More from McGovern--

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Gerry McGovern Gets Frank About Land Rover Design – Alloy+Grit (http://www.alloyandgrit.com/2018/01/19/gerry-mcgovern-gets-frank-about-land-rover-design/)

[harro]

Gerry McGovern Gets Frank About Land Rover Design – Alloy+Grit (http://www.alloyandgrit.com/2018/01/19/gerry-mcgovern-gets-frank-about-land-rover-design/)


Quasimodo to drive a defender for a week....

I am now seriously worried.
After reading that I think he may be a bit full of IT.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

oh no doubt,, but thats par for the course at that design level,,
and he is right,,
if cash registers are correct,, he hasnt ****ed up yet..[smilebigeye]

[Bytemrk]

I for one am really looking forward to what they produce....

It probably won't be all the things I think I want..... but hell 10 years ago I thought the D3 platform was horrid and I'd never buy one.....

I was right I never bought a D3.... but the best Land Rover for me that I have ever owned is my D4.

I would not be all that surprised if a new Defender found its way into my life some time in the future.... We'll see.

[DieselDan]

Compared to some of the stuff he's said, I think a lot of that actually made sense.
As much as he can come across as a pretentious dick, he does know what he's talking about and it does come across that he's passionate about LR and what he does.
He can't half waffle though.....

[LRT]

Compared to some of the stuff he's said, I think a lot of that actually made sense.
As much as he can come across as a pretentious dick, he does know what he's talking about and it does come across that he's passionate about LR and what he does.
He can't half waffle though.....

It’s just his approach that to effect says you must only look forward and not to care about history that worries me.

[LRT]

Double post

[carjunkieanon]

Have to say, I haven't like the snippets I've previously heard from McGovern, but I like every bit of that article.

Modern, Relevant, Compelling. - Great three words to describe LR.

I'll cheerfully ignore 'problems' with the old Defender (and my current Disco) because it find it relevant and compelling, especially compelling. If the new Defender is compelling, I'm sure I'll get over any issue I have with it not looking like the old one.

I HATE 'retro' cars like the retro mini, the retro VW, and the retro Toyota FJ thing. If LR pulled a retro Defender it'd be dated before the first one rolled off the production line. I'm coming round to accept that the old is the old, and the new will be the new and as long as the new is as capable and compelling...I'll probably still not be able to afford it.

(Just hope they don't have the ridiculous off-centre number plate like the ugly-butt D5 has. :glare:)

[Tins]

Anyone remember Chris Bangle, and all his "Flame Surfacing" crap? He nearly broke BMW, and now the same folk who derided his designs now carry on about "ahead of his time" stuff. Not me, though. His 5 and 7 Series cars are still the ugliest cars I have ever seen, with the exception of the Lexus SC340 and anything from Ssanyong.
McGovern has all the same qualities as Bangle. May he move on sooner rather than later. He won't. though. It took BMW 19 years to wake up to Bangle. Now they have gone back to the crisp, understated design that was their trademark.

[Zeros]

"Modern, Relevant, Compelling"...hmm

summed up really = Generic.

Modern = Retro

All new cars are modern in the sense that McGovern is using the word modern. But he's a leading designer, so he should know that modern has actually meant nothing since Modernism (late 1800's), originally from the German Bauhaus school of design, Modern design/style is actually very old.

Relevant = to what / whom?

Compelling = fashionable.
Not necessarily capable, durable or desirable.

...some measured words from the guv, sure. But his over riding principle = luxury = expensive, exclusive, That's not the Defender I know and love.

Capable, Durable, Practical.

Now that hat would be interesting to see in contemporary vehicle design.

The classic design of the current Defender is actually more Modern in terms of clean lines, straight edges and minimal form & function.

[carjunkieanon]

"Modern, Relevant, Compelling"...hmm

summed up really = Generic.

Modern = Retro

All new cars are modern in the sense that McGovern is using the word modern. But he's a leading designer, so he should know that modern has actually meant nothing since Modernism (late 1800's), originally from the German Bauhaus school of design, Modern design/style is actually very old.

Relevant = to what / whom?

Compelling = fashionable.
Not necessarily capable, durable or desirable.

...some measured words from the guv, sure. But his over riding principle = luxury = expensive, exclusive, That's not the Defender I know and love.

Capable, Durable, Practical.

Now that hat would be interesting to see in contemporary vehicle design.

The classic design of the current Defender is actually more Modern in terms of clean lines, straight edges and minimal form & function.




I understood him to mean:
Modern - has all the modern stuff that people want in cars (Safety, comfort, convenience)
Relevant - does what people want the car to do (awesome off-road and darned good on road)
Compelling - I just want to buy a Land Rover above and beyond anything else on the market. Other cars may check more boxes, but I just want a green oval (which is where I'm at).

I think he'd fit 'capable, practical, and durable' under relevant. 'Desirable' would fit with compelling.

He specifically rejects 'generic' as he doesn't want to make a car that ticks all the boxes other manufacturers aim for.

Whether or not he can deliver on what he sets out to achieve is a different story.

[Zeros]

I understood him to mean:
Modern - has all the modern stuff that people want in cars (Safety, comfort, convenience)
Relevant - does what people want the car to do (awesome off-road and darned good on road)
Compelling - I just want to buy a Land Rover above and beyond anything else on the market. Other cars may check more boxes, but I just want a green oval (which is where I'm at).

I think he'd fit 'capable, practical, and durable' under relevant. 'Desirable' would fit with compelling.

He specifically rejects 'generic' as he doesn't want to make a car that ticks all the boxes other manufacturers aim for.

Whether or not he can deliver on what he sets out to achieve is a different story.

Except that all of that = generic, not modern.

His rejection of generic is just spin. You only have to look at the current generic line up of Land Rover models. The only difference is size. Like a set of babushka dolls.

Land Rover - more generic and less modern than ever.

Disco = Holden Captiva

Range Rover = Ford Explorer

...and I strongly suspect Defender will = the most generic of all volume sellers: Ford Ranger.

[carjunkieanon]

...and I strongly suspect Defender will = the most generic of all volume sellers: Ford Ranger.

Now that would be depressing :(

[DieselDan]

Now that would be depressing :(
Could be worse, could be as generic as a hilux.

[Zeros]

I really really hope not. But all the signs are there in McGoverns rhetoric.

[DieselDan]

I really really hope not. But all the signs are there in McGoverns rhetoric.
While I don't generally like much of what McGovern says, I have to disagree with your interpretation of what he's saying.
Yes I do think he's clutching at straws a bit (and getting into the design minutiae) when he says the current models don't look alike, but it seems to me that he wants LR products to stand out from the crowd and not be the same as everything else.
Whether you or I like the look of them or not, i think it's a distinctive look, that's not like other 4wds and you can't really argue with his claims about the performance of the products!

[scarry]

I think what McGovern has done with the company has helped it have massive increase in sales,so they will head in that direction for many years to come.He will be sticking around for a long time yet.

Good luck to them,they have to compete in the market place.

But as quickly as they lose some customers,others will be there to fill the holes.

Thats just a part of life.

My D4 will need replacing shortly,but LR don't have a vehicle for my needs,so i will have to move off to a different brand.

[DiscoClax]

What we now refer to as the Series morphed into the Defender with relatively minimal changes to appearance, and indeed a reasonable amount of commonality. Non LR people struggle to pick the differences between a Series 1 and a MY17 Defo unless they are parked together (yeah... I know). Extraordinary for a production run of nearly 70 years. Against that we are judging a new Defender that will probably have zero carryover parts or styling and be based on a cutting edge platform forged in the last decade. I think there's little doubt it will be radically different to anything we currently think of as a Defender. It'll be thoroughly modern and contemporary in the way it looks and behaves. How LR acheive the balance between the historical functionality and capability and this will be the interesting part. It'll be like the changes from D4 to D5... times a hundred. I really, really also hope he doesn't **** this up (and I hope the filter catches that). We all know that this is an all new vehicle based on the D4u platform which is aluminum unitary and not body-on-frame for the first time ever. I hope there's enough of the old character and most of the old functionality in the new one in a more comfortable and accessible package. I read McGovern's comments that this is what they were trying to acheive, and have. I personally have my concerns, mainly because this is such a monumental task, but I'm hopeful he's right. If they nail it, I may just be looking at my first brand new LR purchase ever. IF...
Interesting times indeed...

[Zeros]

My D4 will need replacing shortly,but LR don't have a vehicle for my needs,so i will have to move off to a different brand.

Exactly my point. The focus has shifted from practical to luxury. Yes new customers will value this. But I don't.

Land Rover began as a concept that would defy categories. Now it's conforming to the categories it once defied.

[3toes]

Land-Rover has been moving away from the work horse vehicle since the seventies. You only need to look at where they have invested their research funds and the vehicles this has produced. There has been no/minimal investment in the work horse type vehicle they built their name on. They have gone where the volume market is and that is city drivers who want to think they are driving the halo Defender just more comfortable/practical. If they had not done this they would have died a long time ago.

In Australia you see so many Toyota 4x4 you think the world outside is the same. Reality is even Toyota sells so few ‘proper’ 4x4 they have stopped investing some years ago and the product is going to be cut. They too do not sell that many. Holden Commodore outsold the Landcruiser in the USA by a margin.

[Zeros]

Exactly, which is why Defender is so important and even more remarkable given that without Defender (without a workhorse vehicle), Land Rover is generic.

The work ute market is booming and its remarkable that Land Rover have missed this opportunity. Why not develop a mid-sized work ute in the past 10 years (instead of the Velar perhaps?), alongside the full-sized HD new Defender?

I guess now all we can hope is that the next Defender will be more heavy duty than the current crop of light duty dual cabs. If not, the brand will take a big credibility hit. Because it's the image of the workhorse and of serious adventure capability that all the SUV's in the Land Rover line up rely on. The green oval is only desirable because it sells the image of real adventure and heavy duty capability. Without the real thing, all the current Land Rover SUV babushka dolls don't look so cool. They just look like generic luxury cars.

[scarry]

Land-Rover has been moving away from the work horse vehicle since the seventies. You only need to look at where they have invested their research funds and the vehicles this has produced. There has been no/minimal investment in the work horse type vehicle they built their name on. They have gone where the volume market is and that is city drivers who want to think they are driving the halo Defender just more comfortable/practical. If they had not done this they would have died a long time ago.

In Australia you see so many Toyota 4x4 you think the world outside is the same. Reality is even Toyota sells so few ‘proper’ 4x4 they have stopped investing some years ago and the product is going to be cut. They too do not sell that many. Holden Commodore outsold the Landcruiser in the USA by a margin.

Dunno where that comment comes from.Sure Toyota total % of sales,'proper' 4x4,i presume you are talking 70 series and LC200,is low compared with total world sales of all their vehicles..

Looking at last years Aus only sales of these two models,they increased from year before and were more than Defender total world sales in 2016.Then add the high Prado sales here as well.

In fact talking to the commercial fleet sales guy at the local Toyota dealer(who we deal with a lot at work),they can't keep up with the 70 series sales.
Nissan and LR have virtually handed this market to Toyota.

Toyota have also recently upgraded the 70 series range,so i doubt it gets cut anytime soon.

[Zeros]

Nissan and LR have virtually handed this market to Toyota.
Toyota have also recently upgraded the 70 series range,so i doubt it gets cut anytime soon.

Agreed. LR dropped the ball.

While perhaps not as big as the luxury car market, the market for real 4x4 work vehicles is huge.

[3toes]

Globally Landcruiser sales have been in decline for many years. They do not break out LC wagon and 70 figures which are reported together. Sales peaked in 2008 at 404k units and have seen a constant decline since then. For the 2017 year there were 166k vehicles sold globally (source Toyota Japan).

Toyota Australia quotes a global sales figure for the 70 series of 75k vehicles in 2015. You will notice that Toyota Australia marketing only talks about the total number of vehicles sold since the model was introduced not the number being sold now.

With these low production numbers you can see why the project to design a replacement for the 70 series was cancelled by Toyota in 2013 and the updates that were recently made were only just enough to meet mining companies requirements and then only to the models that the mines used. Perhaps why Nissan and Land-Rover have both moved away from the segment as well.

It is interesting to note the sales figures achieved by Ford, GM and Dodge in the USA for light trucks. These vehicles are though very USA market centric and have not seen significant export success.

Globally the volume is in the Hilux market segment which is massive and growing

[scarry]

double post[bigsad]

[scarry]

Land Cruiser(200,76,78,79)sales figures in Aus are separated,wagons being separated from the utes.

All models of the 70 series were upgraded,a good few months ago.

The single cab Ute had more substantial upgrades to satisfy the 5 star rating.

A lot of this info including the sales stats is in the E mag in a recent thread on this site.

[Zeros]

So the large HD 4x4 wagon is dead? Is there really no longer a market?

...unless next Defender is the real deal.

...there still don't appear to be any G Professional wagons in the country either.

[incisor]

So the large HD 4x4 wagon is dead? Is there really no longer a market?



big custom build market in Europe and about 3 big players over there with offerings, so the market cant be totally dead

one came up in a banner advert here for me the other week but i cannot recall their name...

i do remember they werent cheap, thats for sure.