Defender TD5 ABS and TC help

[Scotty85]

Hi,

I am hoping that someone on here can help me with this fault and know of a fix.

I own a 1999 TD5 Defender. The other night when leaving work I reversed out of the driveway leaving work when I saw the dredded ABS and TC lights come on and stay on. I drove home a little sad and had hoped it might go away before I arrived home. I tested the brakes on the way and all seed fine. I have researched as best I can on this site and the internet. Sadly I cannot seem to find much info about Defenders with this issue. I have read lots about the Disco's having this issue and see there is a fix to the Wabco modulator.

As far as I can tell this fix is better suited for the Disco's and not the Defender. I pulled out all the wheel sensors and gave them a clean. I also checked the earth wires under the drivers seat box (as was noted on online). The lights have not gone out. I believe that the ABS and TC lights will not go away when the issue is fixed and that they will only go away when cleared by a fault reader. I do not own a fault reader :(

I took the Defender into a LR specialist near to where I live. I have had my Defender repaired by them before and they do great work. So they checked the fault and they told me that the fault showing is the ABS Shuttle Valve. They quoted my $6200 for a new unit or $1800 to repair the unit :( :( :(

That is a ton of money I do not have! I just bought 5 new bloody tyres a couple weeks ago that I had been saving up for for ages.

The LR guys told me that I can still drive on roads with the 2 lights showing but not to venture onto sand, dirt ect.

My questions are (and I hope there is some help out there),

Is there a known fix for this for the Defender apart from buying new?

Has anyone on here with a TD5 found another way to fix this?

What damage, if any, can I do by leaving this fault on?

Can I still go off road? (sand, dirt or hills - I don't do any rock climbing or mud holes).

And, if so what is the downside?

Can I just replace the $40 shuttle valve myself?

And,

Is there anyone on the Sunshine Coast, QLD who can help me if this bloody thing can be fixed??? I don't really want to pay $1800 or $6200!!

I should note I have used the search button on here. Not much luck. I did find this quote from Daz about the issue;


I dont actually know what AULRO have called the particular fix or mod, my point was over 30 years or so of working on Land Rovers I've only had 2 Defender TD5 models come to me with the oh so common Disco 2 fault.

I believe I'm always very careful when working on customers vehicles regardless of the repair.

AND completely crazy enough..... today.... Defender TD5 with a electrical shuttle switch fault.....
I've not fixed it, merely cleared the fault code and stuck some black tape over the abs light [tonguewink][tonguewink][tonguewink][tonguewink]

Regards
Daz


Thanks for any help :)

Scotty

136319136320136321

[djam1]

First thing dont panic or take too much notice of the $6200 threats.
If you have a Nanocom check the codes on the ABS ECU if you dont have one borrow one.
If it says it has a shuttle valve issue it can be as simple as putting in a new set of shuttle valves.
While this is a pig of a job on a Defender (you dont have to remove the mudguard it can be removed out the top) it can be done by yourself if you are handy with a spanner.
If the Nanocom says you have sensor issues note which one and do the following
Take a large screwdriver place it on the head of the sensors and with the heel of your hand knock the sensors in.
Do this on all 4 wheels on the front they are on the top of the swivel pin housings.
Clear the errors with the Nanocom then go for a drive once you reach 7 kmh the lights should go out.
If not you may need to replace the sensors the cheapest way in my experience is to buy Britpart (trust me they work) ones from the UK they usually cost 75 pounds each.
If the modulator is faulty the cheapest way I have found to fix them is to get Ian at Jobson electronics in Melbourne to look at it
European Car Specialist Melbourne, Melbourne CDB, Carlton, Fitzroy | Jobson Electronics (http://www.jobsonelectronics.com/)
I pulled mine out and sent it to him and he recoed it mine was completely stuffed and from memory it was less than $1000

Knock the sensors in first and go for a drive even if you dont have a Nanocom
All is not lost and the sky is not falling

The option B advocates will be along shortly, this is not the be all and end all with the modulators there is a lot to go wrong but if there is a dry solder issue it will solve the problem.
With a Defender if you do option B make sure you dont short the wires out on the mount underneath modulator as it will put the brakes on when you are moving, I found out on bush tracks the hard way.

It will be OK find a good independent

[djam1]

Sorry for my disjointed post didn’t read your post properly as I was doing 2 things at the same time

[Scotty85]

Thanks Djam1. The first thing I did was tap all the senors in gently. Actually the rear left sensor pushed in a bit! But sadly it didn't fix the issue. I'm not sure if the warning lights go out automatically when the error is fixed or if they need to be manually cleared on my early model TD5.


I will check out Ian at Jobson in Melb. If this is a fix that I can do myself that is great as money is tight. I feel, as like so many others do, as soon as you fix one thing another thing breaks.... But $1000 is a whole better than $6200 [thumbsupbig]

[djam1]

Believe it or not it does eventually cease
But about 4 years later it starts again but not quite as aggressively as before

[Scotty85]

Thanks to djam1 for your help so far. Mate do you own a TD5 Defender? I see there are a few places on the web that sell ABS Modulator repair/replacements. I see this is mostly pointed at the Disco 2's but I am wondering if these will also fit Defenders too? I do not see why it shouldn't. If this will work, I am liking the look of this one. It is from the USA but they also provide detailed instructions and photo guide. Something that will no doubt come in handy! ABS shuttle valve code solution; brake fluid leaks (http://www.jewellamberoil.com/sales/index.php'main_page=product_info&cPath=65_67&products_id=190) They do note that this kit is for the NAS versions. Would there be a difference between the NAS ABS Module's and the rest of the World's ABS ones? I would not have thought so.

If I buy the repair kit and change it all myself, would a bleed of the whole system really be needed? Isn't it just the shuttle valves that are changed where they don't actually physically touch any fluid?

136374


I asked a few other questions up above in my original post. Can anyone answer them for me?

My questions are (and I hope there is some help out there),

Is there a known fix for this for the Defender apart from buying new?

Has anyone on here with a TD5 found another way to fix this?

What damage, if any, can I do by leaving this fault on?

Can I still go off road? (sand, dirt or hills - I don't do any rock climbing or mud holes).

And, if so what is the downside?

I am looking at all options first before I decide which way to go. I would rather try and fix and repair the Landy myself. I have no experience with ABS or brakes. I am wanting to give it a go but at the same time this is a delicate part that if I stuff up, it can have consequences later on.

Anyone on AULRO here on the Sunshine Coast and may have a Nanocom handy? I don't have the $500 plus at the moment to buy one :(

Cheers

[Bundalene]

Hi, just a little more info, the lights will stay on until they are reset by a diagnostic tool such as Nanocom, even if you have cleared the fault

Also give TR Spares in Adelaide a call, they may carry a used Defender Shuttle Valve or refurbished unit. Just another option but may be too $$$$

Also I am pretty sure spare parts, valve block etc for a D2 will not suit the Defender shuttle valve which is physically smaller.

Also there used to be a diagnostics tool just to reset the LR ABS. When Paul and Andy were running Hard Range they sold these. I haven't seen them for a while, I've got one here somewhere and these may still be out there. They were about $40 I think.


Erich

[djam1]

I do own a TD5 Defender and have been through all this in the past.
I would trust Erich's advice as he knows what he is talking about but to be honest I would be 99% sure that my Defender has D2 Shuttle valves in it.
I know at one point we put a D2 coil pack (front plate) on mine to test it.
Ask Ian at Jobsons he will know if they fit.
I was always afraid of the bleeding after this process and you will need to bleed it.
When you take the unit out you have to take all the pipes off and air will enter.
I always found the bleeding to be relatively simple but I was using both a Nanocom and a Hawkeye without one of these it will likely be more difficult.
If you are not confident with brakes dont take any chances if you get it wrong it will be trouble for you.
From memory to get the modulator out you need to undo the brake pedal box to give you some room, then take the pipes and cable off before undoing the front mount bolt. Hold your tongue right and with a little use of the all Australian adjective you should be able to twist it out after bending the pipes.
It really is a pig of a job

This should fix all problems https://www.allfourx4.com.au/ABS-Modulator-Shuttle-Valve-Repair-Kit-for-all-Land-
Rover-Discovery-2-Wabco-OEM-SWO500040

(https://www.allfourx4.com.au/ABS-Modulator-Shuttle-Valve-Repair-Kit-for-all-Land-Rover-Discovery-2-Wabco-OEM-SWO500040)This will fix the Shuttle Valves http://www.allfourx4.com.au/epages/shop.sf/en_AU/?ObjectID=17460&ViewAction=FacetedSearchProducts&SearchString=SWO500030&SearchButton=

I have never replaced the little O rings but can see the point that they make on the US site from memory the manual says its acceptable to find some fluid near the shuttle valves just not too much.
I wouldnt go the whole hog with the valve body send it to Jobsons pretty sure it will be cheaper.

I have no connection to Jobsons just a satisfied customer
I have used All 4X4 for years and know the owners so am associated in a sense


Thanks to djam1 for your help so far. Mate do you own a TD5 Defender? I see there are a few places on the web that sell ABS Modulator repair/replacements. I see this is mostly pointed at the Disco 2's but I am wondering if these will also fit Defenders too? I do not see why it shouldn't. If this will work, I am liking the look of this one. It is from the USA but they also provide detailed instructions and photo guide. Something that will no doubt come in handy! ABS shuttle valve code solution; brake fluid leaks (http://www.jewellamberoil.com/sales/index.php'main_page=product_info&cPath=65_67&products_id=190) They do note that this kit is for the NAS versions. Would there be a difference between the NAS ABS Module's and the rest of the World's ABS ones? I would not have thought so.

If I buy the repair kit and change it all myself, would a bleed of the whole system really be needed? Isn't it just the shuttle valves that are changed where they don't actually physically touch any fluid?

136374



I am looking at all options first before I decide which way to go. I would rather try and fix and repair the Landy myself. I have no experience with ABS or brakes. I am wanting to give it a go but at the same time this is a delicate part that if I stuff up, it can have consequences later on.

Anyone on AULRO here on the Sunshine Coast and may have a Nanocom handy? I don't have the $500 plus at the moment to buy one :(

Cheers

[jbe]

Hi,

I am hoping that someone on here can help me with this fault and know of a fix.

I own a 1999 TD5 Defender. The other night when leaving work I reversed out of the driveway leaving work when I saw the dredded ABS and TC lights come on and stay on. I drove home a little sad and had hoped it might go away before I arrived home. I tested the brakes on the way and all seed fine. I have researched as best I can on this site and the internet. Sadly I cannot seem to find much info about Defenders with this issue. I have read lots about the Disco's having this issue and see there is a fix to the Wabco modulator.

As far as I can tell this fix is better suited for the Disco's and not the Defender. I pulled out all the wheel sensors and gave them a clean. I also checked the earth wires under the drivers seat box (as was noted on online). The lights have not gone out. I believe that the ABS and TC lights will not go away when the issue is fixed and that they will only go away when cleared by a fault reader. I do not own a fault reader :(

I took the Defender into a LR specialist near to where I live. I have had my Defender repaired by them before and they do great work. So they checked the fault and they told me that the fault showing is the ABS Shuttle Valve. They quoted my $6200 for a new unit or $1800 to repair the unit :( :( :(

That is a ton of money I do not have! I just bought 5 new bloody tyres a couple weeks ago that I had been saving up for for ages.

The LR guys told me that I can still drive on roads with the 2 lights showing but not to venture onto sand, dirt ect.

My questions are (and I hope there is some help out there),

Is there a known fix for this for the Defender apart from buying new?

Has anyone on here with a TD5 found another way to fix this?

What damage, if any, can I do by leaving this fault on?

Can I still go off road? (sand, dirt or hills - I don't do any rock climbing or mud holes).

And, if so what is the downside?

Can I just replace the $40 shuttle valve myself?

And,

Is there anyone on the Sunshine Coast, QLD who can help me if this bloody thing can be fixed??? I don't really want to pay $1800 or $6200!!

I should note I have used the search button on here. Not much luck. I did find this quote from Daz about the issue;



Thanks for any help :)

Scotty

136319136320136321

Been there, mate.
Firstly, I think you will need a diagnostic tool like Nanocom or Hawkeye to properly diagnose the issue. If you start randomly replacing bits, it can become very expensive very quickly.
To be honest, the Wabco ABS/TC system in the Defenders is a fairly crappy design.
It could be one of the ABS sensors which should log a fault in the ECU.
It could also be the shuttle valve or the ABS pump in the modulator. A new modulator is about $3500 for the Defender afaik. The Disco modulator is differently valved from the Defender module.

I had a dead pump and my workshop managed to seperate the valve body and use a reconditioned pump from a Disco unit; much cheaper and still works one and a half years later.

My learning curve ion this subject was very steep & expensive :-).

[Scotty85]

Hi, just a little more info, the lights will stay on until they are reset by a diagnostic tool such as Nanocom, even if you have cleared the fault

Also give TR Spares in Adelaide a call, they may carry a used Defender Shuttle Valve or refurbished unit. Just another option but may be too $$$$

Also I am pretty sure spare parts, valve block etc for a D2 will not suit the Defender shuttle valve which is physically smaller.

Also there used to be a diagnostics tool just to reset the LR ABS. When Paul and Andy were running Hard Range they sold these. I haven't seen them for a while, I've got one here somewhere and these may still be out there. They were about $40 I think.


Erich

Thanks Erich. I have tried looking for the diagnostics tool but with no luck. I did find that the Hard Range shop was sold on but now closed down.

[Scotty85]

I do own a TD5 Defender and have been through all this in the past.
I would trust Erich's advice as he knows what he is talking about but to be honest I would be 99% sure that my Defender has D2 Shuttle valves in it.
I know at one point we put a D2 coil pack (front plate) on mine to test it.
Ask Ian at Jobsons he will know if they fit.
I was always afraid of the bleeding after this process and you will need to bleed it.
When you take the unit out you have to take all the pipes off and air will enter.
I always found the bleeding to be relatively simple but I was using both a Nanocom and a Hawkeye without one of these it will likely be more difficult.
If you are not confident with brakes dont take any chances if you get it wrong it will be trouble for you.
From memory to get the modulator out you need to undo the brake pedal box to give you some room, then take the pipes and cable off before undoing the front mount bolt. Hold your tongue right and with a little use of the all Australian adjective you should be able to twist it out after bending the pipes.
It really is a pig of a job

This should fix all problems https://www.allfourx4.com.au/ABS-Modulator-Shuttle-Valve-Repair-Kit-for-all-Land-
Rover-Discovery-2-Wabco-OEM-SWO500040

(https://www.allfourx4.com.au/ABS-Modulator-Shuttle-Valve-Repair-Kit-for-all-Land-Rover-Discovery-2-Wabco-OEM-SWO500040)This will fix the Shuttle Valves http://www.allfourx4.com.au/epages/shop.sf/en_AU/?ObjectID=17460&ViewAction=FacetedSearchProducts&SearchString=SWO500030&SearchButton=

I have never replaced the little O rings but can see the point that they make on the US site from memory the manual says its acceptable to find some fluid near the shuttle valves just not too much.
I wouldnt go the whole hog with the valve body send it to Jobsons pretty sure it will be cheaper.

I have no connection to Jobsons just a satisfied customer
I have used All 4X4 for years and know the owners so am associated in a sense

Do you reckon I could just remove the Shuttle Valve with all the pipes and modulator still in place? If this was possible then would I still need to bleed the brakes? I do a brake fluid change. It is due but without a scan tool then that makes it hard.

I have bought from allfourx4 before. They are good as is Roverlord. No shortage of places or shops to buy our stuff!

I am getting onto Jobson about this thoughts and his fix [thumbsupbig] but based on what the LR specialist told me (didn't give me the fault code) it is just the Shuttle Valve so hopefully no need for the "whole hog fix" lol.

[Scotty85]

Been there, mate.
Firstly, I think you will need a diagnostic tool like Nanocom or Hawkeye to properly diagnose the issue. If you start randomly replacing bits, it can become very expensive very quickly.
To be honest, the Wabco ABS/TC system in the Defenders is a fairly crappy design.
It could be one of the ABS sensors which should log a fault in the ECU.
It could also be the shuttle valve or the ABS pump in the modulator. A new modulator is about $3500 for the Defender afaik. The Disco modulator is differently valved from the Defender module.

I had a dead pump and my workshop managed to seperate the valve body and use a reconditioned pump from a Disco unit; much cheaper and still works one and a half years later.

My learning curve ion this subject was very steep & expensive :-).

Land Rover ownership is very steep and expensive! Lol. I have wanted to buy a Nanocom for ages but just never have the money as I am always having to fix other things first. This is the first time I have needed to read a fault or ECU in 4-5 years of ownership[biggrin]

[djam1]

Do you reckon I could just remove the Shuttle Valve with all the pipes and modulator still in place? If this was possible then would I still need to bleed the brakes? I do a brake fluid change. It is due but without a scan tool then that makes it hard.

I have bought from allfourx4 before. They are good as is Roverlord. No shortage of places or shops to buy our stuff!

I am getting onto Jobson about this thoughts and his fix [thumbsupbig] but based on what the LR specialist told me (didn't give me the fault code) it is just the Shuttle Valve so hopefully no need for the "whole hog fix" lol.

The only way I can see of getting the shuttle valves out in a Defender without undoing the pipes would be to either remove the mudguard or attack the body with an angle grinder.
If you did manage to do it you might still need to bleed it not sure.

[Simeon]

Just bleed the brakes. Get a pressure bleeder that either is pressurised by an air line or uses a hand pump. This will always do the best job possible for a home / shade tree mechanic.

[Lemo]

Members with Diagnostic Equipment map (updated 1/2015)

Members with Diagnostic Equipment map (updated 1/2015) (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/electronic-diagnostic-systems/213489-members-diagnostic-equipment-map-updated-1-2015-a.html)

[justinc]

The discovery complete modulators fit and are the same. Perform option b and the fault is gone forever.

The disco modulators are very cheap second hand compared to a defender one...

Jc

[jbe]

The discovery complete modulators fit and are the same. Perform option b and the fault is gone forever.

The disco modulators are very cheap second hand compared to a defender one...

Jc

When I looked into it, the ports were labelled differently between Disco and Defender modulator units on the images I looked up. Are you saying that the brake lines into the ABS modulator block, i.e. FL RR FR RL between the disco and Defender units?

[justinc]

Weve done quite a few now... no issues there.
Jc

[Scotty85]

Weve done quite a few now... no issues there.
Jc

Really? Is there an actual difference between the Defender and Disco units besides the location of the brake line ports? I know the Disco has the 3rd "Hill Assist Function". I would have thought the ABS brakes would not apply the brake to the correct wheel if the port was routed to the wrong port? I wonder why Land Rover would make the Modulator's different between the 2 types of vehicles if they both worked exactly same? To make extra $$?

[Scotty85]

Just bleed the brakes. Get a pressure bleeder that either is pressurised by an air line or uses a hand pump. This will always do the best job possible for a home / shade tree mechanic.

I am going to have to try this I think, unless I can convince the other half about getting a Nanocom.... [thumbsupbig]

[Scotty85]

The only way I can see of getting the shuttle valves out in a Defender without undoing the pipes would be to either remove the mudguard or attack the body with an angle grinder.
If you did manage to do it you might still need to bleed it not sure.

I have a mate at work who owns a 200tdi defender. He has offered to lend me a hand and help pull the wings and parts off and have a look and try to replace the shuttle valve first. Will be a few weeks away until we can attempt it.

[jbe]

Really? Is there an actual difference between the Defender and Disco units besides the location of the brake line ports? I know the Disco has the 3rd "Hill Assist Function". I would have thought the ABS brakes would not apply the brake to the correct wheel if the port was routed to the wrong port? I wonder why Land Rover would make the Modulator's different between the 2 types of vehicles if they both worked exactly same? To make extra $$?

That was my concern as well.

[Nemo]

Hey Scotty, I've had the same issue for a while. The lights come on or stay off without ant type of pattern. Hope it works out well for you and im keeping a keen eye on the results. Good luck!