Space X Falcon Heavy Launch soon!!

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Falcon Heavy Test Flight | SpaceX (http://www.spacex.com/webcast)

[Pedro_The_Swift]

That was AMAZING!!!!
:banana::banana::banana::banana::banana::banana::b anana::banana::banana::banana::banana::banana::ban ana:

[Mick_Marsh]

Still not as big as a Saturn V.
Still not as impressive as a Saturn V.

Apollo 11 - Saturn V Launch - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvWHnK2FiCk)

[Pedro_The_Swift]

maybe,,
but you are comparing a block splitter to a scalpel.

[Mick_Marsh]

maybe,,
but you are comparing a block splitter to a scalpel.
Camping with you must be an interesting experience. "Throw another wood shaving on the fire."

If we want to go to Mars, we need to think big. There is lots of equipment that will need to go there.
Habitats, transport, power plants, oxygen plants, water plants, food production equipment, ............

Oh, and a CRB road crew to build the roads so we can drive Elon,'s car. It's a roadster, not a SUV.

[Tins]

Oh, and a CRB road crew to build the roads so we cam drive Elon,'s car. It's a roadster, not a SUV.

CRB road crew? Now you're showing your age. Besides, it'd take more than three blokes with long handled shovels and a smoko hut to prepare a road for a Tesla.

[Ferret]

Watch it. Real action starts about 8:30.

Falcon Heavy Test Flight - YouTube

(https://www.youtube.com/watch'time_continue=2&v=wbSwFU6tY1c)

[101RRS]

Watch it. Real action starts about 8:30.

(https://www.youtube.com/watch'time_continue=2&v=wbSwFU6tY1c)

Its already happened - been on the news all morning - great marketing aspect for Tesla - landing the booster rockets back on bodies is a bit of the waste where there is an atmosphere like earth and mars (parachutes as more economical) as all that extra fuel has to be carried to land back (reducing payload) but is proving the concept for landings on bodies such as the moon where there is no atmosphere.

Unfortunately the main body malfunctioned when trying to land on the barge at sea and crashed 100m from the barge - I am sure a major learning experience for next time.

Garry

[Ferret]

Its already happened...

Of course it has, that's why it's available to watch on Utube now.

[101RRS]

Yes but you said it starts at 8.30 but you posted at 12.58 (nearly 4 1/2 hours later) - so it had already happened when you posted.

[cripesamighty]

One of the biggest problems in actually trying to land a crewed vehicle on Mars is the lack of atmosphere and its associated lack of friction of the descending body. Trying to slow anything down bigger than a Mars Rover is almost impossible with todays technology, even with retro-rockets. Anything bigger than 1 ton means too much fuel is needed to arrest the descent, which means more weight, which needs more fuel to slow it down, which means more weight, ad nauseum. They need a complete re-think in how they are going to do it.

[Mick_Marsh]

One of the biggest problems in actually trying to land a crewed vehicle on Mars is the lack of atmosphere and its associated lack of friction of the descending body. Trying to slow anything down bigger than a Mars Rover is almost impossible with todays technology, even with retro-rockets. Anything bigger than 1 ton means too much fuel is needed to arrest the descent, which means more weight, which needs more fuel to slow it down, which means more weight, ad nauseum. They need a complete re-think in how they are going to do it.
Build a geosynchronous docking station in orbit and then build a goods elevator to the surface of Mars.

[cripesamighty]

I saw an idea for a space elevator a while ago using a cable made from carbon nanothread. Would love to see that in action!

[Ferret]

Yes but you said it starts at 8.30 but you posted at 12.58 (nearly 4 1/2 hours later) - so it had already happened when you posted.

If you had wanted to watch it (or even bothered to watch it) you would see there is nothing but music in the video clip until the 8:30 (minute) mark. Why? I have no idea, that's just the way it is.

[Eevo]

finally! we have flying cars lol

[BMKal]

So ............ in this day and age when we're all supposed to be doing our bit towards reducing pollution, and when we quite regularly see articles about the amount of "space junk" out there .......... when some egotistical ****** with a lot of money launches a car into orbit for no other purpose than to leave a monument to himself, we are supposed to be impressed ???? :Thump:

I'm afraid it takes a bit more than that to impress me. :wacko:

[Mick_Marsh]

So ............ in this day and age when we're all supposed to be doing our bit towards reducing pollution, and when we quite regularly see articles about the amount of "space junk" out there .......... when some egotistical ****** with a lot of money launches a car into orbit for no other purpose than to leave a monument to himself, we are supposed to be impressed ???? :Thump:

I'm afraid it takes a bit more than that to impress me. :wacko:
Truth is, it was a test launching.
With a test launching, they need some weight to simulate cargo. Usually they use old blocks of concrete. As there is no market for second hand electric vehicles and their resale price is way less than that of waste concrete, it was cheaper for Elon to use his old car as ballast.

[BMKal]

But I thought that these electric cars were the way of the future, and that there would be a huge market for second hand examples when they came available. Could it be that we are just being conned again ????

If they really wanted something with "zero re-sale value" to send up as ballast, I'm sure that we could have rounded up a few politicians (I won't nominate which ones, 'cause that could be interpreted as a political statement [biggrin] ) and sent them into orbit. Could you just imagine if those other "little green men" came across out political rejects in their travels. Would definitely put them off any plans they might have had to visit this place. :Rolling::Rolling::Rolling:

[Toxic_Avenger]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2018/02/248.jpg
...I'll show myself out.

[DiscoMick]

It was a test launch during preparations to send missions to the Moon and Mars. He owns the company, so why not promote it's products by sending up one of its cars as cargo? We're talking about SpaceX, so the promotion worked. Mission accomplished.

[DiscoMick]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2018/02/248.jpg
...I'll show myself out.Does Alaska have a car in space? I didn't know that.

[101RRS]

Does Alaska have a car in space? I didn't know that.

Hmmm you might want to rethink that statement [bigsmile]

[Pedro_The_Swift]

watching those two boosters land together was the best TV since 1969.... :ohyes:

[Toxic_Avenger]

Hook, Line and sinker [bigwhistle]

[martnH]

That was incredible

One of my friends works at space X. Workers there are young intelligent and passionat. I just wish there are more companies like this on our planet.

An I wish Australia has a company like space X.but I don't think it's possible

[loanrangie]

watching those two boosters land together was the best TV since 1969.... :ohyes:

If nothing else that alone is an amazing achievement, not sure what NASA used to do with the old boosters but after a dip in the ocean i guess they were only good as museum pieces.

[Mick_Marsh]

If nothing else that alone is an amazing achievement, not sure what NASA used to do with the old boosters but after a dip in the ocean i guess they were only good as museum pieces.
On the space shuttle, they would recover, refurbish and reuse them.
The Orbiter would also be refurbished and reused.

[Classic88]

So ............ in this day and age when we're all supposed to be doing our bit towards reducing pollution, and when we quite regularly see articles about the amount of "space junk" out there .......... when some egotistical ****** with a lot of money launches a car into orbit for no other purpose than to leave a monument to himself, we are supposed to be impressed ???? :Thump:

I'm afraid it takes a bit more than that to impress me. :wacko:

It's in a solar, rather than earth orbit, so it won't add to the space junk around earth.

Although I do think it should have been a Ford Prefect with a '42' licence plate [bigrolf]

[DiscoMick]

Isn't it heading for deep space?

[trog]

It's in a solar, rather than earth orbit, so it won't add to the space junk around earth.

Although I do think it should have been a Ford Prefect with a '42' licence plate [bigrolf]

And Marvin as the auto pilot

[bee utey]

Isn't it heading for deep space?

Depends on how deep your inner space is. Currently its orbit is an elliptical one going past the orbit of Mars into the asteroid belt and back towards the Earth's orbit.

[Homestar]

watching those two boosters land together was the best TV since 1969.... :ohyes:

And the third one.... Video feed was convienently cut as it crashed out of control... 😉

[Ferret]

And the third one.... Video feed was convienently cut as it crashed out of control... 😉

2 out of 3 ain't bad. [bigwhistle]

[Homestar]

Yeah, still mightily impressive I've got to say. Not sure which bit it was but on a show on the ABC a science reported mentioned one bit didn't make it and that Tesla cut the video feed as soon as they realised it was in trouble.

[Ferret]

Read somewhere landing the core booster was thought of to be a long shot right from the start. Something about they had never manoeuvred back a descending stage as far as needed when it was so far from it's designated landing point before.

[kowari]

Fiddling while Rome burns, it seems to me. Perhaps he could spend his millions on something that extracts plastic from seawater, or reduces global warming, or, or, nah, no
glory in that. Lets just chase pipedreams, after all, it always works in the movies.

[ramblingboy42]

his money , his choice how he spends it.

[JDNSW]

Interesting snippet I read today - SpaceX does not use special (very expensive) radiation hardened chips in their computer control systems like NASA does. Instead they use off the shelf components, running in a triplicated system that is itself triplicated; which is about 1% of the cost, and probably more importantly, means they can use much more up to date hardware. Radiation hardened chips take around ten years to develop and test, and a lot happens in ten years of computer development.

[Homestar]

his money ,

That’s up for debate depending on who you believe...

[kowari]

his money , his choice how he spends it.


His money, but not his resources.

Your suggesting that wealthy people should have free reign over how they use our resources. So the Wealthy can use all the water they want in a drought, no need to recycle for them eh. Interesting view.

Of course he can waste his money how he wishes, but not if wastes diminishing resources on a grand scale for no advantage to failing planet. The tipping point for us was 2014, perhapse his butler didnt inform him.

[Mick_Marsh]

That’s up for debate depending on who you believe...
End of the Dream? Elon Musk’s Financial Woes Begin to Mount - Sputnik International (https://sputniknews.com/world/201711051058839626-elon-musk-ventures-problems/)

It would be sad to see his ventures go belly up.

[Toxic_Avenger]

I wouldn't be surprised if he goes bankrupt.
His comprehensive insurtance premiums must be astronomical.

[martnH]

Fortune favours the bold

Let the Americans and Chinese chase the dreams (aka not fliping properties, picking up garbages and having better welfare centerlink pension etc....)

Let us just watch with popcorn

honestly I am extremely jealous of those who works for projects like this. Projects like this is exciting not dig some stuffs from the ground and sell them....

[martnH]

It's like the American healthcare.
the healthcare cost the US of A 17% of GDP and that is huge stupid amount of money.

Many people laugh at it but they simply forget that they are in most cases the free riders, benefiting from this huge spending frenzy on healthcare, particularly pharmaceutical sector. Had America not spent 20%gdp into healthcare, there simply will not be so many clinical research and this many breakthrough cancer drugs..

So trust me, when space X success, every human being on our planet will benefit....Or free ride without guilt like the case of healthcare research :D

[JDNSW]

I think you are exaggerating the benefit to the rest of the world from US investment in health research. Don't forget that almost any drug brought to market only reaches the market because it is expected to be profitable. This means that little money is spent on research for the major health issues affecting those who cannot pay US prices for drugs (e.g. malaria), and that most research money goes into designing a slightly better drug than what is already available, as long as it is going to lead to a drug that is going to be used long term (hence an ongoing market).

For instance, relatively little money has gone into developing new antibiotics to overcome drug resistance. And remember that basic antibiotic research was not done in the USA, but in Britain, although the USA developed the first mass production methods.

But in general you are right - the world as a whole benefits from those people who are willing to risk a lot of their own money to pursue their dreams for something that everyone else regards as too risky. And the Australian attitude to tall poppies goes a long way to ensuring that nobody in Australia is ever going to amass enough wealth to do anything as large scale and risky as Musk is.

[DiscoMick]

It's not unusual for entrepreneurs pioneering new fields to lose money for several years, as long as the investors keep backing their vision.
Elon Musk's Tesla announces biggest quarterly loss ever | Technology | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/feb/07/tesla-quarterly-loss-elon-musk-spacex)

The Future According to Elon Musk (Infographic) (https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/302589)

[martnH]

I think you are exaggerating the benefit to the rest of the world from US investment in health research. Don't forget that almost any drug brought to market only reaches the market because it is expected to be profitable. This means that little money is spent on research for the major health issues affecting those who cannot pay US prices for drugs (e.g. malaria), and that most research money goes into designing a slightly better drug than what is already available, as long as it is going to lead to a drug that is going to be used long term (hence an ongoing market).

For instance, relatively little money has gone into developing new antibiotics to overcome drug resistance. And remember that basic antibiotic research was not done in the USA, but in Britain, although the USA developed the first mass production methods.

But in general you are right - the world as a whole benefits from those people who are willing to risk a lot of their own money to pursue their dreams for something that everyone else regards as too risky. And the Australian attitude to tall poppies goes a long way to ensuring that nobody in Australia is ever going to amass enough wealth to do anything as large scale and risky as Musk is.Thanks.

I worked for NICE at Manchester before and then for PBAC here in Australia. These are essentially the agencies responsible for drugs purchasing for the public health system. Australia and UK both are very socialist countries with universal public healthcare system. All these two agencies want is the best deals ever on drugs (to be exactly patented drugs), they are the extreme bargain hunters, the ones when you sell you winch on Gumtree for $700, will message you saying "$400 pickup tonight". The consequences is Australia is usually the last one to get the newly developed drugs (but probably get them with lowest price ever
It is known in the private sector that UK and Australia are the worst places to invest in drug research in the world (UK nowadays is a lot better....NICE was a very tough around 2010).

Once a drug lost its patent, Australia will always immediately switch to a generic copy made in India or China, all in the name of cost-effectiveness...

I know it sounds harsh but....It is true..
If one day Americans suddenly become smarter and stop spending 20% GDP on healthcare, we all gonna pay more for our healthcare and will have less innovations and breakthroughs

So I appreciate Americans do what they do best, free market economy with huge gambling investments...
They shall have the best first and we will get something similar later and cheaper.....

Cheers
Martin

[Homestar]

It's not unusual for entrepreneurs pioneering new fields to lose money for several years, as long as the investors keep backing their vision.
Elon Musk's Tesla announces biggest quarterly loss ever | Technology | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/feb/07/tesla-quarterly-loss-elon-musk-spacex)

The Future According to Elon Musk (Infographic) (https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/302589)

Agreed, but he better start selling some mark 3’s because losing more than $200 million a month is unsustainable no matter who you are...

[bee utey]

Agreed, but he better start selling some mark 3’s because losing more than $200 million a month is unsustainable no matter who you are...

I suspect the company is getting there.

Tesla's Model 3 deliveries awful but company sales record for 2017 - Business Insider (http://www.businessinsider.com/teslas-model-3-deliveries-awful-but-company-sales-record-for-2017-2018-1/?r=AU&IR=T)

Tesla just calmed one of investors' biggest fears about the Model 3 | Business Insider (https://www.businessinsider.com.au/tesla-earnings-model-3-is-not-hurting-model-s-model-x-sales-2018-2?r=US&IR=T)

[Toxic_Avenger]

Once a drug lost its patent, Australia will always immediately switch to a generic copy made in India or China, all in the name of cost-effectiveness...


OT, but this doesn't bother me.
Efficacy of the molecule is the same in the generic post patent. But within patent, I recall they can alter the drug molecule to keep the active site as-is but change a salt or other functional groups on the molecule to squeeze it in under a new patent (of course after all the clinical trials).

Trying to recall the numbers, but everyone's favourite statin, Lipitor, for lowering cholesterol, had a $12Bn R&D investement behind it over the course of its development. This investment was returned in the first 2 weeks of the drug's release. Not bad money if you can get it!

[JDNSW]

The problem for the pharmaceutical industry is not the successful drugs, but the money spent on dead end research that leads to no income whatever. Same as with mining, for example, where successful mining projects sometimes make the news because of "excess profits". Which ignores the exploration projects, development projects, and companies that never show a profit, or the ones that do only after many years - a good example being the local company Oil Search - founded in the 1920s, first actual production in the 1990s. I don't know if it is even really profitable yet, despite major production.

[Jojo]

The last pic of Starman in his red Roadster

136295


Starman in his Tesla (https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/08/elon-musk-shares-the-epic-last-photo-of-starman-in-the-red-tesla-he-shot-into-space.html)

[Mick_Marsh]

Live Views of Starman - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBr2kKAHN6M)

Love the message on the dash.
Douglas Adams would have chuckled.

Falcon Heavy - Life on Mars - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_i843Owka0)

[101 Ron]

What's got me stuffed is why the plastics and rubber tyres have not melted with the heat or gone brittle and cracked away with the cold.
I thought the whole thing would have turned to melted poo in short order.
May be the rotation from cold to hot is saving the cars looks???????
Elon during a question time after the launch didn't give a straight answer on if the space suit of spacex design was been tested and had any measuring gear inside it for radiation, pressure lost etc.

[JDNSW]

What's got me stuffed is why the plastics and rubber tyres have not melted with the heat or gone brittle and cracked away with the cold.
I thought the whole thing would have turned to melted poo in short order.
May be the rotation from cold to hot is saving the cars looks???????
Elon during a question time after the launch didn't give a straight answer on if the space suit of spacex design was been tested and had any measuring gear inside it for radiation, pressure lost etc.

I haven't watched the video (satellite internet) but I assume that the car was inside a fairing that was discarded after the probe was above the atmosphere. It would not get hot during the launch - the hot bit is the other end of the rocket. Certainly would be cold, although the lack of atmosphere means the only heat loss is radiation, and this has to be balanced against the heating from the sun - one side would get quite hot from that the other would get very cold, unless it is rotating.

As it got furhter from the sun, the heat from the sun would decrease, and it would get pretty cold. But virtually all the materials in the car would be preserved rather than damaged by the cold. Most damage would be from evaporation of volatiles, UV damage, and eventually, micrometeorites and high energy radiation.

[Eevo]

i was reading an article. apparently UV rays will destroy most of the car within a year.

[Mick_Marsh]

There was a Star Trek episode where they found a small truck floating in space.
The 37's (episode) | Memory Alpha | FANDOM powered by Wikia (http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/The_37%27s_%28episode%29)

[Mick_Marsh]

I can hardly wait for when the Martians will be exporting their latest craft beer to earth.
Gardening on Mars won't be as easy as Matt Damon made it look, but it's not impossible - RN - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-15/gardening-on-mars-good-news-we-can-make-alcohol-too/9447382)

[Pedro_The_Swift]

would need a long use-by date....[bigwhistle]

[Mick_Marsh]

would need a long use-by date....[bigwhistle]

Why? How long did it take the Tesla to get out beyond the orbit of Mars? A week?

[Tins]

It would be sad to see his ventures go belly up.

Sad for the US taxpayer, maybe. 200 years ago he'd have been tarred and feathered, or run out of town on a rail. If he puts a Tesla in orbit around Mars, I suggest that he crews it. Only fair.

[Tins]

But in general you are right - the world as a whole benefits from those people who are willing to risk a lot of their own money to pursue their dreams

There is the rub. Musk is risking US taxpayer's money, not his. His whole empire is based on subsidies from the taxpayer, so no risk for him. Musk will be just fine, win or lose.

[Tins]

would need a long use-by date....[bigwhistle]

So does XXXX in the civilised world.

[Tins]

Why? How long did it take the Tesla to get out beyond the orbit of Mars? A week?

I know they are quick, Mick, but are you sure??

[JDNSW]

There is the rub. Musk is risking US taxpayer's money, not his. His whole empire is based on subsidies from the taxpayer, so no risk for him. Musk will be just fine, win or lose.

I'm not sure where that comes from - as far as I can determine at a quick look, SpaceX has had no US taxpayer subsidies, being financed from private funds, including Musk's own money, plus deposits for launch services (some of which will be from the US taxpayer, but these launches cost the US taxpayer less than any available alternatives).

Musk himself is a multibillionaire (Wikipedia says about $20B), but his money did not come from any form of subsidy - it came from IT, specifically selling two startup companies. The first, Zip2, was sold to Compaq, The second, and online payments system, X.com merged with another company, Confinity, to become paypal, which was sold to ebay, with Musk's payment in ebay shares being the foundation of his fortune, as these shares rose significantly.

I can't find any evidence of large subsidies for Tesla, but even if they have had subsidies, I suspect they pale compared to the subsidies granted to major car manufacturers in the US following the GFC. And are irrelevant, seeing that SpaceX is not cross-subsidised from Tesla - both companies are losing money at the moment, I suspect, but are able to get private capital because the investors expect them to be successful.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

So does XXXX in the civilised world.

if by civilised you mean whatever the Kardashians are telling you to do/drink/wear this week,,,


[bighmmm]

[DiscoMick]

I wonder what the warranty is on his Tesla in space - he might have to extend the distance a bit.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

*phone rings

"Good Morning, Tesla Australia, How may I direct your call?"
"Service Centre please"
"One moment Sir"

"Service Centre"
"Do you have roadside Assist?"
"why yes sir,,"
" I have a small problem---"

[martnH]

OT, but this doesn't bother me.
Efficacy of the molecule is the same in the generic post patent. But within patent, I recall they can alter the drug molecule to keep the active site as-is but change a salt or other functional groups on the molecule to squeeze it in under a new patent (of course after all the clinical trials).

Trying to recall the numbers, but everyone's favourite statin, Lipitor, for lowering cholesterol, had a $12Bn R&D investement behind it over the course of its development. This investment was returned in the first 2 weeks of the drug's release. Not bad money if you can get it!Trump is very upset about PBAC haha

He basically said Australia need to respect American intellectual property...

I guess we are lucky because PBAC is such a bitch to negotiate with so that we always/usually get the best price... But from the perspective of pharmaceutical companis, you will hate PBAC to death.....

And now Trump is helping these big pharmas, pressing Australian government...Let's see what would come out of it..

P.S PBAC keep her negotiated prices secret... Just imagine what could happen if that leaks.... Aussie pay $50 while the rest of the world is paying $150 (don't get me wrong, I am proud of PBAC. Especially when they beat the **** out of big pharma

[PhilipA]

I can't find any evidence of large subsidies for Tesla, but even if they have had subsidies,
Mate one minute on a Google search would reveal a lot. Try "Tesla Subsidies"

Each car maker in the US has to pay Tesla about USD12000 for every Tesla sold to act as credits against the CAFE standard for fuel economy.

If you just Google Tesla subsidies
It looks like the state of California is bailing out Tesla - Business Insider (http://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-stock-price-california-state-government-bailing-out-2017-7?IR=T)
=$7500 per car.
California rebates are planned for the difference in price between an electric car and a normal car up to $40K.
Elon Musk's growing empire is fueled by $4.9 billion in government subsidies (http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-musk-subsidies-20150531-story.html)
LA Times estimates $4.9BILLION in subsidies.

There that took about 1 minute


Regard sPhilip A

[JDNSW]

And that is relevant to SpaceX in what way?

[bee utey]

And that is relevant to SpaceX in what way?

Just the usual gripes of fossil fuel advocates against Musk, who dares to buck the trend of making boring and predictable goodies. [biggrin]

Anyway, one of the articles suggests that these subsidies are perfectly normal for American industry, nothing out of the ordinary happening here at all.


Subsidies are handed out in all kinds of industries, with U.S. corporations collecting tens of billions of dollars each year, according to Good Jobs First, a nonprofit that tracks government subsidies. And the incentives for solar panels and electric cars are available to all companies that sell them.

[DiscoMick]

Elon Musk: we must colonise Mars to preserve our species in a third world war

Elon Musk: we must colonise Mars to preserve our species in a third world war | Technology | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/mar/11/elon-musk-colonise-mars-third-world-war?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard)

[Eevo]

he's a loony toon with the occasional good idea,

[trog]

Elon Musk: we must colonise Mars to preserve our species in a third world war

Elon Musk: we must colonise Mars to preserve our species in a third world war | Technology | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/mar/11/elon-musk-colonise-mars-third-world-war?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard)

If people are going to be stupid enough to blow up and poison the planet , we don’t need to inflict ourselves on another.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet. - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IM1-DQ2Wo_w&ab_channel=TronixTheCat)

[Toxic_Avenger]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2018/03/194.jpg

[trog]

Ready for my trip !

[DiscoMick]

Let's face it, humans don't have a great history of acting rationally for the survival of the species. We're well on the way to fouling our own nest. Maybe I should sign up for Mars.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Surely somwhere in the world theres a LR with MARS number plates,,,[bighmmm][bigrolf]