Puma 2.2 burning oil!

[seedy deals]

Howdy all, Long time landy owner, new to aulro. Defenders are my vehicle of choice, 1993 110, 1998 130, 2011 130 and a 2016 130.
Got a tricky problem with my 2016 defender that i thought collective wisdom may be able to assist.
Cars done 111,000 and it's started burning heaps of oil over the last 5000kms. I'm talking more than a litre every 1000km. No loss of power, no obvious smoke on start up or high revs, no starting issues, no overrunning on shutdow, no oil leaks. Oil pressure checked and all good. Rocker cover and sump off and nothing obviously out of place.
Heaps of oil through the air intake and turbo/intercooler. Appears to be coming in from the hose that runs from the rocker cover to the air intake just before the turbo. I'm thinking its pumping too much oil up to the top of the motor, and essentially overflowing but seems strange. Maybe the oil pressure relief valve in the oil pump?
If anyones got any ideas would be much appreciated.
Cheers
Sam

[justinc]

Dusted? 😣😣😣

[Tombie]

Dusted? [emoji21][emoji21][emoji21]

That’s what I immediately thought 🤨

[DiscoMick]

I assume the right oil was used at the last oil change?

[bemm52]

Dusted? 😣😣😣

.....????

Cheers Paul

[Tombie]

I assume the right oil was used at the last oil change?

Also worth checking.

I’ve seen engines that just didn’t like a particular oil and would burn it... change back to the original and all good again.

[seedy deals]

Oil n changes good, same with air n fuel filters, runs hard in tough environment but hard to imagine dusted! Symptoms do sort of fit but how would you explain sweet starting, running and full power?

[Tins]

Oil n changes good, same with air n fuel filters, runs hard in tough environment but hard to imagine dusted! Symptoms do sort of fit but how would you explain sweet starting, running and full power?

Well, a broken oil ring could do it. So, barely, could a broken valve guide ( but that would likely have a noise ). Not saying that's what's wrong, merely answering the hypothetical.

What sort of crankcase ventilation do those engines run? Fairly common cause of oil consumption on some engines, but I know nothing at all about the Pumas.

[manic]

Oil n changes good, same with air n fuel filters, runs hard in tough environment but hard to imagine dusted! Symptoms do sort of fit but how would you explain sweet starting, running and full power?Is it possible you are loosing some oil past the turbo oil seal?

Seeing as its running well I'd be tempted to clean out the intake pipes plus IC, and redirect the crankcase vent to a catch can. Give it some more kms and then see how much oil lost vs collected and if theres any oil to be found in the pipes post turbo.

[seedy deals]

Is it possible you are loosing some oil past the turbo oil seal?

Seeing as its running well I'd be tempted to clean out the intake pipes plus IC, and redirect the crankcase vent to a catch can. Give it some more kms and then see how much oil lost vs collected and if theres any oil to be found in the pipes post turbo.

Good idea. Will certainly help to pin it down.
Suspected turbo at first, but there was so much oil in the intake directly upstream from (and downstream from crankcase breather hose) that i decided it couldn't be coming from there.
Thanks
Sam

[Marty90]

Apparently the rocker cover on the puma works like a catch can. I know you've had the rocker cover off,but I wonder if there might be an obstruction forcing the waste back through the inlet?

[DiscoMick]

Also worth checking.

I’ve seen engines that just didn’t like a particular oil and would burn it... change back to the original and all good again.
I mentioned oil because I read Toyota had to change the recommendation on their TDV8 because they were burning oil. But, if the right oil was used in this case, then it's not that.

[Toxic_Avenger]

Sounds like excessive blow-by. Whack a catch can on it, and monitor.

[martnH]

Idel the engine and open the engine oil cap....Video it and post it here Please

I am curious and would like to compare yours to mine....

[grinna1965]

Howdy all, Long time landy owner, new to aulro. Defenders are my vehicle of choice, 1993 110, 1998 130, 2011 130 and a 2016 130.
Got a tricky problem with my 2016 defender that i thought collective wisdom may be able to assist.
Cars done 111,000 and it's started burning heaps of oil over the last 5000kms. I'm talking more than a litre every 1000km. No loss of power, no obvious smoke on start up or high revs, no starting issues, no overrunning on shutdow, no oil leaks. Oil pressure checked and all good. Rocker cover and sump off and nothing obviously out of place.
Heaps of oil through the air intake and turbo/intercooler. Appears to be coming in from the hose that runs from the rocker cover to the air intake just before the turbo. I'm thinking its pumping too much oil up to the top of the motor, and essentially overflowing but seems strange. Maybe the oil pressure relief valve in the oil pump?
If anyones got any ideas would be much appreciated.
Cheers
Sam
More than likely leaking injector washers which puts compression into the engine causing crank case pressure which fills intake with oil pretty common with a lot of late model diesels because the injector is sealed internally in the engine so any compression past the sealing washer creates crank case pressure.seen engines rebuilt for this problem from people not nowing
hope this helps

[Toxic_Avenger]

Either I'm daft and in need of education, or something does not seem right. How does leaky injector seal cause excessive oil usage?

In the 2.2, the injectors have a copper seal at the tip of the injector. If this fails, then cylinder pressure on the compression stroke would leak past, and to atmosphere. As far as I can tell, the 2.2 injectors are sealed only at this point. If they did leak into the head itself, then even going as far as into the intake air galleries (unlikely as far as I can tell from the service manual), then they'd still be fighting boost pressure, and still only be dumping fuel and air...
If the injector is leaking, then yeah, surely there'd be symptoms of difficult to start or excessive fuel usage.

IMO, if there is oil usage, and present at the PCV hose, then it's coming from the crank case. And this happens from blow by. I can't understand the mechanics of what you've suggested, but I'm keen to know more.

[Tombie]

Idel the engine and open the engine oil cap....Video it and post it here Please

I am curious and would like to compare yours to mine....

You need to be more specific [emoji6]

[martnH]

You need to be more specific [emoji6]Run the engine up the temperature,

Open the oil filling cap
And pinch the Pvc hose. That the one OP was talking from engine catch can to right before air Box. So that all blow by is coming from the cap

Smell it

Mine smells pretty carcinogenic. Had I Decat my car, it would have smell like that all day every day (sorry can't resist haha)


One thing I can contribute is that I installed a catch can so I can measure blow by. When dealer serviced my car, they used some Castro a2 (I think) and that oil is not for a truck equipped with DPF.
When I did the service, I use Castro OE-X that is the engine oil for diesel truck with DPF. I know the 2.2 didn't have DPF But for whatever reason Castro inform me I need OE-X)

And I discovered using the engine oil desgined for truck with DPF in my case will lead to more blowby. But not anywhere near what OP described as burning close to 1 Lt of oil per 100 kms....thats some expensice oil consumption...

[martnH]

Castrol....

[Tombie]

Smells carcinogenic [emoji48]

[manic]

But not anywhere near what OP described as burning close to 1 Lt of oil per 100 kms....thats some expensice oil consumption...

1 lt per 1000km!

[martnH]

Smells carcinogenic [emoji48]The smell kinda reminds me of burned bacon....It's quite a unique sweet euphoric odor

Hmnnnnnn talking about this makes me wanna huff some of that delicious blowby!

[karlz]

...
Mine smells pretty carcinogenic. Had I Decat my car, it would have smell like that all day every day (sorry can't resist haha)
...

[bigsmile][bigsmile1][bigsmile1][bigrolf][bigrolf][biggrin][smilebigeye][bigsmile]

[grinna1965]

Either I'm daft and in need of education, or something does not seem right. How does leaky injector seal cause excessive oil usage?

In the 2.2, the injectors have a copper seal at the tip of the injector. If this fails, then cylinder pressure on the compression stroke would leak past, and to atmosphere. As far as I can tell, the 2.2 injectors are sealed only at this point. If they did leak into the head itself, then even going as far as into the intake air galleries (unlikely as far as I can tell from the service manual), then they'd still be fighting boost pressure, and still only be dumping fuel and air...
If the injector is leaking, then yeah, surely there'd be symptoms of difficult to start or excessive fuel usage.

IMO, if there is oil usage, and present at the PCV hose, then it's coming from the crank case. And this happens from blow by. I can't understand the mechanics of what you've suggested, but I'm keen to know more.
Your probably just in need of educating,the injector body is sealed at the top by the rocker cover,so if compression is passing the injector sealing ring ever so slightly,what happens is compression entering rocker cover and bingo pressure same as blow by so pushes a lot more oil and fumes through the breather system and into the turbo which contributes to oil usage.have done 2x 2.4,1x2.2 and numerous other brand vehicles,it doesn’t make it hard to start or down on power just uses oil,oils up intake system and if you remove the oil cap you would swear it had excessive blow by

[Toxic_Avenger]

That makes sense for the TD5 where the injector is within the rocker cover, but TDCi is external to this compartment. But thanks for the explanation, I'd not even thought of that as a possible cause.

[grinna1965]

That makes sense for the TD5 where the injector is within the rocker cover, but TDCi is external to this compartment. But thanks for the explanation, I'd not even thought of that as a possible cause.
here are the photos so you can see the injector body is sealed into the rocker cover,only the top of the injector is out
136103136104136105

[DiscoMick]

Run the engine up the temperature,

Open the oil filling cap
And pinch the Pvc hose. That the one OP was talking from engine catch can to right before air Box. So that all blow by is coming from the cap

Smell it

Mine smells pretty carcinogenic. Had I Decat my car, it would have smell like that all day every day (sorry can't resist haha)


One thing I can contribute is that I installed a catch can so I can measure blow by. When dealer serviced my car, they used some Castro a2 (I think) and that oil is not for a truck equipped with DPF.
When I did the service, I use Castro OE-X that is the engine oil for diesel truck with DPF. I know the 2.2 didn't have DPF But for whatever reason Castro inform me I need OE-X)

And I discovered using the engine oil desgined for truck with DPF in my case will lead to more blowby. But not anywhere near what OP described as burning close to 1 Lt of oil per 100 kms....thats some expensice oil consumption...So maybe this is wrong, but can I again ask if you are absolutely sure the right oil (non DPF) was used at the last service? Be good to absolutely rule that out.

[martnH]

So maybe this is wrong, but can I again ask if you are absolutely sure the right oil (non DPF) was used at the last service? Be good to absolutely rule that out. oil I used meet the requirement (the Ford requirement stamped on the 20 Lt drum). I am 100% sure about that.

If the dealer used the oil as stated on the invoice, then it also meet the requirements...

It's just the engine oil I used is of higher requirement. However it contributes to more blow by...

[rick130]

Valve stem seals floating?

Had this happen on a Tdi, three were floating with the stem, they had popped off the guides.

Replaced the stem seals and the consumption went from 5-600ml/5,000km to pretty near unnoticeable over 10,000km.

Also Tombies suggestion, have seen this before too.
Some oils of the same viscosity and specs just don't seem compatible with certain bore finishes/ring designs.
I'm still not sure why, but suspect that if we knew what their NOACK numbers were (measurement of volatility) it may tell a story.

[justinc]

Rick i have been almost exclusively using HPR Penrite oils in these pumas and none have any oil use issues reported. I would a lso possibly suspect an injector sealing leak if the pressure seems excessive however they WILL start to weep out of front and rear seals if that is the case. Also wetness around the rocker cover injector body seals i wouldve thought...

Jc

[rick130]

Justin, do you service any TDV8 'Cruisers at all?

[PAT303]

Rick i have been almost exclusively using HPR Penrite oils in these pumas and none have any oil use issues reported. I would a lso possibly suspect an injector sealing leak if the pressure seems excessive however they WILL start to weep out of front and rear seals if that is the case. Also wetness around the rocker cover injector body seals i wouldve thought...

Jc

Same here,we have three turbo diesel vehicles and I use Penrite HPR in all of them,it's bloody good oil. Pat

[rick130]

Same here,we have three turbo diesel vehicles and I use Penrite HPR in all of them,it's bloody good oil. PatI haven't done any testing for years Pat, but am going to do some with the Disco so it'll be interesting to see how things look seeing as all compartments are from the same blender. [emoji6]
Very happy with the way the 4HP22 is shifting, especially as the Multi-Vehicle FS isn't on the ZF approval list.

[ozrob]

After reading four pages of the reasons why the engine is using oil.....no one has suggested going back to basics...a compression test, as you may have a broken ring, is the crank case being pressurized?
I do like the suggestions of trying a different type of engine oil like the HPR diesel, as that is what i use and my 2.2 does not use any oil.

[justinc]

There has been several comments about crankcase pressure, and a broken compression ring in any diesel will cause huge running issues and visible smoking from unburnt fuel. OP has stated he has no power loss and smooth running. It is a strange issue yes.

Jc

[PAT303]

I haven't done any testing for years Pat, but am going to do some with the Disco so it'll be interesting to see how things look seeing as all compartments are from the same blender. [emoji6]
Very happy with the way the 4HP22 is shifting, especially as the Multi-Vehicle FS isn't on the ZF approval list.

Rick,I've changed the DSG fluid in our Golf run a bout to Penrite's DSG specific fluid,it's not on VW's oil list either but the stuff works.

[filcar]

Howdy all, Long time landy owner, new to aulro. Defenders are my vehicle of choice, 1993 110, 1998 130, 2011 130 and a 2016 130.
Got a tricky problem with my 2016 defender that i thought collective wisdom may be able to assist.
Cars done 111,000 and it's started burning heaps of oil over the last 5000kms. I'm talking more than a litre every 1000km. No loss of power, no obvious smoke on start up or high revs, no starting issues, no overrunning on shutdow, no oil leaks. Oil pressure checked and all good. Rocker cover and sump off and nothing obviously out of place.
Heaps of oil through the air intake and turbo/intercooler. Appears to be coming in from the hose that runs from the rocker cover to the air intake just before the turbo. I'm thinking its pumping too much oil up to the top of the motor, and essentially overflowing but seems strange. Maybe the oil pressure relief valve in the oil pump?
If anyones got any ideas would be much appreciated.
Cheers
Sam

Any resolution?

[Oldfart]

I have the same problem with a 2010 2.4. It has been burning about 1 litre per 5000 km for some time. No loss of power, no heating or other outward signs and seems to be running well. Our mechanic Ben (good guy) suspects blow by from ring wear. Vehicle has done 190000km. This is my third 110 with no problems previously. Always serviced oil changes at 10,000km.

Still to get to the bottom of this?

[DiscoMick]

Be interested to hear what is found. Have you tried a different grade of oil?
Mine uses nil oil between changes.