Bathurst 12 hr.

[V8Ian]

An Australian international event, broadcast far and wide overseas. The standard of flag marshaling is embarrassingly third rate.

[Pickles2]

Didn't have time until just now to watch, just seen the Bentley get taken out whilst in 3rd place!
Obviously I prefer Supercars, but this race is growing in stature every year, with no shortage of overseas drivers/teams relishing the chance to race at Bathurst, which the English commentator described as being more testing & exciting than the Nurburgring.
Pickles.

[V8Ian]

The safety car will be out of warranty, kilometer wise, by the end of the race. [bigsad]

[rick130]

The safety car will be out of warranty, kilometer wise, by the end of the race. [bigsad]

everytime I've watched all I've seen is the safety car.....

Or a car brushing, or worse a wall, needing, you guessed it.....

[Pickles2]

The safety car will be out of warranty, kilometer wise, by the end of the race. [bigsad]
It looks that way doesn't it!
You've probably driven around the circuit as I have, and when I drove around I couldn't believe how tight & narrow some parts of the track, dipper etc, were,...and these guys are going through these places at mega speed 2-3 abreast, so IMHO it's no wonder there's a bit of drama!
Pickles.
Wifey drives an Audi RS3 & Audi had a very attractive corporate package to view the race,...which is the only way I'd go there, but ya can't do everything!

[rick130]

that last prang at Sulman Park was sickening....

That last hit was totally avoidable, he hadn't buttoned off with the yellows....

[CraigE]

Something serious occuring. Police involved. Maybe a spectator injured???[bigsad]

[pop058]

that last prang at Sulman Park was sickening....

That last hit was totally avoidable, he hadn't buttoned off with the yellows....

My thoughts as well. There was heaps of time for the yellows to come out but did they ?? The overall marshaling seemed to be a bit off tune. The firey at the Morris fire was well behind the 8 ball in reacting.

[rick130]

My thoughts as well. There was heaps of time for the yellows to come out but did they ?? The overall marshaling seemed to be a bit off tune. The firey at the Morris fire was well behind the 8 ball in reacting.

I watched the replay of that, she couldn't get the pin out of the extinguisher.
It did seem to take an eternity.

You don't always see the flags when focusing on the track and it's been twenty years since i've been there, I can't recall where the flag points are prior to that section of track.

[ramblingboy42]

I watched the replay of that, she couldn't get the pin out of the extinguisher.
It did seem to take an eternity.

You don't always see the flags when focusing on the track and it's been twenty years since i've been there, I can't recall where the flag points are prior to that section of track.

I have observed that people squeeze the handle while trying to remove the pin thus holding it tight.....it appeared that is what she was doing.

I wonder how much fire training these marshalls actually get?

[rick130]

I have observed that people squeeze the handle while trying to remove the pin thus holding it tight.....it appeared that is what she was doing.

I wonder how much fire training these marshalls actually get?

Yep, you're probably right.
I'd have to think now, it's been nearly three years since I last used an extinguisher.

It used to be good training although I've never been a flaggy except for the mandatory two you had to do I think it was when you got your race license, but that was twenty five years ago.

[CraigE]

I have observed that people squeeze the handle while trying to remove the pin thus holding it tight.....it appeared that is what she was doing.

I wonder how much fire training these marshalls actually get?

This obviously comes from those of you that have had bugger all to do with motorsport and fire response.
I have been in the profession now for 14 odd years and a Cams Fire Marshall for over 3, controlling events such as Supercars etc and have also been acting Chief.
You cannot enter the track under any situation until Race Control authorizes you to do so, end of story. If you do you will lose your cams accreditation and never officiate again. Yes there are different levels of skill due to it mainly being volunteer ranging from novice to professional. None of us get paid for doing it.
It can be torturous waiting for permission to enter the track, I know first hand having to wait and not putting my crew on the track when cars are still coming even under yellow. Just such an occurence with the GT cars at Barbagallos last yeae, Double yellows and cars still doing over 200kmph, so no member of my crew was entering the track until they slowed one minor miss and a crew member is dead, so maybe think about that before you comment.
The only way you will see full timers like us take it over is if driver costs and admission costs skyrocket.

[V8Ian]

I have observed that people squeeze the handle while trying to remove the pin thus holding it tight.....it appeared that is what she was doing.

I wonder how much fire training these marshalls actually get?


This obviously comes from those of you that have had bugger all to do with motorsport and fire response.
I have been in the profession now for 14 odd years and a Cams Fire Marshall for over 3, controlling events such as Supercars etc and have also been acting Chief.
You cannot enter the track under any situation until Race Control authorizes you to do so, end of story. If you do you will lose your cams accreditation and never officiate again. Yes there are different levels of skill due to it mainly being volunteer ranging from novice to professional. None of us get paid for doing it.
It can be torturous waiting for permission to enter the track, I know first hand having to wait and not putting my crew on the track when cars are still coming even under yellow. Just such an occurence with the GT cars at Barbagallos last yeae, Double yellows and cars still doing over 200kmph, so no member of my crew was entering the track until they slowed one minor miss and a crew member is dead, so maybe think about that before you comment.
The only way you will see full timers like us take it over is if driver costs and admission costs skyrocket.

Fireys and flaggies are two different entities, albeit with overlapping roles.
As you state Craig, nobody can enter the track (including fireys, medics, ambos or any course car) until authorised by race control.
Each flag point is equipped with fire extinguishers, but the primary role of the flag point is communication. When a burning car pulls up at a flag point, knowing it is equipped with extinguishers, it is not unreasonable to expect an expedient and effective response, rather than fumbling bewilderment.
I have fulfilled various roles in motor-sport, including volunteer flag and fire marshalling and in my opinion, the flag marshalling at this event was definitely below par.
I would like to add the rider that flagging is not as simple as it appears. The marshal has to have situational awareness and make split second decisions in an instantaneously changing environment.

[rick130]

This obviously comes from those of you that have had bugger all to do with motorsport and fire response.
I have been in the profession now for 14 odd years and a Cams Fire Marshall for over 3, controlling events such as Supercars etc and have also been acting Chief.
You cannot enter the track under any situation until Race Control authorizes you to do so, end of story. If you do you will lose your cams accreditation and never officiate again. Yes there are different levels of skill due to it mainly being volunteer ranging from novice to professional. None of us get paid for doing it.
It can be torturous waiting for permission to enter the track, I know first hand having to wait and not putting my crew on the track when cars are still coming even under yellow. Just such an occurence with the GT cars at Barbagallos last yeae, Double yellows and cars still doing over 200kmph, so no member of my crew was entering the track until they slowed one minor miss and a crew member is dead, so maybe think about that before you comment.
The only way you will see full timers like us take it over is if driver costs and admission costs skyrocket.Craig, did you see the situation we're talking about?
It did appear the firey was struggling to pull the pin on the extinguisher.

[CraigE]

Fireys and flaggies are two different entities, albeit with overlapping roles.
As you state Craig, nobody can enter the track (including fireys, medics, ambos or any course car) until authorised by race control.
Each flag point is equipped with fire extinguishers, but the primary role of the flag point is communication. When a burning car pulls up at a flag point, knowing it is equipped with extinguishers, it is not unreasonable to expect an expedient and effective response, rather than fumbling bewilderment.
I have fulfilled various roles in motor-sport, including volunteer flag and fire marshalling and in my opinion, the flag marshalling at this event was definitely below par.
I would like to add the rider that flagging is not as simple as it appears. The marshal has to have situational awareness and make split second decisions in an instantaneously changing environment.

Generally now a flag marshall is told not to leave their post to attend a fire as they are not in PPE, they can however hand an extinguisher to a driver out of the car or to one of us if we need another. The flag marshal cannot jump the fence with an extinguisher either until authorised by race control and most should not anyway.
I have not been able to view the exact footage you are talking about, but generally most flaggies are not trained to use extinguishers. Should they be? Yes. Also like us ever tried pulling a pin with level 2 or 3 gloves on?
The primary thing is in these cars they all have on board systems that the driver can activate. Often they dont as it is a reasonable expense for them. We had exactly the scenario when I was in charge of both pit lanes with one of the Audi GT cars last year. Cars still doing 200kmph plus under double yellows (supposed to be 60kmph) so there is no way we are putting people on foot onto the track, driver had a whinge and when we investigated found he had not activated his own fire suppression so told him where to get off.
It is painfull having to wait to enter the track when a car is on fire or a driver hurt.
In an ideal world we would have everyone experienced and trained but it all comes at a cost that would likely spell the extinction of motorsport, Some of us do give back and try to educate new members and other officials but only so much we can do. My son for example is relatively new only in year 3, but one of the more experienced now. These events cant happen without the volunteers. A good example of this was while training my son, only on his L's we were the only 2 to turn up at an event. Without my son would not have been run. I had to give him a really rapid course on driving fire 1 and I had to drive Fire 2. It was one hell of a day and I was backwards and forwards in and out of both vehicles. And you know what we get for the day? A sausage in a roll and 2 drinks.

[CraigE]

Craig, did you see the situation we're talking about?
It did appear the firey was struggling to pull the pin on the extinguisher.
A lot of these extinguisher now as well as the pin have a tamper tag so can be difficult to pull especially with level 2 or 3 gloves on. Not defending it, but it is not a flaggies jobe to attend a fire, full stop if this was the case.

[V8Ian]

And you know what we get for the day? A sausage in a roll and 2 drinks.
Over-paid :tease:, we used to get a small, warm, stale salad roll and bottle of warm water. [bigsad]

[Bigbjorn]

They still have flaggies? how quaint and old-fashioned. Qld. tracks insist on gadgets they call "communicators" and if you don't own an approved model have to hire one from the organisers at absolute rip-off prices. No flaggies.

Edit:- I stand corrected. They still have flaggies but for how much longer is a moot point. Communicators are required under standing regs at Qld. Raceway and Lakesdie.

[CraigE]

They still have flaggies? how quaint and old-fashioned. Qld. tracks insist on gadgets they call "communicators" and if you don't own an approved model have to hire one from the organisers at absolute rip-off prices. No flaggies.

Edit:- I stand corrected. They still have flaggies but for how much longer is a moot point. Communicators are required under standing regs at Qld. Raceway and Lakesdie.

Sorry? What do you mean by communicators? The only thing I know of they use is Dorian Timers. They dont tell the drivers anything while driving, just record and transmit times. Some crews have radio comms some dont, some divisions you are not allowed radio comms. Flaggies even with lighting systems will be around for some time yet. Flaggies are more than just flag wavers and often call in incidents race control cannot see, damage to cars, incidents etc as we also do, no matter how many cameras you have there are always blind spots.
Even in the divisions where they have clear radio comms, we still get drivers not slow under double yellows with flags and lights flashing plus comms from the pits. Comms are only useful if the incident is communicated and often it is not by team radio.

[CraigE]

Over-paid :tease:, we used to get a small, warm, stale salad roll and bottle of warm water. [bigsad]

I actually just got to see the incident. Yes she was a flaggie and obviously not trained or not conversant with a fire ext. Hey at least she had a go. Not a lot more she could have done. Just unlucky she was caught on tv. Ideally hand it to the driver who is in a fire retardent suit until the crew gets there. Doe's not look like Paul activated the on board fire suppression that these cars do have. Can be activated from inside the car and outside at the rear of the bonnet. But most drivers dont like activating them and rely on our fire suppression. Have been down this path a few times and with the GT cars.

[101RRS]

The underbonnet system was not activated when the car was stopped - a little while after the driver got out he went back into the passenger side and activated it.

Before that the marshall hit the front of the car with a fire extinguisher - she did not seem to have any troubles using it but because she did not jump down and poke it through an opening it had no impact. I was wondering why she did not jumo down as she was ineffectual where she was but the discussion about not going onto the circuit cleared that up - but it did make her actions (lack of action) understandable.

She then could be seen to be "fumbling" with another extinguisher (but she obviously new how to use it) but gave it to the driver who went around to the drivers side and squirted it under the front wheel arch - still not much use. Maybe the marshall was talking with the driver about the approach so maybe this is why she seemed to be fumbling.

Then the fire unit arrived.

For me the marshall not jumping down to give the car a squirt was the main issue but has now been explained - on one hand I can understand the rule but marshalls should also be given a bit of leaway - the driver was allowed on the circuit so if the marshall (remember they need to be fully trained) was happy then maybe OK.

In the circumstances I think that Marshall did exactly what she should have done and performed well.

I was disappointed that the crash message either by radio or the marshall system did not reach the Merc drive in the last crash as the Merc did arrive on the scene sometime later and possibly should have been aware of the incident ahead if the system had worked as it should.

I dont have a better solution but I think the safety car is killing car racing in Australia but I certainly dont have a better answer.

[CraigE]

The underbonnet system was not activated when the car was stopped - a little while after the driver got out he went back into the passenger side and activated it.

Before that the marshall hit the front of the car with a fire extinguisher - she did not seem to have any troubles using it but because she did not jump down and poke it through an opening it had no impact. I was wondering why she did not jumo down as she was ineffectual where she was but the discussion about not going onto the circuit cleared that up - but it did make her actions (lack of action) understandable.

She then could be seen to be "fumbling" with another extinguisher (but she obviously new how to use it) but gave it to the driver who went around to the drivers side and squirted it under the front wheel arch - still not much use. Maybe the marshall was talking with the driver about the approach so maybe this is why she seemed to be fumbling.

Then the fire unit arrived.

For me the marshall not jumping down to give the car a squirt was the main issue but has now been explained - on one hand I can understand the rule but marshalls should also be given a bit of leaway - the driver was allowed on the circuit so if the marshall (remember they need to be fully trained) was happy then maybe OK.

In the circumstances I think that Marshall did exactly what she should have done and performed well.

I was disappointed that the crash message either by radio or the marshall system did not reach the Merc drive in the last crash as the Merc did arrive on the scene sometime later and possibly should have been aware of the incident ahead if the system had worked as it should.

I dont have a better solution but I think the safety car is killing car racing in Australia but I certainly dont have a better answer.

Gary,
The driver is also not supposed to stay on the track but get up on the wall immediately. I do hope Paul actually gets fined for this, but likely wont. The amount of time we have had to get drivers off the track is unbelievable and slows us up as well.With the other incident near the end of the race, something similar could have been catastrophic in this case. The flag marshall did exactly what she was supposed to, but even with that is not supposed to activate an extinguisher unless threat to life.
No one can enter the circuit until it is either under the control of the safety car and under double yellows or under red.
As you have said there is no easy solution. We cannot call red flag only race control can, gets very frustrating when an open wheeler is upside down on someones head. But the rules are there to protect us as well. As I have said in previous posts often the drivers are not aware, have not seen the double yellows or just dont care and can continue at speed, Look at the GT cars at Barbagallos last year pit exit / turn 1, car on fire. We got a bit of stick by the media for not being quicker, but the cars were still doing in excess of 200kmph in this area for 2 laps until the safety car got them under control. No way I was putting anyone on the track until they slowed and actually had to chastise one that did creep around the wall. Televised events are quite different and we have to be quick as possible due to air time commitments etc and makes people very reluctant to red flag an event. In normal events they do get red flagged a lot quicker as the implications are not as bad. Well the season is about to start again for us with the first event this Saturday (private event though not WASCC).
There are no easy solutions, but we cannot put people at risk. The drivers need to be more proactive in using their on board fire suppression.
On another note our crews try to use foam if available rather than DCP as the DCP is more corrosive and a lot harder to clean, especially on engine intakes.

[CraigE]

Interesting just watched a replay of the Bathurst 6 hr and Craig Bairds car fire.
Shows the commentary team have no idea as commented on how fast the flag marshall and fire crew got the fire out.
The car pulled up near a marshall point, flag marshall on track edge at car before track under control, right in the door with a fire extinguisher but no PPE on at all. He did a great job at knocking it down before fire crew arrived, but and its a huge but no PPE on at all, if this fire had flashed back he would have been in a huge world of trouble. At best he should have stood back at least 3 metres (considered a safe distance if anything goes wrong).
It is going to take a serious injury before this is addressed.