D4 Rollover

[NoosaMick]

Any thoughts on this YouTube video?

Alloffroad #137 - 4x4 Victorian High Country Discovery 4 Rollover

I don’t fully understand how the engine would stall with an auto box and torque converter.

[jonesy63]

Any thoughts on this YouTube video?

Alloffroad #137 - 4x4 Victorian High Country Discovery 4 Rollover

I don’t fully understand how the engine would stall with an auto box and torque converter.

They do stall quite easily - especially on steep, long sand dunes and hills. Typically when the right boot was not used enough.

BTW, Mark (owner of D4 in roll-over) is on here - SimmAus. I have been on quite a few trips with him including VHC, Firetruck Hill at Lidsdale SF, etc. He is a really nice guy and such a shame it happened to him.

Cheers,
Rob

[LRD414]

Please note that the direct link to this video was removed due to mild swearing, which contravenes the forum's G-rating. You should be able to seek it out yourself if interested. It is a hard lesson in how easily things can go wrong and being aware of the potential to stall in extreme situations is important.

Scott

[cripesamighty]

Poor, poor bastard. That's God awful. My 'new to me' D3 stalls on the odd occasion (only when slowing down with my foot off the accelerator), but that is due to the low pressure fuel pump being on the way out. Would hate that to happen to me on a steep slope.

[Disco4Dave]

Good tip about engaging Hill Descent Control (HDC) on difficult terrain for both climbing and descending.
They stated that HDC works even if the engine has stalled, and suggested that if it had been engaged during the climb the situation that led to the rollover may have been avoided.
Do any experts here have any further HDC advice or caveats to add please?

[weeds]

Could he have jumped on the brake pedal.....??

How hard is it to brake a D4 without engine running??

[Tins]

Please note that the direct link to this video was removed due to mild swearing, which contravenes the forum's G-rating. You should be able to seek it out yourself if interested. It is a hard lesson in how easily things can go wrong and being aware of the potential to stall in extreme situations is important.

Scott

I watched that vid the other day, and I'm surprised that the swearing was only mild. It was a very nasty roll, and I'm glad Mark is ok.

[discojools]

Looks to me that the suspension was set at max max height. I wonder if he had LLAMS or rods plus LR off road height set. This would have reduced the droop to almost nothing. Surely that could contribute to a higher centre of gravity and also not all 4 wheels in contact with the ground. That combine with dropping in the hole would have been his undoing. Good to see that the driver is OK.
I know that when I have had that setting the car has very little grip and is only really usefull used sparingly. Good for getting out of deep ruts. I am not sure that HDC would work if the ignition or engine was turned off if indeed it was.
A friend of mine in her auto 80 series had a very similar rollover. Car was written off.

[trout1105]

The D4 looked to be loaded up to the hilt which would have been a contributing factor in this roll over one would think.

[AnD3rew]

Please note that the direct link to this video was removed due to mild swearing, which contravenes the forum's G-rating. You should be able to seek it out yourself if interested. It is a hard lesson in how easily things can go wrong and being aware of the potential to stall in extreme situations is important.

Scott

Do we think it’s time this forum grew up a little on the extreme enforcement of mild swearing rules? As far as I am aware most if not all of us are adults here and even my kids have been exposed to mild swearing out ther in the real world since they went to school.

not having a go at you personally LRD414, but really?

[Geedublya]

Do we think it’s time this forum grew up a little on the extreme enforcement of mild swearing rules? As far as I am aware most if not all of us are adults here and even my kids have been exposed to mild swearing out ther in the real world since they went to school.

not having a go at you personally LRD414, but really?

It is more to do with income that helps pay for the forum than lack of tolerance by incisor.

[LRD414]

It is more to do with income that helps pay for the forum than lack of tolerance by incisor.

It is everything to do with this. There is no forum at all without the advertising revenue that is entirely predicated on a G-rating (as defined by Google et al) and member subscriptions.

Let’s please keep this thread on topic.

Scott

[LRD414]

The idea that HDC is available with engine off doesn’t sound correct to me and is the first I’ve heard of it. I certainly wouldn’t be relying on that.

I do agree re less stability when at higher than off-road height and always try to have the height as low as practical for the terrain.

I have been in a stall situation a couple of times with a loss of traction on very steep slopes. Holding the vehicle with the foot brake wasn’t difficult as far as I remember while re-starting.

I reckon slipping into that gully would have been enough to initiate a roll.

Scott

[BobD]

Any thoughts on this YouTube video?

Alloffroad #137 - 4x4 Victorian High Country Discovery 4 Rollover

I don’t fully understand how the engine would stall with an auto box and torque converter.

He said that the engine turned itself off to protect the transmission once the car started rolling backwards in a forward gear. Not the best way for the car to protect itself under the circumstances!

Good points about the HDC. I'd never thought of that as a safety backup if something went wrong with the engine or transmission on such a steep slope.

He said that the EPB should automatically activate but it doesn't on my D4 or L405. The EPB auto activates on my 2017 DS though, when the engine is turned off or the transmission is put in Park.

[rangieman]

Do we think it’s time this forum grew up a little on the extreme enforcement of mild swearing rules? As far as I am aware most if not all of us are adults here and even my kids have been exposed to mild swearing out ther in the real world since they went to school.

not having a go at you personally LRD414, but really?
Crack`s me up turn any free to air TV on and cop the language on there and they still make money [bighmmm]
But they dont have deal with Google and this adsense crapola[wink11]

[Tins]

But they dont have deal with Google and this adsense crapola[wink11]

It's virtue signalling, and hopefully it will pass. Meantime, we have to put up with it here for Inc's sake. Wish it wasn't the case. I am sick of being constrained by people who have not earned my respect. From what I know of you, Chris, I would imagine you feel the same. **** 'em. (Swear filter test[bigsmile1]).

[scarry]

He said that the engine turned itself off to protect the transmission once the car started rolling backwards in a forward gear. Not the best way for the car to protect itself under the circumstances!

Does this actually happen?Definitely didn't in the D2 i had.

Good points about the HDC. I'd never thought of that as a safety backup if something went wrong with the engine or transmission on such a steep slope.

Will HDC definitely operate if the vehicle engine is not running?

He said that the EPB should automatically activate but it doesn't on my D4 or L405. The EPB auto activates on my 2017 DS though, when the engine is turned off or the transmission is put in Park.

Only does on later D4's,mine doesn't.




Lots of questions,we will probably never find out what exactly did happen.

The main thing is no one was injured,but it does show how easily these thing can and do happen.

[SimmAus]

All
Guilty as charged. My D4, my rollover, something not on the bucket list ticked off, but I walked away with a few “non AULRO permitted” bleeps and few bruises.
To clarify a few things written above:
Height setting and loaded to hilt....irrelevant to the cause of the rollover and not quite correct.
The track was an uphill climb, loss of traction, stalling occurred.
The rolling backwards (the part that really concerns me, as I’m pretty sure my foot was planted on the brakes - which is also needed to restart a stalled vehicle) caused the vehicle to barrel roll off the track (as the track edge disappeared down the embankment). The vehicle did not roll on the track, it rolled backwards down the track, off the edge, and then barrel rolled.
HDC working in reverse with engine off / auto park brake
HDC in reverse definitely works when the engine is running, I have used this a few times. HDC was not engaged, although comment has been made about it working with the engine off...I’m not sure. Lesson learned though...tough steep climbs, maybe engage HDC.
Auto park brake - this did not occur, probably as it is a feature added / removed before / after my model.
Thanks for the wishes, sorry for the swearing ;-)
A few lessons learned, ultimately line was about 10cms wrong, and I walked away. Glad it was in a D4.

[ozscott]

Hi Simm. Very sorry to see you D4 on its side. Mate I have had a situation where my vehicle stalled and rolled back only a foot or so and by the time I bit the brake she slid a bit before the brakes stopped her (very steep.climb). I wonder if yours may have slid under brakes off the side? Ie the ABS did not allow the tyres to bite into the dirt and kept releasing slightly tbe pressure on the rotors before lock up.

Cheers

[eddomak]

All
A few lessons learned, ultimately line was about 10cms wrong, and I walked away. Glad it was in a D4.
It looked like a wonderful and sensible trip with friends, I am so glad you are OK, and that your insurance paid out. Keep on keeping on! [biggrin]

[LRD414]

Thanks Mark, that answers a few of the questions and really glad to hear you’re alright. It looked horrendous. Will you be getting “back in the saddle” D4 wise after this experience?

And you don’t have to apologise for the swearing at all. I’m sure I would have been way worse and it’s a simple matter to find and watch. I really appreciate that you consented to it being made so public via YouTube. It’s a sobering lesson as to what can happen when a couple of little things conspire against you. And the rest of the video looked like a great trip (up to that point obviously).

Cheers,
Scott

[Tins]

something not on the bucket list ticked off, but I walked away with a few “non AULRO permitted” bleeps and few bruises.


One thing I have learnt. The bucket list chooses you, not the other way around. Most of us miss out on it completely.

As stated, I am glad you got out unscathed. Swear your head off. I'm sure I would. Not so sure that I would scramble up out of the ditch the way you did. You did us 'older' types proud. Well done.

[Tombie]

Glad you’re ok mate.

The Auto park brake only engages if the engine is shut down via the button.
Under a stall did the dash remain lit up (like when the button is pressed without the brake)?

[Nicky]

It looked like a wonderful and sensible trip with friends, I am so glad you are OK, and that your insurance paid out. Keep on keeping on! [biggrin]

Can anyone post about insurance when going on these tracks? Exclusions, conditions etc etc

[SimmAus]

Thanks Mark, that answers a few of the questions and really glad to hear you’re alright. It looked horrendous. Will you be getting “back in the saddle” D4 wise after this experience?

Cheers,
Scott

Keen to get back in saddle, I so thoroughly love driving this dusty island I couldn’t imagine not doing so again.

I’m really torn on vehicle....
Used 2.7 D4
Used 3.0 D4
New D5....
Wait to see what the Defender is like.

My timing is shocking...would’ve held onto my D4 until new defender comes....and then make a decision.

A nice / not so nice position to be in !!!!

[SimmAus]

Glad you’re ok mate.

The Auto park brake only engages if the engine is shut down via the button.
Under a stall did the dash remain lit up (like when the button is pressed without the brake)?


Thanks.

My auto park brake never engaged when engine was shutdown. I think this was only added after MY12.

Dash was lit up.

Cheers

[SimmAus]

Can anyone post about insurance when going on these tracks? Exclusions, conditions etc etc

Gazetted tracks are usually fine, I have heard.
I would suggest checking your own insurance though.

In my case, when I made the claim with my insurer online, their system allowed me to choose the track name from a “drop down” type menu. I did not have any “special” insurance or “specialist”insurance...it was a well known main stream insurer.

I would imagine most insurance is the same...but checking advised.

[PerthDisco]

Glad you are ok SimmAus.

My goodness, that countryside is spectacular for off roading. Incredible.

[JDNSW]

Do we think it’s time this forum grew up a little on the extreme enforcement of mild swearing rules? As far as I am aware most if not all of us are adults here and even my kids have been exposed to mild swearing out ther in the real world since they went to school.

not having a go at you personally LRD414, but really?

It is irrelevant what we think - the reality is that these rules are imposed by the advertising stream provider (Google I believe), and this adverting is necessary to keep this site running.

[jon3950]

Thanks for sharing that with us Mark. I watched that video a couple of days ago with a sense of dread waiting for the end. Just glad you were OK.

It shows how quickly things can go from benign to catastrophic up there and is a salient reminder for all of us. Lucky you weren’t in a Defender - if you’re going to do that sort of thing a D4 would be the vehicle of choice.

A new D5 must be tempting, but my vote would be for a late D4 with 3.0l and 8 speed. Get a set of 18”s for it then trade it on a new Defender once it’s been out long enough.

Then again a D5 might give Stefan more to complain about..... ;)

Whatever you end up with, hope to see you out on the tracks again soon - or the road, you’re the only D4 I got waves from!

Cheers,
Jon

[LRD414]

A new D5 must be tempting, but my vote would be for a late D4 with 3.0l and 8 speed. Get a set of 18”s for it then trade it on a new Defender once it’s been out long enough.
My thoughts exactly.

Scott

[manic]

Wow, sounds like the D4 killed itself!? I doubt many owners would expect one to stall and roll back like that.

As for replacement, perhaps same again. That way you can easily transfer your kit and knowledge across - get back out there in no time.

OR if you want full control (for all the blame), a manual Defender with antistall? *runs for cover*


Relieved to hear no injuries, the after shock is bad enough without them. We had a D1 flip at speed on our last trip. Ghost white for hours, and many profanities!

[PerthDisco]

Wow, sounds like the D4 killed itself!? I doubt many owners would expect one to stall and roll back like that.

Isn’t it just possible given the steepness And gravelly surface that with a tiny bit of momentum it slid back with wheels locked up. Human nature would be to push the brake pedal through the floor no matter engine off or on.

[letherm]

Keen to get back in saddle, I so thoroughly love driving this dusty island I couldn’t imagine not doing so again.

I’m really torn on vehicle....
Used 2.7 D4
Used 3.0 D4
New D5....
Wait to see what the Defender is like.

My timing is shocking...would’ve held onto my D4 until new defender comes....and then make a decision.

A nice / not so nice position to be in !!!!

I drove a D5 as a loaner for a few days last November when my car was in for service and they had to wait for spare parts. Personally, I didn't like it as much as the D4 and was glad to get my D4 back. It drove ok, even with the 4 cylinder engine which was a surprise I must admit. The weight reduction has certainly improved the car. I wonder what a real engine would do? It would probably be a good choice for a purely town car with no towing needs though. The main issues for me were side visibility through the rear windows and what I thought was a decrease in usable load space. I can get my wife's wheelchair (with the main wheels removed) comfortably into the D4. It sits upright against the left hand side secured by an occy strap to the cargo barrier. Didn't come close in the D5. I had to lay it down to get it in and this effectively reduced the amount of usable load space. The other issue there was that the 2nd row seats don't seem to fold down flat like the D4 once again impacting the load space. Don't get me wrong, it was good to drive and even as a low spec version had a reasonable amount of accessories but obviously less than "normal" so to speak.

So pluses and minuses, but for me, no.

Martin

[Tins]

Can anyone post about insurance when going on these tracks? Exclusions, conditions etc etc

Varies from insurer to insurer. Allianz told me my car was covered anywhere it was legal to drive it. So, in a farm paddock if I had the owner's permission, on Rainbow, or any track or road where vehicles are permitted. They made it clear that I would NOT be covered if the road/track was officially closed, or if I strayed from the track into the bush. I cannot say if this is still the case.

So, shop around.

[Tins]

My goodness, that countryside is spectacular for off roading. Incredible.

Come on over. The Vic High Country is worth the trip.

[gofish]

Wow, what an ordeal. Glad to hear you are OK. If only one possitive, maybe a lesson/knowledge for the rest of us. An accident like yours obviously gets conversation going. If it saves another in a similar situation then at least something was gained. Best of luck with your future ride.

[Redback]

Glad you're OK Mark, could have been worse, the car is replaceable you are not.

HDC turns off once you apply the foot brake, HDC works only if the engine is running but will work in neutral.

3 ton of rolling mass on a very steep hill would be hard to stop and with that momentum dropping into a hole will always end badly.

Baz.

[AnD3rew]

It is everything to do with this. There is no forum at all without the advertising revenue that is entirely predicated on a G-rating (as defined by Google et al) and member subscriptions.

Let’s please keep this thread on topic.

Scott

Thanks for the explanation, I wasn’t aware of that. Still stupid, but I get it now.

[Uberdisco]

Poor, poor bastard. That's God awful. My 'new to me' D3 stalls on the odd occasion (only when slowing down with my foot off the accelerator), but that is due to the low pressure fuel pump being on the way out. Would hate that to happen to me on a steep slope.Cripes same thing is happening to me. I havent worked out what is it either yet. If you come up with anything please let me know.

Sent from my SM-N920I using Tapatalk

[Arapiles]

All
Guilty as charged. My D4, my rollover, something not on the bucket list ticked off, but I walked away with a few “non AULRO permitted” bleeps and few bruises. .....
A few lessons learned, ultimately line was about 10cms wrong, and I walked away. Glad it was in a D4.

Sorry to see this, and glad that you're OK.

But it is reassuring that it appears that the rear doors were still able to be opened after the barrel roll and the B pillar looks to be in good condition, all of which says a lot about the structural integrity of the monocoque body. How did the bonnet, A pillar and front doors fare?

[cripesamighty]

"Cripes same thing is happening to me. I havent worked out what is it either yet. If you come up with anything please let me know."

After having had a scout around on this forum and from the advice I got from my Indy, it's most likely either the low pressure or the high pressure fuel pump.
I'm hoping in my case it is the LPFP and not the HPFP because;
a) it's MUCH cheaper,
b) easier to fit, and
c) the HPFP was changed on my car a couple of years before I bought it.

Hope that helps.

[SimmAus]

Sorry to see this, and glad that you're OK.

But it is reassuring that it appears that the rear doors were still able to be opened after the barrel roll and the B pillar looks to be in good condition, all of which says a lot about the structural integrity of the monocoque body. How did the bonnet, A pillar and front doors fare?

Thanks.
Didn’t try the bonnet (no need to).
From memory front and rear doors still opened (except those blocked by a tree / the mountainside)
I was very impressed by structural integrity of vehicle.
The only panel creasing I noted was top c pillar /roof on one corner. (Slightly)
All side / curtain bags deployed. 1 or 2 rear windows shattered.
As I said earlier...glad I was in a D4, could’ve been a lot worse.
I should try and get “after” photos....

[Tombie]

Thanks.

My auto park brake never engaged when engine was shutdown. I think this was only added after MY12.

Dash was lit up.

Cheers

Thanks. You had the 6 speed box then?

The 8 speed is the only one that auto park brakes.

[jspyle]

Mark glad you're OK.
I noticed in the video that you had a crash barrier and most of your gear was behind it.
did the crash barrier, in your opinion, aid the structural integrity?
my understanding from the comments on the video is that you were a little off your chosen track (line) and hit the step in the gully and this is what caused the stall.
i've been known to be wrong before though.

Regards.

[Arapiles]

Thanks.
Didn’t try the bonnet (no need to).
From memory front and rear doors still opened (except those blocked by a tree / the mountainside)
I was very impressed by structural integrity of vehicle.
The only panel creasing I noted was top c pillar /roof on one corner. (Slightly)
All side / curtain bags deployed. 1 or 2 rear windows shattered.
As I said earlier...glad I was in a D4, could’ve been a lot worse.
I should try and get “after” photos....

"After" photos would be interesting to see - your D4 looks to have done much better than a Defender would've, judging from photos of rolled or crashed Defenders which I've seen.

[cripesamighty]

I'm just glad you made it out ok. That looked scary as hell.

[SimmAus]

Mark glad you're OK.
I noticed in the video that you had a crash barrier and most of your gear was behind it.
did the crash barrier, in your opinion, aid the structural integrity?
my understanding from the comments on the video is that you were a little off your chosen track (line) and hit the step in the gully and this is what caused the stall.
i've been known to be wrong before though.

Regards.

It’s difficult to say conclusively. The barrier definitely stopped other gear flying forward...and for that reason is the first mod I would add to any vehicle on these trips.
I do store stuff on the second row, but it is usually soft bedding stuff or tied down.
I have heard that the cargo barriers add to the integrity, and they may well do so. I didn’t inspect the barrier or gaps between roof and barrier to check.

[Tins]

"After" photos would be interesting to see - your D4 looks to have done much better than a Defender would've, judging from photos of rolled or crashed Defenders which I've seen.

Modern monocoque vs ancient ladder chassis with bits hanging off it. Precisely why the Defender has gone. You can do safe, up to date ladder and body, but it ain't cheap.

Modern monocoque is designed to sacrifice the car to protect it's occupants. The D4 was a write off the second it started rolling back.

[ozscott]

The Defender is very week above the doors. Always has been. The d2 is chassis but they do rollovers a lot better.

Cheers

[Tins]

The Defender is very week above the doors. Always has been. The d2 is chassis but they do rollovers a lot better.

Cheers

Indeed. The D2 was an interesting compromise, being monocoque over ladder, as were most LR cars from D2, P38A, right through to the last gen RRS. In fact, I believe the D1 gets a guernsey as well, but it wasn't nearly as safe. Just like RRCs.

Don't get me wrong, safety is good, especially for those who have kids. LR's work needs to be respected. The structural integrity of Mark's D4 saved his life. I used to tool around, on tracks like that, in a G60 Patrol ragtop. Everywhere at full throttle because that is the only way the car would get up. A crash like Mark had was easily on the cards, but the difference is, I wouldn't have survived it, unless I was thrown.

[shanegtr]

Mark glad you're OK.
I noticed in the video that you had a crash barrier and most of your gear was behind it.
did the crash barrier, in your opinion, aid the structural integrity?
my understanding from the comments on the video is that you were a little off your chosen track (line) and hit the step in the gully and this is what caused the stall.
i've been known to be wrong before though.

Regards.
Not referring to the D3/4 specifically here - but Im not convinced that cargo barriers will offer anything significant as far as structural integrity goes. 4 years ago I went through a fairly significant rollover (highway speed) in my old 80 series landcruiser. The most affected part that got crushed was the A and B pillars. The C pillar where a cargo barrier would be (didnt have a cargo barrier in my cruiser as the 3rd row seating was being used) was hardly affected. I just belive that the extra strength needed for a rollever is up at the A and B pillar as the engine seems to weigh the front down a bit.

[Arapiles]

Not referring to the D3/4 specifically here - but Im not convinced that cargo barriers will offer anything significant as far as structural integrity goes. 4 years ago I went through a fairly significant rollover (highway speed) in my old 80 series landcruiser. The most affected part that got crushed was the A and B pillars. The C pillar where a cargo barrier would be (didnt have a cargo barrier in my cruiser as the 3rd row seating was being used) was hardly affected. I just belive that the extra strength needed for a rollever is up at the A and B pillar as the engine seems to weigh the front down a bit.


Cargo barriers are definitely worthwhile in terms of stopping cargo coming forward - I had one in my CR-V. Also lets you pack soft-stuff up to the roof. I'd fit one permanently in any vehicle where I wasn't using third row seats. But they're not fitted hard against the roof so if they were assisting in a roll-over you'd expect to see the roof crushed in to the top of the barrier. In any non-monocoque 4WD that would probably really help. But there's video on YouTube of a Range Rover barrel rolling multiple times at speed and when it comes to rest the body looks remarkably intact, including the C pillars and the area between the C pillars and I'd guess that the D4 would be similar, so an
internal roll cage probably isn't needed.

[rocmic]

Mark
Just watched Stefan's video. Very glad that you are OK. The car is just glass, metal and plastic, but you are are precious and vulnerable.
There is no doubt that the D3/D4 are incredibly strong.
By the way, welcome to the club (Pub with no beer - Anzac day annual pilgrimage (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/nsw-and-act-reports/235146-pub-no-beer-anzac-day-annual-pilgrimage-post2535494.html#post2535494)) that noone really wants to be a member of.
Again glad that you are OK.
Cheers
Mike

[SimmAus]

Mark
Just watched Stefan's video. Very glad that you are OK. The car is just glass, metal and plastic, but you are are precious and vulnerable.
There is no doubt that the D3/D4 are incredibly strong.
By the way, welcome to the club (Pub with no beer - Anzac day annual pilgrimage (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/nsw-and-act-reports/235146-pub-no-beer-anzac-day-annual-pilgrimage-post2535494.html#post2535494)) that noone really wants to be a member of.
Again glad that you are OK.
Cheers
Mike

Thanks Mike
I did recall your adventure whilst I was thanking the stars the night I rolled. At least there was a pub (with beer/whisky iirc) nearby for you to self medicate.... I was in a field...
I hope the club membership stays at us two....!

Thanks again
Mark

[scarry]

Not referring to the D3/4 specifically here - but Im not convinced that cargo barriers will offer anything significant as far as structural integrity goes. 4 years ago I went through a fairly significant rollover (highway speed) in my old 80 series landcruiser. The most affected part that got crushed was the A and B pillars. The C pillar where a cargo barrier would be (didnt have a cargo barrier in my cruiser as the 3rd row seating was being used) was hardly affected. I just belive that the extra strength needed for a rollever is up at the A and B pillar as the engine seems to weigh the front down a bit.

There was a pic in the Milford adds for years of a D1 that had rolled,the barrier did a pretty good job of stopping more damage to the rear section of the vehicle.
I think the vehicle may have been owned by someone on here.

I have had one fitted to every wagon we have ever had,in my opinion they are an essential piece of kit,both for safety and help with packing gear in the rear section.
They are easy enough to remove if the rear seats in a seven seater are used.

In fact,in a dual cab or single cab ute, they should also be fitted just behind the the rear window,no matter whether the vehicle is a tray back,tub back or is fitted with a canopy.

[blackrangie]

Do we think it’s time this forum grew up a little on the extreme enforcement of mild swearing rules? As far as I am aware most if not all of us are adults here and even my kids have been exposed to mild swearing out ther in the real world since they went to school.

not having a go at you personally LRD414, but really?Part of really growing up is being able to put a sentance together without swearing

[blackrangie]

Keen to get back in saddle, I so thoroughly love driving this dusty island I couldn’t imagine not doing so again.

I’m really torn on vehicle....
Used 2.7 D4
Used 3.0 D4
New D5....
Wait to see what the Defender is like.

My timing is shocking...would’ve held onto my D4 until new defender comes....and then make a decision.

A nice / not so nice position to be in !!!!With the new defender so close, I would wait, or get an intermediate. The best defender might also not be straight away, the SVX may come later as was the case with the SVX disco (uprated susp, winch etc)

[DiscoJeffster]

Part of really growing up is being able to put a sentance together without swearing

And being able to spell?
*sentence.

You set that up, I just had to hit it out of the park.

[blackrangie]

And being able to spell?
*sentence.

You set that up, I just had to hit it out of the park.Still growing up by the looks

[SBD4]

Glad you came out of it OK Mark - thank god for that tree! Scary stuff.

Do you remember how the brakes felt under foot? Just wondering if perhaps you lost brake boost at some point which would have made it very hard to stop. I understand that the brakes are designed to maintain boost pressure in the event that the engine stops. Not sure how many pumps that gives you though.

[DiscoJeffster]

Still growing up by the looks

I’ll leave you to your grown up life. I enjoy being a child at heart.

[blackrangie]

I’ll leave you to your grown up life. I enjoy being a child at heart.Dont we all, as i said by my spelling mistake that you pointed out in a grown up way [emoji6], looks like im still growing up..[emoji4]
As im sure you understand my point was, swearing is usually used when someone can't think of a word to fill a sentence or to offend. My reply was to someone saying that swearing is grown up..In fact its far from it.

[blackrangie]

Still growing up by the looksPs. I was referring to myself [emoji23]

[Tombie]

Dont we all, as i said by my spelling mistake that you pointed out in a grown up way [emoji6], looks like im still growing up..[emoji4]
As im sure you understand my point was, swearing is usually used when someone can't think of a word to fill a sentence or to offend. My reply was to someone saying that swearing is grown up..In fact its far from it.

Nah!!!

I just like saying **** a lot [emoji48]

[blackrangie]

Nah!!!

I just like saying **** a lot [emoji48]Ha

[NoosaMick]

Thank you SimmAus for you’re first hand account of the incident. I have been a passenger in a highway rollover and also witnessed a multi-rollover with an off-road vehicle.

I fully understand how quickly this occurs and how this could easily happen to any 4x4 driver, regardless of how capable we think we are.

Good to hear you are ok, and a few choice words were only to be expected.

As a D4 owner, my reason for starting this thread was to try and understand, if there is anything I could learn from this incident.

I now realise the D4’s electronics will cut-out the engine, if rolling backwards on a steep incline. Terrifying and probably something you were also unaware of. I am guessing this gives the driver a few milliseconds to apply the brakes before an uncontrollable slide backwards.

Also, I assume the brakes are going to fully lock the wheels without any ‘electronic’ interference, to hold position for an engine restart. Any HDS, ABS or DSC could be a problem, unless intending to descend backwards.

From what you say, a little more gas and a slightly changed line could have made all the difference. But you would not expect such a catastrophic outcome from a minor error.

So a D5 for the future? I know we are all supposed to embrace change, but there’s something intrinsic to a Land Rover in having a chassis. ‘Triggers Broom Paradox’ will be lost on these new models and I don’t see how a glued aluminium monocoque will ever be better than a steel chassis for the longevity of the marque.

However a lower CoG without losing ground clearance makes a lot of sense and may even help to prevent rollovers.

[Tombie]

So... I’ve gone out and checked this...
The engine does NOT shut down if rolling back... what has happened is in low range the box can lock up the TC in any gear and if it comes to a sudden stop can stall (just like any auto - take an Auto car out, speed up and anchor the brakes full bore - it can stall).

I’ve also been in a steep climb where sudden loss of traction was found. In that instance we slid back out of control for over 200mtrs, only jamming it into reverse and releasing the brakes and steering like crazy saved it (luck). This wasn’t a new vehicle but an old school D1.

Offsets, ruts, angles, velocity changes all happen in the blink of an eye in these situations and gravity really does suck [emoji6]

Once it’s offline it’s gone, that simple.

As for a Monocoque- Jeeps been doing it successfully for decades without issues.

Technology (construction) has far surpassed a chassis, which was done for convenience rather than outright strength.

[Russrobe]

Sending my condolences for the loss of your D4 Mark. It may just be a form of transport but, as anyone who's written off any form of pride and joy knows, it's a gut wrenching feeling. Glad your okay though.

I've stalled my 2.7l 2010 twice while off-roading, both times were while climbing steep rocks and the brakes did work afterwards, although the sudden loss of power does jerk the car, and could easily result in slipping on any loose surface downhill. I definitely wasn't rolling backwards when it stalled, I was applying throttle from a standstill with no wheels spinning, which aligns with Tombie's theory. If you had hit that rut and after a few spins the rubber grabbed traction, stopping all 4 wheels spinning and loading up the drivetrain you would have been in the exact same situation.

Classic example of slightly offline and your over here, TJM Vehicle Rollover on Offroad Adventure Show Season 4 Ep7 - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGpa1LrOFlY) 23seconds is all you need to see.

[Jimmy Salsa]

They stall quite easily when they get out of shape and the traction control can't work out what the hell is going on. It's one of LR's crazy engine protection mechanisms.




Any thoughts on this YouTube video?

Alloffroad #137 - 4x4 Victorian High Country Discovery 4 Rollover

I don’t fully understand how the engine would stall with an auto box and torque converter.

[veebs]

They stall quite easily when they get out of shape and the traction control can't work out what the hell is going on. It's one of LR's crazy engine protection mechanisms.

Hadn't heard that - strange that this would be a deliberate shut down of the engine?

On the other hand, I'll bet the engine of the OP's vehicle is still in great shape...

[blackrangie]

They stall quite easily when they get out of shape and the traction control can't work out what the hell is going on. It's one of LR's crazy engine protection mechanisms.Could be to stop power going to wheels in certain scenarios. like pushing clutch on a manual trans to stop tipping backwards rollover. There have been times where I have had to select neutral quickly in my auto to stop front going over the back.

[Eevo]

The engine does NOT shut down if rolling back... what has happened is in low range the box can lock up the TC in any gear and if it comes to a sudden stop can stall (just like any auto - take an Auto car out, speed up and anchor the brakes full bore - it can stall).


i did not know this. thanks for posting.



glad to hear mark is ok. im just waiting for the video to load

[RANDLOVER]

Glad you came out of it OK Mark - thank god for that tree! Scary stuff.

Do you remember how the brakes felt under foot? Just wondering if perhaps you lost brake boost at some point which would have made it very hard to stop. I understand that the brakes are designed to maintain boost pressure in the event that the engine stops. Not sure how many pumps that gives you though.

My experience of D3 brakes without engine running is they are very good, even after several hours, the vacuum is still held, (not sure how many brake applications it allows, I only use one), as I have a steep driveway and normally leave the car out there in summer and then just roll it in later, they are heavy to operate, as is the steering, but I've never had a problem.

In theory going backwards the braking would be slightly less efficient, due to being biased towards the front, on the other hand (I'm sounding like an economist now) going uphill would've avoided the classic disaster of a loose object rolling under the brake pedal.

I said above "the vacuum is still held", but obviously it has no vacuum, I meant it still has good brake force so that shows the master/slave piston ratio/sizing is correct.

[Tombie]

They stall quite easily when they get out of shape and the traction control can't work out what the hell is going on. It's one of LR's crazy engine protection mechanisms.

Care to provide some information to back that comment up...

Because it’s rubbish....

Default when ‘overwhelmed’ is to back off TC not turn off or stall.

[ozscott]

As far as I can tell they only pulse the brakes and do not retard power and revs like Japanese 4wd's do. It's one of Land Rovers advantages in ETC over their Japanese rivals. Cheers

[Jimmy Salsa]

Care to provide some information to back that comment up...

Because it’s rubbish....

Default when ‘overwhelmed’ is to back off TC not turn off or stall.

What other information would you like other than the facts presented?

I'm not postulating or hypothesising about what happens with regards to the motor staling. I'm simply reporting to you my personal experience over many years of fairly rough offroading situations.

We have had this happen to us on many occasions. Most notably in more extreme offroading situations where traction control is struggling. The motor shuts down and stalls.

Admittedly we've probably tortured our vehicle more than most offroad and often pushed it past the limits that many others are happy to go to but we've certainly experienced the engine stalling many times.

I'm not sure what else you want to hear to convince you that it can and does happen on these vehicles.

I've attached a clip of it for you.

You can see that the traction control is chucking a hissy fit and isn't working properly. Engine stalls.


https://youtu.be/mZ961pZVyb0

[DiscoJeffster]

You ARE postulating as you have said the engine stalls as a protective measure which unless you have LR technical proof, is an assumption by you as to why it’s happening.

[Tombie]

That stalled because it was in TC lock up and came to an abrupt halt...

It’s also a RR not a D4... different system and software.

Good video though!

[scarry]

One thing i do know is mine has stalled,and it was on a steep rocky hill in rock crawl.

In rock crawl the D4 is pretty well locked up.

[ozscott]

What other information would you like other than the facts presented?

I'm not postulating or hypothesising about what happens with regards to the motor staling. I'm simply reporting to you my personal experience over many years of fairly rough offroading situations.

We have had this happen to us on many occasions. Most notably in more extreme offroading situations where traction control is struggling. The motor shuts down and stalls.

Admittedly we've probably tortured our vehicle more than most offroad and often pushed it past the limits that many others are happy to go to but we've certainly experienced the engine stalling many times.

I'm not sure what else you want to hear to convince you that it can and does happen on these vehicles.

I've attached a clip of it for you.

You can see that the traction control is chucking a hissy fit and isn't working properly. Engine stalls.


https://youtu.be/mZ961pZVyb0So do we know why they stall under these conditions? It's not the first i have see. Do that. Cheers

[scarry]

So do we know why they stall under these conditions? It's not the first i have see. Do that. Cheers

Cause its locked up,just like a manual,if the wheels had kept spinning,it wouldn't have stopped,i presume.

Difficult to tell throttle position when it came down,but it sounds like the driver backed it off,which means it has more chance of stalling.

Pity Gordon isn't here to answer your question with a better explanation,he is an expert on this type of stuff.

[ozscott]

Yep I wondered if locked but assumed that torque converter would have had sufficient slip. Cheers

Cheers

[Mike57]

Cause its locked up,just like a manual,if the wheels had kept spinning,it wouldn't have stopped,i presume.

Difficult to tell throttle position when it came down,but it sounds like the driver backed it off,which means it has more chance of stalling.

Pity Gordon isn't here to answer your question with a better explanation,he is an expert on this type of stuff.


I did ask Gordon for his opinion. This is what he said (below). Hope he does not mind me posting it up here (too late now I suppose). He only looked at the video and none of the discussion subsequent including Marks version of events. I also asked specific questions to which he was responding. I have a rotary dial selector unlike Marks earlier model.

"Most of the explanation in the video makes sense, but the stall shouldn't have happened in the first place. When the front wheel hit the rut and wouldn't pull the car out, I'd suspect that the driver panicked a bit and either flattened the accelerator into the floor, or backed off the pedal completely, both of which could produce a stall. In Rock Crawl, it's always gentle changes on the accelerator, otherwise the DSC will cut in and kill the power.

IF you stall a D4, flick the rotary into neutral and restart. If you're sliding backwards with all 4 wheels locked (which would be the case if he was on the brake pedal), then immediately engage drive and release the brake whilst gently accelerating.

Yes absolutely you should always have the hill decent on, and the DSC as well, when climbing steep, slow ascents."

[SimmAus]

It is good that there is some discussion around this.
I’m not claiming to be an expert, but at the same time I’m not a complete novice. For me a few things have stood out so far

1) get the line right !!! I was about 10 cms off by my reckoning.
2) HDC...use it on steep inclines also. It sits in the background and hopefully would’ve controlled my rollback better.(with engine on or off apparently)
3) the vehicle can stall on hills...park brake immediately. There has been some discussion already about the auto park brake (on the 8 speed gear box). My vehicle did not have this, putting the car into park started the roll back and a clicking could be heard as the gear mechanism had not locked fully.

I am still confused why I rolled back down the track in the first place. Brake boosting would’ve been lost due to the stall, but brake pressure was available and I was planted on the brakes. It did roll back, for whatever reason...HDC / park brake should’ve stopped this.

Hopefully, at least 1 other person learns something from this...and leave Mike (rocmic) and myself in the rollover club!

Cheers

[LRD414]

That stalled because it was in TC lock up and came to an abrupt halt...

One thing i do know is mine has stalled,and it was on a steep rocky hill in rock crawl.
I've stalled I think 3 or 4 times, always in Rock Crawl and always with an abrupt halt or backing-off throttle.
I suspect I have backed off too quickly and/or too much right foot. Two of them have been caught on video.


https://youtu.be/BLtNCHtttiM

First one; the rocky slope was very steep and previously had much less exposed rock step.
Tyre pressure too high and perhaps too aggressive. The delay in restart is waiting for the rotary dial to go into Park, which it did automatically.
The second one; it did bog down in sandy gravel thanks to relatively high tyre pressure and big holes already churned up. Probably should have been in Mud/Ruts.

Scott

[LRD414]

There has been some discussion already about the auto park brake (on the 8 speed gear box).
This is not a standard feature for the 8-speed. It does however automatically move to Park once stalled.

[Eevo]

Tombie, when you say "TC" do you meant traction control or transfer case? (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/members/16922.html)

[Disco4Dave]

Tombie, when you say "TC" do you meant traction control or transfer case? (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/members/16922.html)

Torque Converter maybe

[PerthDisco]

Gunning it up a sand dune you’ll never make the top of is a guaranteed stall condition also it seems.

[Eevo]

Torque Converter maybe

that make sense.

[Tombie]

Yep I wondered if locked but assumed that torque converter would have had sufficient slip. Cheers

Cheers

No slip, if the TorqueC is locked [emoji41]

[BobD]

Gunning it up a sand dune you’ll never make the top of is a guaranteed stall condition also it seems.

Definitely not!! I've never seen a D4 climb a sand dune with no wheel slip. We are talking about the wheels coming to a sudden stop due to high traction on rocks etc when the TC is locked in low range and the driver removes all power by lifting off the accelerator pedal and hitting the brakes. That is not what happens on a sand dune. I assume there is insufficient time for the TC to unlock in those situations before the engine stalls.

I have played on heaps of sand dunes in my D4 where we couldn't reach the top and never once had a stall in any conditions. Since the wheels are spinning when you lift off there is more time for the TC to unlock if it is locked and do what it is designed to do and let the engine run without stalling.

[PerthDisco]

Mines a D3 and I’ve noticed when you run out of momentum on the dune it often stalls (in Sand Mode) just as you give up.

[DiscoJeffster]

Odd. I’ve never once had mine stall on me. Maybe I just don’t try hard enoigh

[scarry]

Odd. I’ve never once had mine stall on me. Maybe I just don’t try hard enoigh

Mine never has either,but with DSC on,it misbehaves,but still doesn't stall...

[LRD414]

One thing i do know is mine has stalled,and it was on a steep rocky hill in rock crawl.

Mine never has either,but with DSC on,it misbehaves,but still doesn't stall...
I'm confused Paul. Do you mean never stalled on sand dune perhaps?

Scott

[BobD]

Mines a D3 and I’ve noticed when you run out of momentum on the dune it often stalls (in Sand Mode) just as you give up.
That must be a different problem, not related to the TC lockup. Sounds like a fuel issue of some sort I reckon, unless the D3 is naturally more prone to stalling than the D4. My D4 puts out a lot of black smoke in the situation you describe so obviously over fueling when it runs out of puff. Perhaps that's enough to stall it on some cars.

[scarry]

I'm confused Paul. Do you mean never stalled on sand dune perhaps?

Scott

Correct,never stalled on a sand dune.

It has lost forward momentum on a few occasions,but didn't stall.

[PerthDisco]

My D4 puts out a lot of black smoke in the situation you describe

That too!

[SimmAus]

Correct,never stalled on a sand dune.

It has lost forward momentum on a few occasions,but didn't stall.

My D4 stalled a few times on Big Red...it does/can happen

[trout1105]

I have never stalled my auto D2a and I have pushed it pretty hard on the big sand dunes we have here, Maybe it is a bit of a case of Over Engineering on the D4's that cause this to happen?

[Tombie]

I have never stalled my auto D2a and I have pushed it pretty hard on the big sand dunes we have here, Maybe it is a bit of a case of Over Engineering on the D4's that cause this to happen?

Your D2a can’t do converter lock up in all gears.

[trout1105]

Your D2a can’t do converter lock up in all gears.

That apparently isn't necessarily a Bad thing [bigwhistle]

[blackrangie]

Sounds like someone needs to release a software patch, or direct LandRover to this thread and get a recall. Seems serious enough

[Tombie]

Almost all stalling is driver error...

[Tombie]

Sounds like someone needs to release a software patch, or direct LandRover to this thread and get a recall. Seems serious enough

How would I patch my D1 or the TD5 Defender?

If you stop from high enough revs quick enough ANY vehicle can stall...

[blackrangie]

Almost all stalling is driver error...Not from what i can see in these vids, either rpm is too low in these scenerios and legit stalls or its a software enduced protection stall.

[blackrangie]

How would I patch my D1 or the TD5 Defender?

If you stop from high enough revs quick enough ANY vehicle can stall...I agree every vehicle can stall, but that is far from the point of this thread. Its D3's and D4's stalling when they really shouldn't

[BobD]

My D4 stalled a few times on Big Red...it does/can happen

Mine didn't. It just easily made it up the hardest sections many times, much to the amazement of the audience of Patrol and Cruiser owners who couldn't get near the top! A couple of times I got off line in the bumps at the bottom and it did stop while just coming over the top but it didn't stall. But then again I got off the throttle with some mechanical sympathy, not just a massive lift off under full power!

I found that the best thing was to do it in third gear low range, as I would have in my old Chev Patrol. I also tried second, which was OK but third was better and didn't require huge throttle settings. I think I also did it one time in fourth low to see how it would do it and it made it fine also.

[Tombie]

Not from what i can see in these vids, either rpm is too low in these scenerios and legit stalls or its a software enduced protection stall.

Read the posts - even the owner states the error.

High rpm, stuck, back off quick, stall...

That’s an engine going from full boost high rpm to vehicle stopped in under a second.
The TC is locked, the rpm drops below idle and it stalls.

On a surface where the wheels continue to slip a little the TC unlocks and it continues at idle.

Remember these things have excellent Traction control, so don’t spin up like open diffs.. the equivalent would be lockers on on an early vehicle.. no slip will stall.

[blackrangie]

Read the posts - even the owner states the error.

High rpm, stuck, back off quick, stall...

That’s an engine going from full boost high rpm to vehicle stopped in under a second.
The TC is locked, the rpm drops below idle and it stalls.

On a surface where the wheels continue to slip a little the TC unlocks and it continues at idle.

Remember these things have excellent Traction control, so don’t spin up like open diffs.. the equivalent would be lockers on on an early vehicle.. no slip will stall.I wouldnt classify the rpm in the vids as high,

A properly set up chev set at 550rpm wont usually stall under all the above scenerios even after 6000rpm and 35s come to a halt.

Ill bet this is a software stall due to certain scenerios being met.

I don't own a D4 so I'm leaving emotions out of it. I'm just saying how I see it from this thread and the multiple first person accounts of this happening and the scenarios that happens along with the videos.

I could be wrong but they do seem to be stalling too easily.

[Eevo]

i would consider an auto stalling under any conditions a failure and not expected or wanted behavior.

[1nando]

Glad to hear your ok Mark and i wish you the best of luck with your insurer.

As for the d4 rolling; i drive a modern hd vehicle claimed to be built for offroad use. The problem with my very modern HD vehicle is that all the technologys in the world which are supposed to be safer and make it easier to drive also can lead to a accident like yours. This is where the defender and other built for purpose HD offroad vehicles are better for tough off road conditions. A vehicle with a real handbrake and a foot full of brake pedal would have allowed you to restart and keep going. Technology has let you down in this instance!

Some on here and maybe yourself will read this comment and get p$$d off, however your vehcile wouldnt of rolled with a proper handbrake and a foot full of brake pedal. You would have been able to restart the engine and keep going. A real hd offroad vehcile shouldnt need HDC to climb a hill!

My Patrol has a stupid foot handbrake and although it has hill start assist and HDC its technology id rather not have. Again im sure many wont agree but i think a simpler vehcile would have been much safer in this situation.

Now i know you'll say that if you'd been in a defender and rolled that would be worse and although i agree i guarantee i would have never rolled a defender in that situation! Id put my mortgage on it.

As for the OP; my thoughts are that the benefits of technology aren't always as reliable or safe as old school mechanical technology. You shouldnt need a manual on how to electronically prepare your car to go up a hill and then have a back up by having HDC on in case of stalling.

Anyway best of luck going forward mate.

[Tombie]

It has a real handbrake... he didn’t use it..

Good luck grabbing a **** load of handbrake on a Defender as it slips out from under you offroad.. that just isn’t going to happen.

What DID happen is he put it in P intending to use the transmission pawl (something I’ve warned about lots of times) to hold the vehicle whilst restarting.
That’s a huge no!
And reports of clicking as the pawl fails and the vehicle toboggans backwards by which time it has inertia and mass.

As I mentioned several posts ago, 2 of us went to a great hill down behind the pub at Sellicks... this hill is easily max gradient for climbing.
Both vehicles slid backwards, handbrakes on, foot brakes on... necessitating some sphincter clenching driving to save the vehicles...

Everyone has seen the Pajero, LC200 and Patrol videos I assume? Where they just get ever so slightly offline and next thing are barrel rolling into the scrub?

[1nando]

It has a real handbrake... he didn’t use it..

Good luck grabbing a **** load of handbrake on a Defender as it slips out from under you offroad.. that just isn’t going to happen.

What DID happen is he put it in P intending to use the transmission pawl (something I’ve warned about lots of times) to hold the vehicle whilst restarting.
That’s a huge no!
And reports of clicking as the pawl fails and the vehicle toboggans backwards by which time it has inertia and mass.

As I mentioned several posts ago, 2 of us went to a great hill down behind the pub at Sellicks... this hill is easily max gradient for climbing.
Both vehicles slid backwards, handbrakes on, foot brakes on... necessitating some sphincter clenching driving to save the vehicles...

Everyone has seen the Pajero, LC200 and Patrol videos I assume? Where they just get ever so slightly offline and next thing are barrel rolling into the scrub?Regardless Tombie i think you'd agree that it shouldnt be that complicated. Should be park brake, foot full of brake pedal and start vehicle.

Ps i used my handbrake many times in the 110 offroad on very steep rutted terrain and it worked perfectly every time. In saying that my vehicle was meticulously maintained and the handbrake always had the right tension.

[Tombie]

I wouldnt classify the rpm in the vids as high,

A properly set up chev set at 550rpm wont usually stall under all the above scenerios even after 6000rpm and 35s come to a halt.

Ill bet this is a software stall due to certain scenerios being met.

I don't own a D4 so I'm leaving emotions out of it. I'm just saying how I see it from this thread and the multiple first person accounts of this happening and the scenarios that happens along with the videos.

I could be wrong but they do seem to be stalling too easily.

What gives then?

When 4x 35” of tyre and rim comes down from 6,000rpm of engine to 0 rotational speed what gives?

A slippery unlocked Torque converter will save it and keep it idling, but a locked Tc or a manual certainly won’t. And if the engine doesn’t give, something else will...

I don’t need to get emotional - just logical.
I have older points of reference and a really nice vehicle test area 2km away..
So I’ve taken the D4 there and tested the things in this discussion.. I can take the Defender as well [emoji6] it was in the old Quarry Sunday playing!

Before anyone on here can come to a conclusion we would need:
- Software versions for each module on each vehicle.
- telemetry from each vehicle
- tyre sizes

Then we can start building a scenario..

[Tombie]

Here’s a vid: old school RR stalls....
Range Rover Rollover - YouTube (https://youtu.be/R02eDCWG_cE)

[blackrangie]

It has a real handbrake... he didn’t use it..

Good luck grabbing a **** load of handbrake on a Defender as it slips out from under you offroad.. that just isn’t going to happen.

What DID happen is he put it in P intending to use the transmission pawl (something I’ve warned about lots of times) to hold the vehicle whilst restarting.
That’s a huge no!
And reports of clicking as the pawl fails and the vehicle toboggans backwards by which time it has inertia and mass.

As I mentioned several posts ago, 2 of us went to a great hill down behind the pub at Sellicks... this hill is easily max gradient for climbing.
Both vehicles slid backwards, handbrakes on, foot brakes on... necessitating some sphincter clenching driving to save the vehicles...

Everyone has seen the Pajero, LC200 and Patrol videos I assume? Where they just get ever so slightly offline and next thing are barrel rolling into the scrub?Lets not let this get out of hand, nobody is saying the D4s or D3s or watever are bad, they just seem to stall more than usual on steep challenging terrain..question is why?

[blackrangie]

What gives then?

When 4x 35” of tyre and rim comes down from 6,000rpm of engine to 0 rotational speed what gives?

A slippery unlocked Torque converter will save it and keep it idling, but a locked Tc or a manual certainly won’t. And if the engine doesn’t give, something else will...

I don’t need to get emotional - just logical.
I have older points of reference and a really nice vehicle test area 2km away..
So I’ve taken the D4 there and tested the things in this discussion.. I can take the Defender as well [emoji6] it was in the old Quarry Sunday playing!

Before anyone on here can come to a conclusion we would need:
- Software versions for each module on each vehicle.
- telemetry from each vehicle
- tyre sizes

Then we can start building a scenario..Maybe just getting a TC unlock switch will fix

[Tombie]

Here’s a vid: old school RR stalls....
Range Rover Rollover - YouTube (https://youtu.be/R02eDCWG_cE)

[Tombie]

Just driving to suit and recover from a stall will fix...

I’d rather it locked than cooking the oil..

[blackrangie]

Here’s a vid: old school RR stalls....
Range Rover Rollover - YouTube (https://youtu.be/R02eDCWG_cE)Your point posting that video?
It looses fuel and cant restart..this is a completely different scenerio..again this guy should have stopped and secured and winched.

[blackrangie]

Just driving to suit and recover from a stall will fix...

I’d rather it locked than cooking the oil..It will not fix unnecessary stalling innthe firstplace

[Tombie]

Your point posting that video?

As it gets stuck - it stalls...

Once restarted the slightest slip backwards starts it on its roll.

Easy to have happen..

[trout1105]

Stalling ANY 4WD in that situation wouldn't have been "Pretty" regardless of make or model.
As Tombie said Stuff Happens"

[LRD414]

Tombie, what are your thoughts on what little you can see in my video that I should have done, especially the first rocky bit. I get the too much throttle / abrupt stop / rock crawl / lock-up is the cause. But it's difficult to judge how much to back off I sometimes find.

[Tombie]

Tombie, what are your thoughts on what little you can see in my video that I should have done, especially the first rocky bit. I get the too much throttle / abrupt stop / rock crawl / lock-up is the cause. But it's difficult to judge how much to back off I sometimes find.

Compared to seat of the pants which is impossible to sometimes judge (I’ve seen old video of me offroad and it doesn’t look anything like it felt).

Hindsight is a big thing, easy to critique from a screen.

In the case you were driving I likely wouldn’t have been in Rock Crawl. It’s a little too aggressive for the surface.

I’ll watch it a few more times... [emoji6]

[Tombie]

Ok... lots of back and forth on the video.

I’d be in Mud and Ruts personally, I find it plays nicer when on a scrambling surface (rock crawl is more rock, where you can hook up)..

Looks like you started feeling it slow progress and gave it a bit of Right Welly just before the progress stopped.

Likely in this instance it was at full boost, Tc Locked up, a couple of wheels under full grip and the others have braked hard just as you buttoned off.
The Tc has been unable to unlock in time, idle speed has dropped below threshold and its stalled.


Can you (if it’s close by) try that hill again in Mud and Ruts?

[LRD414]

I’d be in Mud and Ruts personally, I find it plays nicer when on a scrambling surface (rock crawl is more rock, where you can hook up)..
Looks like you started feeling it slow progress and gave it a bit of Right Welly just before the progress stopped.
Likely in this instance it was at full boost, Tc Locked up, a couple of wheels under full grip and the others have braked hard just as you buttoned off.
The Tc has been unable to unlock in time, idle speed has dropped below threshold and its stalled.
Can you (if it’s close by) try that hill again in Mud and Ruts?
Thinking back as best I can and as you say it all happens fast with poor recall ....
But everything you've said here lines up and makes sense.
I do generally use Mud/Ruts majority of the time but thought Rock Crawl for this rock to reduce wheel spin.
However, once on the slope, it felt looser in parts. And steeper than I remembered from one year prior (when I did get up there in Mud/Ruts I think).
I think over reaction with right foot almost coincided with button off.

Cheers,
Scott

PS .... worth noting the stall is a rare situation and perhaps seems like a more common scenario to the non-D3/D4 reader due to it being discussed at length in this thread.
And yes, I can get back there it's about 2 hours away so a good place for a day trip. Just for scientific research of course :)

[Nicky]

Thinking back as best I can and as you say it all happens fast with poor recall ....
But everything you've said here lines up and makes sense.
I do generally use Mud/Ruts majority of the time but thought Rock Crawl for this rock to reduce wheel spin.
However, once on the slope, it felt looser in parts. And steeper than I remembered from one year prior (when I did get up there in Mud/Ruts I think).
I think over reaction with right foot almost coincided with button off.

Cheers,
Scott

PS .... worth noting the stall is a rare situation and perhaps seems like a more common scenario to the non-D3/D4 reader due to it being discussed at length in this thread.
And yes, I can get back there it's about 2 hours away so a good place for a day trip. Just for scientific research of course :)

We are all waiting for the "test" results[bigsmile]

[NoosaMick]

Watching the LRD414 video a few times. I don’t see how this is really a 'stall' in the true mechanical sense, it looks and sounds more like a software engine switch off (as mentioned by others).

I would not expect the TC to be locked at this low speed and even if it was, surely it can unlock quickly to prevent stalling the engine. I read these ZF gearboxes can select gears (lock/unlock the clutches) in a fraction of a second, so the TC locking clutch could probably release faster than stopping the engine.

My D4 is a new to me (although my forth LR) so apologies for any dumb questions. But, is there any way to use a diagnostic tool to view the status of the TC while driving? It would be interesting to know what’s happening at different speeds and terrain settings.

Also, why keep the DSC on when off-road? My understanding is the DSC helps control the vehicle in under-steer or over-steer situations at highway speeds (by applying selective braking and throttle inputs). How would this help on a steep rutted slope? There’s a lot going on with traction control anyway so having another system ‘competing’ sounds like a recipe for disaster.

[andrew53]

Any thoughts on this YouTube video?

Alloffroad #137 - 4x4 Victorian High Country Discovery 4 Rollover

I don’t fully understand how the engine would stall with an auto box and torque converter.


I think the explanation at the end of the video sums it up and for some reason the park brake did not lock on and with what seems the left rear wheel in a hole the end result is what we see. I think as said turning off some features to go up a hill disabled the very thing that could have stopped the outcome and when it all happened the car could not respond the way it is programmed. Just my opinion.

[Tombie]

Watching the LRD414 video a few times. I don’t see how this is really a 'stall' in the true mechanical sense, it looks and sounds more like a software engine switch off (as mentioned by others).

I would not expect the TC to be locked at this low speed and even if it was, surely it can unlock quickly to prevent stalling the engine. I read these ZF gearboxes can select gears (lock/unlock the clutches) in a fraction of a second, so the TC locking clutch could probably release faster than stopping the engine.

My D4 is a new to me (although my forth LR) so apologies for any dumb questions. But, is there any way to use a diagnostic tool to view the status of the TC while driving? It would be interesting to know what’s happening at different speeds and terrain settings.

Also, why keep the DSC on when off-road? My understanding is the DSC helps control the vehicle in under-steer or over-steer situations at highway speeds (by applying selective braking and throttle inputs). How would this help on a steep rutted slope? There’s a lot going on with traction control anyway so having another system ‘competing’ sounds like a recipe for disaster.

Good question...

Just as a diff lock can click on and out extremely quickly, it can not do it under load. Hence the instruction to back off a fraction just as you engage a diff locker (same can be done with the CDL).

In rock crawl the driveline is even more locked than normal, so there is a lot more tension in the driveline.

[Redback]

Indeed. The D2 was an interesting compromise, being monocoque over ladder, as were most LR cars from D2, P38A, right through to the last gen RRS. In fact, I believe the D1 gets a guernsey as well, but it wasn't nearly as safe. Just like RRCs.

Don't get me wrong, safety is good, especially for those who have kids. LR's work needs to be respected. The structural integrity of Mark's D4 saved his life. I used to tool around, on tracks like that, in a G60 Patrol ragtop. Everywhere at full throttle because that is the only way the car would get up. A crash like Mark had was easily on the cards, but the difference is, I wouldn't have survived it, unless I was thrown.

I'm pretty sure it's the D4 that's MONO/LADDER not the D2??

[ozscott]

I thought so too Redback although D2 was a bit of a hybrid with all the bracing and big anti intrusion beams in doors etc. Much closer to both than d1 was and a lot stronger than d1. In D1 and D2 you could remove both bodies cpmplete but D2 body had a lot of structure built in. Cheers

[andeck]

What a sad sad sight to see!! Glad everyone in the trip was ok and no hassles with the insurance company.

If there was a ticking sound that means the gearbox was rotating (parking pawl would have sheered immediately), which means one or many wheels were also turning.

Bit worrying as even new drivers when car moves unintentionally will stamp on the brakes, so I can’t see any difference in this circumstance. So logically either interference from electronics, or 4 locked wheels not stopping it.

I can see that stalling will occur with tc locked up, but as others have said, it should be able to unlock in milliseconds.

If loaded does that prohibit unlocking? It is a clutch plate isn’t it, so load shouldn’t be a factor. Different to an air locker that slides gears together and loading will definitely make it harder to unlock.

[BigJon]

My TDV8 Vogue stalled last weekend. Attempting a short steep hill (wife driving). Loss of traction (traction control doing its thing) followed by snapping the throttle closed. Simple to restart in neutral.

[86mud]

Wow, not good. Was the D4 recovered? if so, would have been an interesting exercise.

Sorry if this has already been discussed.

[SimmAus]

Wow, not good. Was the D4 recovered? if so, would have been an interesting exercise.

Sorry if this has already been discussed.

Yep, was recovered and insurance paid out.
Took the best part of a day, 3 blokes and 1 truck apparently.
I didn’t get any pictures (unfortunately).