Towing a heavy camper trailer on sand?

[mojo]

Hi guys, we are looking at buying a new camper trailer, and one of the types we are considering is forward fold camper trailers. These types of trailers are quite heavy, probably around 1.6t empty and up to 2t loaded, or even a bit more. Bit hard to say what the ball weight will be when loaded, but I would say anything up to 200kg would be possible, and possibly higher.

I know the D4 is a great tow vehicle and definitely won't have any problems on road, but my query is how it will handle it off road, particularly on sand as we usually camp on the islands around Brissie. Our old camper was a lot lighter, probably around 1.2t fully loaded, and we managed to tow it on sand without any issues with our Defender. But I really have no idea how the Disco will tow on sand, especially with such a heavy trailer.

Are any of you guys towing something similar?

Cheers
Sean

[Milton477]

I will be watching with interest as I am hoping to try my luck with 2.7t of van on Teewah beach soon.
Like a lot of places, getting on & off the beach is the problem because of the 35", 40 psi holes at the entrance/exits which means you have to slow down.

[veebs]

Is it possible to hire one up your way? Maybe take one for a spin first to see if you like it, take it for a run on a beach, etc?

We were sold on the forward fold units too - then we hired one for a week. Heavy to tow (car has no issues, but at over 2t loaded you definitely know it's there), slow to set up, complicated tent pole system, minimal storage space and hopeless kitchen. We ended up saving our money and going for a much more basic and light weight trailer.

Sorry - bit off topic :)

[mojo]

Is it possible to hire one up your way? Maybe take one for a spin first to see if you like it, take it for a run on a beach, etc?

We were sold on the forward fold units too - then we hired one for a week. Heavy to tow (car has no issues, but at over 2t loaded you definitely know it's there), slow to set up, complicated tent pole system, minimal storage space and hopeless kitchen. We ended up saving our money and going for a much more basic and light weight trailer.

Sorry - bit off topic :)

Probably a good idea, I'm sure I'd be able to hire one somewhere.

What trailer did you hire? I'm interested in the Bluewater trailers at this stage. From what I can see the main tent would be less than 10 mins to set up, and perhaps another 15 if you want the awning up as well. Not too bad.

[LRD414]

Are any of you guys towing something similar?
I used to own a forward fold camper that weighed 1.9t fully loaded (1.35t empty) and had a ball weight of 270kg when fully loaded. This is more than the 10% rule of thumb but is normal for the typical forward fold camper due to the relatively long drawbar length.

Towing on sand will not be a problem, simply reduce the camper tyre pressure 2-4 psi lower than what you previously used on the smaller camper.
We found the camper excellent and only sold to get a small offroad hybrid van that we felt would be more suited to a six month trip.

If you are Brisbane based I highly recommend paying a visit to Paul at Wild Boar Campers, he turns out a quality product.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2018/01/591.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/L1FTxV)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2018/01/592.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/VYcbxB)

Cheers,
Scott

[LRD414]

From what I can see the main tent would be less than 10 mins to set up, and perhaps another 15 if you want the awning up as well. Not too bad.
Main Tent - 5 min
Awning - 10-15 min extra

Forward fold is great for quick setup especially for single nights if wanting to stay hitched

[Crofty]

Following too as I’m yet to take my 2T camper onto the soft stuff. One thing I did check was making sure my camper had the same track as the D4. A track wider or narrower than the car would be a more challenging tow.

[JDNSW]

The critical factor towing in sand is having the trailer track the same as the towing vehicle. If you can manage this, and use suitable tyre pressures, there should be no issues.

[veebs]

Probably a good idea, I'm sure I'd be able to hire one somewhere.

What trailer did you hire? I'm interested in the Bluewater trailers at this stage. From what I can see the main tent would be less than 10 mins to set up, and perhaps another 15 if you want the awning up as well. Not too bad.

We tried out a PMX trailer - the Stirling SE. Nothing wrong with the trailer in terms of build quality, just not practical for our purposes.

[DiscoJeffster]

The key thing with camper trailers is the pole design. If you have to install a dozen poles to setup the main tent it’s a pain in th backside. Our Johnno’s soft floor has the main tent hoops built in and one loop is simply extended to make the tent usable for an overnight stay. Adding the awning adds 8 poles, but for an overnight is unnecessary. I saw too many of the Chinese jobbies that had a plethora of internal poles just to setup the basic room.

[DiscoMick]

The rule of thumb is the towball being about 10% of the total weight.
As for sand, dropping the tyres is the main key, followed by momentum.
I'm quite interested in this one, whose ball weight is only 140kg empty, and it also has a very easy pole system, which just needs a push to setup.

SUV Forward Fold GRAND DELUXE - Guardian Campers & RV Centre (http://www.gcrv.com.au/camper_trailers/suv-forward-fold-grand-deluxe/)

[Bytemrk]

I'm sure Marcus (Chops) could give you some advice here I don't know the weights etc, but he pulled this around our SA trip last year, including Googes Track.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2018/01/595.jpg

There were plenty of big dunes, with pretty soft sand and he only had one woops moment - simply making the wrong choice of which track was the best option... easy mistake.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2018/01/596.jpg

As Scott said - tyre pressures on the trailer is the key - would also be beneficial if the trailer has a similar track to the car

[LRD414]

The rule of thumb is the towball being about 10% of the total weight.
As for sand, dropping the tyres is the main key, followed by momentum.
I'm quite interested in this one, whose ball weight is only 140kg empty, and it also has a very easy pole system, which just needs a push to setup.

SUV Forward Fold GRAND DELUXE - Guardian Campers & RV Centre (http://www.gcrv.com.au/camper_trailers/suv-forward-fold-grand-deluxe/)

That looks almost identical to mine with virtually the same empty ball weight. I can guarantee the loaded ball weight will be 100kg extra. This is not a problem so long as you are aware and load the rear of the vehicle accordingly.


The key thing with camper trailers is the pole design. If you have to install a dozen poles to setup the main tent it’s a pain in th backside. Our Johnno’s soft floor has the main tent hoops built in and one loop is simply extended to make the tent usable for an overnight stay. Adding the awning adds 8 poles, but for an overnight is unnecessary. I saw too many of the Chinese jobbies that had a plethora of internal poles just to setup the basic room.
I don't think any of the forward fold campers that the OP is considering would have this issue. All main tent poles are permanently fitted (just fold open and extend internal hoop). The awning requires four poles with guy ropes. All the forward folds we looked at were the same.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2018/01/597.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/22rwEQh)

And the point already mentioned about same track as vehicle is the key, which is almost certain for most of these campers.

Scott

[roamer]

You will not have many problems towing in the sand, with lowered tyre pressure.

But a set of matrix trax could come in handy [bigwhistle]https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/smilies/Whistle.png

[mojo]

Thanks for all the reply's guys. Sounds like the general consensus is the Disco will handle the trailer in sand without too many problems as long as the tyre pressure is suitable. I'll also check the track width of the trailer, but I think that should be OK.

With regards to the trailer itself, I'm pretty confident in the ease of set up. The main tent can be set up with basically no pole adjustment needed, or for a bit of extra tension a few spreader bars can be added, but even that only takes a couple of minutes. Awning setup is a bit trickier, but with a bit of practice should only be a 10-15 minute job. Really, my main concern (aside from cost!) was/is the weight of the trailer, but that concern has been eased by the reply's here.

Cheers
Sean

[DiscoMick]

That looks almost identical to mine with virtually the same empty ball weight. I can guarantee the loaded ball weight will be 100kg extra. This is not a problem so long as you are aware and load the rear of the vehicle accordingly.


I don't think any of the forward fold campers that the OP is considering would have this issue. All main tent poles are permanently fitted (just fold open and extend internal hoop). The awning requires four poles with guy ropes. All the forward folds we looked at were the same.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2018/01/597.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/22rwEQh)

And the point already mentioned about same track as vehicle is the key, which is almost certain for most of these campers.

Scott

The towball weight they quoted was for an empty trailer.
One of the neat things about that particular camper is it has a second 100 litre water tank on the rear giving a total of 200 litres, which might not be needed much of the time, but when the second tank is filled, it reduces the towball weight.

We currently have a 15 year old Aussie Swag rear fold, which is fine for what it is and does the job, but dreaming is nice...
The Aussie Swag is just a case of flip it over and clip the corners down. The awning has four poles. So it's very quick to put up.
Back to the OP and I can say ours is OK in sand as long as the pressures are lowered and you judge the momentum and stay in the hardened wheel tracks.

[ninetubes]

We just came back from a trip across the bight. Eucla to esperance and on to albany with lots of soft sand, inlet crossings and dunes.

A friend took his patriot X1 as a communal catering trailer, loaded up to about 1,600kg. He had re-tracked the trailer to match his vehicle and was running down around 12psi in places. We still had a bit of winching to do to keep it moving, so a vehicle either end of the "mothership" worked well.

One learning was the way the trailer behaved in the sand especially when reversing and over existing wheel ruts. He got really good at reversing pretty quickly across the sand and putting the trailer where he wanted it, mostly!

Practice and having a bit of support on hand would be my take-away from that trip.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2018/01/620.jpg

[Tombie]

The rule of thumb is the towball being about 10% of the total weight.
As for sand, dropping the tyres is the main key, followed by momentum.
I'm quite interested in this one, whose ball weight is only 140kg empty, and it also has a very easy pole system, which just needs a push to setup.

SUV Forward Fold GRAND DELUXE - Guardian Campers & RV Centre (http://www.gcrv.com.au/camper_trailers/suv-forward-fold-grand-deluxe/)

There’s a spread sheet getting around the web of all the vans and trailers with claimed and actual ball weights.

That whole 10% thing goes right out the window!

[DiscoMick]

Yeah, it makes a lot of difference if you can keep the wheels in existing wheel tracks.

[JDub]

We just did a stint down Bremmer Bay, MDC forward fold slide and a Disco 4. Got the car and tyre pressures right and it handled everything even with the 100l water tank full. Few hairy moments in the really powdery sand but all good. Really pleased with the fuel economy too. 2500km trip and averaged 10.8 l/100km.

[Milton477]

Don't be shy with the pics & tyre pressure info etc.

[Dfourfun]

"We found the camper excellent and only sold to get a small offroad hybrid van that we felt would be more suited to a six month trip."

Also following this thread with interest because, like Scott (LRD414 quoted above earlier from this thread), we have an offroad hybrid van which comes in at 1800kg dry (so quite a bit heavier than your flip-open campers!) but about the same ball-weight. We are probably going to be somewhat less adventurous than others, but Australia is just a big sand island so sooner or later we will encounter it with the van attached. The van tracks the same as the D4 and is easy enough to take down the tyre pressure, but still the idea of being bogged with a big rig attached doesn't exactly fill me with excitement.... Interested to see what others have to say about towing in sand.

[Lukeis]

I'd also be interested in hearing peoples experiences of towing a van on sand which DOESN'T track the same as the D4?

Rough measurements of the inside of the tyres for:
car = 1400mm
caravan = 1800mm

The van is 1.85t dry, but holds 180L of water plus whatever gear/food/beer is carried.
On the plus side the van is a duel axle outback model (off road height etc)

I saw some pretty big vans on Fraser Island but I suspect I'd need a full crew to get this out if I was to get bogged?

[strangy]

A little left (or right) of the main topic and bound to get a few grumpy thoughts, but..
I won’t help recover rigs that in my opinion are too stupid to be where they are.

My opinion is subjective and based on many factors of course[emoji57]

So I would also suggest in addition to wheel track and tyre pressures, is to make sure whatever rig chosen can be recovered by the operator or travel companions from the environment it is attempting to traverse.

[Graeme]

I've had the same thoughts about my RR and 4-wheel, 2.5T van where the van's track is 250mm wider than the car's. Whilst not a complete new set of tracks for the van's front wheels reduces the impact, de-bogging 4 wheels carrying 2.5T is not on my favourite activities list.

[Markf]

... de-bogging 4 wheels carrying 2.5T is not on my favourite activities list.

Debogging ANYTHING is quite low on my list of preferred activities. We've only got a ~40 year old Tirfor, Maxtrax, a snatch strap, sundry shackles and pulleys and a shovel so it's always gonna be hard work... [bighmmm]

[BobD]

To tow in sand I would say that one set of Maxtrax for each axle of the car and trailer and a good snatch strap is the absolute minimum requirement.

I would also recommend never travelling alone, making sure you have some sort of winching capability and lowering all tyre pressures to 18 or lower. Remember that it is almost impossible to back a trailer down a sand hill and you will never back out of where you come to a stop in soft sand, even on flat ground where you would normally be able to back out the Disco alone.

Having said that, however, I have towed my 2.5 T Kimberley Karavan with the D4 along a 20km long reasonably soft white sandy bush track in the Mid West of WA without any issues. I was travelling with my son in law in a GU Patrol. The KK has a similar track to the D4 although it was made to suit a 100 series LC. The track was pretty flat though and it would be a different story on a soft sand hill. The trailer will probably add at least 30% more drag if the wheels follow the same track as the tug so if you can only just make it through without a trailer you wouldn't get through with one.

[Tombie]

Hi Bob, Your track would have varied by 2mm [emoji41]

[Blue C]

We just returned from a trip to Coffin Bay SA and towed our Eclipse off road hybrid camper estimated at 2-2.1T with around 220L water and ball weight 215kg (measured just prior to hitching up with ball weight scales). The camper track is the same as the D4. The track into Black Springs varies between quite soft sand and rocky and is hilly in places. I lowered tyres to 20psi rear (accounting for tow ball weight, rear drawer system, fridge, LR tank -empty by this point on purpose, rear wheel carrier and 2 teenagers in back seat!); 16psi front and 14psi on the camper. DSC turned off, low range, sand mode.
At one stage we had to stop for oncoming vehicle and then climb a reasonable slope in soft sand from stand still- no problems! On the return journey some days later I realised that during a TR mode change (mud/ruts to sand) the DSC comes back on automatically and all of us (wife + 2 daughters) sensed us bogging down- quick mental check and realised "turn off DSC again!" and amazing what a difference that makes- drove out no problems at all.
So in summary- D4 should have no problem at all with 2T camper in soft sand with appropriate tyre pressures, DSC OFF, sand mode, low range and back up as per other posts. I had Maxtrax on the roof (didn't need them) and Snatch strap on board not required. Good luck to OP. You'll be impressed as I was too!

[Tombie]

Blue C. Did you go through Whyalla?
I think I may have seen you passing through...

[Blue C]

Blue C. Did you go through Whyalla?
I think I may have seen you passing through...

Yep sure did! 😊

[Chops]

I'm sure Marcus (Chops) could give you some advice here I don't know the weights etc, but he pulled this around our SA trip last year, including Googes Track.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2018/01/595.jpg

There were plenty of big dunes, with pretty soft sand and he only had one woops moment - simply making the wrong choice of which track was the best option... easy mistake.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2018/01/596.jpg

As Scott said - tyre pressures on the trailer is the key - would also be beneficial if the trailer has a similar track to the car


Being on 20” rims, I could only down to about 23/4 psi,,, was basically ok, but not being able to back up on that particular hill far enough to get a decent shot kinda screwed me,, as you can see.

At that point, 18’s would probably have been better with the whole unit weighing in at over 5 tonnes.

Was as a great trip, but next time I’ll leave the trailer at one end.

[muddy]

Marcus

All part of the learning curve ---which I learnt a lot with trailer in tow

[mojo]

Thanks again for all the great info guys. It's definitely set my mind at ease with regards to the weight of the trailers we're interested in. Hopefully we'll be buying one within the next month or so and getting back to regular camping.

Cheers
Sean

[Blue C]

Good luck with it Sean. I've been contemplating a trip up the Hay River Track in 2020 and was wondering how we'd go with our hybrid camper/off road caravan. It would still require heaps of preparation and I'd go in a convoy. I'm not convinced I'd tow it (I know controversial towing up there) but I'm much happier knowing how the D4 performs towing in soft sand. Obviously the 2 rear seat teenage daughters and 21yo son (ballast[biggrin]) would also be off loaded to another vehicle if I do that trip- fortunately I've found & bought a 2015 Defender 90! It pulls the same camper no problems at all-just a bit slower! Gee it's a great and fun 4WD (sorry off topic)! cheers, David
135318135319

[mojo]

Good luck with it Sean. I've been contemplating a trip up the Hay River Track in 2020 and was wondering how we'd go with our hybrid camper/off road caravan. It would still require heaps of preparation and I'd go in a convoy. I'm not convinced I'd tow it (I know controversial towing up there) but I'm much happier knowing how the D4 performs towing in soft sand. Obviously the 2 rear seat teenage daughters and 21yo son (ballast[biggrin]) would also be off loaded to another vehicle if I do that trip- fortunately I've found & bought a 2015 Defender 90! It pulls the same camper no problems at all-just a bit slower! Gee it's a great and fun 4WD (sorry off topic)! cheers, David
135318135319

Yeah, we still have a 110 Deefer and I love it. Unfortunately we'll probably be selling it soon, but at least we'll have the D4 to continue the fun!

[Tombie]

Keep both. Nothing like having one of each [emoji41]

[Stanoggs]

Following this thread with interest considering our new camper addition

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=135358&d=1516761770

[BbLandy130]

Latest trip was an eye opener,
135388
North Stradbroke for Christmas/New years. Made it up earlier than the crowds and picked the dates and the ferry on the tides. Dropped tire pressures on the 130 and trailer and the run onto the beach and up into the campsites was a breeze (as they hadn't yet been chopped up completely) and with the Stoney Creek Walkthrough at very close to 2T and a measured 180kg ball weight fully loaded and carrying full water tanks of 180lt was less difficult than navigating Brisbane traffic and all the Traffic lights heading to the barge. 12 days of pleasure ensued! Plenty of time sitting and admiring/judging fellow campers taste in Vehicle and Trailer showed that mismatched trailer tracks really have the extra 300nm + of all the more modern common rails working at full capacity just to drag the dead weight through the soft stuff. Being that Flinders Beach is all 40km/h and the Local Rangers were really onto it there's not a huge chance to let momentum have anything to do with it when your only trying to make it through 20m of powder into the campsites. Leaving the beach was a little more difficult as the New years crowd had done their thing and the 80m run off the beach was like powder. Thankfully having a travelling party to ensure the run off was unimpeded the sand boards and snatch strap remained neatly stowed this trip.

130 Daily driver

[Phil Gillespie]

I have a 4x7 box trailer set up with a roof top camper so I can slide my kayaks or motor bike under with camping gear or I can slide an 18ft tandem hobie kayak under the the camper so don't have to take anything of the trailer to un fold the roof top, I also have an extended 1.8 draw bar to accommodate the hobie