban/)

Cheers, Mick.

[67hardtop]

Nope

[AndyG]

I wanna come live with you John.
If JDNSW Could post hishow to get to my house directions, you will see why the govt is confused and why we all want to move there [emoji12] finding his house should be a rite of passage for all Aulroans [emoji3]

[AndyG]

If JDNSW Could post hishow to get to my house directions, you will see why the govt is confused and why we all want to move there [emoji12] finding his house should be a rite of passage for all Aulroans [emoji3]
Edit
Enen the Hema said computer says no