Rear wheel bearings

[200defenda]

So a simple wheel bearing and brakepad/rotor change. Has become somewhat of a costly hassle, ive only had the defender for about a year now, and am continually finding some really crappy fixes or lack of repairs by previous owners. On removal of the wheel bearing hub ive found previously someone has used a cold chisel to remove a possible seized bearing of the stub axle and has badly damaged the stub axle. The wheel bearing outer race on the same side is spinning in the wheel bearing hub. Also looks like the right hand side half shaft is twisted on the spline going into the diff. But the thing im most concerned about is that there is rusty/dirty crap inside the axles on both side and in the middle of the half shafts they have the same rusty crap on them. This on a salisbury diff has anybody else seen something like that before ?

[200defenda]

136144136145

[strangy]

Yes it happens on an around 30? yrs old car. Last owner/s /mechanic was a bit she'll be right.
Probably had water in the diff over its life. Most "used" 4wd do. Its just the way its maintained after wards that make the difference.
Id take the cover the diff for an inspection while you are at it.

Dont be tempted to bodge the repair.
Get a new or 2nd hand hub and stub.
Now is a good time for some Ashcroft or Maxi Drive axles and drive flanges.

[200defenda]

Yea i was thinking of ways of trying to clean out the crap.Its an arb air locker , what would you look for while inspecting the diff? Yea i definetly need a new stub axles and new wheel bearing hubs. There pretty price the half shafts, which one do you think is better maxi or ashcroft ?

[strangy]

Dont think you can go wrong either way.
I have Aschroft axles and flanges. These replaced some very old and neglected (prior to my ownership) maxi drives.
Ashcroft was chosen as at the time the dollar was up and the conversion rate landed the Ashcroft gear nearly 200 less than the Maxi Drive.

Pay careful attention to the teeth and look for signs of "pitting".
Check for debris,sludge, metal etc in the oil.

Im not familiar with the ARB airlocker so hopefully someone else will chime in.
It might be a good opportunity for a new seal/oring in the locker while youre in there

[JDNSW]

The locker probably explains the twisted spline - all the torque has gone to the one shaft at some stage. After all, that is what the locker is intended to enable!

[200defenda]

Dont think you can go wrong either way.
I have Aschroft axles and flanges. These replaced some very old and neglected (prior to my ownership) maxi drives.
Ashcroft was chosen as at the time the dollar was up and the conversion rate landed the Ashcroft gear nearly 200 less than the Maxi Drive.

Pay careful attention to the teeth and look for signs of "pitting".
Check for debris,sludge, metal etc in the oil.

Im not familiar with the ARB airlocker so hopefully someone else will chime in.
It might be a good opportunity for a new seal/oring in the locker while youre in there

Thank you i think thats definitely a good idea . Looking at receipts the locker isnt that old. So hopefully it is ok. How do you guys think the water would have entered the diff ? Through the breather? Its a shame its been neglected makes a easy job complicated

[JDNSW]

Water could have got in via breather or hub seals or pinion seal or even hubcap - you will not realise the seal is not performing perfectly unless it lets oil out. But there may not be an actual leak. Every time the axle heats up, the air inside expands. When it cools down, it contracts, drawing more air in.

If this air is near saturated with water vapour, and the axle then cools further (a common scenario as night falls), the air becomes saturated and water condenses out as a mist on the cold inner surface of the housing. If the car is used regularly, the chances are it will evaporate again on the next warming cycle, but if the vehicle is only used intermittently, it may start rust. And some of it will be absorbed by the diff oil to form sludge, particularly where this oil is only a thin film.

Worst situation is a vehicle with long periods of disuse in a humid climate, but that is used enough to occasionally get fully warmed up.

[simmo]

Hi 200 defenda.

Its a bit tough when you find problems and damage that are caused for the want of an hours labor and oil/grease. :(
I'd go with maxidrive if possible to support a local business, plus good support for future damage if it happens.

If you remove drive shafts and flanges you wash out the axle housing, most of the crap will be laying on the bottom, I pushed diesel soaked rags back wards and forwards though mine to get them spotless.

When you replace the stub axles, leave the drive shafts hub seal out, and replace the hub seals with high quality dual lip County hub seals. ( you're now converted to oil filled hubs on the back & 90 % of your troubles are behind you.

My car used to do a lot of deep water crossings and the grease lubed bearings and hubs were always giving me grief, after i changed to oil filed i don't think I've changed a bearing since. The hubs run cooler, the seals are better lubed I think I have changed a couple of seals in the last 100,000 kms.

If I suspect there's water in the hub I drain the oil and check, and then top up the diff after the hubs have refilled.

IMV the secret to long seal/bearing life, ( and an easy life for you), is setting the bearings properly so the hub doesn't "rock" on the stub axle. the hub is "rocking" it means the seal is moving onto and away from the seal face. I always do my bearings with a little pre load so there's no discernible rocking movement in the wheel. After adjustment the next run on the highway , coast to a stop and feel the hubs with your hand if you can hold your hand on them theyre ok, about 45 -50 deg is typical or ambient plus 20 deg. if you have an IR gun,

Don't forget to put some moly grease on your new drive flanges, and if your go for oil filled, the oil in the hub will also keep them lubed & clean. Once you get the rear hubs set up right its just an "annual" check by jacking up one wheel at a time and trying to "rock it", each year i usually have to adjust one of my bearings. I allow about i hour or 1.5 hours a year for this job. (4 wheels).

good luck, cheers simmo

PS have a pristine set of LR rear axles & drive flanges with plugs in them for oil filling in my spares if you need.

[200defenda]

Hi 200 defenda.

Its a bit tough when you find problems and damage that are caused for the want of an hours labor and oil/grease. :(
I'd go with maxidrive if possible to support a local business, plus good support for future damage if it happens.

If you remove drive shafts and flanges you wash out the axle housing, most of the crap will be laying on the bottom, I pushed diesel soaked rags back wards and forwards though mine to get them spotless.

When you replace the stub axles, leave the drive shafts hub seal out, and replace the hub seals with high quality dual lip County hub seals. ( you're now converted to oil filled hubs on the back & 90 % of your troubles are behind you.

My car used to do a lot of deep water crossings and the grease lubed bearings and hubs were always giving me grief, after i changed to oil filed i don't think I've changed a bearing since. The hubs run cooler, the seals are better lubed I think I have changed a couple of seals in the last 100,000 kms.

If I suspect there's water in the hub I drain the oil and check, and then top up the diff after the hubs have refilled.

IMV the secret to long seal/bearing life, ( and an easy life for you), is setting the bearings properly so the hub doesn't "rock" on the stub axle. the hub is "rocking" it means the seal is moving onto and away from the seal face. I always do my bearings with a little pre load so there's no discernible rocking movement in the wheel. After adjustment the next run on the highway , coast to a stop and feel the hubs with your hand if you can hold your hand on them theyre ok, about 45 -50 deg is typical or ambient plus 20 deg. if you have an IR gun,

Don't forget to put some moly grease on your new drive flanges, and if your go for oil filled, the oil in the hub will also keep them lubed & clean. Once you get the rear hubs set up right its just an "annual" check by jacking up one wheel at a time and trying to "rock it", each year i usually have to adjust one of my bearings. I allow about i hour or 1.5 hours a year for this job. (4 wheels).

good luck, cheers simmo

PS have a pristine set of LR rear axles & drive flanges with plugs in them for oil filling in my spares if you need.

Thank you simmo for the advice very much appreciated. I ordered a set of the upgraded flanges the ones with screw on end caps in prep for replacing the wheel bearings to do away with the rubber caps. When changing to oil filled bearings on the rear axle, so you do as you said with the seals. But do you also tap a plug in the end cap to be able to fill the wheel bearings ? And does that mean the wheel bearings share the rear diff oil as well? So when you change the diff oil you unscrew the bung or cap and drain the oil out either end of the axle? Or do they just drain through the diff? Sorry for all the questions also thank you for the offer of the axles.

[simmo]

Hi 200 defenda, I didn't drill and tap the maxidrive flanges they are made of 4140 steel, and i was worried about breaking the tap.

to drain the oil I unbolt the drive flanges and let the oil run out onto a sheet of tin and into a tray.

yes the hubs share the diff oil, they will fill from the diff , but will not drain back when you drain the diff.

be sure to put some teflon tape & a little grease on the big hex steel drive flange hub caps the thread is fine and they can be very hard to remove , ( especially i the bush) if you leave them for a while, I recommend you remove & refit them every year.

cheers simmo

pm sent

[Phil B]

X2 for the thread tape and grease.
DON’T use thread sealant. The nut will be very difficult to remove the next time if you do.

[weeds]

I have only ever used gas sealant as it doesn’t set......

I have seen difficulties (one case) in removing the nut when thread tape was applied.

[Solomon]

Purchased my 1995 130 in 1998 with 70,838km with standard axle shafts and seals. disks all round. Salsbury diff. 300tdi
70,838km to 162,299km - have no records but rear bearings frequently needing attention
162,299km regreased rear bearings and replaced plastic caps
165,661km replaced rear bearings and grease
183,019km installed Maxidrive axles, flanges, and difflock. (splines on drive flange and axle shot.). Seals changed such that bearings now oil-lubricated.
310,687km. Adjusted bearings as wobble in brake disk was forcing brake pads apart too much, requiring extra brake pedal effort/travel.
374,699km. Again adjusted bearings as wobble in brake disk was forcing brake pads apart too much, requiring extra brake pedal effort/travel.
408,870km on vehicle now.
My conclusions:
1. Original LR arrangement of grease no good as spilnes insufficently lubricated.
2. Maxidrive equipment and change to oil-lubrication proven over almost 250,000km

[martnH]

I have seen this argument many times and I am curious.....
(My puma defender comes with grease lubbed hub bearings..And I have been thinking of changing to oil lub)

Correct me if I am wrong. My understanding is that oil and grease both are lubricants.(onky discuss mineral oil here)

So first the mineral oil was invented as lubricants. It serves as a barrier between rolling surface...

Then people wanted to increase the viscosity of the oil. So they thicken the mineral oil by adding e.g. lithium based soap and born the grease...

So the bearing grease is just thicken oil....And the difference is essentially only viscosity....

Why would anyone prefer a lubricants with low viscosity for 4wd bearings? Is it to achieve low friction? Ease of maintenance?

I understand an avoidance of engergy lost due to friction and high speed are the reason why the transfer case and gearbox choose oil as lubricants...But it is the same for the road wheels? Where contamination is a bit of a problem? And also load bearing concerns (slow rotation)?

I changed my wheel bearings twice now, in both times, bearing grease was contaminated by external abbrasives (likely via the stupid rubber cap). And these destroy the race and bearing surface..

If oil is used there, won't the grits dirt travel further to the diff and destroy the diff as well?

To recap, I think oil as lubricants is applicable in the case of high speed rotation (e.g. gearbox transfer box engine). And grease is prefered in the case of load bearing and likely contamination,e.g. wheel bearings, propshafts

And for these reasons I choose not to convert to oil lub bearings..

Cheers
Martin

[uninformed]

The reason LR (BMW) changed to grease was for one part to stop oil leaks and unhappy customers. It’s not better than oil and many years have proved this. Do what makes you feel warm and fuzzy but don’t confuse that with sound engineering practices.

[martnH]

Not just Land Rover. I have done my research and Toyota Nissan they all moved from oil to grease. Even all the mining vehicles use grease now. But these heavy machines used automatic grease lubricator.

So if you use oil to lubricathe wheel bearings. It is splash lubrication so it is important to determine the oil level in the hub. And this will also need to be check routinely. and how would you do that?

Also if you raise the oil level in the diff, bear in mind that the diff is also splash lubricated, so it is likely the diff will be running hot because of that.

I suspect with the factory oil lub setup, the diff oil cavity is slightly raised so that to maintain the optimal oil level and temperature. Maybe an experienced expert can confirm this? Maybe land rover just doesn't care?


I never buy the "it has been working so it must be good" theory. First of all people usually don't report failure. This is report Bias.
Secondaly, I only live so long and see so many cars and obverses so many bearings.
My sample size is too small to draw any generalizable conclusions. Without sufficient database, the only supporting evidence one will have is theory....
But maybe an expert have more knowledge but yet he will also be limited by recall bias (meaning things he saw in the past was not documented at that time so what he recall now for the purpose of our discussion maybe biased towards his pre-set conclusion unconsciously

I am happy to learn new knowledge all day everyday....

Cheers
Martin

[Lionel]

My experience with Defender axles is that problems are experienced with the splines at the drive flange ends with the standard Defender setup. The standard flanges have a rubber seal which is rather ineffective in tough conditions resulting in moisture getting in. No attempt seems to be made at the factory to provide lubrication for the splines so they fret & wear, leaving a red rusty powder deposit.

The conversion to oil lubrication solves this, provided better drive flanges are used (eg. Maxidrive/HiTuff/Ashcroft). Oil works its way along the stub-axle & into the hub assembly, & the spline ends get some oil as well. with front axles there are some downsides, the main one being the need to regularly inspect the swivel ball seals for leakage, & of course, to top up the swivel housing periodically, depending on which seals one removes.

With front axles there are advocates for the various methods of lubrication - one-shot grease for the swivels & separate greasing for the splines, oil from the axle seal outwards while leaving the axle tube seal in place, or removal of the axle tube seal allowing the diff oil to travel right out to the drive flange. Each has their good points, but the general concensus from many years of experience seems to be that oil lubrication is better, if one is prepared for the increase in maintenance which may be required.

With the rears, IMHO there is no doubt that oil is better as it is basically a "set & forget" scenario. It is messy at brake disc renewal time, but this is a small price to pay for better spline & bearing lubrication.

Cheers.

Lionel

[uninformed]

Not just Land Rover. I have done my research and Toyota Nissan they all moved from oil to grease. Even all the mining vehicles use grease now. But these heavy machines used automatic grease lubricator.

So if you use oil to lubricathe wheel bearings. It is splash lubrication so it is important to determine the oil level in the hub. And this will also need to be check routinely. and how would you do that?

Also if you raise the oil level in the diff, bear in mind that the diff is also splash lubricated, so it is likely the diff will be running hot because of that.

I suspect with the factory oil lub setup, the diff oil cavity is slightly raised so that to maintain the optimal oil level and temperature. Maybe an experienced expert can confirm this? Maybe land rover just doesn't care?


I never buy the "it has been working so it must be good" theory. First of all people usually don't report failure. This is report Bias.
Secondaly, I only live so long and see so many cars and obverses so many bearings.
My sample size is too small to draw any generalizable conclusions. Without sufficient database, the only supporting evidence one will have is theory....
But maybe an expert have more knowledge but yet he will also be limited by recall bias (meaning things he saw in the past was not documented at that time so what he recall now for the purpose of our discussion maybe biased towards his pre-set conclusion unconsciously

I am happy to learn new knowledge all day everyday....

Cheers
Martin

how much fluid does LR spec for rear or front axle oil change. ... Calculate the empty volume inside the axle and related housings. Room for a bit extra without damage? Btw if you adding extra oil to lube the bearings or even the cv and bearings, this doesn’t mean you are increasing the level at the diff...

Get the specs for a early RRC and coil spring Land Rovers. These were their best as far as cv and wheel bearing set ups also, so don’t count going to grease as definitely an improvement.

since your not convinced by my experience 300,000 km on oil lubed bearings towing 250,000 of those, I can assure you Maxidrive highly recommend this conversion back to oil fed after decades of specialising in LR servicing and drive line upgrades.

i never check hub oil levels between services. Never check it at service either. Just change the oil and go.

Spline fretting, and wheel bearings failures were definitely less before LR changed to grease.

[JDNSW]

The only advantage of grease (and the reason it has been adopted) is that it does not readily leak. It does not provide as good lubrication, as, if it is displaced from a surface, it does not flow straight back in the way that oil does. The probable reason why oil lubricated bearings on Defenders last a lot better than grease lubricated ones though is, I suspect, because while if a seal is leaking the oil advertises the fact, and it tends to be fixed sooner rather than later, where with grease, a faulty seal does not let the grease out - but it does let the water and mud in.

[rick130]

Oil lubricated bearings also run cooler.

Big trucks still run oil lubed hubs as they run quite a bit cooler than greased hubs in their application and therefore don't require as much maintenance as a greased assembly.

Very high quality greases do stay in place. This is the purpose of the soap, it gives the lubricant stability as it absorbs and releases the oil.

FWIW I ran a very expensive race car bearing grease in my Defender front hubs, and oil in the rear.
The front bearings are as old as the rears, they have 260,000km on them now but they've needed a slight adjustment every eighteen months to two years vs never for the rears.

Whichever way you go, only use RTC3511 hub seals, they use a superior energized double lip arrangement, the newer versions only use a non energised single lip which are inferior as they let moisture and water in which obviously shortens the life of the bearings and axle/drive flange splines.

[200defenda]

So ive gone for oil filled bearings in the rear after some great advice. Last weekend we changed my brothers wheel bearings(timken bearings same brand as mine) in his 300tdi disco but we used grease and standard seals, including rubber end caps. We both do very similar driving, in the same sort of conditions So it will be an interesting experiment to see who has least issues or whos bearings remain in better condition. Might take awhile to get any results though, hopefully anyways.

[martnH]

Thanks for all comments.

Learned a few things...

I do have a problem with grease. There is no prescribed amount of grease to be applied. I am not sure if I am over pack the hub or severely over pack the hub with grease. I know this will result in high running temperature and reduced lubricity

So with the oil lub system, is contamination from hub to diff a concern?
Or if the upgraded metal drive flange cap is used with the upgraded hub seal, hub contamination is minimised?

Cheers

[uninformed]

I run mine oil, right through, front and rear. Some guys like to seperate the fronts and still run oil. Some swivel housings still have a drain or fill point ??

I fill the rear the LR service amount and then guess a bit more. Jack up the wheel and let it run some into the other end. Reverse repeat. For the fronts I have drilled and tapped the drive flange. I use a old school oil can and fill the hub after filling the diff the LR service amount.

I have the Maxidrive drive fanges (axles, lockers and custom cvs) a little teflon thread tape on the cap just to be sure for me

No exacts there but it seems to be fine so far.

Plenty of info on different ways guys do it on AULRO. Pick the one that makes you feel right

[simmo]

I have been running 60 cc for years, after running 80 cc for years, if you fill the hubs up the oil will leak through the seals or or pop off the rubber hubcaps when it expands, the hubs will run hotter.

Its easy to check the hub oil level, can put your hand on the hub after driving, (no heavy breaking), yes,= all good, -have oil on your rim ? no -its all good. But if you want technical rotate the drain plug to 4 o"clock position and some oil should come out. If i'm concerned there might be water in the hub I rotate it down to 6 o clock and drain some oil out to check, if the oil comes out "clean and bright", I rotate back to 3.30 or 4 o'clock and fill until it over flows. I can say that since using the county seal and going to oil filled, ( seal part number given earlier by another member) I have never found water in my hubs. I think the original defender hub seal is second class , I wouldn't fit one no mater what I was putting in my hubs.

The oil filled hub is oil bath lube , the oil spins with the hubs and the rollers roll through it, and the seals are always wet.

My car has original LR front axles, drive flanges, CVs, all oil filled. 220,000 kms, oil filling will benefit any LR car with any drive line component configuration. As mentioned earlier in this post and my earlier posts i have noticed the swivels seals are leaking slowly, there's a slow migration of oil from the swivels into the diff. But since my swivels have an oil level indicator plug its about 20 minutes to check and top up the level each year. ( drain a bit out of the bottom to check for water and top up to the correct level)

The wheel end splines and drive flanges will last forever if you put a teaspoon of grease in the rubber hubcap every year, I still do this even though my hubs are oil filled. ( maybe not the late model ones they seem to have a QA problem)

Regarding the rubber hub caps, I have never had a problem with them leaking, except when they get to about 5 years old, then they crack and start to leak slowly, but since they cost $8 i can live with that, and always have a spare or two in the car. i only use the genuine LR part and don't use any sealant on them, if you have oil filled hubs and there's oil leaking from the rubber hub cap it maybe there's too much oil in the hub, 80 mls is plenty. Easy to put in using a $1 plastic syringe from the chemist

The LR drive flange pictured below is drilled through and tapped 1/8" gas, its a fine thread tapered plug.The tap is not expensive, ( but buy a good one HSS, the drive flange is fairly tough material), and the plugs are cheap and easy to get at plumbing or engineering supplies. i use thread tape on them, but if you don't have any at the time its not a problem they seal without it.
The drive flange and axle pictures are original 1995, 220,000 kms, and I would say almost perfect condition. I didn't remove the seal from the swivel housing because i was too lazy. :)

I can't remember when i changed those bearings. Grease filled hub bearings have a big disadvantage, you can only lubricate the inside bearing by removing the hub, the grease will not flow there from the outside, the inside bearing is the one that is most vulnerable to contamination and fails the most in my experience. As mentioned oil filled has the disadvantage that when your seals go it will leak out, its usually obvious to you when they leak, you'll see the oil on your rim. I have replaced a couple of seals in the last 15 years, (100,000 km), but they were damaged because the wheel bearings were a little loos and the wheel was "rocking" in the stub axle.

cheers simmo

[uninformed]

Did LR change the fill point on rear axles, at diff, when they went from oil feed to grease? Did the capacity change? That would be my first point of call as we know at that point in time the housings did not change.

As far as filling the hubs up, you arent going to be able to physically fill the "hubs" up.

[uninformed]

I wonder how many independant LR mechanics from the last 20~30 years are reading this and having a good belly laugh (thats at me more than anyone particular)

Just dug out a old early genuine RRC owners manual:

Rover type diffs front and rear: 1.7L
Swivels: 0.26L each

Also dug out my genuine LR Def 300Tdi owners manual:

Rover type diffs: 1.7L
Sals: 2.26L

Now back in the day when these oil lubed/fed LR products where new and being serviced, who was checking hub or spline on the rears? My guess no one. WHen you do a oil change the oil is no way draining dry. So you drop the diff drain plug, drain and refill with your new oil to the fill point. Do up the filler plug, job done! The oil is getting out to those bearings and splines during driving. The residual amount left at change is enough not to do damage IMO.

Fronts, the swivel housing had 3 plugs: Drain, level and fill. My 300Tdi 110 has only the filler. The level plug point looks drilled and tapped, but is at 90 degrees to the swivel void, im guessing the hole just insnt drilled sideways to the level plug hole into the housing. There is no eveidence of the drain plug but I know where it is located.

They would have drained, filled to level. replaced plugs. Job done. No checking hubs etc. The RRC, Disco and 90s had integral drive flange at axle so no way of doing that there anyway.

If LR are giving 2 different levels for swivel and axle/diff Im guessing they had a oil seal between the two? Did the earlier series have oil right through?

What has phyiscally changed is the wheel bearing spacing. This means (I Think) shorter stub axle, shorter hub. Not by much mind you, so slightly less cavity

I wont comment on the drive flange with rubber cap as I dont deal with these.

Funny my LR Def owners manual gives the oil change procedure for the front swivel yet the 300Tdi is grease not oil lol..no mention of grease or amount.