Fuel efficient cars may damage our road maintenance?

[Roverlord off road spares]

Road maintenance is partly funded by costs we pay for owning a vehicle, one of them is fuel excise. a large percentage comes from buying fuel.
This article says fuel efficient cars eg electric vehicles with not fund road maintenance.
Electric cars are breaking our roads, here's how - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-15/electric-cars-breaking-australia-roads-reform-road-user-charging/9235564'sf179212081=1)

[Classic88]

Sounds like the government getting ready to tax us for something else. Hopefully not a tyre tax or everyone here is @#$%! [bighmmm]

[101RRS]

You really dont think the govt will let that go on for long - they have to be a bit devious to fix it as if they are seen as putting extra taxes on electric cars and green steam it may keep us buying dino fuel.

The solution will not be simple but I am sure they will come up with a way to get the money.

[austastar]

Hi,
I would hope that a system could be devised so that vehicles do not incur costs when not being used on the roads.
The present annual 'renting permission ' of registration is simply now just an innapropriate and obsolete system.
Cheers

[JDNSW]

The problem with that article is that although it implies funds for roads are tied to fuel excise, there is in fact, no such linkage. There was originally, but there has not been for many years. Excise goes into consolidated revenue, and Federal road funding comes out of consolidated revenue.

The idea that they are linked is kept alive by the availability of relief from the excise for some offroad use (but not, for example for recreational boating, home small engine use, such as mowers etc - I don't think for any offroad petrol use).

And most road funding comes from state and local government, who are not allocated any of the excise - they get Federal money for roads, but this is tied to specific projects, not excise receipts.

[Roverlord off road spares]

Maybe they'll go the NZ system of a road tax, for distance traveled with kilometer counters on the rims. You only pay for your use of the road when you are wearing out the tarmac.

With the price of Electricity going up all the time, it probably won't be economical to drive electric cars, remember LPG, the fuel of the future, the government encouraged us to convert to it then started to raise the price of LPG once people started using it.

[350RRC]

The problem with that article is that although it implies funds for roads are tied to fuel excise, there is in fact, no such linkage. There was originally, but there has not been for many years. Excise goes into consolidated revenue, and Federal road funding comes out of consolidated revenue.

The idea that they are linked is kept alive by the availability of relief from the excise for some offroad use (but not, for example for recreational boating, home small engine use, such as mowers etc - I don't think for any offroad petrol use).

And most road funding comes from state and local government, who are not allocated any of the excise - they get Federal money for roads, but this is tied to specific projects, not excise receipts.

Professional fishermen can get excise relief with petrol, came in about 10 years ago.

DL

[ramblingboy42]

People are really stupid.

On a local radio show yesterday, following the govt statement , people were ringing in and whingeing about people who own electric cars and high fuel efficient ones as well , for not paying their fair share of taxes in the form of fuel excise , because they believe they are carrying the burden of those who chose to make an environmental statement.

[Kidbeen]

Don't worry, the politicians will simply raise the GST to 15%.

[mick88]

It's about time they looked into this as regardless what is being driven on the roads, they still need to be maintained.

As farmers we can claim the excise paid on our diesel fuel for off-road/farm use, however as we have two farms we
have to drive about 1.5 kilometres on a public sealed road between farms. When making a claim for the rebate we
have to estimate the fuel used on the public road and deduct that amount from the claim.

Cheers, Mick.

[Ausfree]

Don't worry, the politicians will simply raise the GST to 15%.
I think you are on the money, the threat to raise the GST has been hanging over the publics head for some time now.

[3toes]

Any government needs to raise funds to cover the cost of what it does. In many cases part of this is raised by a tax on energy consumption. They may offer discounts to create a temporary competitive advantage and attract people to alternative fuels while a market is established/reaches critical mass however at the end of the day they have a tax target to reach. Politics and sector lead pressure groups will impact on deciding where these discounts are offered and for how long they remain in place.

It is only to be expected that a new way of calculating tax on fuel will follow any change in fuel source. Figuring this out is going to be a bigger issue for countries that unlike Australia charge high levels of tax on energy consumption.

The current tax on fuel is equitable as it is directly connected to miles travelled and the amount of fuel used. The user can make decisions to pay more or less tax based on distance driven and economy of the vehicle selected. Drive more miles use more fuel pay more tax.

[trout1105]

IF the government stopped wasting and diverting the funds raised via excise and licencing there wouldn't be a problem.

[101RRS]

Any government needs to raise funds to cover the cost of what it does.

More like "Any government needs to raise funds to cover the cost of what it wastes.

[V8Ian]

Raising alcohol tax has already been mooted, just to save us from ourselves.

[trog]

Brew your own

[Homestar]

Maybe they'll go the NZ system of a road tax, for distance traveled with kilometer counters on the rims. You only pay for your use of the road when you are wearing out the tarmac.

With the price of Electricity going up all the time, it probably won't be economical to drive electric cars, remember LPG, the fuel of the future, the government encouraged us to convert to it then started to raise the price of LPG once people started using it.

NZ is a small country so this style of system works but I'd be worries about those that live in remote areas and in rural Australia getting raped by this sort of system. Here in Melbourne, the average commute is 30 odd KM each way and a bit of running around picking the kids up etc. What about those that have to drive 100's of KM to town and back and 100's of KM each day getting around their properties etc? I used to live 120KM from the shops and clock up many more KM then that I did when I moved to the city and I was earning much less - crap system for these sort of people.

There would need to be so many different pricing structures, exemptions etc it would be a night mare. You'd also need it to be a National scheme, so if you know how to get all the States to agree to a standardised rego system, I'm all ears.

[Gordie]

NZ is a small country so this style of system works but I'd be worries about those that live in remote areas and in rural Australia getting raped by this sort of system. Here in Melbourne, the average commute is 30 odd KM each way and a bit of running around picking the kids up etc. What about those that have to drive 100's of KM to town and back and 100's of KM each day getting around their properties etc? I used to live 120KM from the shops and clock up many more KM then that I did when I moved to the city and I was earning much less - crap system for these sort of people.

There would need to be so many different pricing structures, exemptions etc it would be a night mare. You'd also need it to be a National scheme, so if you know how to get all the States to agree to a standardised rego system, I'm all ears.The New Zealand system taxes you on a per km travelled on road , and the diesel is less at the pump(Diesel is cheaper than petrol in NZ, unlike here). So the tax is there, just paid in a different way. Any diesel powered vehicle or boat, not used on a road, isn't being taxed for road use.

[austastar]

Hi,
Perhaps the answer will be somewhat in the form of an uploaded gps log, weighted on location/zone, duration and time of day, and the day of the week/month/year.

Drive to the city in commuting hours/days at expensive rates or do the trip after hours for a cheaper rate.

This could spread the load on the infrastructure and lower peak stress.

Cheers

[JDNSW]

Trouble with that (and similar) ideas is that it requires new electronic equipment to be installed in every registered vehicle in the country, including visiting vehicles from overseas, and vehicles that may be decades old (some with heritage registration), plus vehicles exempt from state or territory registration, such as fire engines and military vehicles. It then requires a system that can regularly download the data, bearing in mind that there is no mobile phone coverage in most of the area of the country, and many car owners have no internet access. Having agreed on a common system between all the states and territories for such a system, and enforced compliance, there is merely the problem of ensuring that the data base and individual devices cannot be tampered with or hacked, and is free of significant bugs.

I won't say it is impossible, but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it either.

[bee utey]

Trouble with that (and similar) ideas is that it requires new electronic equipment to be installed in every registered vehicle in the country, including visiting vehicles from overseas, and vehicles that may be decades old (some with heritage registration), plus vehicles exempt from state or territory registration, such as fire engines and military vehicles. It then requires a system that can regularly download the data, bearing in mind that there is no mobile phone coverage in most of the area of the country, and many car owners have no internet access. Having agreed on a common system between all the states and territories for such a system, and enforced compliance, there is merely the problem of ensuring that the data base and individual devices cannot be tampered with or hacked, and is free of significant bugs.

I won't say it is impossible, but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it either.

Vehicles that use toll roads already have e-tag transponders, so are charged to enter particular roads. Tolls can be extended to larger parts of the road network if required. Charging doesn't have to be on the basis of cents per kilometre travelled, so long as tolls are levied in sufficient amounts. Just like phone contracts rarely charge for individual calls these days, all that counts is that sufficient funds are collected.

[austastar]

Hi,
True.
But the device could be an app on a smart phone or similar, with the maximum length/weight approved for a class of vehicle on the register,
Phased introduction running parallel to the existing system is not impossible.
Costs/benifit studies would be needed of course, but I doubt it would prove to be more rediculous than the present system.
Given the go ahead and market potential, I'm sure the Apple/Samsungs of the world could knock out a global solution in a year or two, make a profit, return adequate revenue to the tax base, and spread the tax load more equitably to the vehicle owners.
Cheers

[rover-56]

Sounds like the government getting ready to tax us for something else. Hopefully not a tyre tax or everyone here is @#$%! [bighmmm]

Government is setting us up for a change in roads usage costing. Roads funding does not come directly from excise. Fuel excise goes directly into general revenue. Roads maintenance comes out of general revenue.
Whatever changes are made will only happen if it is revenue positive.
Terry

edit : and roads maintenance supposedly comes out of registration charges. How much is used for roads? Bet you can't find out.[tonguewink]

[3toes]

Given the go ahead and market potential, I'm sure the Apple/Samsungs of the world could knock out a global solution in a year or two, make a profit, return adequate revenue to the tax base, and spread the tax load more equitably to the vehicle owners.
Cheers

European/Chinese GPS alternative Galileo is being built with the ability to track cars and chargé par mile traveled. System had been under construction for over 10 years now. EU and China who are funding project want their cash back from this project. That is why the legislation to charge all cars in EU per mile traveled was included in the build. Is proving more difficult than you or I might think however once they have cracked it will no doubt be looking to sell to other countries.

UK government has conducted successful experiments with tracking car speed and issuing speeding fines based on satellites so these technologies are moving forward.

[Homestar]

Hi,
True.
But the device could be an app on a smart phone or similar, with the maximum length/weight approved for a class of vehicle on the register,
Phased introduction running parallel to the existing system is not impossible.
Costs/benifit studies would be needed of course, but I doubt it would prove to be more rediculous than the present system.
Given the go ahead and market potential, I'm sure the Apple/Samsungs of the world could knock out a global solution in a year or two, make a profit, return adequate revenue to the tax base, and spread the tax load more equitably to the vehicle owners.
Cheers

So then by law we have to carry our phones with us everywhere we go? I know most people do, but when I'm not at work I rarely carry a phone and don't own my own either. Then what happens when the battery goes flat? No USB charger in my 101 and I'm sure as **** not fitting one either.

The whole 'big brother' idea of this would get the government of the day ousted in weeks - remember the Australia Card? Now ask people to have themselves tracked every single KM they travelled...

Will never happen...

[JDNSW]

Not to mention that there is no mobile phone coverage over most of Australia away from main roads. Then there is the question of whether such a system can accurately measure whether the vehicle is actually on a public road. Mind you, when I think of my farm ute, it probably does 80-90% of the annual mileage not on public roads, so the fuel excise and registration I pay on it is mostly for something I don't get.

On a separate note, it should be pointed out that a large proportion of the roads in the country are paid for by council rates - which landowners pay whether they use the council's roads or not, and regardless of whether they even have any access to the council's roads or perhaps are a vehicle user at all. (Minor roads total a lot larger distance than main roads)