Sadly our history has some very dark parts

[NavyDiver]

Colonial Frontier Massacres
in Eastern Australia 1788-1872 (https://c21ch.newcastle.edu.au/colonialmassacres/map.php)Growing up my grandfathers Western Districts farm had a basket of Spears, Shields and woomeras. As a child I was always fascinated by them. As an Adult I wondered again how they came to be in my families processions, As a child I was told they had been found traded or collected.

Chatting to my mum about them again recently dropped a bomb on that with a discussion on how scandalise she was by the needless shooting of people which occurred in her youth. I think she is now a little demented but this recollection made me think of the basket of Spears, Shields and woomeras which were destroyed in a fire decades ago.



The Time Line (https://c21ch.newcastle.edu.au/colonialmassacres/timeline.php) puts more than a few massacares in horse riding range of the area. I appreciate the fear ignorance and missunderstadings which contributed to massacres. It is shameful in my view that it is hiden or not acknoldged.

Saddly My mothers recolections if correct would relate to 1940-1950s well after the time line of the links.

[JDNSW]

It is possible that your mother is taking things she was told when young by her mother as her own experience. I would have thought that 1940-50s was too recent; I do not believe that the original aboriginal lifestyle was current anywhere in Victoria that late, they had all been killed, died from introduced diseases, or moved in to reserves by the 1920s.

[PhilipA]

I refer you to the Myall Creek Massacre near Moree which was in 1838.

AFAIK it was the first massacre where the perpetrators were convicted of murder.
This of course put somewhat of a brake on future massacres.
So certainly in NSW this was one of the last massacres.
It is ancient history.
I have visited the site of the massacre and been given a lecture on it by Moree's major Black historian.

Inside History magazine | The Myall Creek massacre re-examined (http://www.insidehistory.com.au/2014/06/the-myall-creek-massacre-re-examined/).

There was a series by Joe Hilderbrand where he bought some Indians to Australia to learn about the disgraceful history. They were surprised to hear that the perpetrators had been convicted ( and Hanged -historian's words) . They were later chased by a group of Aborigines in Alice Springs into their hotel and the foyer trashed much to my ROTFL.
Regards Philip A
BTW I once met an old lady who was a child on the Diamantina Station next to The Duracks. She told me that there was a billabong there that she was swimming in one day when she dived and came up with a baby's skull. The station had a benevolent attitude to The aborigines and used to have the tribe camp by a billabong and issue them weekly with TSF ( tea , sugar, flour) and a six monthly ration of clothing etc. The elders used to force the tribe to go walkabout in the hottest part of summer which tended to purify the tribe as all the old and maim died on the trek.

This all changed when the government forced equal wages and they could no longer afford to maintain the whole tribe.

I also refer you to Wlliam Buckley's biography. The aboriginal tribes massacred more of their own than the whites it appears.
https://www.textpublishing.com.au/books/the-life-and-adventures-of-william-buckley

[DiscoMick]

The Frontier Wars have been mapped.

New map records massacres of Aboriginal people in Frontier Wars - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-05/new-map-plots-massacres-of-aboriginal-people-in-frontier-wars/8678466)

[trout1105]

Things were VERY different in the 1800's to what they are now and post WW2.
In the 1800's it wasn't ONLY the Aboriginals that copped a pineapple, The poor people in Europe AND Australia were treated abysmally as well.
I put it to you that the early convicts forced to Australia for in many cases minor crimes that were usually committed due to the abject poverty at that time were treated just as badly as the native population and most likely in many cases much worse.

The Aristocracy at that time had little concern about the welfare of the poor, the misguided and the Aboriginal and treated them ALL rather badly Not only in Australia but in what at that time was considered to be the "Civilised World", America is a perfect example of this.
Why is it that when these types of discussions start nearly everyone seems to forgets the atrocities committed by the Aristocracy upon the Poor, the Chinese, The South sea islanders and many other peoples that had been forced or lured to Australia in its formative years and solely focus upon the hard times the Aboriginals faced.
During the 1700's, 1800's and the early part of the 1900's the vast majority of ALL the peoples of Australia faced a pretty dismal future of servitude, abuse and violence.

[gusthedog]

To my knowledge the last known sanctioned massacre was in the NT in 1928

Coniston massacre - Wikipedia (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coniston_massacre)

Unsanctioned or secret massacres would have occurred later than that.

[V8Ian]

Things were VERY different in the 1800's to what they are now and post WW2.
In the 1800's it wasn't ONLY the Aboriginals that copped a pineapple, The poor people in Europe AND Australia were treated abysmally as well.
I put it to you that the early convicts forced to Australia for in many cases minor crimes that were usually committed due to the abject poverty at that time were treated just as badly as the native population and most likely in many cases much worse.

The Aristocracy at that time had little concern about the welfare of the poor, the misguided and the Aboriginal and treated them ALL rather badly Not only in Australia but in what at that time was considered to be the "Civilised World", America is a perfect example of this.
Why is it that when these types of discussions start nearly everyone seems to forgets the atrocities committed by the Aristocracy upon the Poor, the Chinese, The South sea islanders and many other peoples that had been forced or lured to Australia in its formative years and solely focus upon the hard times the Aboriginals faced.
During the 1700's, 1800's and the early part of the 1900's the vast majority of ALL the peoples of Australia faced a pretty dismal future of servitude, abuse and violence.
Let them eat cake.

[trout1105]

Those four words pretty much sum it all up Mate [thumbsupbig]
I don't think that the aristocracy were all bigots or racists, They treated EVERYONE with contempt [bigwhistle]

[JDNSW]

It was not even that simple. I have just finished reading "Rounding the Horn" by Dallas Murphy. This covers the history of Cape Horn, including the interaction between the "Canoe Indians" and Europeans. The first mission to these started about 1850, with the best of intentions, and at considerable financial and personal cost to quite a few aristocrats and upper middle class Englishmen. By 1900 the culture of the Canoe Indians was virtually extinct and the numbers down to a few hundred. By 1930 there were none left. While there were a few massacres (from both sides!), the main reason for their extinctions was disease - principally measles, and destruction of their way of life.

There have been similar results from clash of cultures throughout history, although best documented over the last five hundred or so years. You can't just blame the aristocrats.

[gusthedog]

Things were VERY different in the 1800's to what they are now and post WW2.
In the 1800's it wasn't ONLY the Aboriginals that copped a pineapple, The poor people in Europe AND Australia were treated abysmally as well.
I put it to you that the early convicts forced to Australia for in many cases minor crimes that were usually committed due to the abject poverty at that time were treated just as badly as the native population and most likely in many cases much worse.

The Aristocracy at that time had little concern about the welfare of the poor, the misguided and the Aboriginal and treated them ALL rather badly Not only in Australia but in what at that time was considered to be the "Civilised World", America is a perfect example of this.
Why is it that when these types of discussions start nearly everyone seems to forgets the atrocities committed by the Aristocracy upon the Poor, the Chinese, The South sea islanders and many other peoples that had been forced or lured to Australia in its formative years and solely focus upon the hard times the Aboriginals faced.
During the 1700's, 1800's and the early part of the 1900's the vast majority of ALL the peoples of Australia faced a pretty dismal future of servitude, abuse and violence.164,000 convicts were sent to Australia. There were 60,000 Aboriginal people remaining in Australia in 1920. The original estimate of Indigenous Australia's population is unknown but has been estimated between 300,000 and 3,000,000. I'd reckon on numbers alone, Aboriginal murders in early European settlement were 10 fold compared to convict deaths.

Early convicts weren't treated well but they were definitely not subject to genocide like first Australians. That's why people think about their treatment more.

Our early democracy also systematically aimed to destroy any remaining indigenous culture within the country. Nowhere else in the worls has it been so successful.

[cripesamighty]

Oh I don’t know about that. From memory the descendants of the original inhabitants of Japan are only found in a small pocket on the Northernmost island. What we today consider as ‘the Japanese’ came from the mainland (in probably 2 waves) and wiped out the locals already living there. Sadly it’s a common feature throughout our past. I’d hate to think what would happen if aliens ever showed themselves sometime in the future. It wouldn’t turn out well for the less advanced culture - namely us!

[trout1105]

164,000 convicts were sent to Australia. There were 60,000 Aboriginal people remaining in Australia in 1920. The original estimate of Indigenous Australia's population is unknown but has been estimated between 300,000 and 3,000,000. I'd reckon on numbers alone, Aboriginal murders in early European settlement were 10 fold compared to convict deaths.


So what you are saying by that statement is that between 240,000 to 2,994,000 Aboriginals were murdered or caused to perish by the settlers?
I find that hard to believe.
The true cause of most of the convict deaths is unknown But it is fair to surmise that it was mainly due to the conditions and treatment that they were subject to at the time.
I also dispute the 60,000 figure in 1920 because there would have been NO way that anyone would know exactly how many Aboriginal people were in Australia at that time as many of the first Australians had moved to cities and towns and some had even married/shacked up members of the new Australians
Maybe someone took a "Best Guess" estimate of 60,000 still living traditionally But that's all it would have been a Guess.

[Ean Austral]

Is there any country in the world that doesn't have some sort of dark past. Just a matter of how far back do we want to go.

Our past is nothing to shy away from and nothing to be proud of that's for sure. There is certainly a long way to go to improve things in this country.

Indigenous Australian clans do war with each other , seen it in Wadeye in the NT about 10 or so years ago.

Cheers Ean

[DiscoMick]

Convicts certainly were treated badly, but there were laws to protect them, such as requirements for masters to feed and house them, and there were cases of convicts successfully appealing to magistrates against bad treatment. They were usually freed after eight years.
None of that protection was afforded to the indigenous people, who were systematically dispossessed and exterminated. That's just the way it was.

[Tins]

If I try, I can trace my family back through, on the Scot side, Wallace, Robert The Bruce. On the other side I'd find Edward. I reckon that most of the folk who post here will have at least a couple of skeletons in their closets.

Will you all choose to live in the past, and be judged by the sins of your grandfathers? If so, if you choose that, you are all idiots.

This hasn't been my best day, judge my comments in that light...

[trout1105]

Will you all choose to live in the past, and be judged by the sins of your grandfathers? If so, if you choose that, you are all idiots.

This hasn't been my best day, judge my comments in that light...

I couldn't agree with you more Old Mate, I for one have had a guts full of people trying to put a "Guilt Trip" on me for events that happened a century or more ago.
The Future is what IS important and is what we should be concerned about The past is just history that NONE of us had anything to do with anyway.

[PhilipA]

None of that protection was afforded to the indigenous people, who were systematically dispossessed and exterminated. That's just the way it was.
I have to say "not everywhere"
if you go to the library in Braidwood you can read the diary of the Governor of the area. There is a chapter relating to instructions to distribute extra blankets to aboriginals as the winter was expected to be cold.
In addition the aboriginals worked for the early settlers with mixed results. Some were regarded as equal to Europeans and others were prone to walkabout, much like our population today.
The aboriginals also showed the white settlers how to get from the coast to the plateau.Macquarie Pass.
There seemed to be quite a bit of cooperation both ways.

I also read one theory that the aboriginal population had been decimated prior to white settlement by smallpox caught from Malaccan fisherman who traded with them leaving a very small population .

[Pickles2]

If I try, I can trace my family back through, on the Scot side, Wallace, Robert The Bruce. On the other side I'd find Edward. I reckon that most of the folk who post here will have at least a couple of skeletons in their closets.

Will you all choose to live in the past, and be judged by the sins of your grandfathers? If so, if you choose that, you are all idiots.

This hasn't been my best day, judge my comments in that light...
Well said, I agree with you.
Pickles.

[gusthedog]

I couldn't agree with you more Old Mate, I for one have had a guts full of people trying to put a "Guilt Trip" on me for events that happened a century or more ago.
The Future is what IS important and is what we should be concerned about The past is just history that NONE of us had anything to do with anyway.It's not a guilt trip. It's recognition of actual fact. There is a massive difference.

[gusthedog]

Oh I don’t know about that. From memory the descendants of the original inhabitants of Japan are only found in a small pocket on the Northernmost island. What we today consider as ‘the Japanese’ came from the mainland (in probably 2 waves) and wiped out the locals already living there. Sadly it’s a common feature throughout our past. I’d hate to think what would happen if aliens ever showed themselves sometime in the future. It wouldn’t turn out well for the less advanced culture - namely us!There were originally around 80,000 Aynu in Japan. There are now around 20,000 people that identify themselves as Aynu. Look it up on google. They have a history back to the 14th century. Not 60 to 80 thousand years as we have here.

My point is that our ancestors are responsible for decimating the oldest culture on earth. That needs to be understood and reflected on.

[bob10]

No one of this age should feel guilty about sins of our fathers. However, we should not ignore our past. I have a book, " Up rode the Troopers ", about the QLD Native Police. Two quotes from this book, from people of that time, reveal with great clarity , the attitude of the time. one;

" There was but one law for them that they will ever respect- the bullet; the sole logic, the cock of the rifles.

I would as soon shoot a blackfellow as a dog."

In May 1861 , a Select Committee on the Native Police Force was appointed to enquire into the Force and the conditions of Aborigines generally. Evidence given by Captain John Coley during the enquiry gives us an insight into the treatment of Aborigines. Coley is being questioned by the Chairman.
q. how long has the settlement been open for settlement?
a. About 12months.

q. You have seen a good deal of the Aborigines since your arrival?
a. Yes.

q. You tell the committee of your own knowledge of what the number was on your arrival, that they have diminished since the settlement of the district?
a.Quite so. they are all gone, altogether extinct.

q. In what way?.
a.By shooting and poisoning them.

What with?
a. With strychnine and arsenic, in flour.

The Native Police were led by Europeans, and recruited from tribal areas remote from where they operated. The majority of Qld Native Police came from the Kooris of NSW, with no tribal allegiance to the people they were policing. And no pity for them.

[Zeros]

Some of my ancestors were involved in acts of Aboriginal genocide as police in the early 1800's. This doesn't make me feel guilty. It makes me sad and determined to demonstrate that equality through true collaboration with Aboriginal people in the present is valuable and rewarding in many ways. This has been a high priority for me for all of my adult life.

The 'past' is always present, it's how we behave today with that knowledge that counts.

[cripesamighty]

Bit further back than that. I think from recent DNA studies, the Ainus were in Japan prior to 15,000 years ago. The America’s got established especially hammered, mostly from disease. Face it, as humans going back through to pre-history, we haven’t on the whole been very nice to each other, intentionally or not.
The Origins of the Japanese people - Japanese History - Wa-pedia (https://www.wa-pedia.com/history/origins_japanese_people.shtml)

[rick130]

A little tangent, there was a brilliant discussion on The Drum a week ago on what needs doing to address the serious health issues, domestic violence and incarceration rates of indigenous Australians.

Work needs to be done on both sides.

Throwing money at an issue without real processes in place never works, and as Jacinta Price, an Alice Springs councillor said, customs and rites need to bend to fit into the modern world so the next generation have half a chance.
She has sons and she wants them educated so they can deal with the modern world, then do the initiation's and rites of manhood if they wish to once they're 18.

[bob10]

This seems an appropriate place for this story on Aboriginal stockmen. Why women? most of the men had been killed in the frontier wars.

Forgotten legacy of Aboriginal stockwomen becomes subject of PhD research - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-08/forgotten-legacy-of-aboriginal-stockwomen-subject-of-research/9299478?utm_source=sfmc&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=%3a8940&user_id=c17365ab07572ed90614d245ada5ad675f6bc00189 fa766123c70d76d1d7cddf&WT.tsrc=email&WT.mc_id=Email%7c%7c8940&utm_content=RuralMail_ArticleLink)

[laney]

History is a funny thing it all depends on how you view it I think ours is no more or less violent then any other I believe we should acknowledge our past but not feel guilty for it as we had no part to play in it. I have been told by some that we stole this land my view is no as with all of history if you can't defend it someone will take it of you this still goes on today for example south china sea, Isis,the Crimea,and so on how history judges these events many years from now will be interesting.

[V8Ian]

History is a funny thing it all depends on how you view it I think ours is no more or less violent then any other I believe we should acknowledge our past but not feel guilty for it as we had no part to play in it. I have been told by some that we stole this land my view is no as with all of history if you can't defend it someone will take it of you this still goes on today for example south china sea, Isis,the Crimea,and so on how history judges these events many years from now will be interesting.
Or who wrote it.

[Ean Austral]

Or who wrote it.

Yes - usually the most important part..

[DiscoMick]

Photos show Aboriginals shackled in chains | Daily Mail Online (http://dailym.ai/2CVqMG4)

[Zeros]

Or who wrote it.

Indeed. Written history is usually just that - His Story.

Thanks for the link to those photo's DiscoMick - that history doesn't lie. Shows clearly how images are usually more powerful and truthful than written histories. The clear strength of those people despite being in chains is humbling to say the least. The perpetrators look weak in comparison.

[rick130]

Or who wrote it.
Yes - usually the most important part..Which is why good historians draw from as many sources as possible to reduce biases

[PhilipA]

The Duracks were being attacked and murdered up until the 1930s AFAIR.
Some of the chained aboriginals are not so innocent or guilty of “petty crimes”
look up Tunnel Creek then go to the story of Pigeon. It is a very sympathetic account IMHO
AFAIK the most common crime was spearing cattle as they were easier to kill than Roos , but of course too many killed could affe ct the station owner a lot.
Regards Philip A
ps I have no guilt as my ancestors were all free settlers in NSW and on the male side employed aboriginals to find cedar .

regards Philip A

[tact]

"Saddly our history has some very dark parts" [sic] is the title of this thread and focus is on events that go back hundreds of years. Granted some comment has suggested murders as recent as 1930.

My own past, my own life and living memory, has some dark parts to it too - and that only goes back to late 1959.

The person I am today (a fine upstanding, honest and contributory member of society, able to be trusted with your 19yo french maid while you are on holidays) is partly a result of the mistakes (and even deliberate acts of unrighteousness) I was guilty of, in my younger days.

I paid for some of my errors and got away with others. The man I am now chooses more wisely than the man of my youth. I have made my peace with my past and am glad that social media never existed back then - so my mistakes are not pinned on a global noticeboard forever.

Doesn't any of the ways that we develop as individuals relate to Australia's growth and maturing as a country too? I think it does.

So in the same spirit I would say go **** off to anyone who wants to hold something I did back in my youth against me now - I will say the same, **** off, to anyone who wants to hold Australia to ransom for the sins of our forefathers

[DiscoMick]

We can't change the past, but it would be good if we learned from it. Sadly, some seem to prefer to ignore it than to learn from it, so we keep repeating the same mistakes and deliberate offences.

[bob10]

Photos show Aboriginals shackled in chains | Daily Mail Online (http://dailym.ai/2CVqMG4)

It was the wild west for some time. In 1865 the British Colonial Secretaries Office decreed no convicts could be used as forced labour beyond the 26th parallel, because of the extreme heat. Consequently, aboriginals were forced into labour, often under chains, and cattle were moved into the land of the local people. Inevitably, blood was spilled on both sides, with the most notorious local, Jandamarra, [ pigeon] reaching hero status amongst his people. Guilty of murdering white people, about 4 I think, it all started when he was working for the police as a tracker. Sent out to track down [ and allegedly shoot] some natives spearing cattle, Jandamarra found the group. They were from his own family, and when told 500 cattle had been pushed onto his tribal lands , he ended up shooting the policeman in charge of his party. After evading the white police for quite a while, it ended when a fellow black tracker shot him. It wasn't until 1966 that equal pay between white and black working on the cattle stations was made law.

Indigenous history in northern WA

The history of Aboriginal people in Australia’s northwest differs greatly from those on the east coast or in southern WA due to a colonial quirk. The British Colonial Secretaries Office decreed in 1865 that due to the extreme heat no convict labour was to be used further north than the 26th parallel. Consequently, rather than being slaughtered as on the east coast, local indigenous people were pressed into service in the burgeoning pastoral and pearling industries, meaning that their white “owners” were paradoxically depleting their workforces whenever they wanted to imprison local Aborigines for minor offences (an unsurprisingly regular occurrence).


The story of Jandamarra or “Pigeon” gives an interesting perspective on relations between Aborigines and white settlers.
Jandamarra, a member of the Bunuba group, was made a “tracker” in the 1890s, and was expected to work with the white police force to weed out Aboriginal criminals. When rounding up a group of such “criminals” at Lillimooloora Police Station in 1894, Jandamarra’s loyalties to his people returned to the fore, and he killed a policeman, Constable Richardson, instigating a three-year “war” between his followers and the police force. His escapes from Windjana Gorge and Tunnel Creek entered folklore – in the latter case the police staked out one end of the tunnel for days, in the belief that it was a cave, while Jandamarra escaped from the other end. Ironically, it was another Aboriginal tracker who caught and shot Jandamarra at Tunnel Creek in 1897.


By the 1880s, huge numbers of Aboriginal people were “black-birded”, or uprooted from their traditional communities, and marched for hundreds of kilometres to pastoral or pearling stations. With pastoralism dominating the area’s economy for the next hundred years, it took a shamefully long time for the mistreatment of indigenous workers to end, and it was only in 1966 that equal pay was granted to Aboriginal stockmen and farm workers. Unfortunately, this did not bring an end to Aboriginal suffering, as the increased mechanization of the farming industry resulted in the now-unwanted labourers being driven off the stations and into towns far away from their traditional land.


Today, the harsh realities of indigenous life are displayed at every turn in the Kimberley, particularly in towns along the highway such as Halls Creek and Fitzroy Crossing. On a more positive note, Aboriginal art is a growing force across the region, bringing funds in to poor communities and in some cases alleviating social problems. The galleries and workshops in Roebourne and Kununurra are well worth a visit.

[Zeros]

Many so called 'Free Settlers' got their land for 'free'. IE: it was stolen from Aboriginal people, who were then chained up and murdered because they were protecting their land. All private and public land owned by anyone other than Aboriginal people in Australia falls into this category. We should all bear this in mind when making claims about our rights as Australian citizens. There is yet to be a Treaty which resolves the issues around this fact. Until there is there will continue to be intercultural anxiety. We all have a responsibility to recognise this and work towards a Treaty IMO.

[Ean Austral]

Many so called 'Free Settlers' got their land for 'free'. IE: it was stolen from Aboriginal people, who were then chained up and murdered because they were protecting their land. All private and public land owned by anyone other than Aboriginal people in Australia falls into this category. We should all bear this in mind when making claims about our rights as Australian citizens. There is yet to be a Treaty which resolves the issues around this fact. Until there is there will continue to be intercultural anxiety. We all have a responsibility to recognise this and work towards a Treaty IMO.

Interesting point of view - I don't agree with it, but can respect it.

In any treaty it takes all parties to work towards a common goal. Lets hope that happens sooner rather than later.

Cheers Ean

[trout1105]

Many so called 'Free Settlers' got their land for 'free'. IE: it was stolen from Aboriginal people, who were then chained up and murdered because they were protecting their land. All private and public land owned by anyone other than Aboriginal people in Australia falls into this category. We should all bear this in mind when making claims about our rights as Australian citizens. There is yet to be a Treaty which resolves the issues around this fact. Until there is there will continue to be intercultural anxiety. We all have a responsibility to recognise this and work towards a Treaty IMO.

A treaty with Who?
The vast majority of people that call themselves Aboriginal these days are of mixed race now, So are these people also to be held accountable as well because of their part Non Aboriginal heritage. Or do they make a treaty with themselves?
All this talk about treaties and things like calling Australia day "Invasion day" and cancelling the event does Nothing for reconciliation in fact I put it to you that it is a cause of Division in our society.
We are ALL Australians and we are ALL responsible for building the infrastructure, the security and the social safeguards that EVERYONE now enjoys So we ALL have the same rights as Australians and to say that one particular race of people that live in Australia have MORE rights than others is Racist and is Exactly the Same Sick thinking that the early settlers had.
If you think about ALL the people that now live in Australia and call themselves Australians you will see that we are a VERY diverse society populated with people from many nations and that the vast majority of these people arrived AFTER all the atrocities occurred and they AND their ancestors had NOTHING whatsoever to do with these atrocities, Why and What should these people be held accountable for?

We are ALL Australians, End of story.
Lets get on with the business of building Australia NOT dividing Australia [thumbsupbig]

[Pickles2]

A treaty with Who?
The vast majority of people that call themselves Aboriginal these days are of mixed race now, So are these people also to be held accountable as well because of their part Non Aboriginal heritage. Or do they make a treaty with themselves?
All this talk about treaties and things like calling Australia day "Invasion day" and cancelling the event does Nothing for reconciliation in fact I put it to you that it is a cause of Division in our society.
We are ALL Australians and we are ALL responsible for building the infrastructure, the security and the social safeguards that EVERYONE now enjoys So we ALL have the same rights as Australians and to say that one particular race of people that live in Australia have MORE rights than others is Racist and is Exactly the Same Sick thinking that the early settlers had.
If you think about ALL the people that now live in Australia and call themselves Australians you will see that we are a VERY diverse society populated with people from many nations and that the vast majority of these people arrived AFTER all the atrocities occurred and they AND their ancestors had NOTHING whatsoever to do with these atrocities, Why and What should these people be held accountable for?

We are ALL Australians, End of story.
Lets get on with the business of building Australia NOT dividing Australia [thumbsupbig]
Well said, I agree 100%.
Pickles.

[PhilipA]

The Mabo judgment was made over the land rights of Torres Strait islanders who have a completely different culture of land ownership to Aboriginals who AFAIK have NO traditional idea of land ownership.

Nevertheless about 50% of Australia has now been gifted to Aboriginals by "progressive" governments and judiciary and other citizens of Australia have been in many cases banned from visiting these places , or requiring permits.

In most cases where land has been given to aboriginals as cleared productive land like operating cattle and sheep stations it has quickly fallen into disrepair causing the "giftees" to return to their life of indolence on the dole.

The great "heist" of requiring mining companies to give royalties to the "giftees" for non existent claims over vast tracts of land where they may or may not have wandered aimfully in order to hunt the occasional kangaroo has added to the rort.
I just wish I could claim all the land that I wandered over as a child, destroy its money making potential and then go on the dole for life.

Regards Philip A

[DiscoMick]

The Mabo judgment was made over the land rights of Torres Strait islanders who have a completely different culture of land ownership to Aboriginals who AFAIK have NO traditional idea of land ownership.

Nevertheless about 50% of Australia has now been gifted to Aboriginals by "progressive" governments and judiciary and other citizens of Australia have been in many cases banned from visiting these places , or requiring permits.

In most cases where land has been given to aboriginals as cleared productive land like operating cattle and sheep stations it has quickly fallen into disrepair causing the "giftees" to return to their life of indolence on the dole.

The great "heist" of requiring mining companies to give royalties to the "giftees" for non existent claims over vast tracts of land where they may or may not have wandered aimfully in order to hunt the occasional kangaroo has added to the rort.
I just wish I could claim all the land that I wandered over as a child, destroy its money making potential and then go on the dole for life.

Regards Philip A

It's not true to say that Aboriginals have 'no traditional idea of land ownership.' They have a very strong idea of land ownership, but they express it differently to us because the tribes were nomadic and moved about, rather than building settlements and farms.
Their traditional lifestyle is also quite different to ours. There are successful stations, but remember that their traditional objective is not to farm like us, but to subsist on the land, so what looks like neglect to us is not neglect to them. There are two quite different concepts of how to manage land, so we can't judge one by the other. They probably think we neglect our land by not following their traditional practices.
Anyway, we can't undo the past invasion, dispossession and decimation, but we sure could get a lot smarter about how to achieve harmony for the future. For example, every time we hear outrage over the serious problems in Aboriginal communities such as drunkenness, violence, abuse etc., remember that they are symptoms of the breakdown of their traditional society caused by our invasion.
The answer isn't to force them to become more like us, but rather to assist them to re-establish positive elements of their traditional lifestyle. It has been done in other places, including New Zealand, so it is possible, but only if we in the dominant society get smarter in our appreciation of what's really involved.
For example, sending in the army or police is not the answer, it's just a repeat of the mistakes of the past. Helping communities to become self-governing and self-regulating would be a step in the right direction. It's certainly very difficult because the situation is such a mess, but it could only help.

[trout1105]

It's not true to say that Aboriginals have 'no traditional idea of land ownership.' They have a very strong idea of land ownership, but they express it differently to us because the tribes were nomadic and moved about, rather than building settlements and farms.
Their traditional lifestyle is also quite different to ours. There are successful stations, but remember that their traditional objective is not to farm like us, but to subsist on the land, so what looks like neglect to us is not neglect to them. There are two quite different concepts of how to manage land, so we can't judge one by the other. They probably think we neglect our land by not following their traditional practices.
Anyway, we can't undo the past invasion, dispossession and decimation, but we sure could get a lot smarter about how to achieve harmony for the future. For example, every time we hear outrage over the serious problems in Aboriginal communities such as drunkenness, violence, abuse etc., remember that they are symptoms of the breakdown of their traditional society caused by our invasion.
The answer isn't to force them to become more like us, but rather to assist them to re-establish positive elements of their traditional lifestyle. It has been done in other places, including New Zealand, so it is possible, but only if we in the dominant society get smarter in our appreciation of what's really involved.
For example, sending in the army or police is not the answer, it's just a repeat of the mistakes of the past. Helping communities to become self-governing and self-regulating would be a step in the right direction. It's certainly very difficult because the situation is such a mess, but it could only help.

Written like a True Ivory tower occupant.
What "invasion" ?
We "Settled" here much like the Aboriginals did thousands of years ago.

[DiscoMick]

Written like a True Ivory tower occupant.
What "invasion" ?
We "Settled" here much like the Aboriginals did thousands of years ago.

Not ivory tower at all mate - been there, seen enough.
Settlement involved invasion, dispossession and decimation - that's just historical fact, which has to be accepted if we are to make a better future together. Denial is not a policy for harmony.

[V8Ian]

Maybe some of the armchair experts should do some reading before spruiking further.

Dark Emu - Culture and History | Magabala Books (https://www.magabala.com/culture-and-history/dark-emu.html)

[Classic88]

Written like a True Ivory tower occupant.
What "invasion" ?
We "Settled" here much like the Aboriginals did thousands of years ago.

Would you say that India, Canada, South Africa etc were 'settled' in the same way?

[incisor]

It has been done in other places, including New Zealand,

I think the poor white trash over there may beg to differ with you....

[biggrin]

[rick130]

Maybe some of the armchair experts should do some reading before spruiking further.

Dark Emu - Culture and History | Magabala Books (https://www.magabala.com/culture-and-history/dark-emu.html)Have you read that one Ian?
Did his arguments hold up?
Looks like it would be an interesting read.

[DiscoMick]

Maybe some of the armchair experts should do some reading before spruiking further.

Dark Emu - Culture and History | Magabala Books (https://www.magabala.com/culture-and-history/dark-emu.html)

Looks interesting, thanks for the link.
From the summary it appears he's not justifying dispossession. Rather, he's disputing the idea that dispossession was justified because Aboriginal society was too primitive to be worth preserving. He seems to be saying Aboriginal society was more sophisticated than whites realised, if I understand it correctly. I'd agree with that.

[DiscoMick]

I think the poor white trash over there may beg to differ with you....

[biggrin]

I'm sure the 'poor white trash' everywhere would beg to differ, but that doesn't make them right.

[incisor]

I'm sure the 'poor white trash' everywhere would beg to differ, but that doesn't make them right.

in your opinion

pretty sure they are as entitled to think they are right as you do [wink11]

[Ean Austral]

It's not true to say that Aboriginals have 'no traditional idea of land ownership.' They have a very strong idea of land ownership, but they express it differently to us because the tribes were nomadic and moved about, rather than building settlements and farms.
Their traditional lifestyle is also quite different to ours. There are successful stations, but remember that their traditional objective is not to farm like us, but to subsist on the land, so what looks like neglect to us is not neglect to them. There are two quite different concepts of how to manage land, so we can't judge one by the other. They probably think we neglect our land by not following their traditional practices.
Anyway, we can't undo the past invasion, dispossession and decimation, but we sure could get a lot smarter about how to achieve harmony for the future. For example, every time we hear outrage over the serious problems in Aboriginal communities such as drunkenness, violence, abuse etc., remember that they are symptoms of the breakdown of their traditional society caused by our invasion.
The answer isn't to force them to become more like us, but rather to assist them to re-establish positive elements of their traditional lifestyle. It has been done in other places, including New Zealand, so it is possible, but only if we in the dominant society get smarter in our appreciation of what's really involved.
For example, sending in the army or police is not the answer, it's just a repeat of the mistakes of the past. Helping communities to become self-governing and self-regulating would be a step in the right direction. It's certainly very difficult because the situation is such a mess, but it could only help.

It was drummed into me from a young age that I be accountable for my actions, if I **** up , then own up and take the punishment and learn from it. How long are we going to continue to blame the "White Fella " for the continued actions of people in Aboriginal communities. Isnt it time as a community they started to address the problems themselves.?

In the NT most communities are dry , so what happens , the people from the communities come into town and drink themselves stupid and live basically where they fall. They then humbug people for money when they have none left and are quite happy to call you every white so & so, and remind you that its THIER land when you refuse. Various NT governments have tried all sorts of things like night patrols, pick them up and return them to their communities if they are remote from Darwin , they now want to build more sober up shelters to address the itinerants as they are now called. So more and more money gets thrown at it because for some strange reason its OUR problem.

There are good and bad in all races of people but to continue down the road of this somehow being OUR problem and people not being accountable for their actions , and the communities seem happy to not address the problem either - just blame the government for not fixing a problem.

Just how it seems to me , and I have spent enough time at various communities over the years as well.

Cheers Ean

[V8Ian]

Have you read that one Ian?
Did his arguments hold up?
Looks like it would be an interesting read.
Rick, I haven't yet read the book, it's on my list.
There was an interview on (ABC) Conversations, last year, with Bruce Pascoe about the book. A very interesting programme; Bruce is an extremely intelligent, highly educated man with a terrific sense of humour.

From the interview, "I'm a snoboriginal."

[DiscoMick]

It was drummed into me from a young age that I be accountable for my actions, if I **** up , then own up and take the punishment and learn from it. How long are we going to continue to blame the "White Fella " for the continued actions of people in Aboriginal communities. Isnt it time as a community they started to address the problems themselves.?

In the NT most communities are dry , so what happens , the people from the communities come into town and drink themselves stupid and live basically where they fall. They then humbug people for money when they have none left and are quite happy to call you every white so & so, and remind you that its THIER land when you refuse. Various NT governments have tried all sorts of things like night patrols, pick them up and return them to their communities if they are remote from Darwin , they now want to build more sober up shelters to address the itinerants as they are now called. So more and more money gets thrown at it because for some strange reason its OUR problem.

There are good and bad in all races of people but to continue down the road of this somehow being OUR problem and people not being accountable for their actions , and the communities seem happy to not address the problem either - just blame the government for not fixing a problem.

Just how it seems to me , and I have spent enough time at various communities over the years as well.

Cheers Ean
I agree. Support the tribal leaders to reassume authority over their communities and apply tribal law. They need to take back control. Outsiders can't do it, it has to come from within the tribe.

[trout1105]

I agree. Support the tribal leaders to reassume authority over their communities and apply tribal law. They need to take back control. Outsiders can't do it, it has to come from within the tribe.

You still don't "get it", In Australia we ALL belong to the same Tribe.

[Pickles2]

I agree. Support the tribal leaders to reassume authority over their communities and apply tribal law. They need to take back control. Outsiders can't do it, it has to come from within the tribe.,
No, the problem is "they" can't do it,.....and this is the problem which has been proven time & time again, "they" can't do it, and there are many of "them" that admit to this,....but some, with more "influence", overwhelm these well meaning people, with the result that the situation is not improved at all, but is getting worse, despite ever increasing dollars thrown at it.
A recent survey about the amount of dollars (most in Aussie) thrown at Northern Australian communities, revealed absolutely the worst results per dollar in Aussie,....dollars is not the answer,... ,I know what is,....I would like to hear the views of others before I reveal.
Finally, just have to say, there are views from absolutely opposite "sides" here,....I know mine are different from many, so I'd just like to commend all members from getting "personal" against each other. I disagree vigorously with some comments on this thread,.....I hope respectably.
Pickles.

[Ean Austral]

I agree. Support the tribal leaders to reassume authority over their communities and apply tribal law. They need to take back control. Outsiders can't do it, it has to come from within the tribe.

Sorry Mick , maybe 30 yrs ago that may have worked if it was tried. My belief is most of the younger generation of indigenous people couldn't give a stuff about the elders and the traditions.

I base this on the 2 or so yrs I was involved in a program called "Sentenced to a Job" and it was designed to get non violent criminal to start to get ready for the outside world by being allowed out on day release to get used to the idea of working. You could get 3 different types of people under the scheme - Salt water people ( mostly aboriginals from the island areas ) - Desert people ( mostly aboriginals from the interior) and the white fellas. They wouldn't mix them as they would argue.

I always got the aboringinals , and every time I would sit down with them at lunch and chat , I would ask if they were looking forward to going back on country - the younger ones ( Under 25ish ) weren't interested in going back , they liked the idea of the city life and everything that went with it. Nothing to do on country, too boring etc etc . I employed them over about 2 yrs and sadly it didn't seem to be much different no matter who I spoke to or where they were from. The program fell apart due to admin issues so I no longer use them. Google the program if you want to find out more.

I am all for people living where they want , and if that's On Country in whatever part of this great land, so be it. But its 1 country and 1 law , and that applies if your white , black , yellow , pink or whatever your religion may be.

That's how I see it from what I have seen and done in my life , and if I am wrong then I would like to see the Elders start to get out there and start doing some of what you speak. Most of the outspoken so called leaders I have come across in my time speak out about all and sundry then get a job in Canberra and do absolutely stuff all except enjoy the gravy train like all the others do.

Cheers Ean

[Pickles2]

Sorry Mick , maybe 30 yrs ago that may have worked if it was tried. My belief is most of the younger generation of indigenous people couldn't give a stuff about the elders and the traditions.

I base this on the 2 or so yrs I was involved in a program called "Sentenced to a Job" and it was designed to get non violent criminal to start to get ready for the outside world by being allowed out on day release to get used to the idea of working. You could get 3 different types of people under the scheme - Salt water people ( mostly aboriginals from the island areas ) - Desert people ( mostly aboriginals from the interior) and the white fellas. They wouldn't mix them as they would argue.

I always got the aboringinals , and every time I would sit down with them at lunch and chat , I would ask if they were looking forward to going back on country - the younger ones ( Under 25ish ) weren't interested in going back , they liked the idea of the city life and everything that went with it. Nothing to do on country, too boring etc etc . I employed them over about 2 yrs and sadly it didn't seem to be much different no matter who I spoke to or where they were from. The program fell apart due to admin issues so I no longer use them. Google the program if you want to find out more.

I am all for people living where they want , and if that's On Country in whatever part of this great land, so be it. But its 1 country and 1 law , and that applies if your white , black , yellow , pink or whatever your religion may be.

That's how I see it from what I have seen and done in my life , and if I am wrong then I would like to see the Elders start to get out there and start doing some of what you speak. Most of the outspoken so called leaders I have come across in my time speak out about all and sundry then get a job in Canberra and do absolutely stuff all except enjoy the gravy train like all the others do.

Cheers Ean
BRILLIANT post.......and based on reality.
Thank You, Pickles.

[Zeros]

Well said, I agree 100%.
Pickles.

I disagree 100%

[Zeros]

Less than 200 years ago, the continent currently called Australia didn't have one name. This continent has always comprised more than 200 distinct nations and languages, similar to Europe or Africa. ...It still is if you care to listen and learn.

The notion of one country (the past 100 years or so) is a veneer and frankly quite ridiculous in the context of 60,000 + years as a multinational continent.

We all belong here, but it's our diversity which makes us interesting, not our homogenisation to some kind of concocted immature culture based on neo-colonial narcissism.

[trout1105]

I have done maintenance work on remote settlements in the NT and have also worked on Melville Island with a group of Aboriginals on the Work for the Dole programme.
Ean is spot on the money with his post and as he has had first hand experience with this (Unlike the vast majority here) He actually Knows what he is talking about So people please get your Facts right before hitting the keyboard people.
Well said Ean [thumbsupbig]

[DiscoMick]

Sorry Mick , maybe 30 yrs ago that may have worked if it was tried. My belief is most of the younger generation of indigenous people couldn't give a stuff about the elders and the traditions.

I base this on the 2 or so yrs I was involved in a program called "Sentenced to a Job" and it was designed to get non violent criminal to start to get ready for the outside world by being allowed out on day release to get used to the idea of working. You could get 3 different types of people under the scheme - Salt water people ( mostly aboriginals from the island areas ) - Desert people ( mostly aboriginals from the interior) and the white fellas. They wouldn't mix them as they would argue.

I always got the aboringinals , and every time I would sit down with them at lunch and chat , I would ask if they were looking forward to going back on country - the younger ones ( Under 25ish ) weren't interested in going back , they liked the idea of the city life and everything that went with it. Nothing to do on country, too boring etc etc . I employed them over about 2 yrs and sadly it didn't seem to be much different no matter who I spoke to or where they were from. The program fell apart due to admin issues so I no longer use them. Google the program if you want to find out more.

I am all for people living where they want , and if that's On Country in whatever part of this great land, so be it. But its 1 country and 1 law , and that applies if your white , black , yellow , pink or whatever your religion may be.

That's how I see it from what I have seen and done in my life , and if I am wrong then I would like to see the Elders start to get out there and start doing some of what you speak. Most of the outspoken so called leaders I have come across in my time speak out about all and sundry then get a job in Canberra and do absolutely stuff all except enjoy the gravy train like all the others do.

Cheers Ean
That's very interesting experience and thanks for sharing it, but it's a white fellas scheme and it certainly illustrates the breakdown of the tribal system.

[Zeros]

You still don't "get it", In Australia we ALL belong to the same Tribe.

I don't belong to your tribe man. Sounds Land Rovers are all we have in common.

[Ean Austral]

That's very interesting experience and thanks for sharing it, but it's a white fellas scheme and it certainly illustrates the breakdown of the tribal system.

That's proberly the most racist comment in this thread . I actually thought it was a scheme designed to help people of all walks of life to break the cycle and give them a chance to improve their circumstances if that is the path they wanted to follow.
No one was forced to work - they weren't dragged out in chains , but they were paid the award wage for the job they were doing and it got them out of the prison system which a lot of people seem to think is what is dragging people down.

From where I sit , the only people who are breaking down the so called tribal system are the younger members of the tribe. That's just my view of course and I have no issue's with people not agreeing with it.

Cheers Ean

[Zeros]

I have done maintenance work on remote settlements in the NT and have also worked on Melville Island with a group of Aboriginals on the Work for the Dole programme.
Ean is spot on the money with his post and as he has had first hand experience with this (Unlike the vast majority here) He actually Knows what he is talking about So people please get your Facts right before hitting the keyboard people.
Well said Ean [thumbsupbig]

Presuming a lack of knowledge or experience is never a good idea. ...Almost 25 years of intercultural project development experience across the continent here.

[DiscoMick]

,
No, the problem is "they" can't do it,.....and this is the problem which has been proven time & time again, "they" can't do it, and there are many of "them" that admit to this,....but some, with more "influence", overwhelm these well meaning people, with the result that the situation is not improved at all, but is getting worse, despite ever increasing dollars thrown at it.
A recent survey about the amount of dollars (most in Aussie) thrown at Northern Australian communities, revealed absolutely the worst results per dollar in Aussie,....dollars is not the answer,... ,I know what is,....I would like to hear the views of others before I reveal.
Finally, just have to say, there are views from absolutely opposite "sides" here,....I know mine are different from many, so I'd just like to commend all members from getting "personal" against each other. I disagree vigorously with some comments on this thread,.....I hope respectably.
Pickles.
It is good to be able to discuss this so responsibly. It's the way it should be around a campfire. We don't have to agree, but we should respect each others' right to disagree.

[trout1105]

I don't belong to your tribe man. Sounds Land Rovers are all we have in common.

So you are Not an Australian then? and you don't think that ALL Australians are citizens of this country or members of that tribe "Australians" we belong to and we proudly call ourselves "Australians" by being a part of that "Tribe".
All this labelling of different the peoples in this country and wanting different laws for certain groups is only causing division and even hatred.
YES nasty stuff happened in the early days of Australia and for that matter in many other parts of the World at that time But that is in the past and most of us acknowledge that this has happened But dragging it up all the time and trying to hold the rest of the country to ransom over it is Not the way forward.
There are a Great many Australians (and their ancestors) that are living here now that had absolutely Nothing to do with the events of the past So why should these people be held accountable for past events and have to pay and be made feel Guilty for them?
Like I have said on many occasions we are ALL Australians and we all have to abide by the laws of this country End of Story.

[DiscoMick]

That's proberly the most racist comment in this thread . I actually thought it was a scheme designed to help people of all walks of life to break the cycle and give them a chance to improve their circumstances if that is the path they wanted to follow.
No one was forced to work - they weren't dragged out in chains , but they were paid the award wage for the job they were doing and it got them out of the prison system which a lot of people seem to think is what is dragging people down.

From where I sit , the only people who are breaking down the so called tribal system are the younger members of the tribe. That's just my view of course and I have no issue's with people not agreeing with it.

Cheers Ean
Yes, it's certainly true many young people don't want the country life any more and are moving to the cities. That's happening all over Australia of course, not just in indigenous communities.
Of course, there are plenty of success stories among those who have gone off country too, but it doesn't necessarily mean they have cut their ties with country, just like many country kids who move to the city retain links to their place of origin.
But it doesn't change the fact that tribal leaders who are good role models should be supported if the tribe is to maintain its identity. That is happening in some places. We only hear about the problem areas, not the successes.

I read this tonight and thought it interesting.

Meet Alice in Wonderland, an Indigenous AFL-playing tomboy
Meet Alice in Wonderland, an Indigenous AFL-playing tomboy - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-11/alice-in-wonderland-an-indigenous-afl-playing-tomboy/9321670)

[Zeros]

So you are Not an Australian then? and you don't think that ALL Australians are citizens of this country or members of that tribe "Australians" we belong to and we proudly call ourselves "Australians" by being a part of that "Tribe".
All this labelling of different the peoples in this country and wanting different laws for certain groups is only causing division and even hatred.
YES nasty stuff happened in the early days of Australia and for that matter in many other parts of the World at that time But that is in the past and most of us acknowledge that this has happened But dragging it up all the time and trying to hold the rest of the country to ransom over it is Not the way forward.
There are a Great many Australians (and their ancestors) that are living here now that had absolutely Nothing to do with the events of the past So why should these people be held accountable for past events and have to pay and be made feel Guilty for them?
Like I have said on many occasions we are ALL Australians and we all have to abide by the laws of this country End of Story.

Nope. Your interpretations of 'Australia', 'Tribe' and 'All', are entirely different from mine. I'll never be in your tribe.

Vive le difference.

[Zeros]

It's never helpful to generalise. I find it symptomatic of narcissism. The presumption that everyone else should think, act, see, the world like oneself does, is worth growing out of.

[incisor]

IMHO until we all become focussed on whats good for the nation as a whole then nothing will completely reconcile the varied peoples that now call the place home.

sure, the aboriginals were here for a very long time before the europeans etc, but they didn't pop up out of nowhere, they migrated to this land as well and there is some evidence that there was a population here before them i believe....

does 40000+ years make that somehow different ?

my take is there should be one rule for all, thats a pipe dream as we are all aware, because human nature doesnt work that way and there is no way that will ever change.

[Zeros]

IMHO until we all become focussed on whats good for the nation as a whole then nothing will completely reconcile the varied peoples that now call the place home.

sure, the aboriginals were here for a very long time before the europeans etc, but they didn't pop up out of nowhere, they migrated to this land as well and there is some evidence that there was a population here before them i believe.... WHO?

does 40000+ years make that somehow different ? YES.

my take is there should be one rule for all, thats a pipe dream as we are all aware, because human nature doesnt work that way and there is no way that will ever change.

One rule for all = communism.

[incisor]

You don’t know much about communism obviously amongst other things....

[vnx205]

One rule for all = communism.


You don’t know much about communism obviously amongst other things....

If you have read "Animal Farm", you will know that under communism, "all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others".
:)

[DiscoMick]

That's proberly the most racist comment in this thread . I actually thought it was a scheme designed to help people of all walks of life to break the cycle and give them a chance to improve their circumstances if that is the path they wanted to follow.
No one was forced to work - they weren't dragged out in chains , but they were paid the award wage for the job they were doing and it got them out of the prison system which a lot of people seem to think is what is dragging people down.

From where I sit , the only people who are breaking down the so called tribal system are the younger members of the tribe. That's just my view of course and I have no issue's with people not agreeing with it.

Cheers Ean

Yes, you're right, it was a brief and flippant response, as I was engrossed in the tennis, so sorry about that.
What I meant was that we have a national youth problem and the participants in your scheme are examples of that. Society isn't generating the entry level jobs needed to meet the demand because many of those jobs are being automated or exported and not everyone wants to be in hospitality, retail or aged care. Trade training funding has also been slashed and companies and governments aren't creating the apprenticeships that used to exist in the past.
Your scheme is a welcome example of an attempt to break the cycle, as you say, but what we actually need is to go back a step and prevent the cycle. That's easier said than done, of course. The genie is well and truly out of the bottle and can't be put back.
In Aboriginal terms, the past has broken down and is difficult to revive. It can only work if the people involved own the process. Forcing people into a scheme designed in Canberra may not work unless the tribe wants it. This isn't surprising as its also true in wider society. How many outside schemes are being run in our local areas with limited success because the locals haven't embraced them? It's very difficult.
So, it's great that schemes such as yours have been tried and I'm sure some people did benefit. Kudos for having a go.

[bob10]

I don't want to spoil this discussion with facts, but it is worthwhile to have an understanding of where this all started.

The Land - Australian Museum (https://australianmuseum.net.au/indigenous-australia-the-land)

[bob10]

The Mabo judgment was made over the land rights of Torres Strait islanders who have a completely different culture of land ownership to Aboriginals who AFAIK have NO traditional idea of land ownership.

Nevertheless about 50% of Australia has now been gifted to Aboriginals by "progressive" governments and judiciary and other citizens of Australia have been in many cases banned from visiting these places , or requiring permits.

In most cases where land has been given to aboriginals as cleared productive land like operating cattle and sheep stations it has quickly fallen into disrepair causing the "giftees" to return to their life of indolence on the dole.



Regards Philip A

I do not agree with any of those points, although the aboriginal philosophy on land ownership is worthy of debate. It is certainly not aligned to European values . I do agree that most of mainstream Australia does agree with you. For my part, I can give an example of a success story,
regarding aboriginal cattle stations. I'm sure there are more. To validate your claim, can you give example/examples of failures. I am interested in finding out



.Wave Hill

The issue of Aboriginal land rights was first brought to national attention in 1966, when 200 Gurindji stockmen, domestics and their families walked off the Wave Hill cattle station in the Northern Territory demanding better wages and conditions. The strike, led by Vincent Lingiari, was the catalyst for two decades of struggle as Gurindji people battled to regain control of traditional lands and establish their own cattle station.
In 1967, Gurindji people petitioned the Governor-General, claiming 1295 square kilometres of land near Wave Hill. Their claim was rejected, but in 1975, they won a lease for their land. This, along with 90 square kilometres of land voluntarily surrendered by Wave Hill owners, became Dagaragu cattle station.
In 1985, following a recommendation from Justice Toohey of the Aboriginal Land Commission that the Gurindji be granted traditional land adjacent to Dagaragu, the Gurindji lease was converted to freehold.
The decision was an important milestone in the land rights struggle - as was Dagaragu, the first Aboriginal owned and managed cattle station.


Noonkanbah
"To expect us to tell you everything in our Law in one day is arrogant. The State Government has not given us a proper hearing... Instead of talking you should have been listening; instead of assuming you had all the knowledge, you should have been trying to learn."
Yungngora Community letter to Premier Court, Western Australia.

In 1971 the Yungngora people employed on Noonkanbah station walked off in protest over poor pay and conditions. Then in 1976, the Aboriginal Land Fund Commission bought Noonkanbah station for the Yungngora community, and the work of revitalising the station under Aboriginal management was begun.
In May 1978, the Yungngora community learned that an exploration company was intending to drill on areas sacred to them. The Yungngora people offered to show drillers alternative sites from the sacred areas. This was refused.
The Western Australian Government was determined that the exploration should proceed and claimed that the religious beliefs of the Yungngora had been "trumped up" or inspired by outside influences.
After court action by the Aboriginal Legal Service, the mining company was required to protect the sacred places. When this was not done satisfactorily, the community blocked access. Elders used media coverage of the blockade to explain their religious beliefs and the importance of the sites. In April 1980, the drillers were finally forced to leave the site.
In August 1981, the Western Australian Government enforced, by law, its rights to oil exploration drilling. The Government provided a heavy police escort so that drilling could continue in the area of the sacred site. The Yungngora resisted peacefully but in vain. Many were arrested and the drilling went ahead.
No oil was discovered.

[PhilipA]

OK,
Kulumburu was run as a Catholic mission for many years and aboriginals supplied with modest housing by the mission and employed as stockmen on the working cattle station.
The WA government sent lawyers to tell the people they were being exploited by the Catholic Church. Subsequently the houses supplied by the mission were torn down and replaced by much more grandiose houses.

When I visited a few years ago there was no farming activity that I could see, youth was living on the dole. A sign in the Aboriginal owned supermarket prohibited kids of school age from the supermarket because of shoplifting, change was given in packs of cards.

We waited at the counter for work to resume at 2pm after lunch and at about 2.30 an islander woman who was the wife of the manager turned up and proceeded to have a heated argument with the staff who then dribbled in and should have resumed work at 2.00PM. We had to buy a permit for AFAIR $40 to visit the camping ground at Honeymoon Bay.

There was a sign in the office saying "pay $1500 per years in rent and maintenance will be done on houses" which indicated to me that no rent was paid.
I entered the Mission store and conversed with the volunteers who pointed out a girl who had been seen to have potential and was given a fully funded scholarship to a Catholic High School in Perth. She lasted six months before her parents demanded she return home as they missed her. She was wandering around with nothing to do.

Gumbanan at One arm Point Cape Leveque
As we were takin a rigid inflatable to the horizontal waterfall which left from Cooljaman we camped at Gumbanan retreat which is aboriginal run.
We were charged $38 per night AFAIR. The toilets were 1.5Km from the campsite and there were cold showers which had been built for an aboriginal convention some time earlier and not maintained.
We found a campsite and then found human faeces strewn about in many places around our campsite which I proceeded to bury. There was a deep sand bog adjacent to the campsite.

The aboriginal manager to his credit gave spear lessons to kids , however the lack of basic appreciation of hygiene was appalling.
It may have changed since our visit about 5 years ago but my overriding impression is that the traditional owners wanted the money but were unwilling to do anything for it. 4x4 Australia recently listed it as a top campsite so maybe it has changed.

I have numerous other examples of aboriginal lassitude but those are a couple that stick out in my memory.

I have worked with a Wyadjri man to try and build a cultural centre for work by inmates of Bathurst jail only to be frustrated first by his insistence that his wife and daughter be placed on the board with no experience or qualifications and secondly by the attitude of the Wyadjri land council who vetoed his proposal because it might conflict with another planned centre in Dubbo. Also at issue was the fact that his mother was not Wyadjri so he was not considered to be full Wyadjri.

IMHO the greatest enemy that aboriginals have is other aboriginals not the rest of the population.






Regards Philip A

[tact]

One rule for all = communism.

Not sure if you take your own advice?



It's never helpful to generalise. I find it symptomatic of narcissism. The presumption that everyone else should think, act, see, the world like oneself does, is worth growing out of.

[trout1105]

Nope. Your interpretations of 'Australia', 'Tribe' and 'All', are entirely different from mine. I'll never be in your tribe.

Vive le difference.

I Never said that everyone has to act the same and have the same beliefs and lifestyle.
What I am saying is that we are ALL Australians and we should all treat each other equally regardless of race, colour, creed or religion But we are ALL obliged to follow the rule of Law.
If you are not of a similar mindset then I wouldn't want you in our "tribe" anyway.

[Zeros]

If you have read "Animal Farm", you will know that under communism, "all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others".
:)

Indeed, which is why communism - the utopian idea of one rule for all - doesn't work.

[Zeros]

I Never said that everyone has to act the same and have the same beliefs and lifestyle.
What I am saying is that we are ALL Australians and we should all treat each other equally regardless of race, colour, creed or religion But we are ALL obliged to follow the rule of Law.
If you are not of a similar mindset then I wouldn't want you in our "tribe" anyway.

Yes now you're beginning to make sense. Agreed.

However, while this philosophy is generally good, too often it assumes that all are starting from a point of equality and fails to recognise that this rule of law is made by certain dominant factions of the community in their favour - Native Title being a case in point, whereby the pastoralists rights prevail over Aboriginal rights and the onus is on Aboriginal people to prove their ongoing unbroken connection to that land, despite being forcibly removed previously by colonial interests.

[Zeros]

Not sure if you take your own advice?

Yes thanks Neil, which is exactly why I advocate for diversity.

[Zeros]

The only people that Land has been 'gifted to' are colonists who have received land grants, miners who have received mining grants or governments.

Land returned to Aboriginal people has not been 'gifted', it has been returned. What they do with their land is entirely up to them (within the law), just as it is for you and me.

[tact]

[...]
If you are not of a similar mindset then I wouldn't want you in our "tribe" anyway.

The corollary of that is of course "I wouldn't want to be a member of any club that would admit me as a member" - [paraphrasing something usually attributed to Groucho Marx]

[PhilipA]

The only people that Land has been 'gifted to' are colonists who have received land grants, miners who have received mining grants or governments.

Land returned to Aboriginal people has not been 'gifted', it has been returned. What they do with their land is entirely up to them (within the law), just as it is for you and me.

Could you please show me the title deeds of the land to which you refer.

ALL civilized countries of the World have a system of title deeds to show ownership off land and buildings.
The land of Czech citizens was restored to them after communism destructed , because they had their title deeds.

The land and buildings of East Germans were similarly returned to their rightful owners if they could produce the deeds.

Unfortunately it was not enough to say, "my dad owned that building" to gain rightful title which directly affected a friend of mine whose father owned a building in East Berlin. His sister destroyed the deeds when the father died.
Tough titty for them.

Or are you suggesting that aboriginals really didn't have a civilized society where land title was recognized. Only in Australia is it sufficient to say , Oh my ancestors wandered this land so it really is theirs. Oh Come now.

Regards Philip A

[trout1105]

Could you please show me the title deeds of the land to which you refer.

ALL civilized countries of the World have a system of title deeds to show ownership off land and buildings.
The land of Czech citizens was restored to them after communism destructed , because they had their title deeds.

The land and buildings of East Germans were similarly returned to their rightful owners if they could produce the deeds.

Unfortunately it was not enough to say, "my dad owned that building" to gain rightful title which directly affected a friend of mine whose father owned a building in East Berlin. His sister destroyed the deeds when the father died.
Tough titty for them.

Or are you suggesting that aboriginals really didn't have a civilized society where land title was recognized. Only in Australia is it sufficient to say , Oh my ancestors wandered this land so it really is theirs. Oh Come now.

Regards Philip A

My ancestors wandered the lands of Scandinavia at one time, Does this give me claim to these lands now? [bigwhistle]

[Classic88]

Only in Australia is it sufficient to say , Oh my ancestors wandered this land so it really is theirs. Oh Come now.



By no means is it only in Australia but (by and large) only in Australia has self-determination of indigenous peoples in former colonies of the British Empire (as per the Atlantic Charter of 1941) still not been fully achieved. It's literally one of the principles on which WW2 was fought.

[DiscoMick]

My ancestors wandered the lands of Scandinavia at one time, Does this give me claim to these lands now? [bigwhistle]

Do you qualify as a traditional landowner under this definition?

Traditional Landowners The Land Rights Act defines ‘traditional landowners’ as a group of Aboriginals who have “primary spiritual responsibility” for sacred sites on a piece of land, and who are entitled by Aboriginal tradition to hunt and gather on that land. Traditional landowners are the key decision makers for their land, although Land Councils must also talk to affected communities.

The Aboriginal Land Rights Act | Central Land Council, Australia (https://www.clc.org.au/index.php?/articles/info/the-aboriginal-land-rights-act/)

[DiscoMick]

I don't want to spoil this discussion with facts, but it is worthwhile to have an understanding of where this all started.

The Land - Australian Museum (https://australianmuseum.net.au/indigenous-australia-the-land)

Thanks for posting it. That's an excellent summary.

[donh54]

Could you please show me the title deeds of the land to which you refer.

ALL civilized countries of the World have a system of title deeds to show ownership off land and buildings.
The land of Czech citizens was restored to them after communism destructed , because they had their title deeds.

The land and buildings of East Germans were similarly returned to their rightful owners if they could produce the deeds.

Unfortunately it was not enough to say, "my dad owned that building" to gain rightful title which directly affected a friend of mine whose father owned a building in East Berlin. His sister destroyed the deeds when the father died.
Tough titty for them.

Or are you suggesting that aboriginals really didn't have a civilized society where land title was recognized. Only in Australia is it sufficient to say , Oh my ancestors wandered this land so it really is theirs. Oh Come now.

Regards Philip A


Our feelings about ownership have very deep roots. Most animal life has a sense of territory – a place to be at home and to defend. Indeed, this territoriality seems to be associated with the oldest part of the brain and forms a biological basis for our sense of property. It is closely associated with our sense of security and our instinctual “fight or flight” responses, all of which gives a powerful emotional dimension to our experience of ownership. Yet this biological basis does not determine the form that territoriality takes in different cultures.

Humans, like many of our primate cousins, engage in group (as well as individual) territoriality. Tribal groups saw themselves connected to particular territories – a place that was “theirs.” Yet their attitude towards the land was very different from ours. They frequently spoke of the land as their parent or as a sacred being, on whom they were dependent and to whom they owed loyalty and service. Among the aborigines of Australia, individuals would inherit a special relationship to sacred places, but rather than “ownership,” this relationship was more like being owned by the land. This sense of responsibility extended to ancestors and future generations as well, who would inherit, and "own" the stories associated with that place. The Ashanti of Ghana say, “Land belongs to a vast family of whom many are dead, a few are living and a countless host are still unborn.”

For most of these tribal peoples, their sense of “land ownership” involved only the right to use and to exclude people of other tribes (but usually not members of their own). If there were any private rights, these were usually subject to review by the group and would cease if the land was no longer being used. The sale of land was either not even a possibility or not permitted. As for inheritance, every person had use rights simply by membership in the group, so a growing child would not have to wait until some other individual died (or pay a special fee) to gain full access to the land.

Farming made the human relationship to the land more concentrated. Tilling the land, making permanent settlements, etc., all meant a greater direct investment in a particular place. Yet this did not lead immediately to our present ideas of ownership. As best as is known, early farming communities continued to experience an intimate spiritual connection to the land, and they often held land in common under the control of a village council. This pattern has remained in many peasant communities throughout the world.

It was not so much farming directly, but the larger-than-tribal societies that could be based on farming that led to major changes in attitudes towards the land. Many of the first civilizations were centered around a supposedly godlike king, and it was a natural extension to go from the tribal idea that “the land belongs to the gods” to the idea that all of the kingdom belongs to the god-king. Since the god-king was supposed to personify the whole community, this was still a form of community ownership, but now personalized. Privileges of use and control of various types were distributed to the ruling elite on the basis of custom and politics.

As time went on, land took on a new meaning for these ruling elites. It became an abstraction, a source of power and wealth, a tool for other purposes. The name of the game became conquer, hold, and extract the maximum in tribute. The human-human struggle for power gradually came to be the dominant factor shaping the human relationship to the land. This shift from seeing the land as a sacred mother to merely a commodity required deep changes throughout these cultures such as moving the gods and sacred beings into the sky where they could conveniently be as mobile as the ever changing boundaries of these empires.

The idea of private land ownership developed as a second step – partly in reaction to the power of the sovereign and partly in response to the opportunities of a larger-than- village economy. In the god-king societies, the privileges of the nobility were often easily withdrawn at the whim of the sovereign, and the importance of politics and raw power as the basis of ownership was rarely forgotten. To guard their power, the nobility frequently pushed for greater legal/customary recognition of their land rights. In the less centralized societies and in the occasional democracies and republics of this period, private ownership also developed in response to the breakdown of village cohesiveness. In either case, private property permitted the individual to be a “little king” of his/her own lands, imitating and competing against the claims of the state.

The above changes, occurring as they did over thousands of years, have become entrenched in our way of thinking, absorbed as you grew from your mothers breast, to make your own way out in the world, and thence to continue the spread of those customs and lores to your own children.

Is it such a difficult stretch of your imagination, to realise that there are people in this world to whom that is not the customary way of life? That they absorb a whole different set of customs and lore as they grow? Like the Yolgnu people, who saw the cattle come into their tribal lands, and decided (just as countless other native tribes did before and since), "Look, the Great Earth Mother has brought us a new animal! Let's see if it's good to eat!" Having no concept of anyone "owning" the animals that were grazing the bush, they had no idea that what they were doing was about to bring death and destruction upon their loved ones.
If you enter someone elses home, or travel to another country, it is only common decency, and good manners, to try to understand at least some of their customs, so as not to appear to be a boorish dickhead. To be fair, quite a few of the early settlers tried, with varying degrees of success, to gain a better understanding of the Aboriginal society. Sadly they were swamped by the hordes of get-rich-quick schemers, bible-thumpers and bureaucrats.

The answer is not simple, because the problem is not simple. The first step in overcoming the problem is to stop trying to apportion blame for past deeds, and start looking to the future. Sadly, there is very limited hope for many whom are already in the depths of this national disgrace, but shouldn't we at least be starting to look for ways to assist the next generation, rather than just re-hashing old things that didn't work already?

[Zeros]

Anyone who keeps using their own cultural paradigm to judge others and expect them to conform to their way of seeing the world is perpetuating the problem.

EG: Of course Aboriginal people don't have written title deeds to their land in the form you are suggesting they should have. ...Seriously?

There are however cases whereby significant works of art have represented Aboriginal title.
EG: The Ngurrara Canvas, which was recently unfurled in home country 20 years after it was painted for a native title case in 1996.

Giant Indigenous artwork returns to Australian desert after 20 years - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-23/giant-historic-artwork-ngurrara-canvas-returned-home/9074446?pfmredir=sm)

[bob10]

My ancestors wandered the lands of Scandinavia at one time, Does this give me claim to these lands now? [bigwhistle]

Perhaps the only thing you will inherit from your Scandinavian ancestors is Dupuytren's syndrome. Welcome to the club.

[bob10]

OK,
Kulumburu was run as a Catholic mission for many years and aboriginals supplied with modest housing by the mission and employed as stockmen on the working cattle station.
The WA government sent lawyers to tell the people they were being exploited by the Catholic Church. Subsequently the houses supplied by the mission were torn down and replaced by much more grandiose houses.

When I visited a few years ago there was no farming activity that I could see, youth was living on the dole. A sign in the Aboriginal owned supermarket prohibited kids of school age from the supermarket because of shoplifting, change was given in packs of cards.

We waited at the counter for work to resume at 2pm after lunch and at about 2.30 an islander woman who was the wife of the manager turned up and proceeded to have a heated argument with the staff who then dribbled in and should have resumed work at 2.00PM. We had to buy a permit for AFAIR $40 to visit the camping ground at Honeymoon Bay.

There was a sign in the office saying "pay $1500 per years in rent and maintenance will be done on houses" which indicated to me that no rent was paid.
I entered the Mission store and conversed with the volunteers who pointed out a girl who had been seen to have potential and was given a fully funded scholarship to a Catholic High School in Perth. She lasted six months before her parents demanded she return home as they missed her. She was wandering around with nothing to do.

Gumbanan at One arm Point Cape Leveque
As we were takin a rigid inflatable to the horizontal waterfall which left from Cooljaman we camped at Gumbanan retreat which is aboriginal run.
We were charged $38 per night AFAIR. The toilets were 1.5Km from the campsite and there were cold showers which had been built for an aboriginal convention some time earlier and not maintained.
We found a campsite and then found human faeces strewn about in many places around our campsite which I proceeded to bury. There was a deep sand bog adjacent to the campsite.

The aboriginal manager to his credit gave spear lessons to kids , however the lack of basic appreciation of hygiene was appalling.
It may have changed since our visit about 5 years ago but my overriding impression is that the traditional owners wanted the money but were unwilling to do anything for it. 4x4 Australia recently listed it as a top campsite so maybe it has changed.


IMHO the greatest enemy that aboriginals have is other aboriginals not the rest of the population.






Regards Philip A

Nothing you have quoted here is any different from disadvantaged white communities. But thank you for posting. Your last comment, is true. When aboriginals gain the education, and confidence, not to be ripped off by white carpet baggers, things might change. However, it seems to me that
there is an industry , ripping off the billions of dollars going into aboriginal affairs, and I believe that gullible, or greedy aboriginal managers of some of these assets are taking advantage of this. No different from any other human, really. They have just evolved, and learned quick.

[Ean Austral]

Yes, you're right, it was a brief and flippant response, as I was engrossed in the tennis, so sorry about that.
What I meant was that we have a national youth problem and the participants in your scheme are examples of that. Society isn't generating the entry level jobs needed to meet the demand because many of those jobs are being automated or exported and not everyone wants to be in hospitality, retail or aged care. Trade training funding has also been slashed and companies and governments aren't creating the apprenticeships that used to exist in the past.
Your scheme is a welcome example of an attempt to break the cycle, as you say, but what we actually need is to go back a step and prevent the cycle. That's easier said than done, of course. The genie is well and truly out of the bottle and can't be put back.
In Aboriginal terms, the past has broken down and is difficult to revive. It can only work if the people involved own the process. Forcing people into a scheme designed in Canberra may not work unless the tribe wants it. This isn't surprising as its also true in wider society. How many outside schemes are being run in our local areas with limited success because the locals haven't embraced them? It's very difficult.
So, it's great that schemes such as yours have been tried and I'm sure some people did benefit. Kudos for having a go.

Gday Mick,

Sadly for the aboriginal people , the only scheme's that seem to be put up are " white man scheme's " I don't see the so called Captain's picks and the rest of the great saviours of the indigenous people , that go into politics coming up with plans to fix these problems and stop the cycle before it starts. With the younger generation of all walks of life wanting to move away from their traditional land or home , we have to adopt systems that cover all people regardless of colour, religion or even gender these days, its just the evolution of life.

I don't have the answers , but I would rather try something than just write it off because it was thought up in a different place or by someone of a different colour. I don't think just throwing endless amounts of $$ at something and hoping it will go away is the answer either.

I would just like to see more effort from the leaders of the indigenous people coming forward and trying to make a difference. I hope I am wrong and it is happening , but from where I sit I am not seeing it. Its very easy to blame someone else for your problems, ie, governments , Lawyers , etc etc , but its leadership and direction that's needed and it needs to come from all sides not just 1.

I don't believe in dwelling on the past , sure accept it and try and improve it and certainly don't make the same mistakes , but to think that the indigenous people could go back to how life was 1000 , 10,000 20,000 yrs ago is crazy. I am led to believe the oldest culture on the planet , its a culture we should embrace and help it move forward , and that includes the people who want to live on country and those who want to become city slickers. It should be about smarter business plans if the remote communities are trying things and they are failing. When it comes to remote indigenous communities we shouldn't be having a competition about "show what place was a success , and what wasn't " , we should be finding out why 1 succeeded and what caused the other to fail. The idea is to make the community support itself and give people back some pride and dignity that they are achieving something , not just labelled as a bunch of Dole bludgers.

I don't think this will happen in my life time and prolly pipe dream stuff but I hope it does. Personally I don't see reconciliation ever happening in the current climate because I believe there are parties on both sides that don't want it to, as the gravy train is just to good in its current form.

Cheers Ean

[Zeros]

Aboriginal leaders are constantly showing the way, but then they are constantly disrespected by paternslistic governments and their majority voters. Examples are very easy to find if you care to inform yourself.

One of the latest shameful examples:
Indigenous recognition: Turnbull Government's rejection of Uluru Statement from the heart indefensible - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-27/decision-to-reject-uluru-statement-is-indefensible/9093408)

Saying 'I don't have the answers', 'it probably won't change in my lifetime' and 'we need to make them' do this or that is paternalistic, disrespectful and just a cop out. ...Every single person has the ability to start with the basics, listen to Aboriginal people's perspectives with an open mind, accept that many people have different world views than your own and that is something to cherish and learn from, write a letter to your local member, the PM, don't vote for any party that doesn't respect Aboriginal people. We can all take responsibility for our own actions and words. It all helps (or hinders).

[Ean Austral]

Presuming a lack of knowledge or experience is never a good idea. ...Almost 25 years of intercultural project development experience across the continent here.


Aboriginal leaders are constantly showing the way, but then they are constantly disrespected by paternslistic governments and their majority voters. Examples are very easy to find if you care to inform yourself.

One of the latest shameful examples:
Indigenous recognition: Turnbull Government's rejection of Uluru Statement from the heart indefensible - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-27/decision-to-reject-uluru-statement-is-indefensible/9093408)

Saying 'I don't have the answers', 'it probably won't change in my lifetime' and 'we need to make them' do this or that is paternalistic, disrespectful and just a cop out. ...Every single person has the ability to start with the basics, listen to Aboriginal people's perspectives with an open mind, accept that many people have different world views than your own and that is something to cherish and learn from, write a letter to your local member, the PM, don't vote for any party that doesn't respect Aboriginal people. We can all take responsibility for our own actions and words. It all helps (or hinders).

Presuming a lack of knowledge or experience is never a good idea. - From one of your previous posts....

You need to heed some of your own advice..

Cheers Ean

[trout1105]

Presuming a lack of knowledge or experience is never a good idea. ...Almost 25 years of intercultural project development experience across the continent here.

In what capacity and was your work privately funded or publicly funded ?

[bob10]

Gday Mick,

Sadly for the aboriginal people , the only scheme's that seem to be put up are " white man scheme's " I don't see the so called Captain's picks and the rest of the great saviours of the indigenous people , that go into politics coming up with plans to fix these problems and stop the cycle before it starts. With the younger generation of all walks of life wanting to move away from their traditional land or home , we have to adopt systems that cover all people regardless of colour, religion or even gender these days, its just the evolution of life.

I don't have the answers , but I would rather try something than just write it off because it was thought up in a different place or by someone of a different colour. I don't think just throwing endless amounts of $$ at something and hoping it will go away is the answer either.



Cheers Ean

Well written, Ean. I have always thought the starting point would be a Royal Commission into billions of dollars thrown at the aboriginal " problem ", a forensic audit going back to square one, tasked with finding out what may have worked, and why, and what didn't, and where the money went. And why aboriginal communities are not much better off now, than in the beginning, or which communities have prospered, and why. For this to work, there would have to be an amnesty given to all players, if they come to the Commission and tell all about any corruption they know about. However I feel there are too many fingers in the pie, and the pie tastes too good. The only way to quell those suspicions is to bring it all out in the open. Pigs might fly, I guess.

[Zeros]

The money isn't 'thrown at Aboriginal people' - it's generally thrown at government departments which squander it without proper consultation or empowering people to help themselves.

id like to see a royal commission into defence and mandatory detention expenditure.

[bob10]

The money isn't 'thrown at Aboriginal people' - it's generally thrown at government departments which squander it without proper consultation or empowering people to help themselves.



I thought that was exactly my point. I'm glad you agree. How did you get " people" out of problem?

[Zeros]

I thought that was exactly my point. I'm glad you agree. How did you get " people" out of problem?

The 'problem' is usually rhetoric.

A royal commission would most likely be another waste of money in a similar vein.

It seems we agree the problem is with the poor allocation of resources mostly by non-Aboriginal people. Therefore it's not an 'Aboriginal problem'.

[bob10]

The 'problem' is usually rhetoric.

A royal commission would most likely be another waste of money in a similar vein.

It seems we agree the problem is with the poor allocation of resources mostly by non-Aboriginal people. Therefore it's not an 'Aboriginal problem'.

A play on words. Semantics. If not aboriginal, whose problem is it?

[Zeros]

A play on words. Semantics. If not aboriginal, whose problem is it?

Its all of our problem man. Direct.

[trout1105]

Its all of our problem man. Direct.

To a certain degree YES it is ALL of our problem But until the Aboriginal community starts to take Full responsibility and take charge for their own lives instead of relying on government/private sector handouts and blaming everyone else for their problems then Nothing will change.
Another problem is all the "Leaches" that are bleeding the system for their Own personal gains/agendas need to be Culled from the system A.S.A.P.

[Zeros]

To a certain degree YES it is ALL of our problem But until the Aboriginal community starts to take Full responsibility and take charge for their own lives instead of relying on government/private sector handouts and blaming everyone else for their problems then Nothing will change.
Another problem is all the "Leaches" that are bleeding the system for their Own personal gains/agendas need to be Culled from the system A.S.A.P.

.... Pfffffft I give up.

Back to Land Rovers it is.

[DiscoMick]

To a certain degree YES it is ALL of our problem But until the Aboriginal community starts to take Full responsibility and take charge for their own lives instead of relying on government/private sector handouts and blaming everyone else for their problems then Nothing will change.
Another problem is all the "Leaches" that are bleeding the system for their Own personal gains/agendas need to be Culled from the system A.S.A.P.
I do agree that the ultimate solutions have to come from Aboriginal communities owning the attempts to solve local problems, but keep in mind there has been two centuries of outside interference in these communities and their ability to self-manage has been severely reduced.

[DiscoMick]

No Cookies | Daily Telegraph (https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/tennis-legend-pat-cash-reveals-why-he-wont-be-celebrating-australia-day/news-story/a8736dc9a55c995a87d937383d1258d0)

[Ean Austral]

No Cookies | Daily Telegraph (https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/tennis-legend-pat-cash-reveals-why-he-wont-be-celebrating-australia-day/news-story/a8736dc9a55c995a87d937383d1258d0)

I seen his interview on one of the morning shows. I still have to ask myself why a white mans charity has to go to the communities and get elders back into teaching the young their traditional ways. That's the way he came across on the TV . I hope that isn't the case.

Could you imagine the carry ons the current crop of polies from all parties would be like if you proposed cutting all funding and having a rethink and trying a new approach. There is no political party or anyone in any of the parties capable of getting this overhauled into a functioning system that see's true change for the better. The gutter style politics are now the accepted norm in this country.

Cheers Ean

[V8Ian]

Maybe some of the armchair experts should do some reading before spruiking further.

Dark Emu - Culture and History | Magabala Books (https://www.magabala.com/culture-and-history/dark-emu.html)


Have you read that one Ian?
Did his arguments hold up?
Looks like it would be an interesting read.
Started reading it.
The arguments are supported with logic and evidence.
It's beyond interesting, quite fascinating actually.

[bob10]

Dark Emu is reviewed in Aboriginal History, Volume 38, 2014 , Australian National University.. The review is on page 195. Page 221 has a review of the book, " the aboriginal story of Burke and Wills, the forgotten narrative". Interesting.

http://press-files.anu.edu.au/downloads/press/p308321/pdf/book.pdf'referer=1268

[Toolsman8]

Hey folks. Why is this topic on here .i for one aren't interested in politics. Im interested in land rovers.

[SBD4]

Hey folks. Why is this topic on here .i for one aren't interested in politics. Im interested in land rovers.
This thread is in the General Chat forum where anything short of politics and religion can be discussed - like being around a camp fire.

If you are not interested in non Land Rover chatter then keep yourself to the vehicle specific areas. Here's an index to them:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/the-pinnacles/

[DiscoMick]

Is there politics in this thread?

[SBD4]

Is there politics in this thread?
Nup! If there is it will be removed.

[Chenz]

Went to a movie premier the other night. The film was called Sweet Country and was directed by the same guy that did Samson and Delilah. Stars Bryan Brown and Sam Neil

sweet country trailer - Google Search (https://www.google.com.au/search?q=sweet+country+trailer&oq=sweet+country&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l5.8350j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8)

The brief precis of the movie as as follows:

Sam, a middle-aged Aboriginal man, works for a preacher in the outback of Australia's Northern Territory. When Harry, a bitter war veteran, moves into a neighbouring outpost, the preacher sends Sam and his family to help Harry renovate his cattle yards. But Sam's relationship with the cruel and ill-tempered Harry quickly deteriorates, culminating in a violent shootout in which Sam kills Harry in self-defence. As a result, Sam becomes a wanted criminal for the murder of a white man, and is forced to flee with his wife across the deadly outback, through glorious but harsh desert country. A hunting party led by the local lawman Sergeant Fletcher is formed to track Sam down. But as the true details of the killing start to surface, the community begins to question whether justice is really being served.

Shows a good balance from both sides of the story

[Toolsman8]

What did the Romans ever do for us..lmfao

[Toolsman8]

Ps still intrested in land rovers.

[bob10]

Went to a movie premier the other night. The film was called Sweet Country and was directed by the same guy that did Samson and Delilah. Stars Bryan Brown and Sam Neil

sweet country trailer - Google Search (https://www.google.com.au/search?q=sweet+country+trailer&oq=sweet+country&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l5.8350j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8)

The brief precis of the movie as as follows:

Sam, a middle-aged Aboriginal man, works for a preacher in the outback of Australia's Northern Territory. When Harry, a bitter war veteran, moves into a neighbouring outpost, the preacher sends Sam and his family to help Harry renovate his cattle yards. But Sam's relationship with the cruel and ill-tempered Harry quickly deteriorates, culminating in a violent shootout in which Sam kills Harry in self-defence. As a result, Sam becomes a wanted criminal for the murder of a white man, and is forced to flee with his wife across the deadly outback, through glorious but harsh desert country. A hunting party led by the local lawman Sergeant Fletcher is formed to track Sam down. But as the true details of the killing start to surface, the community begins to question whether justice is really being served.

Shows a good balance from both sides of the story

Thanks for that, but , mate, it is fantasy, not fact.

[Chenz]

Thanks for that, but , mate, it is fantasy, not fact.

Yeah Bob I knew that. I was just pointing it out as I think it gave a fairly good representation of what life was like for folks back in those days.

I worked out in western NSW in the late 70s and saw the good the bad and the ugly on both the black and white community's side of the fence.

Things are a bit better now but still a bloody long way to go.

[incisor]

up front, i have no idea how true this is.... which is why i am asking

a relative i would normally trust, was saying just recently, it is usually the case that if a country has been invaded there is no provision in international law for lands rights for the original occupants

but

if a country is settled then there is provision in international law for land rights for the original occupants


anyone know the facts?

[trout1105]

up front, i have no idea how true this is.... which is why i am asking

a relative i would normally trust, was saying just recently, it is usually the case that if a country has been invaded there is no provision in international law for lands rights for the original occupants

but

if a country is settled then there is provision in international law for land rights for the original occupants


anyone know the facts?

If that is the case then bugger Australia day "Invasion Day" it is then [thumbsupbig][bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf]

[Gordie]

up front, i have no idea how true this is.... which is why i am asking

a relative i would normally trust, was saying just recently, it is usually the case that if a country has been invaded there is no provision in international law for lands rights for the original occupants

but

if a country is settled then there is provision in international law for land rights for the original occupants


anyone know the facts?Exactly what a bloke at work was telling me the other day, he had seen some expert on tv who stated the above...so I suppose it comes down to whether that expert is correct in his interpretation of these things.

[JDNSW]

I should perhaps point out that "international law" has no standing whatever, except to the extent that it is a treaty signed, ratified, and enacted in the legislation of the country involved.

[Eevo]

regardless of the law, the current system has de facto control.
moving forward, what would people like to see? and to what end? changing the date seems trivial.

on the other hand, if people dont want to celebrate the PH, they dont have to.

[trout1105]

I am of the opinion that changing the date/name of the Australia Day PH has More to do with a minority groups ambition to gain political power and influence than anything else.
As far as I am concerned Australia Day is the Most patriotic public holiday of the year and any attempt to ban or demean this date is very Un Australian.

[Classic88]

But what's actually wrong with minority groups wanting more influence and control over their own fate when it creates a more equal society?

“A nation’s greatness is measured by how it treats its weakest members.”

[DiscoMick]

up front, i have no idea how true this is.... which is why i am asking

a relative i would normally trust, was saying just recently, it is usually the case that if a country has been invaded there is no provision in international law for lands rights for the original occupants

but

if a country is settled then there is provision in international law for land rights for the original occupants


anyone know the facts?
That's what the Mabo judgement was about.
The invaders (that's us) claimed the Aboriginals and Torres Strait Islanders had not inhabited the land (terra nullius) but had merely roamed over it and so had no grounds.
The claimants produced numerous evidences of a settled inhabited association going back thousands of years.
The High Court accepted they had a legitimate claim to have inhabited the land and they won.
That's a brief summary. It's worth more reading time.
Australian politics explainer: the Mabo decision and native title (https://theconversation.com/australian-politics-explainer-the-mabo-decision-and-native-title-74147)

[Eevo]

I am of the opinion that changing the date/name of the Australia Day PH has More to do with a minority groups ambition to gain political power and influence than anything else.
As far as I am concerned Australia Day is the Most patriotic public holiday of the year and any attempt to ban or demean this date is very Un Australian.

i agree. changing the date wont make a difference. we'll still celebrate and any day its on will be criticised as oppression day.

[Eevo]

..when it creates a more equal society?

i disagree that it creates a more equal society. so far all its done is drive us apart.

[trout1105]

But what's actually wrong with minority groups wanting more influence and control over their own fate when it creates a more equal society?

“A nation’s greatness is measured by how it treats its weakest members.”

Isn't that exactly what the first settlers did?

[tact]

I am of the opinion that changing the date/name of the Australia Day PH has More to do with a minority groups ambition to gain political power and influence than anything else.
As far as I am concerned Australia Day is the Most patriotic public holiday of the year and any attempt to ban or demean this date is very Un Australian.

When did Australia actually come into being? Would it be more like Federation day?

Wouldn't it be fair to say that before Federation - all we had was a mixed bag of colonies evolving into States and varying borders drawn across an island continent?

Is it a fair poke to suggest that:
- maybe traditional Aboriginals would feel a bond and loyalty to the land but,
- most modern western style societies talk about a bond/loyalty to Country


Whilst the land was around before Federation, is it fair to say that there was no common united Country to which we could all rally patriotically as Australians until after Federation?

[Fatso]

135364

[Classic88]

135364

Well that would be because, to use Germany as an example as it is there, the Germans have actively legislated against anti-semitism whereas Aboriginals remain marginalised and at the edges of Australian society which, as a whole, remains endemically racist.

[DiscoMick]

When did Australia actually come into being? Would it be more like Federation day?

Wouldn't it be fair to say that before Federation - all we had was a mixed bag of colonies evolving into States and varying borders drawn across an island continent?

Is it a fair poke to suggest that:
- maybe traditional Aboriginals would feel a bond and loyalty to the land but,
- most modern western style societies talk about a bond/loyalty to Country


Whilst the land was around before Federation, is it fair to say that there was no common united Country to which we could all rally patriotically as Australians until after Federation?
January 1, 1901. So I think that makes January 1 a great time for Australia Day.
So what if it's already a holiday, that doesn't matter.

[Eevo]

January 1, 1901. So I think that makes January 1 a great time for Australia Day.
So what if it's already a holiday, that doesn't matter.

jan26 is Australia day when the seeds for modern aust were sown
jan1 is federation day when modern Australia bloomed

[incisor]

i like the may 9th option myself....

[Pedro_The_Swift]

it does make more sense than jan26th..

[Ean Austral]

135364

When did we start shaking hands left handed ?[bigrolf]

Cheers Ean

[vnx205]

When did we start shaking hands left handed ?[bigrolf]

Cheers Ean

When we joined the Boy Scouts or Scouts as they are now known.

[Fatso]

When did we start shaking hands left handed ?[bigrolf]

Cheers Ean


Ha Ha did not notice that , at least the yanks are not lefties . [bigsmile][bigsmile][bigrolf]

[Mick_Marsh]

it does make more sense than jan26th..

January 26th has always been the anniversary of the day in 1788 when Captain Arthur Phillip established the first colony of New South Wales.
The first fleet had already made landfall in Botany Bay a few days earlier but that area had been considered unsuitable.
There had already been several settlements established by Europeans since the 1600s but this was the first European colony.

By all means, commemorate Federation Day on the first of January. I do. But you can't change the date Captain (Governor) Phillip established the colony any more than you can change the date you were born.

It seems some have forgotten meanings and the events behind our holidays.

[Eevo]

i like the may 9th option myself....


thankyou comrad incisor
Victory Day is a holiday that commemorates the victory of the Soviet Union over Nazi Germany in the Great Patriotic War. It was first inaugurated in the 16[1] republics of the Soviet Union, following the signing of the German Instrument of Surrender late in the evening on 8 May 1945 (after midnight, thus on 9 May Moscow Time). The Soviet government announced the victory early on 9 May after the signing ceremony in Berlin

[incisor]

thankyou comrad incisor
Victory Day is a holiday that commemorates the victory of the Soviet Union over Nazi Germany in the Great Patriotic War. It was first inaugurated in the 16[1] republics of the Soviet Union, following the signing of the German Instrument of Surrender late in the evening on 8 May 1945 (after midnight, thus on 9 May Moscow Time). The Soviet government announced the victory early on 9 May after the signing ceremony in Berlin

in australia noddy!

it has had a few important events land on it...

[Classic88]

So really 26th Jan only has direct relevance to NSW whereas 1 Jan actually applies to Australia as a whole.

[tact]

January 1, 1901. So I think that makes January 1 a great time for Australia Day.
So what if it's already a holiday, that doesn't matter.

...so we get Jan 2 off in lieu. Make the start of every new year a double celebration.

[Mick_Marsh]

I would like to propose a new public holiday.
22nd August.
We could call it "Possession Day".

It remembers the day, in 1770, when Captain Cook landed in Australia and claimed the whole east coast for Great Britain, naming it "New South Wales".
This actually occurred at Possession Island which would later become part of Queensland.

[Eevo]

so we're going to have 5 new public holidays.
i'm in favour

[Mick_Marsh]

So really 26th Jan only has direct relevance to NSW whereas 1 Jan actually applies to Australia as a whole.
Yep. But New South Wales encompassed the Eastern half of Australia at the time. So it has relevance to Queensland, New South Wales, Australian Capital Territory, half of Northern Territory and half of South Australia.
Oh, almost forgot, and Tasmania.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2018/01/901.jpg
By Golbez - Own work, CC BY-SA 4.0, File:Australia change 1787-04-25.png - Wikimedia Commons (https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=63602275)

[DiscoMick]

I would like to propose a new public holiday.
22nd August.
We could call it "Possession Day".

It remembers the day, in 1770, when Captain Cook landed in Australia and claimed the whole east coast for Great Britain, naming it "New South Wales".
This actually occurred at Possession Island which would later become part of Queensland.
I support a public holiday on August 22 - it's my birthday!

January 26 is the birthday of NSW, but I'm from Queensland, so why would I celebrate the birthday of NSW?

January 1 is the birthday of Australia, so I'd celebrate that.

[martnH]

A*country*is a self-governing political entity. A country is a state. It's based on land. It has geographical boundary. Australia is a country.

A*nation is a tightly-knit group of people that share a common culture or background. I think some (or most) don't regard aboriginals as part of the nation, but only part of the country.

For example all those dual citizen senators are NOT loyal to this country/state but they are very loyal to this nation.


And (I may be wrong) also most believe Australian day is about celebrating this great nation (the history and culture of modern Australian but not the land or the history before first settlement ....

I propose to have a Australian Land day (country day) and a Australian Anglo-Saxon day (national day).

Am I too blunt?.... I mean no offense

[V8Ian]

26th January is also the anniversary of the Rum Rebellion. Mmmmm......rum. [bigwhistle]

[Mick_Marsh]

so we're going to have 5 new public holidays.
i'm in favour
Yea. Me too. What new public holidays. I hope you're not thinking of the establishment of the states.
SA already has "Proclamation Day". The day when South Australia was proclaimed a state. I understand it was a rather hot day on December 28th 1836 down at The Old Gum Tree.
Sadly, the public holiday is usually declared on December 26th. I think it should occur on December 28th.

[Eevo]

whats the date of the birth of aulro?

[Eevo]

Yea. Me too. What new public holidays. I hope you're not thinking of the establishment of the states.


no, i just think we should have more public holidays.
federation day
australia day
discovery day
defender day
annex new zealand day

[Classic88]

whats the date of the birth of aulro?

The 1700s judging by this thread.

[Gordie]

no, i just think we should have more public holidays.
federation day
australia day
discovery day
defender day
annex new zealand dayConsidering that there are more kiwis in Oz than vice versa...and taking into account a good portion of parliament are kiwi citizens....I would say that it is more apt for the national day to portray the annexing by stealth of Oz by Kiwis....and become the same as NZ...Feb 6, Waitangi day. [thumbsupbig]

[Eevo]

Considering that there are more kiwis in Oz than vice versa...and taking into account a good portion of parliament are kiwi citizens....I would say that it is more apt for the national day to portray the annexing by stealth of Oz by Kiwis....and become the same as NZ...Feb 6, Waitangi day. [thumbsupbig]


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2018/01/904.jpg

[gusthedog]

i agree. changing the date wont make a difference. we'll still celebrate and any day its on will be criticised as oppression day.How many Indigenous Australians did you ask in forming that view Eevo?

[gusthedog]

Isn't that exactly what the first settlers did?No. They virtually destroyed a civilisation. Slightly different.

[Eevo]

How many Indigenous Australians did you ask in forming that view Eevo?

several.
they were all born here making them indigenous :)

[Classic88]

Considering that there are more kiwis in Oz than vice versa...and taking into account a good portion of parliament are kiwi citizens....I would say that it is more apt for the national day to portray the annexing by stealth of Oz by Kiwis....and become the same as NZ...Feb 6, Waitangi day. [thumbsupbig]

Interesting point. Although since Waitangi Day commemorates the signing of a treaty officially recognising Maori rights and claims, Australia isn't in a position to do that. In fact Australia is yet to implement its international obligations under the United Nations Declaration of the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.

[Eevo]

Interesting point. Although since Waitangi Day commemorates the signing of a treaty officially recognising Maori rights and claims, Australia isn't in a position to do that. In fact Australia is yet to implement its international obligations under the United Nations Declaration of the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.


so the shouldnt be getting centrelink until its signed?

[Classic88]

so the shouldnt be getting centrelink until its signed?

Rights as Australian Citizens and rights as indigenous peoples are very different. Why are so many Australians seemingly so threatened by that. It seems very insecure.

[Eevo]

Rights as Australian Citizens and rights as indigenous peoples are very different. Why are so many Australians seemingly so threatened by that. It seems very insecure.

they shouldnt be.
yet they seem to get more handouts than the rest of us.

[incisor]

No. They virtually destroyed a civilisation. Slightly different.

not in anyway different to what had been happening in the rest of the world for millennia.

one could say they had it way better than most of the known world for a hell of a lot longer, the truth be told.

one just needs to look at ole blighty itself to see how often that occurred

if you want to go down the invasion route then they are just another defeated nation like just about everyone on the planet before them.

from what I have read, the culture was extremely similar to communism, most things shared, a few elders calling the shots, with punitive measures in place for any of the rest if they were naughty.

I recall the last documented couple (I heard of), coming in from the desert in about 1974. they wanted to be together when younger but the elders banished them for whatever reason, so they lived their lives on their own till they could do so no longer and were taken to where the relatives that kicked them out were living on a station or camp. that didn't last long I believe.

I have no idea what the solution may be, but it needs to be based on equality to have any chance of long term success IMHO

no idea how you achieve that, human nature hasn't come to terms with it yet from what I have seen and continue to witness.

burn away.........

[Classic88]

they shouldnt be.
yet they seem to get more handouts than the rest of us.

That's not actually true. The biggest single welfare cost is pensions, followed by child care and family tax credits.

[Eevo]

if you want to go down the invasion route then they are just another defeated nation like just about everyone on the planet before them.

when was the peace treaty signed?
are we still at war?

thats not going to end well for some.

[Eevo]

That's not actually true. The biggest single welfare cost is pensions, followed by child care and family tax credits.

i should of specified. i was talking about unemployment benefits. but you do have a point. given that they make up 3% of the population, they appear to overrepresent

[DiscoMick]

This person argues the date is unimportant as changing it won't change the underlying problems.
Changing the date won't change Australia's culture of violence

Changing the date won't change Australia's culture of violence | Tony Birch | Opinion | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jan/24/changing-the-date-wont-change-australias-culture-of-violence?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard)

[Ean Austral]

not in anyway different to what had been happening in the rest of the world for millennia.

one could say they had it way better than most of the known world for a hell of a lot longer, the truth be told.

one just needs to look at ole blighty itself to see how often that occurred

if you want to go down the invasion route then they are just another defeated nation like just about everyone on the planet before them.

from what I have read, the culture was extremely similar to communism, most things shared, a few elders calling the shots, with punitive measures in place for any of the rest if they were naughty.

I recall the last documented couple (I heard of), coming in from the desert in about 1974. they wanted to be together when younger but the elders banished them for whatever reason, so they lived their lives on their own till they could do so no longer and were taken to where the relatives that kicked them out were living on a station or camp. that didn't last long I believe.

I have no idea what the solution may be, but it needs to be based on equality to have any chance of long term success IMHO

no idea how you achieve that, human nature hasn't come to terms with it yet from what I have seen and continue to witness.

burn away.........

Careful Inc , I said something similar not that far back and got told it was a cop out.

Funnily I haven't seen 1 person yet have the solution to completely fix the problem , or even how to achieve it so its acceptable to everyone and doesn't involve the waist of millions - proberly even billions of $$. Cause that's about all that's been happening.

Plenty of people seem to find someone to blame , but nothing seems to have changed when it comes to fixing the problems.

Cheers Ean

[incisor]

Plenty of people seem to find someone to blame , but nothing seems to have changed when it comes to fixing the problems.


yep

sadly it is rampant on both sides

heard a university educated indigenous individual on the abc the other day block everything put forward by anyone ringing in that didn't agree with her, by saying but we were here for 60k years. didn't put forward one single positive point that I heard.

[Eevo]

if we ignore the issue it will go away right?


re the lack of a solution, i see the issue is, that all of the solution put forward solve the issue by taking something away from something else. robbing peter to pay paul so to speak.

[DiscoMick]

So here's our chance to vote on a date. January 1 is winning as of now.

Australia Day: If we were to change the date, these are some of our options - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-25/australia-day:-change-the-date-options/9359260)

[DiscoMick]

NZ has an interesting way of celebrating its national day. I particularly liked the bit about throwing dildos at unpopular speakers. [smilebigeye]

New Zealand's Waitangi Day is a very different national celebration to Australia Day - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-25/waitangi-day-very-different-to-australia-day/9357580)

[Mick_Marsh]

So here's our chance to vote on a date. January 1 is winning as of now.

Australia Day: If we were to change the date, these are some of our options - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-25/australia-day:-change-the-date-options/9359260)
Rigged.
There is no option for January 26.

[Mick_Marsh]

January 26 is a day to remember the First Fleet and its contribution to Australia - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-25/australia-day-first-fleet-should-be-remembered-on-january-26/9360398)

[DiscoMick]

The question says, 'If we were to change the date...'

[Gordie]

NZ has an interesting way of celebrating its national day. I particularly liked the bit about throwing dildos at unpopular speakers. [smilebigeye]

New Zealand's Waitangi Day is a very different national celebration to Australia Day - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-25/waitangi-day-very-different-to-australia-day/9357580)As per usual, a few crackpot activists spoil it for the many and get the desired attention...on occasion some Prime Ministers have refused to attend, and I can't say I blame them.

[trout1105]

This particular debate reminds me of this clip from Monty Pythons "The Life of Brian".

monty python and the life of brian, The peoples party - Bing video (https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=monty+python+and+the+life+of+brian%2c+The +peoples+party&view=detail&mid=8AD04DFEC086A9DFF0F98AD04DFEC086A9DFF0F9&FORM=VIRE)

[CraigE]

January 26 is a day to remember the First Fleet and its contribution to Australia - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-25/australia-day-first-fleet-should-be-remembered-on-january-26/9360398)

It is amazing how little historical research is done by the media and reporters. The ships did not arrive on Jan 26th as reported, it is the day Phillip proclaimed to settlement of NSW at Port Jackson.
The ships actually arrived between Jan 18-20 and anchored off Botany Bay. Phillip went ashore, deemed it not satisfactory and then set out and found Port Jackson. The ships moved, could not land on the 25th. So on the 26th Commodore Phillip went ashore with a a landing party and made the said proclamation. Between the 27th-29th Jan the convicts, women and children then came ashore. Feb 7th Commodore Phillip was formally appointed Governor and the legal / court system started.
I have yet to hear and reasonable and lucid argument to change the date.
Hurt feelings?? Really? For ancestors you never met or knew? What about the ones killed by their own warring factions?
Well I might have to develop hurt feelings for my Ancestor St Aelphage/Alphage/Alphege (where my surname came from) that was stoned to death, first martyr of Cantebury and the current church is in Parish of Solihull, England, so maybe I should be upset about that and claim Solihull as my own as well as Land Rover. [bigwhistle] Compensation one new RR Vogue per family member per year??

Jan 26th is not invasion day, no invasion occurred, no massacres occurred (the first being some 6 years later in fact) if you can call them that (technically retribution).Yes abhorrent acts occured, but they also occurred on both sides.

Jan 1st date, surely that would be more offensive as the day the Commonwealth of Australia came into being and signifies some of the laws against indigenous occurred. Also conflicts with New Years Day, so why?
Jan 28th why no relevance and could still be offensive as boats still unloading convicts etc.
May 9th Federal govt move to Canberra same as Jan 1st.
May 27th, so now we have to make it about reconciliation week?

Any date picked will be deemed as offensive for some. If we go on believing this there will be a very distorted view on history in the next generation.

[trout1105]

The question says, 'If we were to change the date...'

As with any survey if you bias it correctly you will get the desired result [bigwhistle]

[Eevo]

It is amazing how little historical research is done by the media and reporters. The ships did not arrive on Jan 26th as reported, it is the day Phillip proclaimed to settlement of NSW at Port Jackson.
The ships actually arrived between Jan 18-20 and anchored off Botany Bay. Phillip went ashore, deemed it not satisfactory and then set out and found Port Jackson. The ships moved, could not land on the 25th. So on the 26th Commodore Phillip went ashore with a a landing party and made the said proclamation. Between the 27th-29th Jan the convicts, women and children then came ashore. Feb 7th Commodore Phillip was formally appointed Governor and the legal / court system started.


so public holiday from jan 18th til feb 7th
excellent idea.

[trout1105]

so public holiday from jan 18th til feb 7th
excellent idea.

Good Lord Evo, Get it right.
Everyone knows that they came ashore in landing craft armed to the hilt with artillery cover supplied by the first fleet and that they massacred the aboriginal defenders on the beach head on this day of "Invasion" [bigwhistle]

[CraigE]

so public holiday from jan 18th til feb 7th
excellent idea.
Sounds good to me, but you will have to change your signature line to "Commodore Phillips ship bring all the lads to NSW"

[Eevo]

Sounds good to me, but you will have to change your signature line to "Commodore Phillips ship bring all the lads to NSW"

hold my beer

[101RRS]

On 22 August 1770 up on Possession Island just west of Cape York, Captain Cook claimed the eastern coast of New Holland for Britain and took possession, renaming it New South Wales.

The 26th of January 1788 was really just a flag raising ceremony - more proclaiming the colony rather than claiming the land so if the date has to be moved then I pick 22 August.

Garry

[CraigE]

On 22 August 1770 up on Possession Island just west of Cape York, Captain Cook claimed the eastern coast of New Holland for Britain and took possession, renaming it New South Wales.

The 26th of January 1788 was really just a flag raising ceremony - more proclaiming the colony rather than claiming the land so if the date has to be moved then I pick 22 August.

Garry

Yes but the difference was until officially proclaimed and a settlement created any other country could still come and claim it as long as they set up a colony. What the French actually intended to do.

[DiscoMick]

On 22 August 1770 up on Possession Island just west of Cape York, Captain Cook claimed the eastern coast of New Holland for Britain and took possession, renaming it New South Wales.

The 26th of January 1788 was really just a flag raising ceremony - more proclaiming the colony rather than claiming the land so if the date has to be moved then I pick 22 August.

Garry
I'd be happy to have a public holiday on my birthday August 22, but as Cook only claimed the East Coast, the WA brigade might feel a bit left out.

Maybe we could just pick a date at random and call it, 'Why are we here?' day.

[jspyle]

Why not make it the last Monday in January and call it "National 'take a sickie' day"!

[101RRS]

I'd be happy to have a public holiday on my birthday August 22, but as Cook only claimed the East Coast, the WA brigade might feel a bit left out.

Following that logic - then the WA brigade should still feel left out as 26 Jan is all about the east coast.

[CraigE]

Ok bugger it I propose Jan 1st to Dec 31st a day for everyone.

[trout1105]

The WA brigade don't feel "Left Out" at all, We are doing just fine thank you very much.
The Vast majority of all these stupid left wing projects usually emanate from the East Coast anyway as there are far more Civil libertarians and do gooders over there that feel that they need a project to give their miserable lives some sort of meaning regardless of how it effects the lives of other Australians.
I will be celebrating "Australia Day" tomorrow as usual and all the knobheads that don't like it can bang their drums, march and wave their non Australian flags all they like, I don't give a "Rats" because I like the Vast majority of Australians do and will continue to celebrate this day regardless of the minority groups that want to cause division amongst Australians.

[gusthedog]

You guys are unbelievable. Every conversation on this site about Aboriginal people or minorities, the gay and lesbian community or anything else you find easy to remonstrate against ends in a chest beating, right wing, conservative frenzy.

Clearly you haven't thought about one thing a few of us "lefties" have said. Walk a mile in someone else's shoes.

Want to know why there isn't an easy solution to "fixing" issues in Indigenous communities? Because by systematically destroying Aboriginal culture, white people have taken away nearly everything it means to be an Aboriginal person. How many of you were taken away from your parents when you were kids, beaten if you spoke your language, systematically dispossessed of everything that meant anything? No you haven't thought of that because you only think about yourselves.

Some of us on this forum value the opinions of minorities, Aboriginal people, people from the LGTBI community and women. Be dammed if I'm going to keep sitting here being quiet when I keep hearing such bull****.

How about going out and meeting Aboriginal people and asking them what they think about changing the date and what it means to them? Alternatively you'll probably deride me, my comments and any chance of thinking differently as your Neanderthal brains have become unable to show any compassion, virtue or moral integrity whatsoever. Sometimes I'm ashamed to live in the same country as those of such intolerance. The difference between me and others who give up trying to change your bigoted minds? I ain't no wall flower.

Peace out.

[Eevo]

love a good chest beating.

[tact]

[...]Some of us on this forum value the opinions of [...] people from the LGTBI community [...]

Just “LGTBI”? You don’t value Q&A?

i call hypocritical, bigoted & discrimatory lack of sensitivity.

[trout1105]

You guys are unbelievable. Every conversation on this site about Aboriginal people or minorities, the gay and lesbian community or anything else you find easy to remonstrate against ends in a chest beating, right wing, conservative frenzy.

Clearly you haven't thought about one thing a few of us "lefties" have said. Walk a mile in someone else's shoes.

Want to know why there isn't an easy solution to "fixing" issues in Indigenous communities? Because by systematically destroying Aboriginal culture, white people have taken away nearly everything it means to be an Aboriginal person. How many of you were taken away from your parents when you were kids, beaten if you spoke your language, systematically dispossessed of everything that meant anything? No you haven't thought of that because you only think about yourselves.

Some of us on this forum value the opinions of minorities, Aboriginal people, people from the LGTBI community and women. Be dammed if I'm going to keep sitting here being quiet when I keep hearing such bull****.

How about going out and meeting Aboriginal people and asking them what they think about changing the date and what it means to them? Alternatively you'll probably deride me, my comments and any chance of thinking differently as your Neanderthal brains have become unable to show any compassion, virtue or moral integrity whatsoever. Sometimes I'm ashamed to live in the same country as those of such intolerance. The difference between me and others who give up trying to change your bigoted minds? I ain't no wall flower.

Peace out.

Sorry to burst your bubble Old Mate But I am neither Left winger nor am I Right winger I am a middle of the road bloke that looks at life with a glass half full outlook [biggrin]

A far as I am concerned the Left and Right wing zealots are a pack of Nutters.
I don't care if these people look at life differently to me But I do object when these people try and force their agenda down my throat and try to change things to suit their own agenda that may affect me.

I hope everyone has a great Australia Day tomorrow.[thumbsupbig]

[DiscoClax]

Are women a minority now? I'd better hang on to my missus as her resale is only going to go up... [emoji14]

[DiscoMick]

Keep the missus. Married men eat better and live longer than single blokes.

Some people put their own opinions ahead of reality. That's all I'll say.

[gusthedog]

Sorry to burst your bubble Old Mate But I am neither Left winger nor am I Right winger I am a middle of the road bloke that looks at life with a glass half full outlook [biggrin]

A far as I am concerned the Left and Right wing zealots are a pack of Nutters.
I don't care if these people look at life differently to me But I do object when these people try and force their agenda down my throat and try to change things to suit their own agenda that may affect me.

I hope everyone has a great Australia Day tomorrow.[thumbsupbig]Not trying to force a view on anyone mate. Just trying to show you and others there are views out there other than your own and they also matter.

Your view of the middle of the road is different to mine. Perhaps it's an age thing? I don't consider myself a "left nutter" but see the left in a far more positive light than the right in most instances. That's because I try to be empathetic- a quality severely missing from the conservatives and more right leaning "nutters" to use your words.

[gusthedog]

love a good chest beating.And pot stirring..... [emoji12]

[gusthedog]

Are women a minority now? I'd better hang on to my missus as her resale is only going to go up... [emoji14]I didn't say women were a minority. I said I value the opinions of women - as equally as men. It's called equality if you want to look it up [emoji12]

[rick130]

Someone mentioned the Rum Rebellion?

This I could support!!

From a Facebook post...

"There is a major fact that people seem to be forgetting with the furor over Australia Day being on January 26th.
The 26th of January is also the anniversary of the Rum Rebellion in 1808, the only military coup in Australian history.
It's simple.
Declare January the 26th to be Rum Rebellion Day.
Everyone gets ****ed on rum, marches on Parliament and deposes the government for the vicious, lying fascist ****** they are.
This would be done as an annual event.
Beats the **** out of elections."

Love it!

[trog]

I could go for that , and the continued employment needed to rebuild will keep the tradies occupied all year long.

[trout1105]

Not trying to force a view on anyone mate. Just trying to show you and others there are views out there other than your own and they also matter.

Your view of the middle of the road is different to mine. Perhaps it's an age thing? I don't consider myself a "left nutter" but see the left in a far more positive light than the right in most instances. That's because I try to be empathetic- a quality severely missing from the conservatives and more right leaning "nutters" to use your words.

It May be an age thing because with age comes wisdom But I am only 63.
I have worked with Aboriginal people from Arnhem Land, Melville Island and various other communities in the NT and I have had plenty of time to have a yarn with these people, Also two of my Grandchildren are part Aboriginal So you can't pull the "You haven't had any interaction with these people So you don't know what you are talking about" line with me because I DO know what I am talking about.
Us Middle of the roaders can see both sides of a debate and on Most occasions we can make an unbiased assessment of a situation because we haven't got any particular axe to grind.

Calling people "Neanderthal's" and saying that we are uncaring and have No compassion just because we may not subscribe to your ideology is childish and insulting.
Snarling and insulting people will Never win someone over to your cause, Remember that you will catch more fly's with honey than you will with vinegar [bigwhistle]
I understand that you have Very strong views on this subject and that's Fine with me But you won't win any friends or get people to take you seriously and genuinely consider what you have to say if you continue to fly off the handle every time someone offers up a different viewpoint than yours.

[gusthedog]

It May be an age thing because with age comes wisdom But I am only 63.
I have worked with Aboriginal people from Arnhem Land, Melville Island and various other communities in the NT and I have had plenty of time to have a yarn with these people, Also two of my Grandchildren are part Aboriginal So you can't pull the "You haven't had any interaction with these people So you don't know what you are talking about" line with me because I DO know what I am talking about.
Us Middle of the roaders can see both sides of a debate and on Most occasions we can make an unbiased assessment of a situation because we haven't got any particular axe to grind.

Calling people "Neanderthal's" and saying that we are uncaring and have No compassion just because we may not subscribe to your ideology is childish and insulting.
Snarling and insulting people will Never win someone over to your cause, Remember that you will catch more fly's with honey than you will with vinegar [bigwhistle]
I understand that you have Very strong views on this subject and that's Fine with me But you won't win any friends or get people to take you seriously and genuinely consider what you have to say if you continue to fly off the handle every time someone offers up a different viewpoint than yours.

Did I specifically call you names Trout? Or did I say those without compassion are Neanderthals? If you are offended by a comment not specifically aimed at you its called being paranoid. I thought my language was quite mild seeing some of the racism and bigotry shown in this forum.

I wish wisdom and age went hand in hand - much of the time they unfortunately do not. Young ****** don't grow into nice older people.

Yes I do have strong views. That all opinions should be considered - but yes, I am biased towards opinions that don't target minorities unfairly or do not consider all sides of a debate. I live my life by the principles of merit and equality. I am driven to call people out when they are being close minded. It's who I am.

And it's great to hear you have worked with and have Indigenous relatives. Again, I wasn't targeting you with my response. Simply trying to get peoples attention (which seems to have worked) and try to get them to see alternative views other than their white bread, uninformed, popular media driven dribble.

[DiscoClax]

I didn't say women were a minority. I said I value the opinions of women - as equally as men. It's called equality if you want to look it up [emoji12]
Wow. Try any lighten the mood a little bit and I get talked down to like a naughty school kid...

BTW I generally prefer the concept of equity to that of flat equality in most situations where there is a significant imbalance. But what would I know? I should go and "look it up" and educate myself as I am so obviously lacking in knowledge and unable to think rationally or make informed decisions.

Your statement was ambiguous to me. You started 'minorities' then cslled out Aboriginals (also minority) then LGTBI (also minority) then women (?). Perhaps you could have worded that more clearly if you meant something different?

I don't see people by pigeon holes. We're all just people. All different and all interesting with something to contribute. The way people behave defines them, not a label applied.

I really enjoyed this discourse for the first few pages as there was vigorous discourse from varying positions and with diverse experience and knowledge. It challenged my position and thinking and shifted both. Now it's kindergarten name calling mainly due to the extremists on both sides that do not represent the vast majority of the populace. Once again it has degenerated to this and I'm quite saddened by that disappointment. I had hoped for so much more on this forum that I rate highly.

Thank you to those of you that stayed on topic and argued your position with respect and intelligence and passion. I very much value your contributions sms it has shaped my thinking. Thank you also to the mods that tried...

[101RRS]

try to get them to see alternative views other than their white bread, uninformed, popular media driven dribble.

You underestimate the knowledge and understanding - not necessarily agreement of majority Australians to issues associated with minorities and indigeous peoples. Australian society in all its forms is not perfect but better than most countries that are multicultural.

Happy Australia Day - it is for all Australians no matter what their ethnic or cultural background.

We are one - we are Australian.

Garry

[gusthedog]

Wow. Try any lighten the mood a little bit and I get talked down to like a naughty school kid...

BTW I generally prefer the concept of equity to that of flat equality in most situations where there is a significant imbalance. But what would I know? I should go and "look it up" and educate myself as I am so obviously lacking in knowledge and unable to think rationally or make informed decisions.

Your statement was ambiguous to me. You started 'minorities' then cslled out Aboriginals (also minority) then LGTBI (also minority) then women (?). Perhaps you could have worded that more clearly if you meant something different?

I don't see people by pigeon holes. We're all just people. All different and all interesting with something to contribute. The way people behave defines them, not a label applied.

I really enjoyed this discourse for the first few pages as there was vigorous discourse from varying positions and with diverse experience and knowledge. It challenged my position and thinking and shifted both. Now it's kindergarten name calling mainly due to the extremists on both sides that do not represent the vast majority of the populace. Once again it has degenerated to this and I'm quite saddened by that disappointment. I had hoped for so much more on this forum that I rate highly.

Thank you to those of you that stayed on topic and argued your position with respect and intelligence and passion. I very much value your contributions sms it has shaped my thinking. Thank you also to the mods that tried...Did you not see the smily emoticon I used? I'm on tapatalk - maybe it didn't come through on the platform you're using. I realised you were stirring the pot and was simply poking fun back.

And yes, my original response probably was ambiguous. It's hard to be succinct and objective when you are cranky.

[gusthedog]

You underestimate the knowledge and understanding - not necessarily agreement of majority Australians to issues associated with minorities and indigeous peoples. Australian society in all its forms is not perfect but better than most countries that are multicultural.

Happy Australia Day - it is for all Australians no matter what their ethnic or cultural background.

We are one - we are Australian.

GarryNo Australia day on the 26 of january is not for all peoples or minorities. Clearly Indigenous Australians aren't happy to have the celebration on the date white dudes set up shop. How can you not see that would be offensive if you were an Indigenous Australian?

[DiscoClax]

Fair call. My intent wasn't to foster more division, namely the opposite.

[101RRS]

Clearly Indigenous Australians aren't happy to have the celebration on the date white dudes set up shop. How can you not see that would be offensive if you were an Indigenous Australian?

Yes it is considered offensive to some Indigenous Australians but NOT to all Indigenous Australians - many are fully supportive.

As I said you underestimate the understanding of mainstream Australians to the issues in our society.

[trout1105]

No Australia day on the 26 of january is not for all peoples or minorities. Clearly Indigenous Australians aren't happy to have the celebration on the date white dudes set up shop. How can you not see that would be offensive if you were an Indigenous Australian?

It may surprise you to know that ALL aboriginal Australians are not as Left wing as you are and Many of them celebrate Australia Day along with every other Australian on this day.
What's with the "White Dudes" comment, A bit "Racist" don't you think [bigwhistle]

[gusthedog]

It may surprise you to know that ALL aboriginal Australians are not as Left wing as you are and Many of them celebrate Australia Day along with every other Australian on this day.
What's with the "White Dudes" comment, A bit "Racist" don't you think [bigwhistle]I'm sorry - were there black dudes involved on the 26 Jan at Port Jackson? I think you'll find they were white....

[gusthedog]

Yes it is considered offensive to some Indigenous Australians but NOT to all Indigenous Australians - many are fully supportive.

As I said you underestimate the understanding of mainstream Australians to the issues in our society.This should get the angries going. Another article from the guardian It’s convenient to say Aboriginal people support Australia Day. But it’s not true | Jack Latimore | Opinion | The Guardian (https://amp.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/jan/22/its-convenient-to-say-aboriginal-people-support-australia-day-but-its-not-true)

Where's your evidence to support Indigenous Australians supporting 26 Jan?

[martnH]

.....Please don't get emotional....

The facts I gathered are that international law recognises all territories acquired through invasion by force, prior to World War II, as lawful conquests(UN General Assembly Resolution 3314). Provided that all citizens of a such territory are granted equal rights by the local law (which is clearly the case now but maybe not in the past....

So if Australian day is regarded as the day of invasion. Then the aboriginals are conquered people and thus have no land rights. This is obviously not what aboriginals want, evident by the 1992 Mabo Decision, where it rested on the presumption that Australia was settled, not invaded.

So Australian day is universally agreeed as not being the day of invasion but maybe the day of settlement.

These are the facts I leaned...

So my question is really what is Australian day really about? Is it about celebrating this great modern multi-culture Australia, which will be a reasonable common ground for every Australian to celebrate this day. Or is it about one culture that is the culture of the settlers, Anglo-Saxon. In this case, Australian day will be the day when people talked about how their father/grandfather fought in ww1 or 2 ( and herpas how imigrants came for a free ride...)

I think there lies the difference. And it is understandable why some feel offended by the people to chang e Australia day to January 26 because it would be a denial of their culture and history, and also a challenge to Anglo-Saxon dominance

Just my 2 cents...

[101RRS]

Where's your evidence to support Indigenous Australians supporting 26 Jan?

You implied All Indigenlous Australians do not support 26 Jan - well I acknowledge some dont - but many (is it a majority? no idea) do support 26 Jan as Australia Day as they acknowledge it is for all Australians. Producing media article does not support one side or another just as anything can be dragged up to support either position. You quoted one article and I can do as well - lets have media articles at 10 paces - but lets not.

A lot of Australians should listen to Alice Springs Councillor Jacinta Nampijinpa Price - she is more about looking forward rather than in the past and improving the life of Indigenous Australia.

No cookies | NT News (http://www.ntnews.com.au/news/northern-territory/alice-springs-councillor-jacinta-nampijinpa-price-against-changing-date-of-australia-day/news-story/426d70114e2436d0b71f6134e76391b1)

[Pickles2]

It may surprise you to know that ALL aboriginal Australians are not as Left wing as you are and Many of them celebrate Australia Day along with every other Australian on this day.
What's with the "White Dudes" comment, A bit "Racist" don't you think [bigwhistle]
Spot on.
There was an article, "Attacking Australia Day Rejects Our History" in Thursday's Herald Sun by Indigenous Aboriginal identity Jacinta Nampijinpa Price, Alice Springs Councillor, and a research associate for independent studies, confirming that most Indigenous people have no issues with it, as distinct as to how it is portrayed by "Activists" .
Pickles.

[Eevo]

And pot stirring..... [emoji12]

if you dont stir the pot, the food ends up bad

[Eevo]

Happy Australia day everyone!

[DiscoMick]

I'm celebrating the Rum Rebellion. I quite like the theory of people rising up to overthrow an autocratic dictator.
Unfortunately that's not what actually happened. It was actually about John MacArthur and the military rejecting Bligh's attempts to stop them flogging over-priced rum to the population to make huge profits to fund their farming estates, as they grabbed the best land around Sydney. So it was about greed, not liberty.
Anyway, it's as good an excuse as any to mark the establishment of NSW.
The establishment of Australia as a federation of states was on January 1, of course.

[Ean Austral]

Spot on.
There was an article, "Attacking Australia Day Rejects Our History" in Thursday's Herald Sun by Indigenous Aboriginal identity Jacinta Nampijinpa Price, Alice Springs Councillor, and a research associate for independent studies, confirming that most Indigenous people have no issues with it, as distinct as to how it is portrayed by "Activists" .
Pickles.

If my memory serves me correctly , Her mother Bess Price who became a politician is 1 of the traditional owners from the Alice springs area.

Cheers Ean

[Gordie]

Chan 9 must have been listening to my previous post re adopting the NZ national day...way to go!!![thumbsupbig]

Aussie TV channel uses NZ flag to promote Australia Day | Stuff.co.nz (https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/100933933/aussie-tv-channel-uses-nz-flag-to-promote-australia-day)

[Ean Austral]

You implied All Indigenlous Australians do not support 26 Jan - well I acknowledge some dont - but many (is it a majority? no idea) do support 26 Jan as Australia Day as they acknowledge it is for all Australians. Producing media article does not support one side or another just as anything can be dragged up to support either position. You quoted one article and I can do as well - lets have media articles at 10 paces - but lets not.

A lot of Australians should listen to Alice Springs Councillor Jacinta Nampijinpa Price - she is more about looking forward rather than in the past and improving the life of Indigenous Australia.

No cookies | NT News (http://www.ntnews.com.au/news/northern-territory/alice-springs-councillor-jacinta-nampijinpa-price-against-changing-date-of-australia-day/news-story/426d70114e2436d0b71f6134e76391b1)

They had the Minister for Aboriginal Health, who is Indigenous , on the TV a few days back and he was saying there are far more important issues at present than worrying about the date of Australia day. From what I have seen of the indigenous communities up here , he is 100% correct.

Cheers Ean

[Bigbjorn]

The solution to improving the life of indigenous Australians is in their own hands. It involves education and work. Getting of their butts, off the grog, and eventually off welfare. Just look at the immigrants and refugees who have come here with nothing and succeeded. Large numbers were illiterate even in their own language. Indeed, many spoke a language that was unwritten. Many of these ethnic groups were as much disliked by White australia as were the aborigines. Yet they persevered and succeeded. Look at the Vietnamese community for an example. In two generations a high proportion of their children are in the professions. The postwar Italians and Greeks are among the biggest property owners.

[Fatso]

135433

[rick130]

You implied All Indigenlous Australians do not support 26 Jan - well I acknowledge some dont - but many (is it a majority? no idea) do support 26 Jan as Australia Day as they acknowledge it is for all Australians. Producing media article does not support one side or another just as anything can be dragged up to support either position. You quoted one article and I can do as well - lets have media articles at 10 paces - but lets not.

A lot of Australians should listen to Alice Springs Councillor Jacinta Nampijinpa Price - she is more about looking forward rather than in the past and improving the life of Indigenous Australia.

No cookies | NT News (http://www.ntnews.com.au/news/northern-territory/alice-springs-councillor-jacinta-nampijinpa-price-against-changing-date-of-australia-day/news-story/426d70114e2436d0b71f6134e76391b1)They're was a very good The Drum episode on the ABC a few weeks back and Jacinta was making some excellent points that effort need to be made on both sides to address the current health, incarceration and education issues.

I'd consider myself a card carrying lefty these days, and she made me sit up and listen.

There is an exactly essay in The Monthly by Noel Pearson atm on why he feels betrayed by government atm too.
Regardless of what you think of Noel and whether you agree or disagree, he's a thinker.

It pays to read widely.

[tact]

[...] Clearly Indigenous Australians aren't happy to have the celebration on the date white dudes set up shop. How can you not see that would be offensive if you were an Indigenous Australian?

The above two sentences read together are one of the (rare) clear and unambiguous comments you have made in recent posts to this thread.

The first sentence could, by itself, be ambiguous. Did you mean :
- “Clearly [some] Indigenous Australians aren't happy...” or,
- “Clearly [all] Indigenous Australians aren't happy...”

But with the second sentence as context you clearly mean/believe the latter.

In another post here you asked for proof that indigenous people are ok with the 26th Jan. There’s are plenty of indigenous voices saying so. If only you open your eyes/ears. What more proof is needed.

Ok: Enjoying Australia Day in Parramatta Park and indigenous speakers and performers here have delighted my ears saying words to effect “... we are all one big mob, celebrate and enjoy together”. Just saying.

[AllTerr]

Illawarra Aboriginal leader says leave Australia Day as is

Illawarra Aboriginal leader says leave Australia Day as is | Illawarra Mercury (http://flip.it/INOX.P)

[CraigE]

This was interesting reading earlier in regard to those calling settlement invasion day
Inconvenient fact: Native title can only exist if Australia was settled, not invaded (http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/inconvenient-fact-native-title-can-only-exist-if-australia-was-settled-not-invaded-20180119-h0l9hb.html)

[trout1105]

Seems pretty stupid for the Lefties and some of the aboriginal people to risk loosing their newly won land rights just to win some political points over the name of a public holiday that won't change because the vast majority of Australians are against it anyway.
Maybe it is really a Right wing plot [bigwhistle]

[Eevo]

would a vote be required to change the date?

[Tins]

Maybe it is really a Right wing plot [bigwhistle]

Haven't seen any tall white hoods and burning crosses yet.... I'll bet it's more a bunch of that union I won't mention enjoying their triple time day off destroying the very civilisation who gave them triple time. The same morons who sold their car building mates' jobs to Thailand.

I just spent two days with my Father in Law, former POW on 'that' railway, burying his daughter, my wife. Do you reckon he'd be standing with these clowns. He, and all his mates, fought precisely so that the left scourge would not win. At the same time, the Unions were sabotaging and stealing from the wharves. You pick your sides in this. I have picked mine.

As for Invasion Day, there was no "Nation" here to invade. There were a bunch of tribal communities fighting each other for territory, or, more likely, hunting. Has anyone considered how the "Indigenous" people would have fared if Cortez had arrived here? La Perouse got here a little late as well, but how would it have gone if HE had got here first?

Someone was going to arrive, it was just a matter of time. At least, we still have some indigenous people to worry about. Not sure that would be the case if the Spanish, French, Belgians or Germans had arrived first.

I have seen first hand the tragedy of the Indigenous, which is more than any of those clowns on the front page have done, and I would dearly like to make it right for them. Proper, decent care may do that. A date on a calendar won't. Their ancestors had no concept of a calendar, and neither do the the families on the Todd river.

[Tins]

would a vote be required to change the date?


You serious???

[Eevo]

You serious???

quite serious. is the date built into the consternation (requiring a vote) or can it something parliament can change (without a vote)

[tact]

I'm sorry - were there black dudes involved on the 26 Jan at Port Jackson? I think you'll find they were white....

Doesnt matter who was present. Your comment is derogatory, calls out a faux race stereotype “white dudes”, this is patently racist. Thank you, you can’t shake that off.

[rick130]

quite serious. is the date built into the consternation (requiring a vote) or can it something parliament can change (without a vote)

No, a simple act of government, not even parliament AFAIK.

IIRC it wasn't a public holiday on the actual 26th until 1994?

Prior to that it was just a long weekend nearby.

Found this History – Australia Day (https://www.australiaday.org.au/about-australia-day/history/)

[gusthedog]

Invasion Day marked by thousands of protesters calling for equal rights, change the date - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-26/invasion-day-protests-in-melbourne-and-sydney/9364940?pfmredir=sm&user_id=8bf2206a9748195a14c6061914635972b5959b5d02 2ca62a9da0762ffbd2fe5e&utm_source=sfmc&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=%3a8935&WT.tsrc=email&WT.mc_id=Email%7c%7c8935&utm_content=ABCNewsmail_topstories_articlelink)

[gusthedog]

Doesnt matter who was present. Your comment is derogatory, calls out a faux race stereotype “white dudes”, this is patently racist. Thank you, you can’t shake that off.I want some of what you're smoking.

By that rational I'm assuming you think "black lives matter" is racist too?

[trog]

I want some of what you're smoking.

Might be in short supply . I think the navy has just confiscated another big chunk of hash.

[Eevo]

thousands protesting vs millions celebrating.

is this really an issue?

[Fatso]

Nope !

[trout1105]

Invasion Day marked by thousands of protesters calling for equal rights, change the date - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-26/invasion-day-protests-in-melbourne-and-sydney/9364940?pfmredir=sm&user_id=8bf2206a9748195a14c6061914635972b5959b5d02 2ca62a9da0762ffbd2fe5e&utm_source=sfmc&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=%3a8935&WT.tsrc=email&WT.mc_id=Email%7c%7c8935&utm_content=ABCNewsmail_topstories_articlelink)

Why the call for equal rights?, This already exists.
If the European settlement is deemed to be an "Invasion" then all the land rights decisions and the royalties payouts will be at risk.
Change the name/date, Not going to happen because any government that did this would be out on its ear come the next election and they know that.

[tact]

I want some of what you're smoking.

By that rational I'm assuming you think "black lives matter" is racist too?

“Racist” typically applies to derogatory or negative comments referencing race. Your comments referenced race and were derogatory.

Is the term “black lives matter” derogatory ?

i rest my case. You may continue to twist and turn as you please. I certainly do not want any of what you may be smoking, though I suspect you are more likely to use suppositories than smoke your meds - by personal choice, not necessity, and that’s ok too.

[bigwhistle]

[DiscoMick]

This was interesting reading earlier in regard to those calling settlement invasion day
Inconvenient fact: Native title can only exist if Australia was settled, not invaded (http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/inconvenient-fact-native-title-can-only-exist-if-australia-was-settled-not-invaded-20180119-h0l9hb.html)
Read the Mabo judgement for the law on that one. Indigenous people were settled long before the First Fleet arrived.

[trout1105]

Read the Mabo judgement for the law on that one. Indigenous people were settled long before the First Fleet arrived.

That has nothing to do with anything.
"
Had Australia actually been invaded, the descendants of its native population would be classified as a conquered people and their land rights would be abolished under UN Resolution 3314."
So it is irrelevant when the indigenous population first "Settled" Australia prior to the "so called" invasion of Europeans 3 centuries ago.

[gusthedog]

“Racist” typically applies to derogatory or negative comments referencing race. Your comments referenced race and were derogatory.

Is the term “black lives matter” derogatory ?

i rest my case. You may continue to twist and turn as you please. I certainly do not want any of what you may be smoking, though I suspect you are more likely to use suppositories than smoke your meds - by personal choice, not necessity, and that’s ok too.

[bigwhistle]I actually have no idea what you are talking about. Are you offended that I called the first european settlers white? Or dudes? Or both? Because they actually were white. I didn't mention race. I said they were "white dudes". Pretty sure that's a fact knackers. And it's about as far from racist as you can get. I'm white for a start.

I would actually think using your cray cray logic for a second that as I was using the term "dude" (generally seen as being a positive verb) that I was actually being as far from racist as possible. How is describing someone's skin colour a racist thing?

Or, as I assume, are you unable to tackle some of the other more complex issues I've mentioned above and are therefore drawing attention to one particular turn of phrase to try and win some form of ****ing contest?

Happy to discuss further when you make some sense. Or discuss definitions of racism when you come down from your pedestal.

[Tins]

I want some of what you're smoking.

By that rational I'm assuming you think "black lives matter" is racist too?

Do some research. Black Lives Matter is just as racist as the Klan. Possibly more so.

[Tins]

Why the call for equal rights?, This already exists.


Possibly the most sensible statement so far on this thread.

[bee utey]

Do some research. Black Lives Matter is just as racist as the Klan. Possibly more so.

Just a moment... (https://blacklivesmatter.com/about/)

How DARE blacks seek equal treatment? Don't they realise where their proper place is?

(Obviously snark, that normal sane people will understand)

[Eevo]

Just a moment... (https://blacklivesmatter.com/about/)

How DARE blacks seek equal treatment? Don't they realise where their proper place is?

(Obviously snark, that normal sane people will understand)

equal rights doesnt mean equal treatment.

i treat people by how they treat me.