2.2 TDCi (Puma) CAT Delete

[DazzaTD5]

For the ones that are interested, recently had to replace a blown turbo on a Defender 2.2lt TDCi (puma) and did a CAT delete at the same time. Bit of a pain to get out, had to undo the engine mount nut and jack up engine, then still had to bend bracket on cat before I could squeeze it out. Should be the same deal for a 2.4 TDCi (puma) but as the CAT is a bit smaller it may well just fall out.

Its a great mod to do, the improvement dare I say.... better than some remaps and a darn sight cheaper [tonguewink]

Regards
Daz

134140

[debruiser]

can I ask where you got the pipe? off the shelf or custom job from a local exhaust shop?

[DazzaTD5]

can I ask where you got the pipe? off the shelf or custom job from a local exhaust shop?

oh thought that might have been obvious, maybe not.... local exhaust guy did it for me and I wrapped it.

Regards
Daz

[martnH]

Thanks for sharing....
So did you use an engine hoist?
Seems like a big job...

[Tombie]

No need to undo anything or lift the engine at all to remove.

Just unbolt, cut the bracket off, cut the cat from the pipe at the bottom.
Rotate cat anti-clockwise and being bottom towards rear of vehicle and it will drop out.

Took me and the local exhaust guy 10-15 min to remove.

[Tombie]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/12/761.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/12/762.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/12/763.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/12/764.jpg

[SSmith]

2.4 comes out if you remove the Gearbox crossmember still a PITA!!!!!

I like Tombies method 🖒

[DazzaTD5]

No need to undo anything or lift the engine at all to remove.

Just unbolt, cut the bracket off, cut the cat from the pipe at the bottom.
Rotate cat anti-clockwise and being bottom towards rear of vehicle and it will drop out.

Took me and the local exhaust guy 10-15 min to remove.

As it was a customers vehicle I didnt want to burn my bridges until I was certain, by the time I'd dropped the section off to my exhaust guy I'd decided it was a one way path.

but yes the way you did it was easier!

Regards
Daz

[DazzaTD5]

Thanks for sharing....
So did you use an engine hoist?
Seems like a big job...

No no, its a simple job either how I did it or Tombie. could easily been done in a driveway at home.

And with a Defender... get used to removing the cross member, it gives you a chance to clean the ends up and coat it with some anti rust etc and to anti seize the bolts

Regards
Daz

[PAT303]

2.4 comes out if you remove the Gearbox crossmember still a PITA!!!!!

I like Tombies method 🖒

Took me about 1 hour to do my 2.4.Undid the bolts,cut the bottom pipe off the cat with a grinder,a bit of a twist and out it came.A new de-cat pipe from the UK for $130 or so landed at my door,it went straight in with a twist and bolted up,I recon I could do it in under an hour now.The difference is less cabin heat,more go,much more go actually and about another 100k's to a tank,downside,less engine braking. Pat

[debruiser]

Took me about 1 hour to do my 2.4.Undid the bolts,cut the bottom pipe off the cat with a grinder,a bit of a twist and out it came.A new de-cat pipe from the UK for $130 or so landed at my door,it went straight in with a twist and bolted up,I recon I could do it in under an hour now.The difference is less cabin heat,more go,much more go actually and about another 100k's to a tank,downside,less engine braking. Pat

Now I'm listening! that much more go really? AND better fuel economy? but I like engine braking.... hmmm....

So what sort of total cost should I be thinking to get a pipe made up (if I pull the old one out and take it down the local exhaust shop)?

[Bru]

Very interested in doing this Daz, I’ve got a 2.4 2010 what sort of cost are we looking at I’m in Freo so no problem to drop around, I’ll assume you’re on a bit of a break at the moment.
Cheers Bruce

[gavinwibrow]

Very interested in doing this Daz, I’ve got a 2.4 2010 what sort of cost are we looking at I’m in Freo so no problem to drop around, I’ll assume you’re on a bit of a break at the moment.
Cheers Bruce

And being in Freo, you can leave the car with him and catch the bus route 998/999 almost door to door, apart from being about a 90 minute bus trip!!! OR, sometimes he has a loaner available, and I believe just scored himself a reasonable D2 which he is contemplating as a keeper.

[PAT303]

Now I'm listening! that much more go really? AND better fuel economy? but I like engine braking.... hmmm....

So what sort of total cost should I be thinking to get a pipe made up (if I pull the old one out and take it down the local exhaust shop)?

The difference in performance is very noticeable,consumption dropped from 11-12 ltres per hundred taking it easy to getting in the 10's without trying. I wouldn't get a pipe made up,I'd buy one,I ordered mine Sunday night and had it Thursday afternoon,best yet it bolted straight up,easiest mod I have ever done. Pat

[PAT303]

Very interested in doing this Daz, I’ve got a 2.4 2010 what sort of cost are we looking at I’m in Freo so no problem to drop around, I’ll assume you’re on a bit of a break at the moment.
Cheers Bruce

Bruce,I have a 2011 2.4,it's really very simple. Pat

[PAT303]

Just thinking,you can take mine for a run,that way you can notice the difference. Pat

[skidrov]

A new de-cat pipe from the UK for $130 or so landed at my door

Hey Pat, do you mind telling us who you got it from in the UK and how long ago? Not expecting a guarantee on the price, it'd just be good to know where to start...

[Bru]

Got to love the forum, I’ll 2nd that if you can pass on where you picked yours up I’ll give it a crack.
Cheers

[PAT303]

I bought this one Land Rover Defender 90 and 110 Exhaust | John Craddock Ltd (https://www.johncraddockltd.co.uk/land-rover-defender/defender-90-and-110/parts/exhaust/'si=decat&searchwithin=Go). Pat

[filcar]

The difference in performance is very noticeable,consumption dropped from 11-12 ltres per hundred taking it easy to getting in the 10's without trying. I wouldn't get a pipe made up,I'd buy one,I ordered mine Sunday night and had it Thursday afternoon,best yet it bolted straight up,easiest mod I have ever done. Pat

De-cat pipes aren't being made for the 2.2 as far as I can find.

[Bru]

Cheers pat
Happy new year

[Tombie]

De-cat pipes aren't being made for the 2.2 as far as I can find.

Decat, New pipe, new straight through - $400 at our local Exhaust shop...

Make sure you find one willing to do it - many won’t remove the Cat...

[debruiser]

I found some performance ones that came wroth a whole system. But was more than I cats to spend

[filcar]

Decat, New pipe, new straight through - $400 at our local Exhaust shop...

Make sure you find one willing to do it - many won’t remove the Cat...

I meant the pipes from the likes of Craddocks etc, and yeah I have found reluctance at some exhaust shops to the point where 1 guy actually abused me for enquiring, he won't be getting any work from me ever.

[rangieman]

I meant the pipes from the likes of Craddocks etc, and yeah I have found reluctance at some exhaust shops to the point where 1 guy actually abused me for enquiring, he won't be getting any work from me ever.

In all fairness it is illegal for a registered business or any one to remove cat`s so you might not go back to him but if he was caught or dobbed in he would be in for one almighty hefty fine [bighmmm]

[DazzaTD5]

Yes just like a remap, doing a de-cat and plenty of other mods are "for offroad use only".

I try not to abuse potential customers, if I get a job I dont want to do, I simply say I'm too busy or I dont do that sort of work.
I charged $260 plus the wrapping, which aint cheap, the labour was covered with the turbo job being done at the time.

Ohh and by removing the exhaust section in one piece it makes it very easy for exhaust guy to do the delete, as in it fitted back perfect.

Regards
Daz

[DazzaTD5]

and I believe just scored himself a reasonable D2 which he is contemplating as a keeper.

Well how dare you besmirch my good name Sir!

Regards
Daz

[ATH]

A D2 woud be too old for you Darren, buy my exceptionally well kept 110 instead....... HNY to y'all. [wink11]
AlanH.

[Witchdoctor]

Is there a downside to this mod?

[dlatn]

Dirty air, improved efficiency and prison for six months

[Toxic_Avenger]

As someone who has had registration revoked, had to undergo a vehicle inspection, and revert everything to standard following a roadside vehicle check identifying a 'non-standard intake and exhaust', I'd rather not go thru all that again.
By all means remove it, but when you get yellow stickered, have to front up to a RMS vehicle mechanic to go thru all the hoops, then be prepared to make it all standard again.

[donh54]

As someone who has had registration revoked, had to undergo a vehicle inspection, and revert everything to standard following a roadside vehicle check identifying a 'non-standard intake and exhaust', I'd rather not go thru all that again.
By all means remove it, but when you get yellow stickered, have to front up to a RMS vehicle mechanic to go thru all the hoops, then be prepared to make it all standard again.

Hence buying a replacement pipe- at least gives you the option of a refit.

[Tombie]

As someone who has had registration revoked, had to undergo a vehicle inspection, and revert everything to standard following a roadside vehicle check identifying a 'non-standard intake and exhaust', I'd rather not go thru all that again.
By all means remove it, but when you get yellow stickered, have to front up to a RMS vehicle mechanic to go thru all the hoops, then be prepared to make it all standard again.

Hahaha!!! Let me guess, in a Ricer...

And you went the whole “pod” filter intake and booming rear muffler?

That’s just a magnet!

[DazzaTD5]

Yes indeed what Tombie said....

If you are going to be a heat seeker you will attract attention.

Regards
Daz

[Toxic_Avenger]

Foiled again!
This was in my 300zx. Big plazmaman Front mount intercooler, Pod filter airbox* (see comments below), full twin system with high flow cat converters, and 'modified' emissions control gear (EGR and cat air induction valves). Yes it attracts attention, but principle is the same irrespective of vehicle- if it's modified, its going to land you in strife. All I can say is go in with your eyes open.

* Car was supplied with OE cat convertors pre euro spec, and I had installed a higher effectiveness 'euro3' spec cat. I was made to revert to 20 year old cats (likely contaminated and non-functioning!) as they were 'standard fitment'.
The pod filters were on an airbox arrangement, and these were installed forward of the radiator- technically outside of the engine compartment! No bueno on this count.
The pollution control gear was inoperable, and this was the biggest issue to get resolved. Re-fitting an EGR valve, standard turbo manifold and modifying the exhaust to accept the AIV's was a bigger pain in the ass.

[Tombie]

I’ll bet it was!!!
Brother In Law (moron) was renown for modifications that made his vehicles magnets.. his numbered plate didn’t help either!

Spent more time returning it to stock than driving it..

[matthamilton]

You guys are awesome! Best thread I’ve read in a long time.

[Patrol 32]

Daz,

Have a look at my FaceBook Page: FBD Modifications. Could have done you a very effective ceramic coating on your new exhaust and could have rebuilt your turbo much better and cheaper than buying a new one. Just saying.....


For the ones that are interested, recently had to replace a blown turbo on a Defender 2.2lt TDCi (puma) and did a CAT delete at the same time. Bit of a pain to get out, had to undo the engine mount nut and jack up engine, then still had to bend bracket on cat before I could squeeze it out. Should be the same deal for a 2.4 TDCi (puma) but as the CAT is a bit smaller it may well just fall out.

Its a great mod to do, the improvement dare I say.... better than some remaps and a darn sight cheaper [tonguewink]

Regards
Daz

134140

[Witchdoctor]

Where do you get that flanged piece from or can the exhaust shop make it?

Cheers

Dave

[Tombie]

Where do you get that flanged piece from or can the exhaust shop make it?

Cheers

Dave

Just used the shop gear and made it.

[PAT303]

Where do you get that flanged piece from or can the exhaust shop make it?

Cheers

Dave

The bit that Daz oxy torched off you mean?,you don't need it.**** it all off,including the heat shield and run a straight through pipe from the turbo back. Pat

[Witchdoctor]

I was meaning the new piece of pipe with that flat flange on it guys.

Had to drive back from Evans Heads this arvo, outside temp was around 29-31deg's. stick with me.

I have had that big exhaust can under my seat replaced with a full flow sport job. I have also had the rear can replaced with a smaller full flow sports job.

So I had my electronic temp gun with me, the temp in the passengers footwell was 37.2deg's drivers side was 47.8deg's. So by removing the Cat can & wrapping the new pipe with heat tape will this reduce the heat under my feet?

If removing the Cat will reduce the heat I'm going to do it yesterday.

Cheers
Dave

[PAT303]

Removing both the cat and center muffler lowers the cabin heat substantially. Pat

[coadyg65]

What would be the effect of just removing the cat from the can and rewelding it closed?

Regards
Garry

[Tombie]

Lots of work (and it’s huge) and a big, non-linear (unless you weld in a pipe) box messing up flow.

Trying to be stealth will be a waste of time..just fit the heat shield back on the top and you’ll be fine.

[karlz]

Anyone in Melb with a decat, I would like to experience it before I remove it.
My 2.2 runs out of warranty in August.

btw. Removed the centre muffler last week. Can confirm there is no noise difference, but cant detect any performance advantages either.
I have a BAS remap city tune 140 bhp.

[Tombie]

You won’t see a gain - that Cat is holding it all up [emoji41]

[martnH]

The biggest downside to remove the CAT will be no more heated floor in the winter

I think I might actually miss this....

[Eddie]

Will removing the cat help the engine run cooler as my air con cuts in and out when working hard on a long run.
cheers Eddie

[martnH]

Will removing the cat help the engine run cooler as my air con cuts in and out when working hard on a long run.
cheers EddieNo it won't....
My air con will do the same on a hot day. I think it's simply our of cooling capacity.
May need a bigger condenser

[Tombie]

Ours doesn’t cut out even on 44c days.
We did find having it just slightly off the coldest setting helps.
Seems it frosts up a bit so cuts out to defrost if set too cold.

[Eddie]

Ours doesn’t cut out even on 44c days.
We did find having it just slightly off the coldest setting helps.
Seems it frosts up a bit so cuts out to defrost if set too cold.

Thanks for that info I will try that on the next big run I do.
cheers Eddie

[Witchdoctor]

Looks like ill have to do the job myself, called a number of shops & no one will do the removal.Bugger

[DazzaTD5]

Daz,

Have a look at my FaceBook Page: FBD Modifications. Could have done you a very effective ceramic coating on your new exhaust and could have rebuilt your turbo much better and cheaper than buying a new one. Just saying.....

Yep, had a look...
*The turbo on the 2.2 had blown itself to the ****ter and was told by an ex Ford mechanic that he had seen a few Transits do this.
*How does the ceramic coating compare in the real world to the heat wrapping?
*Often mods like this are done on the fly, as in "oh I have a clever thought" etc etc and I dont have much time to send out, wait, get it back etc

*I saw your 300tdi turbo recon, looks good
*I am big on supporting local businesses, just like me
*Will drop off the old turbo off the 2.2 and see if anything can be done with it

Regards
Daz

[DazzaTD5]

Had a 2.2 come in just after (last job before xmas) the one that was decat'd, I didnt really notice the difference until I realised the 2.2 had a remap...
So basically the performance of doing a decat was as good as doing a remap. Visually with the heat shield back on the engine bay looks stock and it didnt sound any different.

As for anyone having a crack and saying how illegal it is to decat a vehicle....
*So is doing a remap on a road going vehicle.
*So is doing a EGR delete / remap on a road going vehicle.

*As for an exhaust centre refusing to do the job, well maybe it shows they have more ethics than a company that supplies / does remaps.
*Give an owner of a Discovery 4 a price to replace their faulty EGR at X dollars with the potential for it to fault again later or to do a remap and delete EGR and they will generally take the later option.

Regards
Daz

[Marty90]

Maybe the one that had the decat also had a remap. I had a remap done soon after I bought it and again when I got the decat and gotta say the difference wasn't as great as I'd hoped.

[Patrol 32]

Daz,

Ceramic coating has been the best kept secret in the Motorsports for many years, at least since 1995 here in WA.

Wrapping is an ancient idea and actually damages the metals from which your components are made, by trapping the heat close to the pipes and turbo it weakens the material and causes early failure.

Ceramic coating conversely, stops much of the heat from getting into the metal, be it steel or iron in your pipes, manifolds and turbo turbine,
or the aluminium of the turbo compressor housing.

I have done two personal vehicles and they both showed marked improvement in turbo spool up and vehicle acceleration,
plus a dramatic reduction of under bonnet heat. I have measured the differences on a standard road run from Midland to Northam and back,
plus I have dyno'd the vehicle with various incremental changes. I will post these results on my FBD Modifications Face Book page.

And yes, Grant can rebuild your turbo, better than new, and CIC will ceramic coat both halves of the turbo. Give it a go,
you won't be disappointed.

Would you like me to manage the rebuild for you? The price to you will be the same or less.

Michael Sheil
FBD Modifications


Yep, had a look...
*The turbo on the 2.2 had blown itself to the ****ter and was told by an ex Ford mechanic that he had seen a few Transits do this.
*How does the ceramic coating compare in the real world to the heat wrapping?
*Often mods like this are done on the fly, as in "oh I have a clever thought" etc etc and I dont have much time to send out, wait, get it back etc

*I saw your 300tdi turbo recon, looks good
*I am big on supporting local businesses, just like me
*Will drop off the old turbo off the 2.2 and see if anything can be done with it

Regards
Daz

[debruiser]

I'm keen to do a decat but living away from home I really need a bolt on solution that I can do on a Sunday. If someone finds a pipe for a reasonable price please share! Or if someone around ipswich is doing this could you get a 2nd pipe made for me?

[martnH]

I'm keen to do a decat but living away from home I really need a bolt on solution that I can do on a Sunday. If someone finds a pipe for a reasonable price please share! Or if someone around ipswich is doing this could you get a 2nd pipe made for me?David performance has it
It's two piece bolt on decat pipe

I am still thinking about this.....Really want to do the decat but I do not want lung cancer...

The smell of the exhauat when the car is cold is obnoxious.... Already

[Tombie]

Benzine is more likely to help you on your lung cancer journey....

[dazzler]

I reserve my judgement as I watch the thread with interest.

Real world experience:

Had Jock De-Cated at DP along with a TF straight through pipe. I was happy with performance.

Then Came Bessie, which I think was stock when I acquired it from a stealrship, It had "ROB DOG" (anyone here know him?) stamped on the back window.
I have gone through Bessie front to back and sorted a few issues(leave that for a chat over a fire one trip) front to back and I love the way she drives now.

Now Bessie still has a CAT + BAS 170 + BAS IC with hose + TF straight through pipe and I think the performance is better. I think It might be due to the larger Nugett Stuff intake solution which the car loves. So I am not sure a DE-CAT is worth casing in my case not to mention the smell with the CAT removed.

Regards
pd

[DazzaTD5]

As far as health or the environment, its as bad as....

*EGR delete through either physical deletion or a remap.
*Any remap thats going to produce more power.
*DPF deletes.
*VW and how many thousands of cars that failed to meet emissions, that they have no hope of ever fixing them all.
*The thousands of very old trucks on the road in Australia due to our poor emissions regulations.
*Dare I even mention our power generation industry and coal export.

When "Australia" takes emissions and our health seriously and uses electric or hybrid trucks for inner city and wharf to distribution centre deliveries and stops exporting coal we should then all do our bit for what would be a true green country.

Regards
Daz

[uninformed]

As long as the sun still rises and sets, there will be those on the internet that just love to point out the no-no's people are doing. All in the name of protecting their forum....

its a technincal forum, lets talk technical. Anything we do to our vehicles has to be done on our own shoulders.

Remember, ignorance of the law is no excuse.

[Tombie]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2018/01/779.jpg

[Toxic_Avenger]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2018/01/779.jpg

Man, that's deep.
*tokes on the reefer*
Real deep, man.

[debruiser]

David performance has it
It's two piece bolt on decat pipe

I am still thinking about this.....Really want to do the decat but I do not want lung cancer...

The smell of the exhauat when the car is cold is obnoxious.... Already

Davis performance ? I can't find it on their site, do I need to call them?

[dazzler]

Mine fouled with front drive shaft as I found going down the staircase, I also had to fashion a bracket for the heat shield otherwise it worked ok. D90 also has one of these from memory.

pd

[Witchdoctor]

Where can I purchase a de cat pipe for a 2.2 Puma?

Im looking to get one & have it ceramic coated inside & out before fitting.

Chers
Dave

[dazzler]

Where can I purchase a de cat pipe for a 2.2 Puma?

Im looking to get one & have it ceramic coated inside & out before fitting.

Chers
Dave


Try Davis Performance Annangrove Sydney

[martnH]

Davis performance ? I can't find it on their site, do I need to call them?Yeah give him a call

[martnH]

I just try to weight the options, to estimate the risk benefits ratio of decat

Everybody has one threshold. After all it is the driver and passengers who are gonna breathe in those toxic fumes. *Nothing to do with captain planet....*

[martnH]

And that's why I choose the remap plus egr closure and still sceptical about the decat

I think my willingness to decat is around 15 horsepower and 5 degrees cooler in the engine bay and less than $200

[Tombie]

The driver and passenger should never get the fumes...
The exhaust needs to exit behind all openings and beyond the body work.

So apart from the mornings where it smells a little more for about 30 seconds on start up there shouldn’t be anything noticeable in day to day running.

We certainly can not notice it.

What I can notice - the floor doesn’t try to cook us anymore, the cab is more comfortable in warm weather...

And ask anyone who has driven ‘Ike’ - goes like a scalded cat with a firecracker up it’s arse...

[Tombie]

Oh yeah - and the Decat, new pipe and box, and exhaust tip alteration (to stop melting mud flaps on a 90) was $400 even.. [emoji6]

[martnH]

Oh yeah - and the Decat, new pipe and box, and exhaust tip alteration (to stop melting mud flaps on a 90) was $400 even.. [emoji6]Thanks Tombie

So you do feel power gain from the decat.

The heated floor....Yes it is very annoying now but it will be a lovely "feature" in the winter....Positive thinking hehe

Regarding the fumes, I guess it is not a problem if the car is moving. but when stationary and during initial startup, you do breathe in a bit unconsciously.
And that's the main reason truck drivers has a high rate of lung cancer and bladder cancer and same goes for miners, heavy equipment operators etc....

If anyone with a puma defender can produce a dyno showing quantitatively the power gain...That would be great

[martnH]

So cut this little bracket and the cat is free at last....https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2018/01/851.jpg

[tact]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2018/01/779.jpg

And that meme is also incorrect. Let me fix it - "Sun neither rises nor sets, its only the earth rotates around its axis

[Witchdoctor]

All you guys that have removed their cats would one have one complete that I can get hold of?

I have a local race car exhaust builder that is happy to do the job for me but as I want it ceramic coated. Mine needs to be removed complete, new pipe work done, old setup re installed while the new one is sent away to be coated. One week later remove old & fit new pipework. If I got hold of the factory cat & pipe work he could build to match. This would save me loads of coin & time.

Cheers
Dave

[Tombie]

Sorry. Have to cut to remove.

[Witchdoctor]

Cutting the bracket is no issue, just need the correct shape to build new pipework.

[Tombie]

I mean 2 cuts. The bracket and the pipe below the Cat...

[ninetubes]

Last year I removed and reinstalled (exhaust bloke refused to touch it) without any cutting.
Today I just had the decat done and am pretty pleased. Noticeably pulls harder and comes on boost sooner.
Aaaaand the handbrake is cooler than the other side of the metaphorical pillow

[DazzaTD5]

IMHO .... and nothing more than that....

I saw one comment about not wanting toxic fumes etc etc being sucked in by driver / passenger BUT was perfectly ok with a EGR remap done.
*As already noted, regardless of exhaust set up, its not ment to be leaking so it fills the cabin.
*Your EGR delete (which is illegal)..... what sort of emissions do you think your pumping out the back? it aint smelling of roses.
*I mean really, get a grip, you could put 32" tyres and do a 2" lift and it would be illegal.

On a technical note....
*A Defender 2.2 I drove recently (that gets used for "offroad use only") had a cat delete, a remap and a big inter cooler.... its about as impressive as a 2.2 diesel can get with bolt ons, pulled hard and clean through its rev range and didnt feel like it ran out of puff.

Regards
Daz

[Beery]

I wonder if there should be an allowance for primary producers to legally remove cats & DPF's to mitigate the risk of starting bush/grassfires.
I would have thought an insurance company would be in favour of that.

[martnH]

IMHO .... and nothing more than that....

I saw one comment about not wanting toxic fumes etc etc being sucked in by driver / passenger BUT was perfectly ok with a EGR remap done.
*As already noted, regardless of exhaust set up, its not ment to be leaking so it fills the cabin.
*Your EGR delete (which is illegal)..... what sort of emissions do you think your pumping out the back? it aint smelling of roses.
*I mean really, get a grip, you could put 32" tyres and do a 2" lift and it would be illegal.

On a technical note....
*A Defender 2.2 I drove recently (that gets used for "offroad use only") had a cat delete, a remap and a big inter cooler.... its about as impressive as a 2.2 diesel can get with bolt ons, pulled hard and clean through its rev range and didnt feel like it ran out of puff.

Regards
DazI agrees with everything you said.
But it has nothing to do with my previous comment. We are talking about different things.

What is clear is decat will have an adverse effect on health of driver, passengers and other road users (and we all agreed

What is unclear is what the benefit of decat will be in terms of horsepower and torque.

And I can not make a informed decision knowing onky the risk but not the benefit quantitatively. I can not estimate the risk benefit ratio for decat.

The cost is not just money but also health cost. I paid money and my health for the remap and egr shut-off because I was shown the power gain quantitatively on a dyno chart and I decide the risk benefit is in favour of the remap

It also my humble opinion and nothing more.

[DazzaTD5]

Again this is just me thinking out load and flapping my gums, nothing more...

People's health and or the environmental cost of doing mods, lets face it is the unspoken white elephant in the room. I dont believe you can bring up health as a con in a pro vs con decision if you do a particular mod or not. If so you are saying well if I get a X% gain in power, economy or other mechanical benefit I'm happy to sacrifice people's health or the environment in the process. I do believe that's how VW think when doing a pro vs con on profit and peoples health lost out (personal opinion only, I have no proven fact VW are scumbags).

Put simply, if you are a care bear enough to consider peoples health and or the environment, we wouldnt:
*Do EGR blanking or deleting.
*Do remaps for performance gains.
*Do cat, DPF or muffler deletes.
*Drive a diesel in any form.

From where I sit its all irrelevant while we have mid 80s, 90s **** heap trucks belching out huge amounts of noxious fumes. Australia cant, unlike other supposedly "developed" countries palm off trucks that no longer meet emissions to third world countries, we are stuck with them.

Regards
Daz

[uninformed]

Do you eat sugar?

[Tombie]

Risk Benefit ratio? For a decat? Wow!!!

Your health was worth the EGR in a risk Benefit analysis?

Epic fail....

For the record, the emissions at the site I work on, of dust and dirt, sulphurs etc is more in a month than 50 years of Tdci exhaust!

[martnH]

Australian government is willing to pay $60k for one healthy life year. This is decided by pharmaceutical benefit advisory committee (PBAC

The harm from the decat (if enough data) can be converted into quality adjusted life year forgone (due to ling caner/bladder cancer/COPD)and then converted into monetary value. That's if you choose money as the comparison medium. In this case, say decat on average cause x healthy life year so the health cost for decat would be X *$60K

Then you estimate the money you willing to pay for the power gain from the decat. Say decat gives you 40 hours power and you are willing to pay $20k for 40 8ncremental horsepower on top of the BAS 170 tune.

And you compare these two number so you can make an informed decision instead of gutfeeling or whatever I don't give a ****....

Everybody thinks this way. Just like tombie you breathe in those fumes but you are compensates with money where the risk/benefit ratio of your job roughly match your self-evaluated, magic number

Well I am trained to think this way anway. There are known knowns and known unknowns. But there are also unknown unknowns.
I don't want to be recuited years later in a retrospective study of the health effect from Decat.

Like I said, we are talking about different things or the same thing where you sign minimal value to health effects while I act like a pussies.

Just for a laughter
Cheers

[martnH]

Actually......I never meant to criticize the decat. Sorry if you feel this way.

I just want to know quantitatively what is the power gain. I am not going to breathe in extra toxic fumes (on top of the remap and egr shut-off) plus the risk of getting caught (albeit very unlikely) for less than 15 horsepower gain plus an improvement in fuel economy of $50 per year

[martnH]

Asumming two things the decat produce the same amount of health harms as the remap plus egr-shutoff. And secondly the decat can not produce the same amount of power gain (on top of the 170 bas remap

We have three strategies here (ignore the strategy of decat without remap for now)
A stock engine no mods
B 170bas remap
C 170 bas remap plus decat

We can calculate a series of incremental power gain-harms ratio (ICPH)
The ICPH of remap =additional power gain from remap (power gain of A - power gain of B) /additional harms from remap

This number is higher than my threshold ICPH so I am I favour of remap

The ICPH of remap plus decat is less than that of the remap because the harm is doubled while the power gain is not doubled (under our assumptions). And this ICPH of remap plus decat is lower than my threshold . So I don't want a Decat over remap because the decat can not provide a favorable power gain to harms ratio.

So I will seek another options for power gain such as even bigger intercooler or hi flow cat or another engine

This is what I have been talking about.....And nothing more....
I don't care about the environment at all just like you

[Toxic_Avenger]

OT
Martn... your PM's are full FYI.

[karlz]

The ICPH of remap =additional power gain from remap (power gain of A - power gain of B) /additional harms from remap


minus (Fx * ICPH)

where Fx = time difference between point A and Point B due to more hp and time holding breath

[Tombie]

Actually......I never meant to criticize the decat. Sorry if you feel this way.

I just want to know quantitatively what is the power gain. I am not going to breathe in extra toxic fumes (on top of the remap and egr shut-off) plus the risk of getting caught (albeit very unlikely) for less than 15 horsepower gain plus an improvement in fuel economy of $50 per year

There is no quantified power gain from a decat.

It’s benefits are:

Quicker turbo spool up
Reduced heat in engine bay and radiated to the cabin of the vehicle.

So no more power (generally) but quicker pick up of the available power. And a lowered cabin temperature around your feet.

And I will repeat. You and your passengers won’t breathe in more anything... it exhausts behind you.
So if the vehicle in front / beside of you has a decat, failed cat, tune, EGR closure etc - that is when you’re breathing in higher emissions.

[DazzaTD5]

Personally I'd rather not **** on the environment or peoples health. BUT all that aside...


My focus is remap vs cat delete.
*I've driven both a 2.4 and 2.2 decat.
*I've also drive a 2.2 remap and decat.

Personally I find the decat on a 2.2 in stock form performs better than most remaps I have driven, so I see one as an expensive somewhat bull**** item that get pushed by so many remap places out there.
*The decat also I find makes the engine run smoother and quieter.
*The remap places are always going to sprout their wares as a better alternative.

Regards
Daz

[Tombie]

Agree in part Daz.

The decat allows what you have to come on quicker and smoother.

The Biography tune improves low speed shunting and has a definite increase throughout especially when loaded.

The EGR closure is nothing but an engine cleanliness fix.

[martnH]

OT
Martn... your PM's are full FYI.Just clear the inbox
Pm (the dyno chart?!)

[martnH]

Agree in part Daz.

The decat allows what you have to come on quicker and smoother.

The Biography tune improves low speed shunting and has a definite increase throughout especially when loaded.

The EGR closure is nothing but an engine cleanliness fix.My garage is deep and doesn't have good ventilation. That would be a problem for me.

Also Check out the latest news
VW, Mercedes-Benz, and BMW used monkeys to test exhausts of their cars

So usually first stage is retrospective study (or observational study). So you get hold of a bunch of patients with lung cancer and bladder caner etc..And you look at their exposure to thing of intest (diesel exhaust on our case
And then you work out how strong correlation is.
And if strong, this exposure is flagged

And second stage is prospective study so you do the experiment in lab environment under control

I just wonder what would be the result of the reported experiments. The results were never published....They must have know something

[debruiser]

To be honest I'm a little shocked by the dirrational of the thread. We drive 4x4s..... if you really cared about the environment you'd crush ur 4x4 and get the train or walk or ride a bike.

Decats - im going to order one as soon as they become available at Davis performance. 😊 looking forward to more bolt on's 😊

[PAT303]

Personally I'd rather not **** on the environment or peoples health. BUT all that aside...


My focus is remap vs cat delete.
*I've driven both a 2.4 and 2.2 decat.
*I've also drive a 2.2 remap and decat.

Personally I find the decat on a 2.2 in stock form performs better than most remaps I have driven, so I see one as an expensive somewhat bull**** item that get pushed by so many remap places out there.
*The decat also I find makes the engine run smoother and quieter.
*The remap places are always going to sprout their wares as a better alternative.

Regards
Daz

I've found the performance gain by my decat and EGR closed is good enough for me,not going to bother with a map. Pat

[martnH]

I just have a second thought.
I think the cw experiment is probably only looking g at vascular events rather than cancers....
I vaguely remember I have read a few trials looking into the correlation between diesel exhaust and impaired vascular function

[martnH]

I think I will also go for a Decat.
Afterall I will only breathe in probably 5% of the exhaust

[DiscoMick]

I wonder if there should be an allowance for primary producers to legally remove cats & DPF's to mitigate the risk of starting bush/grassfires.
I would have thought an insurance company would be in favour of that.
If it's illegal the companies can't knowingly insure it. If the company finds out its illegal they can reject a claim.

[DiscoMick]

Diesel exhaust emissions are the number two cancer-causing agent in Australia (skin cancer is number one). About 1.2 million Aussies are exposed each year.
So anything we do to make our exhaust emissions dirtier is basically saying we don't care if we harm many people as long as we get a bit more vroom vroom under the right foot.

Diesel - Cancer Council Australia (https://www.cancer.org.au/preventing-cancer/workplace-cancer/diesel.html)

[Tombie]

To be honest I'm a little shocked by the dirrational of the thread.

Yeah! I agree. Either do the decat or don’t...

People *think* they’re being intelligent by over-analysing things.Reality is they’re working at a justification to match their moral sentiment.

If your thoughts on removing an emissions device conflict with your morals then look at other alternatives.

Example:
Lagging the Cat and Pipes with thermal wrap will reduce engine bay and floor temperatures whilst keeping the systems in place.

[Beery]

If it's illegal the companies can't knowingly insure it. If the company finds out its illegal they can reject a claim.
By 'allowance' I'm implying it be made law.

[DiscoMick]

Can't happen.

[Toxic_Avenger]

Y
People *think* they’re being intelligent by over-analysing things.Reality is they’re working at a justification to match their moral sentiment.


As a scientist and a business person, what he says is fact. There is a whole field of medical professionals who study this very stuff, and find some very interesting things. The human model (physiologically and psychologiacally) is interesting. Whether you are weighing up a purchase of a bottle of milk, a coffee or a de-cat pipe, the risk / return or Cost-benefit comes into it- whether you know it or not. ie calculating the heck out of the variables, or thinking 'aww gee, I really can't afford to spend this, given what I get back for my money'. Likewise, you could spend your days sucking the soot of an old 8V-71 2 stroke diesel and die of old age, when another person may die after a week of exposure. Humans are funny creatures.
As for VW working on monkeys, we haven't had a much better animal model since the days of Dr Joseph Mengele...


I should stop now... if I had a dollar for each time someone called me a boring nerd, I'd have an average daily income of $5.73, with a standard deviation of $1.26.

[Tombie]

I’m not saying that. I’m saying make the choice. Do it or don’t. If a person can justify it in their head then do so...

As for the human model... let’s face it, we’re all a bunch of fruitcakes! [emoji56]

[SeanMurr123]

As a scientist and a business person, what he says is fact. There is a whole field of medical professionals who study this very stuff, and find some very interesting things. The human model (physiologically and psychologiacally) is interesting. Whether you are weighing up a purchase of a bottle of milk, a coffee or a de-cat pipe, the risk / return or Cost-benefit comes into it- whether you know it or not. ie calculating the heck out of the variables, or thinking 'aww gee, I really can't afford to spend this, given what I get back for my money'. Likewise, you could spend your days sucking the soot of an old 8V-71 2 stroke diesel and die of old age, when another person may die after a week of exposure. Humans are funny creatures.
As for VW working on monkeys, we haven't had a much better animal model since the days of Dr Joseph Mengele...


I should stop now... if I had a dollar for each time someone called me a boring nerd, I'd have an average daily income of $5.73, with a standard deviation of $1.26.

My issue with the last 6 pages of this thread is that he's doing all these napkin analyses with assumptions.
Unless he has put together a round table of engineers from Ford and Landrover and medical and environmental experts specializing in diesel emissions, how can he do the cost benefit analysis? Does he know exactly what type of cat it is and what exactly it is doing? Is it there for environmental reasons or health reasons? Or is it just bureaucracy reasons because it is a grey area of science and easier just to make it a blanket rule? More importantly, he has modified his engine by re-mapping and removing the egr function so is the cat even functioning correctly anymore anyway? And as others have mentioned the people mostly affected by this decision are the people driving behind him and I didn't see the selfishness part considered in the equation. It's like the whole passive smoking debate all over again.

I'd like to get back on topic. So is there anywhere in Sydney I can buy a readymade pipe off the shelf so I can fit it myself on a weekend? I don't care as much about other people or pandas as I do about not having hot legs in summer anymore. No maths needed for me.

[Toxic_Avenger]

This discussion- irrespective of how informed or otherwise, all helps to add to the body of knowledge.
Until someone fronts up with back to back dyno graphs, and temp logs, heck even chuck some exhaust backpressure graphs in there, then you uneducated guess is as good as anyone elses. If you disagree- add to the data and put some cold hard figures out there. Go on, be a hero. For science.

IMO, if it weren't for people shootin' the breeze and throwing ideas and thoughts out there, there'd be no innovation in the world.

[dazzler]

This discussion- irrespective of how informed or otherwise, all helps to add to the body of knowledge.
Until someone fronts up with back to back dyno graphs, and temp logs, heck even chuck some exhaust backpressure graphs in there, then you uneducated guess is as good as anyone elses. If you disagree- add to the data and put some cold hard figures out there. Go on, be a hero. For science.

IMO, if it weren't for people shootin' the breeze and throwing ideas and thoughts out there, there'd be no innovation in the world.

kinda like the debate here, but would like some conclusive evidence either way. ...throw in nuggett's sealed airbox kit into the test whilst at it.

[Tombie]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2018/01/1085.jpg

Perfectly sums up a Defender hey [emoji41][emoji48]

[rick130]

As for the human model... let’s face it, we’re all a bunch of fruitcakes! [emoji56]

As a psychologist said to me, and she repeated it often.
"we're all dickheads. The day you realise this, that you're not someone 'special' is the day you can start to get some real understanding about yourself and others"
I love psychology. :)

[rick130]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2018/01/1085.jpg

Perfectly sums up a Defender hey [emoji41][emoji48]Well, as I explained to a mate when a GTR pulled up beside me in the Deefer.
"Turbocharged, injected, all wheel drive, four spot calipers, slotted and vented discs, hey, I'm driving a GTR equivalent!!" [emoji23]

[ninetubes]

as a recent de-cat recipient, i've graphed the performance differential here:


135726

[Toxic_Avenger]

Much zoom.
Very wow.

[ninetubes]

jokes aside, i am actually curious as to what my 90 is pushing out. Obviously it's too late to do a before and after on my vehicle.

But, if i stump up to take it for a ride on the dyno (std map and 170 for interests sake), can someone provide a standard (with cat) 2.2 graph?

I know it won't be an ideal comparison but surely it'll be indicative ?

[Toxic_Avenger]

jokes aside, i am actually curious as to what my 90 is pushing out. Obviously it's too late to do a before and after on my vehicle.

But, if i stump up to take it for a ride on the dyno (std map and 170 for interests sake), can someone provide a standard (with cat) 2.2 graph?

I know it won't be an ideal comparison but surely it'll be indicative ?

You can see variations between dynos. Different programs that they use to calculate HP, correction factors etc.
Then atmospheric pressure, ambient temp, etc etc etc can come into play. Heck, even oil weight, engine machining tolerances would be throwing out inter-car results.
I think you'd find the variable you wish to measure will be lost amongst all the other factors at play.
But throw some data out there, I'd love to see it. A decent sample size of vehicles would give extra resolution to the conundrum.

[donh54]

.......
As for the human model... let’s face it, we’re all a bunch of fruitcakes! [emoji56]

Yeah, but some have more nuts than others!

[martnH]

My wife deny my proposal of a decat,saying it would be putting lipstick on a pig.

So alternatively I installed a cold air intake

I am telling ya this cold air intake (no longer a snorkel) gives her at least 5 more horsepower, turbo spools up faster and also reduce egt.....https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2018/02/6.jpg

[Tombie]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2018/02/12.jpg

[gvwow]

will water get more of a chance to get in or is there
More to this.. than i can see,,,

[martnH]

will water get more of a chance to get in or is there
More to this.. than i can see,,,When I go off-road I shall connect the snorkel.....

The cold air intake is just for city/highway driving

[martnH]

So which one is better?
Decat vs. cold air intake

It is well documented that a snorkel will rob engine performance

I was thinking of getting a three way valve...You know with a lever.
Going off-road, air via snorkel
Going highway, air via cold air intake.

Cat stay alive!

Cheers

[1nando]

So which one is better?
Decat vs. cold air intake

It is well documented that a snorkel will rob engine performance

I was thinking of getting a three way valve...You know with a lever.
Going off-road, air via snorkel
Going highway, air via cold air intake.

Cat stay alive!

CheersMate i wrote up a egt thread a long time ago. Look it up and it'll answer some of your questions.
In a nut shell; puma exhaust is restrictive, lower egts with it free flowing and better performance.

[Toxic_Avenger]

I recently had my bum dyno calibrated after I maxxed out the skid meter following a particularly hefty meal of bean quesadillas and tequila.
If you are up my way, maybe I can give you an accurate measurement of actual gainz.

[Tombie]

Cold air intake or snorkel... bwahahaha

Try - Short snorkel / long snorkel..

The external intake regardless of stock, short or full length is by the very definition a “Cold air intake”.

[Tombie]

I recently had my bum dyno calibrated after I maxxed out the skid meter following a particularly hefty meal of bean quesadillas and tequila.
If you are up my way, maybe I can give you an accurate measurement of actual gainz.

All about the gainz bro! [emoji48]

[Tombie]

On a scale of 1 to 10...

8 being the best...

I give that modification a C...

[1nando]

With a free flowing exhaust the power comes on a tad earlier and boost holds steady at 22 psi under full throttle, there is no boost fluctuation at all. Torque band is increased over the rev range and there isnt any need to rev the thing harder than 3000rpm as at this point the engine really isnt making any more power.
The snorkel isnt a power upgrade but rather peace of mind as you can do water crossings and cause it sits higher less dust to be sucked in.
The biggest power mod is a remap and to compliment it for the purpose pf being reliable i recomend a intercooler. If you read my EGT thread there is a bunch of actual data in there to back up what im saying. Think of it as me spending a sht load of money on R and D that you can benefit from.

[DiscoMick]

So which one is better?
Decat vs. cold air intake

It is well documented that a snorkel will rob engine performance

I was thinking of getting a three way valve...You know with a lever.
Going off-road, air via snorkel
Going highway, air via cold air intake.

Cat stay alive!

Cheers
That's interesting. I have heard it argued that a snorkel improves cold air intake. No idea if that's true or not.

[martnH]

What I did is to shorten the snorkel and I find this resulted in noticeable power gain , turbo spools up faster and lower egt.

In other words, when I first installed the snorkel, the snorkel rob the engine a few horsepower and now by partially remove the snorkel and improve the ease of air going into the motor, I regain that lost performance.

So i throw out the argument that maybe the removal of long snorkel can achiece better engine performance gain compared to killing the cat, given that puma is a big cat afterall.

Killing cat will upset the puma


Jokes aside, Peter at BAS have done some experiments with dyno graphs showing a snorkel will reduce horsepower. So what I have done here is really the best of both worlds, when off-road I connect the snorkel for engine protection, while on-road, I remove the snorkel for better engine performance

[Tombie]

Those snorkels are the worst for flow out of all snorkels on the Defenders.
The BAS power tests were done tuned.

Did you test connected and disconnected at full operating temperature in the same area during the same weather conditions?[emoji12]

And you still haven’t solved the Issues the Cat removal is done for....
Cooler floor, cooler handbrake and quicker spool...

[manic]

So what I have done here is really the best of both worlds, when off-road I connect the snorkel for engine protection, while on-road, I remove the snorkel for better engine performance

True but you could do better. If you can, go out of the wing top opening and put the factory grill back on the side opening to let air flow out of the engine bay. Then when wading, run a hose from wing top outlet to snorkel extension.

Snorkels that mount to the side intake do restrict air flow, even the factory attachment that fits to the side vent is a bit rubbish. That said only worth looking at if your tuning up.

Pic attached gives you the ideahttps://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2018/02/21.jpg

[Simeon]

Any intake can be ‘tuned’ by lengthening or shortening the induction path but there are always limits. Pro’s include cool (denser) air, the ‘tuning effect’, the ‘ram’ effect and relatively reduced dust but cons are the potentially reduced airflow due to static air and back pressure within a long, thin snorkel. This will vary greatly depending upon the individual engine. Unfortunately the designed length may not suit all of these attributes so without some kind of objective testing you will never know.

[martnH]

Those snorkels are the worst for flow out of all snorkels on the Defenders.
The BAS power tests were done tuned.

Did you test connected and disconnected at full operating temperature in the same area during the same weather conditions?[emoji12]

And you still haven’t solved the Issues the Cat removal is done for....
Cooler floor, cooler handbrake and quicker spool...I have quicker spool too by removing the snorkel tube

With regards to the hot floor and hot handbrake...
I will argue these are very similar to health raditiaon physiotherapy.

The heat transmitted via the handbrake will increase blood circulation of driver, particularly the lower limbs which promotes healing and relaxing of muscles.This is very beneficial for long distance driving. (Thanks caveat is you will need to hydrate and if you have varicose veins, heat will worsen this condition

Also quote"
-Heat can improve the flexibility of tendons and ligaments
-Heat will reduce muscle spasms
-Heat may alleviate pain (heat may induce the release of endorphins, powerful opiate-like chemicals which block pain transmission.)
Heat will elevate blood flow (heat tends to relax the walls of blood vessels)
Heat will boost metabolism.Heat can help when stretching muscles and increasing overall flexibility."

[martnH]

I can't edit...I meant to say
Heat physiotherapy

[ninetubes]

getting a bit off topic here, but i believe JLRs narrow hodge-podge intake ducting would render any "ram-air" type effect pretty redundant. At best, removing a snorkel is surely just going back to factory-spec, so not really a "gain" by definition

[dazzler]

getting a bit off topic here, but i believe JLRs narrow hodge-podge intake ducting would render any "ram-air" type effect pretty redundant. At best, removing a snorkel is surely just going back to factory-spec, so not really a "gain" by definition

I have replaced JLR's intake ducting system with nugget ducting and I am happy with from a performance point of view. I plan to wrap the exhaust like i did with my old truck and use heat shield to workaround the cabin heat issue. Personally DE-CAT is off the menu for me.

Consider nugget ducting upgrade first up, before hacking into the CAT IMHO.

pd

[tact]

I have replaced JLR's intake ducting system with nugget ducting and I am happy with from a performance point of view. I plan to wrap the exhaust like i did with my old truck and use heat shield to workaround the cabin heat issue. Personally DE-CAT is off the menu for me.

Consider nugget ducting upgrade first up, before hacking into the CAT IMHO.

pd

Absolutely agree that fixing the stock air intake ducting to open up the airway and let the engine breathe better ought to be a priority. I remember back when I did the BAS 170hp tune the advice from Pete Bell was, at the least, make some mods to the airbox itself to allow freer breathing.

[Homestar]

Well, as I explained to a mate when a GTR pulled up beside me in the Deefer.
"Turbocharged, injected, all wheel drive, four spot calipers, slotted and vented discs, hey, I'm driving a GTR equivalent!!" [emoji23]

I tell people I have a V8, 2 door convertible - and then roll up in my 101. [emoji4]

[DazzaTD5]

As already mentioned a snorkel will be worse for performance.

Worst thing for an engine is turbulent air, an engine wants passive dense air, of course that is all a bit redundant with a turbo engine.

Regards
Daz

[DazzaTD5]

The Nugget Stuff intake is an awesome bit of gear as it seals and water proofs the intake from the snorkel.

But its a different thing, its not a performance mod.

Regards
Daz

[tact]

The Nugget Stuff intake is an awesome bit of gear as it seals and water proofs the intake from the snorkel.

But its a different thing, its not a performance mod.

Regards
Daz

Not sure of that myself - Given the weird narrow odd shaped stock ducting. A good, unobstructed, near straight bit of 90mm silicone hose may well encourage a few more neddies to pull harder.

[dazzler]

Not sure of that myself - Given the weird narrow odd shaped stock ducting. A good, unobstructed, near straight bit of 90mm silicone hose may well encourage a few more neddies to pull harder.


Neddies haha!!

I was shocked when I pulled the stock ducting, compare that with the straight piping it has to help the 170 odd(give or take) fine BAS bred ponies I reckon. I did also remove(widen) the internal section off the air box past the dust separator for good measure.

For full disclosure I do not receive any kickback from Nugget (only emails talking about new goodies).

[PAT303]

I swear by my Hiclone,it gives me 30% more power with a 40% reduction in consumption. Pat

[Tombie]

I swear by my Hiclone,it gives me 30% more power with a 40% reduction in consumption. Pat

Wait until your polariser arrives, combined with rare earth fuel magnets it’s unbeatable.

[tact]

[...] I did also remove(widen) the internal section off the air box past the dust separator for good measure.

I did the same mod inside the air box, and removed that little propellery dust separator thing as well.

[rick130]

Tdi's and TD5's had a ridiculously restrictive intake duct between the inlet grilleon the guard or Snorkel and respective air cleaners. It stepped down to 50mm at the water dump, and a Safari snorkel was only about 50mm ID at the point it met the intake duct.

On my old Tdi I replaced the entire intake duct with with 75-80mm industrial hose and cut the end off the snorkel at a point it was 75+mm OD.
The Land Rover setup really offended me! [biggrin]

[DazzaTD5]

I swear by my Hiclone,it gives me 30% more power with a 40% reduction in consumption. Pat


tut tut tut ..... and I thought I was a bit of a **** stirrer [tonguewink]

Regards
Daz

[1nando]

I swear by my Hiclone,it gives me 30% more power with a 40% reduction in consumption. PatSo thats what nissan forgot to put on the y62 patrol????? 🤣🤣

Seriously though, i "decatted" the neighbours cat after it tried to eat my parrot. Since then my parrot breathes easier and isnt as stressed! [emoji48]

[DiscoMick]

I swear by my Hiclone,it gives me 30% more power with a 40% reduction in consumption. Pat
Wanna buy a flux capacitor?
They are for sale on eBay.

[dazzler]

I swear by my Hiclone, it gives me 30% more power with a 40% reduction in consumption. Pat

How about a custom ASIC or a MGU-H (should work even better with a DE-CATTED PUMA). [bigwhistle]

[martnH]

Today I discovered the defender feels more zoom if wearing thin-sole shoes

[PAT303]

So thats what nissan forgot to put on the y62 patrol????? 🤣🤣

Seriously though, i "decatted" the neighbours cat after it tried to eat my parrot. Since then my parrot breathes easier and isnt as stressed! [emoji48]

Thanks mate,you just made me **** myself laughing. Pat

[DiscoMick]

Today I discovered the defender feels more zoom if wearing thin-sole shoes
It's not a Mazda, so how can it zoom?

[Toxic_Avenger]

It's not a Mazda, so how can it zoom?

Guys, pay attention please.
We already established this in Post 116 of this thread (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/257431-2-2-tdci-puma-cat-delete-post2769034.html#post2769034).

[rick130]

Thanks mate,you just made me **** myself laughing. Pat

I hope you were wearing your pull ups Pat ! [bigwhistle]


[biggrin]

[karlz]

please stop.

Thread is about CAT delete, not about who's got the smartest comment.

I have a bas map and a hot left foot. Want to know if try worth to Decat, pros and cons.

[1nando]

please stop.

Thread is about CAT delete, not about who's got the smartest comment.

I have a bas map and a hot left foot. Want to know if try worth to decay, pros and cons.Read link and learn!

Puma 2.2 Egt's (https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eaulro%2Ecom%2Faf vb%2Fshowthread%2Ephp%3Ft%3D243318&share_tid=243318&share_fid=669&share_type=t)

Puma 2.2 Egt's

[Tombie]

please stop.

Thread is about CAT delete, not about who's got the smartest comment.

I have a bas map and a hot left foot. Want to know if try worth to Decat, pros and cons.

If you’ve been able to read this ridiculous thread it has been covered in several posts by several of us.

Pro - Cooler foot - even cooler if you wrap it.
More responsive off idle

Con - tampering with emissions system (naughty)
Increased nasties from exhaust (will still pass an EPA emissions test though)

[dazzler]

please stop.

Thread is about CAT delete, not about who's got the smartest comment.

I have a bas map and a hot left foot. Want to know if try worth to Decat, pros and cons.

Suggest you use heat shield and exhaust wrap for your use case. I had this arrangement in my last truck and worked a treat. Will do the same with the new one soon and post findings (I intend to keep CAT for now)

[martnH]

please stop.

Thread is about CAT delete, not about who's got the smartest comment.

I have a bas map and a hot left foot. Want to know if try worth to Decat, pros and cons. The Decat is cheap and reduce cabin temp and also turbo spool up quicker because of that.

But I didn't get it because we may have our first kid soon and that emmision mods like this affects children and elderly the Most.
I may still Decat the defender ten years later

Meanwhile there are plenty of other competitive Mods that can improve engine performance, reduce cabin temp and some more....


P.s. I insulate the foot well from the outside. Using el-cheapo butyl rubber fr Bunnings. Works perfectly too.

If the handbrake is too hot, (so hot that you can't touch it). I am pretty sure that's because of an oveefilled gearbox.https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2018/02/102.jpg

[uninformed]

Stop banging on about the health affects. If it really was a genuine concern for yourself, your family or others you wouldn’t do it depending on the gains it might or may give.

[1nando]

If health concerns were a realistic consideration for anyone who owns a fossil fuel powered vehicle then youd be better off riding a push bike everywhere. Put all terrain tyres on it, a padded seat and a water bottle holder and your touring range just increased an extra 50kms.

People complain about pollution from a decat on a 2.2 defender, yet people like me drive a 400hp v8 petrol that if allowed can drink as much as Merv Hughes after an ashes win that it makes their complaint look ridiculous. Not to mention the thousands of old diesel trucks on the road and then theres the fact that Australia's co2 footprint is so small compared to the rest of the world that a N=1 save the world mentality is futile.

Yes i know its illegal...but so are a lot of other things most of us do in our daily lives.

Ps whats the co2 footprint of every campfire you light up?

[martnH]

There we go again for the second time

.....I don't get the logic that if a problem can't be solved 100% then it's not a problem worthy of any efforts

Logic similar to "there are always thieves out there so why should I pay for my grocery"
Hey maybe that's your justification
At the end of the day, I just point out the facts. And that's all.

We each made our own decisions.

[martnH]

Stop banging on about the health affects. If it really was a genuine concern for yourself, your family or others you wouldn’t do it depending on the gains it might or may give.Exactly my point
I didn't do it and won't do it.

[1nando]

There we go again for the second time

.....I don't get the logic that if a problem can't be solved 100% then it's not a problem worthy of any efforts

Logic similar to "there are always thieves out there so why should I pay for my grocery"
Hey maybe that's your justification
At the end of the day, I just point out the facts. And that's all.

We each made our own decisions.Ever j walked? Its illegal
Ever downloaded music without paying dor it? Its illegal
Ever streamed live sport without paying? Illegal
Ever sent an sms while driving? Illegal
We do illegal things everyday.

A 79 series thats tuned and runs a 3 inch exhahst is more harmful than your tiny 2.2 litre 4 cylinder. If health and safety is such a concern why are you putting you and your family at risk in a vehicle that has no air bags, ancap rating or baby anchor points fitted to seats from factory?
Do you eat mcdonalds or kfc?
The good old vegetable oils in those foods is not conducive to your health either!
I could keep going and going for ever.

This is a car forum not a green peace picnic.

Ps you still havent told me the co2 effect of your campfire.

[martnH]

Ever j walked? Its illegal
Ever downloaded music without paying dor it? Its illegal
Ever streamed live sport without paying? Illegal
Ever sent an sms while driving? Illegal
We do illegal things everyday.

A 79 series thats tuned and runs a 3 inch exhahst is more harmful than your tiny 2.2 litre 4 cylinder. If health and safety is such a concern why are you putting you and your family at risk in a vehicle that has no air bags, ancap rating or baby anchor points fitted to seats from factory?
Do you eat mcdonalds or kfc?
The good old vegetable oils in those foods is not conducive to your health either!
I could keep going and going for ever.

This is a car forum not a green peace picnic.

Ps you still havent told me the co2 effect of your campfire.I was born in country where most people think just like you
It's place where most of the diesel powered trucks are decatted illegally and almost no body gives a **** about the environment.

Guess what. that place is called China.
Mate you are more Chinese than I am......

Hehe anyway I shall stop commenting here as I have no more meaningful information to share

Cheers

[dazzler]

This is what a stock intake looks like, which is designed for a stock tune 90kw tune, I question JLR would have designed this with 140KW + tune in mind. Anyone looked at the 90 AB induction system?

Any how here is the pic

135902

[Tombie]

The 90 AB induction is exactly the same..

[karlz]

Read link and learn!

Puma 2.2 Egt's (https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eaulro%2Ecom%2Faf vb%2Fshowthread%2Ephp%3Ft%3D243318&share_tid=243318&share_fid=669&share_type=t)

Puma 2.2 Egt's

Great post thread learnt a lot, thanks

[ninetubes]

I got in a couple of good 2 hour highway runs on the weekend. About 30degC outside. Handbrake and tunnel/floor were both literally cold. Much driving pleasure was had!

[Olsey]

For those who have removed the Cat, is there a lambda (exhaust gas oxygen) sensor attached to it? I’m assuming there isn’t, as anything wired to the ECU would send out faults if removed.

I had a look around from underneath but couldn’t see any wires going to the Cat. The Defender Microcat shows sensors but that may only be for Euro DPF fitted cars.

[Tombie]

Nothing of that sort on AU spec

[Olsey]

Sorry, found my answer!

There’s a plug on top of the Cat where a sensor would be fitted. A sensor is obviously only for Cats fitted with a DPF.

[dazzler]

The 90 AB induction is exactly the same..

That said the pic of the recent v8 shows a different air box arrangement.


This is my work around for the heat issue:

135970

[karlz]

That said the pic of the recent v8 shows a different air box arrangement.


This is my work around for the heat issue:



Tried something similar, but still hot

[dazzler]

What is getting hot for you?

Transmission will heat up tunnel and seat rail etc if it is overfilled from personal experience not to mention over flow. The correct amount is 2.2L from memory. I had no heating issue after i stuck the shield outside and wrapped the exhaust and rebalanced fluid levels.

Oh I also got rid of the muffler for good measure.

[Tombie]

4.5 hours in 44c heat today and the 90 was nice and cool... [emoji41]

Foot well and Handbrake both cool to the touch.

[PAT303]

Since removing the cat and muffler and unplugging the EGR my TDCi is a very happy motor.No more hesitations or stumbles,it freely rev's to 3K and just drives better with more go while using less fuel,I cannot think of a single downside to any of it. Pat

[Witchdoctor]

My 90 is going in to get this pipe work done tomorrow morning, also going to get the pipe ceramic coated inside & out.

Cheers

Dave

[Witchdoctor]

Very happy with the extra pull this thing has through the whole rev band, I have not had the trailer on yet so we will see how that changes, but very happy so far.
I got them to make me 2 pipes they fitted one so I could drive home & the other will be sent away to be ceramic coated & be fitted in about a week. Then I will have the extra one up for sale. I will take some cab temps tomorrow.

Cheers
Dave

[dazzler]

Very happy with the extra pull this thing has through the whole rev band, I have not had the trailer on yet so we will see how that changes, but very happy so far.
I got them to make me 2 pipes they fitted one so I could drive home & the other will be sent away to be ceramic coated & be fitted in about a week. Then I will have the extra one up for sale. I will take some cab temps tomorrow.

Cheers
Dave

Nice! any Pic's

[AndyG]

Umm MY15 Defender, Nugget air box, mantex snorkel, BAS 150 hp tune, BAS I/C, centre muffler removed, exhaust fully wrapped, heat shield in transmission tunnel, there i stop, for now, [emoji12] overall bum verdict [emoji3] [emoji3] [emoji3] [emoji3] [emoji3] [emoji3]
One question about decat, what about turbo overspooling, which i have seen mentioned elsewhere

[PAT303]

Neither of mine have over-spooled running straight through pipes,or has the Tdi grenaded running Diesel/LPG.I think we can put both those wives tales to bed. Pat

[DazzaTD5]

If you’ve been able to read this ridiculous thread ....



Well I never... As the OP I'm rather offended now [tonguewink][tonguewink][tonguewink]

[Beery]

Overspooling a VGT shouldn't be possible. It is controlled by the moving vanes with feedback from the manifold pressure sensor.

[1nando]

Overspooling a VGT shouldn't be possible. It is controlled by the moving vanes with feedback from the manifold pressure sensor.Amd a electronic actuator controled by ecu

[Witchdoctor]

Some image of the final ( no Ceramic coating ) pipe install.

Under the bonnet looks standard, all shielding was kept as was the pipe bracket location.
The pipe was cut just short of the cross member to make things a little easier to do. Still took 5 hours for 1 man & the occasional 2nd person.
They made 2 pipes for me, one is away getting the coating inside & out & should be back early next week.
These guys did a great job, very professional outfit just south of Brisbane.

Cheers
Dave

[Witchdoctor]

Righto, fuel numbers after pipework.

Last 2 tanks of fuel before pipework. These numbers are a mix of HWY, City & Tamborine Mountain up Oxenford side.
These numbers are correlated from a fuel app.

27/2/18 12.48L/100
4/3/18 11.92L/100

Last tank of fuel after pipework

8/3/18. 10.57L/100

This may drop a little once the excitement drops & I drive normal again.

Very happy.

Cheers
Dave

[Witchdoctor]

So the final pipe work is installed.
The black ceramic coating has been done & the pipework is fitted to my 90.

Im very happy with the improvement in torque my truck now has, everything is effortless.

Im hoping in time a kit will be available to all 2.2 owners.

Cheers
Dave

[1nando]

So the final pipe work is installed.
The black ceramic coating has been done & the pipework is fitted to my 90.

Im very happy with the improvement in torque my truck now has, everything is effortless.

Im hoping in time a kit will be available to all 2.2 owners.

Cheers
DaveDo u have a remap?

Do u run a larger cooler?

[Witchdoctor]

Im running factory intercooler, silicon hoses but I have a very mild re map.

As for the spare dump pipe, that one is spoken for & the exhaust company is using it to make a template from.
A member here is looking to sell this as a kit in time, just looking to see if there is enough interest to out lay the cost to buy in quantities to keep the price down.

Cheers
Dave

[komaterpillar]

Depending on cost, i'll take one.
Any idea on a ballpark figure?

[ninetubes]

mine was about ~$370 as a one-off, incl wrapping and fitting.

[dazzler]

Depending on cost, i'll take one.
Any idea on a ballpark figure?


I will also take one that looks like yours :)

pd

[Witchdoctor]

ninetubes, what did you get for $370 fitted?

I watched 2 experienced exhaust men work on mine for a total of 9 man hours. Then it took a further 2 hours for 1 man to remove the un coated one & install the coated one. Granted I got 2 made but the 2nd one would not have taken that much longer after they built the first.

ninetubes you should look at marketing at that price, as my 2 one offs cost me $1300 fitted with one coated.
Did they remove the Cat?

Cheers
Dave

[Tombie]

Yeah. I’d say they were taking it easy Dave...

It took Paul (my fabricator) and I a combined 5 hours to remove factory, make new replacement, fit, modify tail pipe and road test..

Remove and replace would be 15 minutes for the front section.

[filcar]

$1300??? ouch.

Mine cost $290 to get the cat removed a pipe made up and fitted and with fitting a flange to the cat so I can easily make it legal again if I have to.

[Witchdoctor]

Bugger, Still very happy with the workmanship & the results.

As I'm in a manual labour tradesman these guys did not drag their feet. One worked on the removal of the old pipework & repairing the top heat shield while the other guy made the 2 pipes up. All pipework is mandrel bent rather than press bent & the V flanges had to be hand made.

These guys are not the cheapest exhaust shop in town but the only one that would do the job & have a massive reputation in this industry & come highly recommend.

I have contacted them about making more & the dump pipe would be $600 + fitting without coating. The ceramic coatings comes in 2 forms chrome good for about 800deg C or race black good for 1100deg C. Pipe coating is inside & out whichever one you choose.

Cheers
Dave

[1nando]

I had a decat and a terrafirma straight pipe which eliminates the centre muffler. Great and all up under $750

[ninetubes]

ninetubes, what did you get for $370 fitted?

I watched 2 experienced exhaust men work on mine for a total of 9 man hours. Then it took a further 2 hours for 1 man to remove the un coated one & install the coated one. Granted I got 2 made but the 2nd one would not have taken that much longer after they built the first.

ninetubes you should look at marketing at that price, as my 2 one offs cost me $1300 fitted with one coated.
Did they remove the Cat?

Cheers
Dave

Hey Dave,
I had center muffler and tail pipe replaced previously as the giant JLR one got a bit squashed. Went for high flow system but left the factory cat and front pipe.

~$370 was a replacement front pipe between the turbo and the tailpipe flange near the gearbox cross member. Cat removed and the replacement pipe wrapped & fitted. Local landy mechanic removed it, dropped off to his exhaust supplier, picked it up, wrapped it and re-fitted it whilst it was in for a service. I'm not 100% on the price, but in that ball park as with the service it was about ~$800.

The 90 now a BAS intercooler, hoses and 170 map, k&n filter & nugget ducting, and a slickshift, along with the decat now - gave the mechanic a fright when he test drove it

[1nando]

Hey Dave,
I had center muffler and tail pipe replaced previously as the giant JLR one got a bit squashed. Went for high flow system but left the factory cat and front pipe.

~$370 was a replacement front pipe between the turbo and the tailpipe flange near the gearbox cross member. Cat removed and the replacement pipe wrapped & fitted. Local landy mechanic removed it, dropped off to his exhaust supplier, picked it up, wrapped it and re-fitted it whilst it was in for a service. I'm not 100% on the price, but in that ball park as with the service it was about ~$800.

The 90 now a BAS intercooler, hoses and 170 map, k&n filter & nugget ducting, and a slickshift, along with the decat now - gave the mechanic a fright when he test drove itIm pointing out the obvious here but a egr delete and oil catch can is a good idea to accompany those mods

[ninetubes]

Im pointing out the obvious here but a egr delete and oil catch can is a good idea to accompany those mods
at risk of getting off topic, I agree! The EGR closure option exists within the BAS RRC, so already closed. Not sure about the catch can though, understand it can't hurt, but following various catch can threads there doesn't seem to be too much reported as being "caught" once EGR is shut.

[Tombie]

The 90 now a BAS intercooler, hoses and 170 map, k&n filter & nugget ducting, and a slickshift, along with the decat now - gave the mechanic a fright when he test drove it

I’d seriously recommend losing that K&N filter...

Only thing it’s doing is dusting your engine and reducing its life.

[ninetubes]

I’d seriously recommend losing that K&N filter...

Only thing it’s doing is dusting your engine and reducing its life.

Absolutely, it's total rubbish. I used it bush once and was horrified at the state of the "clean" side when i checked it one night. It's just being used around town because i feel i need to get a bit of "value" out of it. paper one goes back in tonight for easter trip. Appreciate the advice, I'd recommend the same to anyone.

[1nando]

at risk of getting off topic, I agree! The EGR closure option exists within the BAS RRC, so already closed. Not sure about the catch can though, understand it can't hurt, but following various catch can threads there doesn't seem to be too much reported as being "caught" once EGR is shut.You're right but i still managed to get 30ml or so every 6 months. Its not much but id rather drain it than have it in the pipework building up over time.

Also Tombie is correct, the k&n is a silly thing to have.

The decat is definitely a great mod, your egts will be much lower with it

[Jan]

For the ones that are interested, recently had to replace a blown turbo on a Defender 2.2lt TDCi (puma) and did a CAT delete at the same time. Bit of a pain to get out, had to undo the engine mount nut and jack up engine, then still had to bend bracket on cat before I could squeeze it out. Should be the same deal for a 2.4 TDCi (puma) but as the CAT is a bit smaller it may well just fall out.

Its a great mod to do, the improvement dare I say.... better than some remaps and a darn sight cheaper [tonguewink]

Regards
Daz

134140

Dazza - did you loosen engine mounting only on the cat side - or also the other side? Some of the nuts are relatively easily accessible - others not so much. Any tradesman tricks there - especially how to get socket in there to re-torque to spec? Anywhere particular to look when loosened and jacking up the engine? Thanks !!

[DazzaTD5]

Dazza - did you loosen engine mounting only on the cat side - or also the other side? Some of the nuts are relatively easily accessible - others not so much. Any tradesman tricks there - especially how to get socket in there to re-torque to spec? Anywhere particular to look when loosened and jacking up the engine? Thanks !!

Actually since then I have managed to remove that first exhaust section without un-doing the engine mount, but if you find it easier then do the drivers side.

[Dave83]

If anyone knows a place in Melbourne that'll do a CAT delete and custom pipe, please let me know. Contacted a heap of joints with no luck.

[Lagerfan]

So after reading this thread I think I'm sold on the de-cat route for our next upgrade but have a question for other puma owners, what did you do with the old heat shields? Is it no longer necessary with the cat gone and better exhaust flow? None of the off-the-shelf options seem to have any brackets for the heat shields (Allisport/Alive etc), but I see in some of the custom jobs posted here folks have added brackets for putting them back ... Is this to "hide" the fact the cat is missing or is shielding still required?

Cheers

[davisshannon]

Looking at doing a cat delete on my 2016 2.2. I see that some people had to do one or more of the following (cut the bracket, cut the pipe, raise engine, drop transmission cross member) in this thread.

Does anyone have the easiest method to get the down pipe out as of late? I’m hoping to not cut anything, but not against it if makes things much easier.

Had anyone found any exhaust shops in Melbourne willing to do this? And any recommendations on brands of exhaust? I’ve reached out to Demand Engineering in the UK, but that looks like it’s going to be pretty pricey.

Thanks

[Toxic_Avenger]

I had to get in there for servicing

I needed to drop the trans cross brace to wiggle it all out.
To get the cat assembly out requires the bracket to be cut. A saws-all works well.
Can be welded back together upon reassembly.

[davisshannon]

Thanks. Annoying it needs to be cut, but I guess it is what it is. Waiting to see what options I have for cat delete and at least free flow centre section.

[Lagerfan]

I managed to get mine out by undoing the engine mount and using a jack to slightly lift things, there was literally mm in it … but it was bloody hard work and wouldn’t want to do it again.

[davisshannon]

So you didn’t have to cut the bracket? Only the pipe below the cat?

[Lagerfan]

So you didn’t have to cut the bracket? Only the pipe below the cat?

I forgot to mention - sorry to get your hopes up - that I had the transmission off at the time to do the clutch, so got the whole CAT out intact, didn’t have to cut anything. But it was still a mongrel of a job to get it out, reckon I spent the best part of a day just trying to get it in the right position to get it to drop out.

If I recall the workshop manual talks about undoing the engine mount or mounts to get it out.