Replace a Defender with what?

[JDNSW]

Had an interesting conversation yesterday with a friend. He runs a small groundwater mapping business that operates in two quite different spheres - mining and primary production.

His operations involve mostly driving crosscountry, not even on tracks to cover a regular grid. Currently, he operates two Defenders, but his mining clients are getting insistent about ANCAP 5 rating for all vehicles. He has looked at possible vehicles to replace the Defenders, but there are two different issues.

1. All the vehicles he has looked at appear to excessively vulnerable to damage when subject to the sort of use it would get in his type of operation - inadequate ground clearance, bits that are too easily damaged compared to the Defender's axle housings and other underpinnings when you hit stumps, and too many electrical bits able to be snagged by sticks when pushing through scrub. He was particularly critical of how vulnerable Toyota's starters appear and flimsy sheet metal and vulnerable wiring under Discoverys.

2. With virtually all remotely suitable vehicles aimed primarily at the urban yuppie market, and advertised as this, showing up in one of these at any primary production venue would greatly reduce the chances of getting any work!

The requirements for a vehicle are best possible offroad performance coupled with reasonable operating costs, and able to cover long on highway distances easily between jobs. Ability to maintain a steady speed of around 5kph all day without issues. At least two tonnes offroad towing capability. Full length single compartment body to house instrumentation (cuts out dual cabs). As mentioned above, ANCAP 5 rating. Need a high driver seating position similar to the Defender to make it easier to see where you are going when pushing through scrub or crops.

Anyone got any ideas?

[rick130]

G-Wagen Professional.

Unfortunately the cost of entry is eye watering.

[Vern]

70 series landcruiser! Has a 5 star ancap rating too.

[Tote]

I'd probably disagree with the assessment of the Disco (3 or 4) having taken mine everywhere over about 7 years of life and never damaged anything underneath, although it did have a few bruises after 270,000km. Seats fold flat making a good work storage space but I'm not so sure about the Disco 5 given the current lack of aftermarket equipment for it.

200 series cruiser maybe?

Ranger extended cab ( rather than a dual cab) there is quite a large amount of off the shelf upgrades available in the way of protection equipment, same with an extended cab Hilux.

or go cheap and cheerful with a Triton or a Mahindra and turn them over every 12 months or so. A second hand Triton seems to drop around $10 K with 100,000 KM on it and a couple of years old.

Regards,
Tote

[solmanic]

G-Professional pricing is not ridiculous when you look at what is standard on them, and the costs to option up a 70 series Landcruiser to similar spec.
- Centre, front & rear diff locks standard.
- Hayman Reece type receiver tow bar standard.
- Dual battery standard.
- Switchable 12-24 volt electrics standard.
- Winch wiring & mounting position standard.
- Bullbar, standard.
- Raised air intake, standard.

[ramblingboy42]

The "invincible" defender is not very invincible at all.

It can be very easily replaced by a dozen vehicles on the market.

I know someone here is going to ask me which......do your own homework.

[weeds]

Not much difference in any of the model on the market.

Re: excessively venerable to damage underneath.....look how venerable the defender steering components are and it’s not good for any car hitting stumps. I would say any of the ute on offer with a 50mm lift puts it in the same category as a defender for damage.

Re: electrical bits.......from memory the BT and Hi-luxs we run don’t have cables hanging down waiting to be ripped off.

Re: off road performance, they are all much the same, traction control, rear locker, limited slip diff

Re: operating costs.....the cars we run are hassle free, haven’t broken down and are good on fuel

I think he needs to take his blinkers off.........way more companies ‘99%’ out there operating quite fine with what’s on the market.

The Marindra probably has the highest searing position apart from a cruiser.

[bblaze]

I know a brickie in WA that runs a fleet of great wall utes, replaces them every 12 months
cheers
blaze

[JDNSW]

I have not looked at the market, but how many of those suggested come with a full length hardtop? Not a dual cab, not an extended cab, but two metres or more or space open to the driving position, but secure and weatherproof.

He has been operating the Defenders for a number of years, and is familiar with them.

A lot of users drive on a lot of tracks and find a lot of vehicles are competent with it. Few, however, use them in an activity that requires routing cross country driving not on tracks - the ploughed paddocks are the easy bits, scrub covered grazing country less so.

G-wagon is probably close, but as commented, they are not cheap - and do they make a lwb hardtop?

[Tins]

I have not looked at the market, but how many of those suggested come with a full length hardtop? Not a dual cab, not an extended cab, but two metres or more or space open to the driving position, but secure and weatherproof.




Those criteria really only leave him with a Troopy, or one of the bus bodied 4WD trucks, I would have thought.

Unless you would include wagons in there, in which case a Y62 Patrol ( petrol only, I believe), or a 200LC might fit the bill, but I reckon he'd baulk at IFS, given what you have said.

If money was no object I'd say a closed bodied Mog of some description.

[Lemo]

Hard top
Model Information (https://www.mercedes-benz.com.au/passengercars/mercedes-benz-cars/models/g-class/g-class-professional/explore/model-information.module.html)
More info
2018 Mercedes-Benz G-Class Professional Wagon on sale in Australia (http://www.caradvice.com.au/579444/2018-mercedes-benz-g-class-professional-wagon-on-sale-in-australia/)

[Tins]

Hard top
Model Information (https://www.mercedes-benz.com.au/passengercars/mercedes-benz-cars/models/g-class/g-class-professional/explore/model-information.module.html)
More info
2018 Mercedes-Benz G-Class Professional Wagon on sale in Australia (http://www.caradvice.com.au/579444/2018-mercedes-benz-g-class-professional-wagon-on-sale-in-australia/)

2 metres of open space? I can't see the dimensions on that link. Great car though, easily tough enough.

[Lemo]

2 metres of open space? I can't see the dimensions on that link. Great car though, easily tough enough.

It'd be the closest to a defender on the market today, not cheap are they!!! But nice tax write off!!

[rick130]

The "invincible" defender is not very invincible at all.

It can be very easily replaced by a dozen vehicles on the market.

I know someone here is going to ask me which......do your own homework.Den, I used a new 3.2 BT50 for work for two years and there are many things a Deefer does quite a bit better, and a lot of things the more modern vehicle easily shows it up on.
Off road and load carrying there is no comparison, the old soldier thoroughly shows up the young buck.

[Bigbjorn]

My local repairer will not touch the late model Ranger/BT50 (the five cylinder model). He says there is a design fault in the oil pump and in many vehicles when you drain the oil the oil pump empties itself and will not re-prime. There is also a well documented failure with plenty of internet references of the single undersized battery going flat every few days if not used. A friend has the older four cylinder model and it had a battery the size of an aircraft carrier and a proper second battery position as standard.

JD, has he considered an Iveco?

[weeds]

My local repairer will not touch the late model Ranger/BT50 (the five cylinder model). He says there is a design fault in the oil pump and in many vehicles when you drain the oil the oil pump empties itself and will not re-prime. There is also a well documented failure with plenty of internet references of the single undersized battery going flat every few days if not used. A friend has the older four cylinder model and it had a battery the size of an aircraft carrier and a proper second battery position as standard.

JD, has he considered an Iveco?

Never had issues with servicing the work BT’s, drain oil - refill oil......

Re: battery, I have one in my fleet and it can sit for a week or two every other week and starts straight away. Do you have links for the documented failures as it’s important our BT are reliable with starting.

Your local repairer must have enough work on to pick and choose.

[DiscoMick]

Oka?

[weeds]

Oka?

ANCAP......might be an issue

[Bigbjorn]

Never had issues with servicing the work BT’s, drain oil - refill oil......

Re: battery, I have one in my fleet and it can sit for a week or two every other week and starts straight away. Do you have links for the documented failures as it’s important our BT are reliable with starting.

Your local repairer must have enough work on to pick and choose.

He does not work on Land Rover, Citroen, Peugeot, Renault and a few other mostly Euro like certain Volvo and M-Benz models. He is certainly not short of work. Not the only one I know who picks and chooses makes. A shop in Capalaba has a framed A4 sign on the counter in the reception area listing makes/models they do not book in. Why? Because the proprietor says they are a "******* nightmare". I asked him about all electronic Discos and RR's which most repairers do not want to know about. He says they are fine but you may want to see your bank manager first.

You should be able to Google search for the Ranger BT50 problems.

[rick130]

The BT50 3.2 oil drain issue is a non event if you refill within 15 minutes.

Everyone knows about it, there was a TSB very early on detailing it.

My old employer ran a fleet of them, the only issues we had was two fuel pumps lunching themselves, picked up during warranty servicing and again, something Ford/Mazda were aware of and looking for.

[JDNSW]

The G-wagon does look like it is worth looking at - are Iveco and Oka ANCP 5, and do they come with a full length closed body?

The biggest downside to the G-wagon is, of course, the price - I don't know what he paid for his Defenders (a few years ago now), but I believe both were second hand - the older one is a 300tdi, and the newer an ex-army Td5. Both would have been a small fraction of the cost of a G-wagon.

As an aside, an indication as to the sort of driving he uses them for is that a major concern of his is finding tyres that don't stake as easily as the ones he's tried (a typical selection of the tyres you would find used on Defenders).

[donh54]

Forget the Oka! No such thing as ANCP when they were built. Brilliant vehicle all the same, especially with a Chev V8 diesel and an Alison auto fitted!

[Mick_Marsh]

Maybe Thales should introduce a civilian version of the Hawkie.
Hawkei ute gets a sporting salute - Car News | CarsGuide (https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-news/hawkei-ute-gets-a-sporting-salute-28207)

I think there might be a market out there.

[Bigbjorn]

The BT50 3.2 oil drain issue is a non event if you refill within 15 minutes.

Everyone knows about it, there was a TSB very early on detailing it.

My old employer ran a fleet of them, the only issues we had was two fuel pumps lunching themselves, picked up during warranty servicing and again, something Ford/Mazda were aware of and looking for.

Google Ranger/BT50 oil pump. There are dozens of references on the net and not only from whinging owners but from reputable trade organisations. From what I read fifteen minutes is asking for trouble. Most suggest getting the oil in in 5-7 minutes to be safe and others say as soon as the outlet starts to drip as opposed to flow, screw the drain plug in and start pouring in the new oil.

Also Google Ranger/BT50 flat battery. Dozens of references on the net to this problem also.

[Bigbjorn]

The G-wagon does look like it is worth looking at - are Iveco and Oka ANCP 5, and do they come with a full length closed body?

The biggest downside to the G-wagon is, of course, the price - I don't know what he paid for his Defenders (a few years ago now), but I believe both were second hand - the older one is a 300tdi, and the newer an ex-army Td5. Both would have been a small fraction of the cost of a G-wagon.

As an aside, an indication as to the sort of driving he uses them for is that a major concern of his is finding tyres that don't stake as easily as the ones he's tried (a typical selection of the tyres you would find used on Defenders).

If he is repeatedly staking tyres perhaps he needs to consider tyres of sturdier construction like light/medium truck cross ply, say 8.25 x 16 x 12 ply used on 3-4 tonne trucks.

[cripesamighty]

Or maybe the Bridgestone D661's. They are tough as nails.

[harro]

[QUOkTE=JDNSW;2768960]Had an interesting conversation yesterday with a friend. He runs a small groundwater mapping business that operates in two quite different spheres - mining and primary production.

His operations involve mostly driving crosscountry, not even on tracks to cover a regular grid. Currently, he operates two Defenders, but his mining clients are getting insistent about ANCAP 5 rating for all vehicles. He has looked at possible vehicles to replace the Defenders, but there are two different issues.

1. All the vehicles he has looked at appear to excessively vulnerable to damage when subject to the sort of use it would get in his type of operation - inadequate ground clearance, bits that are too easily damaged compared to the Defender's axle housings and other underpinnings when you hit stumps, and too many electrical bits able to be snagged by sticks when pushing through scrub. He was particularly critical of how vulnerable Toyota's starters appear and flimsy sheet metal and vulnerable wiring under Discoverys.

2. With virtually all remotely suitable vehicles aimed primarily at the urban yuppie market, and advertised as this, showing up in one of these at any primary production venue would greatly reduce the chances of getting any work!

The requirements for a vehicle are best possible offroad performance coupled with reasonable operating costs, and able to cover long on highway distances easily between jobs. Ability to maintain a steady speed of around 5kph all day without issues. At least two tonnes offroad towing capability. Full length single compartment body to house instrumentation (cuts out dual cabs). As mentioned above, ANCAP 5 rating. Need a high driver seating position similar to the Defender to make it easier to see where you are going when pushing through scrub or crops.

Anyone got any ideas?[/QUOTE]

Toyota 76 series wagon in gxl spec for the factory lockers, around $70k+ new.

Bullet proof single turbo v8.

IMO the best serious off-road tourer out there (for the money).

Definitely what I would have bought if I didn’t love the td5 110.

Paul.

[scarry]

[QUOkTE=JDNSW;2768960]Had an interesting conversation yesterday with a friend. He runs a small groundwater mapping business that operates in two quite different spheres - mining and primary production.

His operations involve mostly driving crosscountry, not even on tracks to cover a regular grid. Currently, he operates two Defenders, but his mining clients are getting insistent about ANCAP 5 rating for all vehicles. He has looked at possible vehicles to replace the Defenders, but there are two different issues.

1. All the vehicles he has looked at appear to excessively vulnerable to damage when subject to the sort of use it would get in his type of operation - inadequate ground clearance, bits that are too easily damaged compared to the Defender's axle housings and other underpinnings when you hit stumps, and too many electrical bits able to be snagged by sticks when pushing through scrub. He was particularly critical of how vulnerable Toyota's starters appear and flimsy sheet metal and vulnerable wiring under Discoverys.



2. With virtually all remotely suitable vehicles aimed primarily at the urban yuppie market, and advertised as this, showing up in one of these at any primary production venue would greatly reduce the chances of getting any work!

The requirements for a vehicle are best possible offroad performance coupled with reasonable operating costs, and able to cover long on highway distances easily between jobs. Ability to maintain a steady speed of around 5kph all day without issues. At least two tonnes offroad towing capability. Full length single compartment body to house instrumentation (cuts out dual cabs). As mentioned above, ANCAP 5 rating. Need a high driver seating position similar to the Defender to make it easier to see where you are going when pushing through scrub or crops.

Anyone got any ideas?

Toyota 76 series wagon in gxl spec for the factory lockers, around $70k+ new.

Bullet proof single turbo v8.

IMO the best serious off-road tourer out there (for the money).

Definitely what I would have bought if I didn’t love the td5 110.

Paul.[/QUOTE]

That’s the go,will use more fuel,but ultra reliable and fantastic resale.

For the $ nothing on the market comes close.

[ramblingboy42]

I tend to agree scarry, but this is a land rover forum and died in the wool defender owners just can't see anything else , which is sad.

[RANDLOVER]

I was going to say ex-mil G-wagen, although I'm not sure they have many wagon body types, as the Land Rovers they are selling are pick-ups, also only models from 1987-1998 are on sale now so might have to wait awhile.

[ozscott]

I absolutely love LR and my fairly mildly modded Disco 2 made everything modded except a twin locked 75 with 4 inch taller tyres and 4 inch lift look ordinary at Cape York...the 75 heavily modded was on par. And on road...no comparo. D2 is very comfy. The Deefer is a legend but given they don't make them anymore if I bought new and wanted more than a lighter ute (like the excellent value Triton) I couldn't go past a 76 with rear track kit and twin locked. Given the price some people are after for 110's with 100k on them I wouldn't look at a second hand Deefer anyway.

Cheers

[scarry]

I tend to agree scarry, but this is a land rover forum and died in the wool defender owners just can't see anything else , which is sad.

Except Maybe Amaroks.But if you don’t want a Ute and need a wagon there is not much around.

Don’t want to rock the boat too much though....[biggrin]

What I forgot to say,and numerous accessories are available for them as well,a bash plate or three will cover those vulnerable areas.

I was talking to a customer the other day that has a 76 wagon with a coil rear end set up.Sure it’s expensive,but it is what he wanted.Had it for 5 yrs.Had LRs for the previous 30 yrs[tonguewink].Still a member of a local LR club.

[Zeros]

Defenders are are very difficult to replace for serious bush work.

Tojo 70's are ok but nowhere near as tough as a Defender in the long term IME. Only 70 series traybacks have airbags, so no ANCAP wagon. Different front and rear wheel tracks would be a nightmare for punctures in that kind of scrub too, not to mention picking your line. From what I hear, 200 series run Hilux drivelines..

My 300tdi Defender has outlasted Tojo work vehicles and mates Tojos twice over.

It's seriously harsh running vehicles in the bush for significant periods of time. Nothing is as rugged as a Defender IME.

I can also vouch for Bridgestone 661's - have run them for 15 years. Seriously tough sidewalls. All the mines run them for a reason. I get 80,000km out of a set.

G Professional Wagons are reportedly available, but still none on carsales.
As such, small volume sales would mean repairs would be a PITA anywhere outside a city. Not sure if ANCAP 5 anyway. Mega bucks too.

I hear you JD. It seems there is nothing that meets proper bush spec and is ANCAP 5.

Massive opportunity for new Defender, but IFS will probably kill it for serious bush work, if not being available with 16 inch rims doesn't first.

[JDNSW]

If anyone is interested, this is his website Groundwater Imaging (http://groundwaterimaging.com.au)

[lyonsy]

Going through scrub off track only option is 14 ply cross ply tyres o split rims. preferably steel belted if you can soyrce them.

As for vechile their is nothing 5 star ancap that will do it stock.
He basicly needs to put an old fiberglass f truck ambo body on a 70 series ute or g merc. But nether come with split rims to fit the cross ply tyres.

But yeah their is nothing out their that meets what he wants with ancap 5 if he drops that 70 seriers troopy is way to go. So what is more imprtant for him the ancap 5 star or the wagon/panelvan body cause he cant have both

[bblaze]

What about a team of draught horse and a good drey, wasn't many place they couldn't go, good fuel ecomeny, good ground clearance with not much under there to snag
cheers
blaze

[JDNSW]

Going through scrub off track only option is 14 ply cross ply tyres o split rims. preferably steel belted if you can soyrce them.

As for vechile their is nothing 5 star ancap that will do it stock.
He basicly needs to put an old fiberglass f truck ambo body on a 70 series ute or g merc. But nether come with split rims to fit the cross ply tyres.

But yeah their is nothing out their that meets what he wants with ancap 5 if he drops that 70 seriers troopy is way to go. So what is more imprtant for him the ancap 5 star or the wagon/panelvan body cause he cant have both

The ANCAP 5 is a mining industry requirement, not his. Without that, there would be no need to replace the Defenders.

[JDNSW]

What about a team of draught horse and a good drey, wasn't many place they couldn't go, good fuel ecomeny, good ground clearance with not much under there to snag
cheers
blaze

Horse teams do not have particularly good fuel economy, and cannot be operated continuously for ten hours or so per day, have high maintenance requirements, even when not being used, and are kind of slow moving long distances between jobs. Drays usually do not have closed bodywork, and finally, I don't think they have an ANCAP rating!

[trog]

Wooden wheels don't go flat though !

[timax]

G Wagon Pro for me also.
I think the delay in the new defender is because they need to be close to the G wagon in capabilities but a fair bit cheaper and the cant do it.
The great thing to me with the G is that its an Auto. The 70 series once you convert it is up there on price but not as good. G wagon resale for non bling models will also be very good.

[Zeros]

G Wagon Pro for me also.
I think the delay in the new defender is because they need to be close to the G wagon in capabilities but a fair bit cheaper and the cant do it.
The great thing to me with the G is that its an Auto. The 70 series once you convert it is up there on price but not as good. G wagon resale for non bling models will also be very good.

Good point about the auto, plus the standard twin diff locks, rai and tow bar...BUT there doesn't appear to be one in the country, even to test drive. I dropped in to an MB dealer because I was curious and they told me they wouldn't get the Wagon version in without a 10% deposit!

If new Defender does compare to G Prof it would be great, but it seems like the demand for this type of wagon may not be here anymore? Perhaps I am a dinosaur, but it seems very odd. But then I suppose a $30-40k dualcab is a no brainer compared to $80-120k for most buyers. If G Prof was $50k they'd be flying out the door. Hmm

[JDNSW]

Wooden wheels don't go flat though !

Closer to the mark than you may think. Some of his equipment required a trailer with an absolute minimum of conductive components. Wheels were originally wooden discs from ply, with solid rubber tyres, later fibreglass. The only metal in the whole equipment ended up being the wheel bearings. Wheels were replaced by conventional car wheels for road transport. But he had so much trouble getting this trailer approved for road use that he redesigned it to be carried on the road on a conventional large tandem trailer.

[gruntfuttock]

My local repairer will not touch the late model Ranger/BT50 (the five cylinder model). He says there is a design fault in the oil pump and in many vehicles when you drain the oil the oil pump empties itself and will not re-prime. There is also a well documented failure with plenty of internet references of the single undersized battery going flat every few days if not used. A friend has the older four cylinder model and it had a battery the size of an aircraft carrier and a proper second battery position as standard.

JD, has he considered an Iveco?

Yes i have seen this as well, apparently this occurs when you let the oil drain for longer than 5 Minutes before refilling.

I saw a tech bulletin on a blokes desk stating that, and i quote “The interval between draining and refilling and starting the engine must not exceed 5 Minutes”
I would think that there would be some safety margins in this, but that is what it said.

[martnH]

Land cruiser 70 series are now 5 stars because Toyota upgrade them with airbags and stability control.

Yes Toyota upgrade these low tech trucks in 2016 because the miners request a 5 star cruiser on their sites.

[martnH]

Quote "Changes made to the Toyota Landcruiser 70 single cab chassis to enable the increased safety rating include structural improvements to the chassis and occupant cabin, the addition of head-protecting side curtain airbags, driver knee airbag, seat belt pre-tensioners and changes to the bonnet and seat designs."

I am also in the market of a new truck and has been thinking about the 70 series.

[87County]

Apparently some mining companies now use Mahindra because they conform

[lyonsy]

Well if ancap 5 is not needed and his defenders are doing the job why is he replacing or why did he not order 2 new defenders before their production run ended.

And if its not needed then troopy is his cheapest and readily avilable new option or he can go second hand defender or patrol

New defender is not even on a chassi so doing that work will be out of the question anyway unless he plans to turn them ? over often which he is not.

And no their is not much of a market for those vechiles anymore and only 2 that have ancap 5 and only reason they have ancap5 is due to mines.

Sounds like he is having a winge about a car he likes not being made anymore but has not brought a new one for at least 10 years anyway which causes low demand and no market for said vechile

[Vern]

So have i! I just can't bring myself to it. Yet

[Bigbjorn]

Well if ancap 5 is not needed and his defenders are doing the job why is he replacing or why did he not order 2 new defenders before their production run ended.

And if its not needed then troopy is his cheapest and readily avilable new option or he can go second hand defender or patrol

New defender is not even on a chassi so doing that work will be out of the question anyway unless he plans to turn them ? over often which he is not.

And no their is not much of a market for those vechiles anymore and only 2 that have ancap 5 and only reason they have ancap5 is due to mines.

Sounds like he is having a winge about a car he likes not being made anymore but has not brought a new one for at least 10 years anyway which causes low demand and no market for said vechile

Sounds like he buys second-hand and keeps forever. No profit in this type of customer for a manufacturer. I worked for three major manufacturers and a small volume one. We regarded vehicles more than two-three years as "old" and should be replaced with a new one. Second hand buyers are not considered at all in the manufacturers scheme of things. The business is making and selling new ones. I am starting to wonder just how long Toyota will supply models for the rural market in the face of declining demand, rural recession, and longer vehicle life. The urban clients with their up-market SUV's have taken the manufacturer's fancy. The numbers are there and the prices are higher for "St. Margaret's cars" as I have christened them after the expensive private schools where flocks of them gather.

[carjunkieanon]

What about a team of draught horse and a good drey, wasn't many place they couldn't go, good fuel ecomeny, good ground clearance with not much under there to snag
cheers
blaze

Better get mare's then not stallions.

[87County]

...... his cheapest and readily avilable new option or he can go second hand defender or patrol....

Mahindra is way cheaper (I do not have one, and I don't have shares or any other interest in them :) )

[lyonsy]

Do they do a troopy or wagon ? Only seen utes

[solmanic]

Good point about the auto, plus the standard twin diff locks, rai and tow bar...BUT there doesn't appear to be one in the country, even to test drive. I dropped in to an MB dealer because I was curious and they told me they wouldn't get the Wagon version in without a 10% deposit!

If new Defender does compare to G Prof it would be great, but it seems like the demand for this type of wagon may not be here anymore? Perhaps I am a dinosaur, but it seems very odd. But then I suppose a $30-40k dualcab is a no brainer compared to $80-120k for most buyers. If G Prof was $50k they'd be flying out the door. Hmm

MB are trying to coerce me into upgrading my G and I keep telling them I am only interested if they have G-Prof wagon for me to test drive. You are correct in that there are just NONE around to do this in. I got a call from our closest dealer who had a G-Prof wagon in for delivery to a customer so I got a good sticky-beak but no drive unfortunately. The dealer told me that there are "one or two" doing the rounds of the dealerships and they would call me when it was up our way.

Maybe Land Rover are going to try and match the G-Prof spec. to stay in that segment of the market, but they have a loooooong way to go before I would consider their quality to be anywhere near on par. My G-Wagen is "only" a G350, W463 model not the W461 that the Professional is. Still, the solidity and overall quality of absolutely everything on it is way beyond anything I have seen from Land Rover. Things just don't leak, vibrate or fall off it! And opening and closing the doors on a G-Wagen is better than sex.

[weeds]

Well if ancap 5 is not needed and his defenders are doing the job why is he replacing or why did he not order 2 new defenders before their production run ended.


Doesn’t the original post mention his customer is asking for ANCAP5?? Hence the need to find a replacement.

[Zeros]

MB are trying to coerce me into upgrading my G and I keep telling them I am only interested if they have G-Prof wagon for me to test drive. You are correct in that there are just NONE around to do this in. I got a call from our closest dealer who had a G-Prof wagon in for delivery to a customer so I got a good sticky-beak but no drive unfortunately. The dealer told me that there are "one or two" doing the rounds of the dealerships and they would call me when it was up our way.

Maybe Land Rover are going to try and match the G-Prof spec. to stay in that segment of the market, but they have a loooooong way to go before I would consider their quality to be anywhere near on par. My G-Wagen is "only" a G350, W463 model not the W461 that the Professional is. Still, the solidity and overall quality of absolutely everything on it is way beyond anything I have seen from Land Rover. Things just don't leak, vibrate or fall off it! And opening and closing the doors on a G-Wagen is better than sex.

Intriguing. Thanks Solmanic. Great to hear about your experience of the G on this forum.

I met someone the other day who has a Defender Puma AND a G 350! He likes driving the Defender more...but maybe just placating me 😳

How ow did the G Professional Wagon compare when you saw it, against your 350?

Itvreally is the only competitor giving me hope that the next Defender might be good!

[martnH]

Check out the price for a second hand defender.
I feels like I am a jerk using the defender as an off-road vehicle while someone else would appreciate her way way way more than I do!

Your mate will be much better off just to replace all defenders with a bunch of new great walls utes (probably not 5 stars...)plus extra cash

[JDNSW]

My son's next door neighbour has a Great Wall. After his experience, I don't think I could sleep if I suggested one of them!

[Bigbjorn]

What about a team of draught horse and a good drey, wasn't many place they couldn't go, good fuel ecomeny, good ground clearance with not much under there to snag
cheers
blaze

Not as silly as it sounds. My grandfather did the Winton-Boulia and return mail run weekly from 1908 with a two horse light wagonette pulling a modified sulky to carry feed for the horses. This was in the Federation drought after Cobb & Co relinquished the contract because of lack of feed. The "roads" then were no more than ruts across the landscape. The family did this run with horses until 1918 when they bought two Buick fours. Into the 1940's when the tracks were impassable due to wet weather on the black soil plains they used horses and a light wagonette to get the mails through.

[martnH]

My son's next door neighbour has a Great Wall. After his experience, I don't think I could sleep if I suggested one of them!How about Foton Tunland. It has a Cummins engine. It's also dirt cheap (well for its size....

If your son's next door neighbor love that great wall the way we love our defender, there will be no complaints whatsoever.....

[DiscoMick]

I know a family who had two Great Walls. The wagon rattled to bits on bad roads and was sold, but he kept the ute to run around the farm.
They are based on Mitsubishi's.

[ozscott]

Are they really based on Mitsibishi? Based on as in a Chinese take on them or actually using old Mitsubishi presses for chassis etc but still Chinese steel and Chinese copies of chassis, steering etc etc. Really Mitsi and Gr8 Wall shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence. Mitsubishi tend not to fall apart easily...

Cheers

[rar110]

Good point about the auto, plus the standard twin diff locks, rai and tow bar...BUT there doesn't appear to be one in the country, even to test drive. I dropped in to an MB dealer because I was curious and they told me they wouldn't get the Wagon version in without a 10% deposit!

If new Defender does compare to G Prof it would be great, but it seems like the demand for this type of wagon may not be here anymore? Perhaps I am a dinosaur, but it seems very odd. But then I suppose a $30-40k dualcab is a no brainer compared to $80-120k for most buyers. If G Prof was $50k they'd be flying out the door. Hmm

If the G Pro was $90k they would be flying out the door with auto, and lockers. So they are probably about $20k over priced.

[Bigbjorn]

Are they really based on Mitsibishi? Based on as in a Chinese take on them or actually using old Mitsubishi presses for chassis etc but still Chinese steel and Chinese copies of chassis, steering etc etc. Really Mitsi and Gr8 Wall shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence. Mitsubishi tend not to fall apart easily...

Cheers

You have got to be kidding. Or are you too young to remember Sigma and Magna. Greatest piles of pus ever inflicted on the Australian motorist. I once managed a fleet that had Sigma as rep's cars. Sydney based senior management caught "four cylinder economy" fever and lumbered us with Sigma and Meteor. Rubbish cars, both of them. Then came Magna which should have been sold with a spare transmission, not a spare wheel.

[1nando]

Isuzu mu-x?? Despite what people might think they're a tough little vehicle and built like a truck. They're built to work and they'll happily do it all day long. Just needs a 2 inch lift, decent tyres and bullbar.
The engines are down tuned to run forever, this is typical japanese truck manufacturing mentality and it works, reliable

[ozscott]

BigJ I was thinking Pajero and Triton. We are talking 4wds. I am sufficiently aged to recall the buckets of poo you refer to and have driven both when they were newly released

Cheers

[cjc_td5]

The OKA may not be ANCAP5 rated but it was Minespec when designed and built.

[rar110]

Maybe one of these could fit the bill sometime in the future.
About Mobius



– Mobius Motors (https://mobiusmotors.com/pages/about-mobius)

[martnH]

The great wall only used mishibishi petrol engine. The diesel engine is developed and manufactured by themselves

In fact the great wall ute is basically a Isuzu d-max.Chassis is the almost same (liscences by Isuzu.....

I probably won't ever drive a great wall but note this, the great wall diesels engine produce more power that the defender 2.2...2.4 td5 and those before...

Cheers

[JDNSW]

..............

If your son's next door neighbor love that great wall the way we love our defender, there will be no complaints whatsoever.....

Its prize performance was an unscheduled holiday of three weeks in Broken Hill while waiting for brake parts to be flown in from China. At that stage its total mileage was about the distance from Yass to Broken Hill. Most of the time I have visited my son, the Great Wall is not in evidence, and careful questions indicate it is at the dealer.

[rick130]

Google Ranger/BT50 oil pump. There are dozens of references on the net and not only from whinging owners but from reputable trade organisations. From what I read fifteen minutes is asking for trouble. Most suggest getting the oil in in 5-7 minutes to be safe and others say as soon as the outlet starts to drip as opposed to flow, screw the drain plug in and start pouring in the new oil.

Also Google Ranger/BT50 flat battery. Dozens of references on the net to this problem also.

As I said, we ran a fleet, not google heresay and some above 100,000km now and out of warranty.
None of the mechanics i knew that serviced them had an issue, it's just another car.

[V8Ian]

The BT50 3.2 oil drain issue is a non event if you refill within 15 minutes.

Everyone knows about it, there was a TSB very early on detailing it.

My old employer ran a fleet of them, the only issues we had was two fuel pumps lunching themselves, picked up during warranty servicing and again, something Ford/Mazda were aware of and looking for.
The trick is to change and half fill the filter before a quick oil drain.

[V8Ian]

The G-wagon does look like it is worth looking at - are Iveco and Oka ANCP 5, and do they come with a full length closed body?

The biggest downside to the G-wagon is, of course, the price - I don't know what he paid for his Defenders (a few years ago now), but I believe both were second hand - the older one is a 300tdi, and the newer an ex-army Td5. Both would have been a small fraction of the cost of a G-wagon.

As an aside, an indication as to the sort of driving he uses them for is that a major concern of his is finding tyres that don't stake as easily as the ones he's tried (a typical selection of the tyres you would find used on Defenders).
ADF never bought TD5s, they were trialed and rejected in favour of Isuzu.

[rick130]

And opening and closing the doors on a G-Wagen is better than sex.


:o:Thump:

[V8Ian]

Are they really based on Mitsibishi? Based on as in a Chinese take on them or actually using old Mitsubishi presses for chassis etc but still Chinese steel and Chinese copies of chassis, steering etc etc. Really Mitsi and Gr8 Wall shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence. Mitsubishi tend not to fall apart easily...

Cheers
But Tritons did bend chassis.

[ozscott]

True mate. Trouble with having wheels so far forward. I have heard that Mitsu have reinforced the current model Triton. Cheers

[V8Ian]

MB are trying to coerce me into upgrading my G and I keep telling them I am only interested if they have G-Prof wagon for me to test drive. You are correct in that there are just NONE around to do this in. I got a call from our closest dealer who had a G-Prof wagon in for delivery to a customer so I got a good sticky-beak but no drive unfortunately. The dealer told me that there are "one or two" doing the rounds of the dealerships and they would call me when it was up our way.

Maybe Land Rover are going to try and match the G-Prof spec. to stay in that segment of the market, but they have a loooooong way to go before I would consider their quality to be anywhere near on par. My G-Wagen is "only" a G350, W463 model not the W461 that the Professional is. Still, the solidity and overall quality of absolutely everything on it is way beyond anything I have seen from Land Rover. Things just don't leak, vibrate or fall off it! And opening and closing the doors on a G-Wagen is better than sex.
Been a while, eh? [wink11]

[ozscott]

Over 2 tonn payload for tray back...man that must be stiff. Impressive load though.

Cheers

[rick130]

ADF never bought TD5s, they were trialed and rejected in favour of Isuzu.

They used a couple in the early 2000's.

The Perenties were going to be re-engined with the TD5 in the late nineties/early 2000's but the Poms couldn't make them electronically 'quiet', apparently they spent a lot of sterling trying to do it and failed.
A good mate was tasked here to try it, and he and his little team did it with a new loom for under A$100,000.
Just as it was being presented to the ADF, Ford bought Land Rover and military was shelved.

The UK wouldn't believe it, so LRA flew him there with the loom in his case to prove it to them. [bigrolf]

[ozscott]

So Rick in your experience the Ranger is a good bit of kit?

Cheers

[SSmith]

ADF never bought TD5s, they were trialed and rejected in favour of Isuzu.

Edit: Rick beat me to it

[Bigbjorn]

As I said, we ran a fleet, not google heresay and some above 100,000km now and out of warranty.
None of the mechanics i knew that serviced them had an issue, it's just another car.

Lots of input on the net from very ****ed off owners and from reputable tradespeople. Manufacturer service bulletins have been issued pertaining to both well established faults.

Not hearsay at all.

[rar110]

ADF never bought TD5s, they were trialed and rejected in favour of Isuzu.

I’m pretty sure the ADF owned them. They were in service.
TD5 Remediation Vehicles -REMLR (http://www.remlr.com/110-td5.html)

[rick130]

Lots of input on the net from very ****ed off owners and from reputable tradespeople. Manufacturer service bulletins have been issued pertaining to both well established faults.

Not hearsay at all.

I mentioned the oil TSB, it came out very early on when a few lunched engines!

[rick130]

So Rick in your experience the Ranger is a good bit of kit?

Cheers

Much better than the Hilux I use ATM!

Good and bad points like most vehicles.
The Mazda's we used couldn't handle the weight of a steel tray and tool boxes with gear in them, they all had to have leaves added to the rear.
I think the couple of Rangers we had needed the rear suspension upgraded too.
I hate the MT82 'box, it's so bloody notchy, but the synchro's are good and I do like having six speeds.
The engine is nice and torquey and gets reasonable economy.
Pretty good seats for a work ute, personal use was part of my package and I did a few 11 hour days [bigwhistle]
Quiet for a ute but not as quiet as the D2.
Re noise uninformed will vouch for the difference between the Hilux and Mazda during a phone call!
The bluetooth/audio/synching system is crap! Hard to use and does weird **** at times. I think the Hilux is better there.

Had an issue with the cruise control a couple of times.
The dealer couldn't fix it, but an independent we used had it sorted in a couple of minutes! It was to do with the clutch switch.
I blew an intercooler hose one day so out came the silicon tape. 80,000km and blowing hoses? Hmm.....
I don't think the ABS is tuned as well as the D2, believe it or not.
Hill starts are a breeze in the manual, tap the brake pedal at a set of lights or stop sign and the rear brakes lock on so you don't have to heel/toe the brake and throttle on hill starts.
With the torque they have you can have some weird stuff happen with the TC at times in the wet.
The stability control takes all the fun out of having all that torque on tap, and none of our vehicles had an LSD so if you turned it off all that happened was the inside rear wheel would light up in the wet.
Yes, I'm an over 50 hoon!
Mazda spare prices are insane! Get parts through Ford. eg. I snapped the fill piece off the top of the gearknob, it's just a plastic insert with the shift pattern engraved. $85 thankyou....
Our corporate affairs manager was gobsmacked.
Actually I think one of our blokes might've done a diff too ?
When I left Canberra my car had about 80,000km on it and a sight clutch shudder on occasion. I'm not sure how good the dual mass flywheels are standing up, but all our vehicles were flogged, and mine was heavily loaded with tools and spares, I would've carried 4-500kg in gear on top of the weight of the steel tray and two big side boxes all the time.
I think the average fuel economy over the life of the car was 10.7l/100km according to the trip computer, and we used the hi-rider suspension pack and I always had ladders on top.

I've only driven one 'Rok and really liked it, it's quite a step up IMO but it was a very short drive of the then MD's new V6. The auto is very impressive and they get up and boogey!

[JDNSW]

ADF never bought TD5s, they were trialed and rejected in favour of Isuzu.

The TD5 did not exist when the Isuzu was adopted, by over ten years.

The ADF got a small number of TD5s to supplement the fleet around 2000. These were the first to be sold of the Landrover fleet.

[solmanic]

Intriguing. Thanks Solmanic. Great to hear about your experience of the G on this forum.

I met someone the other day who has a Defender Puma AND a G 350! He likes driving the Defender more...but maybe just placating me 😳

How ow did the G Professional Wagon compare when you saw it, against your 350?

Itvreally is the only competitor giving me hope that the next Defender might be good!

The G Professional is much more like a Defender. No molded floor coverings, only removable rubber mats and drainage bungs. It's a pity I couldn't drive it as I really wanted to test the cabin noise levels with no underbody sound deadening (again, much like a Defender). The engine noise in the cabin however was a lot less than I remember in my Defender. Yes, driving a Defender is much more engaging but I put most of that down to the fact that it is a manual and very leaky (both hydraulically and acoustically). Being inside the G350 is like being in a mobile bomb shelter with very little road noise and only some wind noise at highway speeds. If you wind the windows down off-road then the G gives you just as much outside sensory involvement with the benefit of an auto transmission. On road the G lets you do 1000km easily whilst the noise in the Defender causes much more fatigue.

I got my G350 for a bargain price and have unfortunately become quite accustomed to the comfy, luxury interior toys. It's going to have to be a really, really good deal from MB to get me out of it and into a professional but I also hold out hope that Land Rover might get the new Defender design right and be worth considering.

[crash]

What about a jeep wrangler unlimited? If he wants lockers get a Rubicon version.
Except for the Jeep Wranglers and 76 series, all new 4wds have IFS, this also includes the new G wagon.

[ozscott]

Crash without going back and rereading from memory it was a.commercial operator so if he carries more than a cheese sandwich the Rubi-con is out.

Cheers

[Tins]

I was going to say ex-mil G-wagen, although I'm not sure they have many wagon body types, as the Land Rovers they are selling are pick-ups, also only models from 1987-1998 are on sale now so might have to wait awhile.

Not sure the Military were to concerned about ANCAP ratings though.

[Tins]

And opening and closing the doors on a G-Wagen is better than sex.

Perhaps you might consider getting a partner...[bighmmm][bigrolf]

[Tins]

Are they really based on Mitsibishi? Based on as in a Chinese take on them or actually using old Mitsubishi presses for chassis etc but still Chinese steel and Chinese copies of chassis, steering etc etc. Really Mitsi and Gr8 Wall shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence. Mitsubishi tend not to fall apart easily...

Cheers

They are based on one or two generations ago Mitsus. They are not close on build, but that will probably change, as China will hate being seen as second rate. Have a look in around ten years.

Great Wall was appalled at the reaction when their LC200 rival, the Haval, I think it was the H9, fared so badly in the very same ANCAP tests mentioned here. I'd watch China very carefully. Things are changing.

[Tins]

ADF never bought TD5s, they were trialed and rejected in favour of Isuzu.

What car does Weeds have, then?

[Tins]

You have got to be kidding. Or are you too young to remember Sigma and Magna. Greatest piles of pus ever inflicted on the Australian motorist. I once managed a fleet that had Sigma as rep's cars. Sydney based senior management caught "four cylinder economy" fever and lumbered us with Sigma and Meteor. Rubbish cars, both of them. Then came Magna which should have been sold with a spare transmission, not a spare wheel.

You forget "The first Four Cylinder Limousine", AKA the Nissan Bluebird. I worked at Nissan then. I pinched one of those stickers for our old Morry minor, as it seemed more appropriate than that horrible 200B replacement.

[martnH]

Its prize performance was an unscheduled holiday of three weeks in Broken Hill while waiting for brake parts to be flown in from China. At that stage its total mileage was about the distance from Yass to Broken Hill. Most of the time I have visited my son, the Great Wall is not in evidence, and careful questions indicate it is at the dealer.Maybe he should try the LDV T60

Chinese ute, ANCAP 5star

Cousin of Land Rover.. Historically

[JDNSW]

Maybe he should try the LDV T60

Chinese ute, ANCAP 5star

Cousin of Land Rover.. Historically

I had a bit of a look - can't find key data - availability of full length hardtop, ground clearance, approach and departure angles, towing capacity, gear ratios etc, let alone more details such as suspension travel.

On the face of it, looks like just yet another dual cab. Pictures suggest ground clearance, approach and departure angles nowhere near the Defender.

[Zeros]

I had a bit of a look - can't find key data - availability of full length hardtop, ground clearance, approach and departure angles, towing capacity, gear ratios etc, let alone more details such as suspension travel.

On the face of it, looks like just yet another dual cab. Pictures suggest ground clearance, approach and departure angles nowhere near the Defender.

Specs: LDV T60 Ute - Specifactions - LDV Automotive Australia (https://www.ldvautomotive.com.au/vehicles/ldv-t60-ute/specifications/)

its a mid duty dualcab clone

[Bigbjorn]

If he is repeatedly staking tyres perhaps he needs to consider tyres of sturdier construction like light/medium truck cross ply, say 8.25 x 16 x 12 ply used on 3-4 tonne trucks.

When I posted the original above I neglected to mention that to use this class of tyre one would most likely need to go to 8" split ring rims. Any wheel works could put these on LR centres. I don't think any of this size is available in wire armoured but one never knows. A check around the specialist tyre distributors might find something.

[V8Ian]

8.25 would wreck the low gearing, 7.50 would be a better option.

[Saitch]

Would split rims on such a vehicle be deemed safe in today's work place?

[martnH]

I had a bit of a look - can't find key data - availability of full length hardtop, ground clearance, approach and departure angles, towing capacity, gear ratios etc, let alone more details such as suspension travel.

On the face of it, looks like just yet another dual cab. Pictures suggest ground clearance, approach and departure angles nowhere near the Defender.The specs are pretty good.

The engine is almost the same as the one in Colorado/trailblazer and Jeep wrangler 2.8 Lt diesel liscences by VM.

I guess what it reverent to OP is that LDV T60 is is ANCAP 5 star and cost less than $30k...

[JDNSW]

The specs are pretty good.

The engine is almost the same as the one in Colorado/trailblazer and Jeep wrangler 2.8 Lt diesel liscences by VM.

I guess what it reverent to OP is that LDV T60 is is ANCAP 5 star and cost less than $30k...

But it does not appear to come in a full length hardtop! And approach, departure and ramp breakover angles are not comparable to a Defender.

At least it has adequate load carrying and towing ability. Couldn't see a fuel capacity.

[DiscoMick]

The G Professional is much more like a Defender. No molded floor coverings, only removable rubber mats and drainage bungs. It's a pity I couldn't drive it as I really wanted to test the cabin noise levels with no underbody sound deadening (again, much like a Defender). The engine noise in the cabin however was a lot less than I remember in my Defender. Yes, driving a Defender is much more engaging but I put most of that down to the fact that it is a manual and very leaky (both hydraulically and acoustically). Being inside the G350 is like being in a mobile bomb shelter with very little road noise and only some wind noise at highway speeds. If you wind the windows down off-road then the G gives you just as much outside sensory involvement with the benefit of an auto transmission. On road the G lets you do 1000km easily whilst the noise in the Defender causes much more fatigue.

I got my G350 for a bargain price and have unfortunately become quite accustomed to the comfy, luxury interior toys. It's going to have to be a really, really good deal from MB to get me out of it and into a professional but I also hold out hope that Land Rover might get the new Defender design right and be worth considering.
My Puma Defender is not very noisy. It does actually have some noise insulation, and I added more.

From memory the OP said the guy goes cross country surveying for mining companies, who are now insisting their contractors use 5 star ANCAP rated vehicles.
Hopefully the next Defender will meet his requirements.

[fitzy]

Beadell Tours : MRF Tyres - Bias & All Steel Radials (http://www.beadelltours.com.au/mrf.html)
Some tyre options

[cjc_td5]

I'm not sure of the logic of requiring ANCAP5 crash protection but insisting on a full cabin layout. Unless all cargo is well secured you will be killed by your equipment bouncing around the cabin in a crash big enough to use all 5 stars. This is perhaps why a separate cargo area is more common with these commercial vehicles?

[JDNSW]

I'm not sure of the logic of requiring ANCAP5 crash protection but insisting on a full cabin layout. Unless all cargo is well secured you will be killed by your equipment bouncing around the cabin in a crash big enough to use all 5 stars. This is perhaps why a separate cargo area is more common with these commercial vehicles?

Possibly. But why expect logic? They are requirements from to totally unrelated sources. The full length hardtop is required by the person doing the job, who needs to have the ability to have temporary cabling (depending on type of measurement) between equipment in the back and readouts visible from the driving position, as well as a lockable storage capable of accomodating large items. The ANCAAP requirement is a separate requirement by a small, but potentially valuable proportion of his clients. It is of dubious advantage during actual operation, where speed would rarely exceed 5kph, and is simply there to protect the client for on-road driving.

[weeds]

JD, what his competitions using (assuming he is not the only person offering this service).

I sure there is a work around the need for a Hardtop as there seems to be little demand for them.

[JDNSW]

As far as I am aware, the technology he supplies is unique, the only service doing this sort of geophysics as a continuous operation operated by one man. Obviously gives a real competitive advantage, but it is a niche market.

[Shoogs]

Every geophysics/data collection/down-hole survey etc... company I have ever used/seen use Troopies...

[Vern]

Every geophysics/data collection/down-hole survey etc... company I have ever used/seen use Troopies...Don't think troopies are ancap5, think its only the single cab chassis

[Shoogs]

Don't think troopies are ancap5, think its only the single cab chassis

As RM I just sign them off as exempt, like many light vehicles for short term work on mines, the risk profile is low in most instances.

[Vern]

As RM I just sign them off as exempt, like many light vehicles for short term work on mines, the risk profile is low in most instances.Good that you sign them off, but others might not, and there goes his contract. Its all pretty silly though, of all the machines on sites, that can do a lot more damage than an LV without an ancap rating[emoji4]

[JDNSW]

So far he has been allowed, but the pressure is increasing. Probably looking now that one of his Defenders (300Tdi) is getting pretty knocked about, and costing a lot for maintenance - complaints about things like door lock push buttons falling off. I don't think it has ever been under cover in its life, so the plastic bits are suffering badly from sunshine.

[Tote]

I spent Saturday at the test track at the 4wd Spectacular on Saturday and I'm even more perplexed as to the answer to the question. I drove the Disco 5 for an hour or so and just like the Disco 4 it is very comfortable and incredibly capable, a different side to the same coin as the Sahara.
Most of the dual cabs were uninspiring in comparison to my 130 that I drove around the track when it was being prepared, and most were not in any significant way better in comfort.
I did do a couple of laps in the Dodge Ram they had there and although it is in no way suitable for my requirements I suspect that I could get used to one very quickly as long as I didn't want to take it to the high country or park it in town. Very nice interior, very spacious, oodles of grunt and enough clearance for the track if you put a better set of side steps on it.
It would be nice to think that LR could do a new Defender that takes the experience of driving a D5 and puts it in a dual cab ute with enough room and a nice interior, I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

*none the wiser*

Regards,
Tote

[V8Ian]

How about Delicia or Tarago 4x4? I'm ignorant of their weight and tow ratings, or if they have ANCAP ratings.

[JDNSW]

Do they have low range? necessary for continuous low speed. Also, diesel?

[V8Ian]

I believe at least the Mitsubishi has, John. Paul, Jonesfam is the guru on these.

[Zeros]

Ford Everest?

[superquag]

UAZ ? Rugged, reliable, capable - oops, sorry, no ANCAP rating...

[JDNSW]

Ford Everest?

As far as I can see, no low range, only 750kg load, although towing is fairly good. Another possible issue (that applies to a lot of the other suggestions as well) - can you get LT or other stake resistant tyres in the right size? And if you can, is it legal to run them? Apparently no manual transmission either.

[martnH]

How about JMC ute (another Chinese ute
The engine is (surprise surprise) a Ford tdci 2.4. Comes with manual transmission.

So by engine,
Cummins engine - Foton ute
Ford tdci engine - JMC ute
GM/Holden Colorado 2.8 VM diesel - TDV ute

All Chinese all diesel with manual transmission. All under $30,000.....

Assuming these Chinese Utes will last three years, I think they are excellent choices.... TDV T60 is ANCAP 5 stars too
Comes with warranty so big saving on maintenance compared to a defender

If you read about Land Rover jaguar's strategy you will know they no longer interested in making working vehicles.

[trout1105]

The Blokes at Hema that do the mapping seem to have no problems getting around despite not using Landrovers [bigwhistle]

[Shoogs]

How about JMC ute (another Chinese ute
The engine is (surprise surprise) a Ford tdci 2.4. Comes with manual transmission.

So by engine,
Cummins engine - Foton ute
Ford tdci engine - JMC ute
GM/Holden Colorado 2.8 VM diesel - TDV ute

All Chinese all diesel with manual transmission. All under $30,000.....

Assuming these Chinese Utes will last three years, I think they are excellent choices.... TDV T60 is ANCAP 5 stars too
Comes with warranty so big saving on maintenance compared to a defender

If you read about Land Rover jaguar's strategy you will know they no longer interested in making working vehicles.

Don't forget the Mahindra a very impressive package for 29k... and very Defenderish...

[donh54]

How about JMC ute (another Chinese ute
The engine is (surprise surprise) a Ford tdci 2.4. Comes with manual transmission.

So by engine,
Cummins engine - Foton ute
Ford tdci engine - JMC ute
GM/Holden Colorado 2.8 VM diesel - TDV ute

All Chinese all diesel with manual transmission. All under $30,000.....

Assuming these Chinese Utes will last three years, I think they are excellent choices.... TDV T60 is ANCAP 5 stars too
Comes with warranty so big saving on maintenance compared to a defender

If you read about Land Rover jaguar's strategy you will know they no longer interested in making working vehicles.

Reading the original post, the OP is not interested in utes! Needs a station wagon-type vehicle for off-road use, as in OFF ROAD, not on dirt/gravel/formed tracks. IFS can be quite a handicap in real bush driving.
One (at least) of his major clients is caving in to the OHS mob regarding requiring ANCAP5 safety rating. Amazing how most companies hire contractors to do things so they don't have to worry about duty of care issues, but this lot want to push the point.

Personally, I'd approach that client and tell him that since his conditions mean I'd have to buy something like a G Wagen, with their initial high buying price, increased maintenance costs, high depreciation, etc, my price for the work I do for them will need to at least quadruple!

[DiscoMick]

ANCAP5 is now required by insurers, plus I imagine work safety schemes would require highest possible safety standards to minimise claims. It's all about saving money for insurers, not safety for people.
I assume he might have no choice but to go a Toyota 70 series with a custom back. The rear track would have to be widened to match the front.

[Shoogs]

Reading the original post, the OP is not interested in utes! Needs a station wagon-type vehicle for off-road use, as in OFF ROAD, not on dirt/gravel/formed tracks. IFS can be quite a handicap in real bush driving.
One (at least) of his major clients is caving in to the OHS mob regarding requiring ANCAP5 safety rating. Amazing how most companies hire contractors to do things so they don't have to worry about duty of care issues, but this lot want to push the point.

Personally, I'd approach that client and tell him that since his conditions mean I'd have to buy something like a G Wagen, with their initial high buying price, increased maintenance costs, high depreciation, etc, my price for the work I do for them will need to at least quadruple!

Yep but lets be honest we all like to go off on a tangent with any thread...

His only choice is a Troopcarrier, it is really only the big players who 'insist' on ANCAP ratings, though read the fine print, with a task based risk assessment most issues can be overcome as I have mentioned earlier in this thread, the Registered Mine Manager has the final say and I can assure you is more interested in the risk profile and the mitigation process than his companies policy, approach the HSE department and Manager with the issue and both parties should look for the solution, that is my experience in Western Australia as an RM/QM... for many years... Exemptions from the Mine Regulations are made on a regular basis. Companies will pay for safe appropriate machinery but not outlandish requests.

[Robmacca]

That or a Troopie that had been previously mentioned. Has a Roof length similar to the Defender as well. If u have some spare $$, then just convert the rear to Coils and fix the track difference at the same time and it will still come in under the price of the G-Wgn.....

The Troopie is one of the vehicles on my future retirement vehicle list.....




Toyota 76 series wagon in gxl spec for the factory lockers, around $70k+ new.

Bullet proof single turbo v8.

IMO the best serious off-road tourer out there (for the money).

Definitely what I would have bought if I didn’t love the td5 110.

Paul.

[scarry]

As far as I can see, no low range, only 750kg load, although towing is fairly good. Another possible issue (that applies to a lot of the other suggestions as well) - can you get LT or other stake resistant tyres in the right size? And if you can, is it legal to run them? Apparently no manual transmission either.

Ford Everest,

Low range,rear locker,17" rims,heaps of accessories available.

LT tyres would be fine.

But not really a work vehicle.

As i have said before,Tojo 70 series is the only real option.

No vehicle is perfect,they are all a compromise.

[martnH]

Reading the original post, the OP is not interested in utes! Needs a station wagon-type vehicle for off-road use, as in OFF ROAD, not on dirt/gravel/formed tracks. IFS can be quite a handicap in real bush driving.
One (at least) of his major clients is caving in to the OHS mob regarding requiring ANCAP5 safety rating. Amazing how most companies hire contractors to do things so they don't have to worry about duty of care issues, but this lot want to push the point.

Personally, I'd approach that client and tell him that since his conditions mean I'd have to buy something like a G Wagen, with their initial high buying price, increased maintenance costs, high depreciation, etc, my price for the work I do for them will need to at least quadruple!Hehe yes it's more of a dream car thread now

from a business point of view, a G wagon is a bad idea. So does a 76 wagon with expensive modifications.

Don't get me wrong. G wagon is great car But it is very stupid if used as a commercial vehicle, especially off road. I know little about finance but trust me, you will never want a negative equity on the a financed car....
The 76 wagon maybe better but it is still possible to put them in negative equity..

If I were OP, I will sell the defenders (as mentioned before costly maintenance and will not meet ANCAP requirement), buy something cheap but ANCAP 5 stars so that you will have maintenance-free trucks for at least three years with potentialy extra cash on hand. Mind you Interest rate will go up soon in 2018.
Cheers
Martin

[Zeros]

As far as I can see, no low range, only 750kg load, although towing is fairly good. Another possible issue (that applies to a lot of the other suggestions as well) - can you get LT or other stake resistant tyres in the right size? And if you can, is it legal to run them? Apparently no manual transmission either.

Really? no low range? Well if that's true, they're rubbish then!

[DiscoMick]

That or a Troopie that had been previously mentioned. Has a Roof length similar to the Defender as well. If u have some spare $$, then just convert the rear to Coils and fix the track difference at the same time and it will still come in under the price of the G-Wgn.....

The Troopie is one of the vehicles on my future retirement vehicle list.....
Can a Troopy be ANCAP 5 star?

[trout1105]

You can rip the 2nd and 3rd row seats out of a Disco and you have a Troopy with "Class" [biggrin][thumbsupbig]

[Vern]

Can a Troopy be ANCAP 5 star?I don't think it is, only the single cab chassis is from memory

[Tins]

No idea of suitability, but how about an IVECO Daily 4X4? Would tick a lot of the boxes. Dunno about it's ANCAP rating, or body configs available. But they are very capable.

[Robmacca]

Can a Troopy be ANCAP 5 star?

For me personally, I'm not really interested in this ANCAP 5star rating for 4WD's..... I don't care if a car has it or not and to date I've never owned one and never needed one & never had any problems either....

[cripesamighty]

ANCAP ratings are derived from striking a vehicle the same size (passive & active features designed for this) so can be a bit problematic in the real world when you hit something smaller/bigger. That unfortunately meams a Suzuki Swift with a 5 star safety rating won't do so well against a dozer with a zero star rating. Worth thinking about by the RM/QM sticklers when you probably should be allowing certain exemptions on a mine site.....

[Tins]

As far as I can see, no low range,

Sure about that? They are basically a Ranger wagon. Pretty sure the 4WD Ranger has low range. There are, of course, 2WD Everests. Maybe that's it.

That said, I can't see how an Everest is any better suited than, say, a Prado. That is, not at all.

[Shoogs]

[
Worth thinking about by the RM/QM sticklers when you probably should be allowing certain exemptions on a mine site.....[/QUOTE]

Correct, I remind all on mine sites that might has right, and you should be driving on the mine in fear of your life... in an LV whether you are right or wrong if you are run over by a 400t truck you are dead... ANCAP means nothing...

Someone also mentioned about insurance, this is not correct, insurance is about managing risk, no insurer I have ever dealt with is worried about whether or not we have ANCAP rated vehicles, they worry about mitigation, so lessening LV/HV interaction by simply not going into the mine, clearly understood and followed process and competencies, vehicle hierarchy etc... as examples. With drones and cameras there is less and less reason for people to drive within the mine now days, I usually build a central look out where people can observe.
It has all gone a little overboard over the past 10 years with negligible effect on safety performance, I work both in Western Australia and in developing nations, and most times I feel safer over here because of an autocratic, logical and practical approach to vehicles and driving on mines, we separate LV and HV and have very strict criteria for interactions.
It is no wonder there is such massive investment in autonomy.

[Tins]

Correct, I remind all on mine sites that might has right, and you should be driving on the mine in fear of your life... in an LV whether you are right or wrong if you are run over by a 400t truck you are dead... ANCAP means nothing...

Someone also mentioned about insurance, this is not correct, insurance is about managing risk, no insurer I have ever dealt with is worried about whether or not we have ANCAP rated vehicles, they worry about mitigation, so lessening LV/HV interaction by simply not going into the mine, clearly understood and followed process and competencies, vehicle hierarchy etc... as examples. With drones and cameras there is less and less reason for people to drive within the mine now days, I usually build a central look out where people can observe.
It has all gone a little overboard over the past 10 years with negligible effect on safety performance, I work both in Western Australia and in developing nations, and most times I feel safer over here because of an autocratic, logical and practical approach to vehicles and driving on mines, we separate LV and HV and have very strict criteria for interactions.
It is no wonder there is such massive investment in autonomy.

Sure. But didn't the OP talk about geo surveys off site?

[JDNSW]

Yes - but one recent job was mapping possible underground water leaks from a tailings dam within the actual mine area.

[spudfan]

Is the Fores Ibex still available to buy? Expensive but it might suit.

[Zeros]

Let's face it, unless your job involves fluffing the photocopier or delivering fairy floss there are no Ancap5 4x4 wagons suitable! ...the next Defender is looking good even though it's invisable!

[Witchdoctor]

Currently looking at getting one of the Ibex onto the SEVS list. That will then allow me an easier path to import into Australia.

Very impressive & fully custom for the customer & built to Euro 5.
The image is a render of the one I'm looking at, its 120inch. These use all Defender gear but customer can pick what ever engine & gearbox combination.

The new IBEX F8 (http://www.ibexf8.com)

Drop David a line, very easy guys to talk to.

Cheers
Dave

[JDNSW]

Looks, on paper at least, as if it would do the job - but I suspect it will be very expensive, even more than a GWagon. And I doubt there is a local dealer!

[Witchdoctor]

There is no dealer, these are a private import vehicle.
As for price, I'm still waiting on a final turn key price but so far we have calculated drive away would be about the price of a bog standard extra cab ute 4x4, that includes importing cost.

The calculation is worked after I got a kit price from Ibex.

We are looking at the Cummins 2.8 crate engine mated to the 6 speed defender box. with wash out cab, the rear is all open like a wagon. Oh, it comes with a rear door on the passengers side only, to make it a little like an extra cab.


Cheers
Dave

[DiscoMick]

There is no dealer, these are a private import vehicle.
As for price, I'm still waiting on a final turn key price but so far we have calculated drive away would be about the price of a bog standard extra cab ute 4x4, that includes importing cost.

The calculation is worked after I got a kit price from Ibex.

We are looking at the Cummins 2.8 crate engine mated to the 6 speed defender box. with wash out cab, the rear is all open like a wagon. Oh, it comes with a rear door on the passengers side only, to make it a little like an extra cab.


Cheers
DaveThat's very interesting. Please keep us posted on your progress.

[ozscott]

Pitty these are not available in Oz. Wouldn't have the suspension travel but would go the distance. Cheers

Meet the One Million Mile Toyota Tundra Still with Its Original V8! - YouTube (https://youtu.be/TL7fyyUNRmA)

[JDNSW]

Latest is he is working out how he can operate with a ute! He did not think much of a personal import.

[AndyG]

An isuzu canter4*4 with a custom body, walk through? is good value, and ANCAP exempt i believe, same as the mine dump trucks :-P