TD5 timing issues

[Robthebob]

Hi,
After a cylinder head gasket replacement, the truck does not fire up. Many fuel purge cycles and fuel sprinkling out of the hoses; glow plugs getting power when key is turned, all fuses that matter in order.
While working on the car I did not have the timing tools available right away, they came in after a couple of weeks. things may have moved even the sprocket may have jumped a chain link.
Whould that be a possibility?
Which are the symptoms of a slight out of timing chain?
Do I HAVE TO get to the lower sprocket to time the chain back?

Thank you!

p.s.
The flywheel timing tool could never be screwed in because the hole is off center (see photo done with lens perfectly centered to hole)... Is that something recurrent, to find useless timing holes?



136503

[strangy]

Hi,
After a cylinder head gasket replacement, the truck does not fire up. Many fuel purge cycles and fuel sprinkling out of the hoses; glow plugs getting power when key is turned, all fuses that matter in order.
While working on the car I did not have the timing tools available right away, they came in after a couple of weeks. things may have moved even the sprocket may have jumped a chain link.
Whould that be a possibility?
Which are the symptoms of a slight out of timing chain?
Do I HAVE TO get to the lower sprocket to time the chain back?

Thank you!

p.s.
The flywheel timing tool could never be screwed in because the hole is off center (see photo done with lens perfectly centered to hole)... Is that something recurrent, to find useless timing holes?



136503

I cant see the photo however, it is typically a "slot" in the flywheel and the timing tool should have no problem fitting in correctly. Pic from ebay showing slot.
Are you using the correct hole in the bell housing?


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2018/02/544.jpg

[Robthebob]

Are you using the correct hole in the bell housing?


Thanks for this. Now that I see how the timing hole looks like, NO, I am not using the correct hole unfortunately.
Is there a way to get the timing back in order without getting to the lower sprocket?

[strangy]

Yes.
A little fiddle but doable.
First things first.
Assuming the motor was turned through by hand before cranking without interference.Its most likely only a tooth or so out.
If it wasn’t turned through by hand.
Since it has been cranking we can assume 1 of 2 things.
1/ the timing isn’t too far out and no damage has been done as above,
2/ ...let’s not go there for now.

With an assistant,turn the motor through by hand with the rocker cover off.
Align the flywheel timing mark.
Check the cam sprocket timing mark.
If it is somewhere around 180 degrees out, turn the motor through another 360 degrees to again align the flywheel timing mark.
The camshaft timing marks should now be closer to the correct position.
Fit the flywheel lock pin.
Remove the chain tensioner plunger.
You will likely need to remove the camshaft sprocket.
Initially cable tie the chain loosely to the camshaft sprocket and use a magnet on the sprocket bolts and ensure these to not fall into the front cover.

Disregard the colored links on the chain. They are no longer relevant in this case.
With the sprocket clear of the camshaft, rotate the camshaft back/forward to align its timing correctly and fit the pin.
NB This shouldn’t be more than a few degrees.
Now carefully slip the sprocket tooth around the chain to bring it back to the right spot.
Refit as book.
Rotate through by hand to confirm.

[CraigE]

If you have not moved anything and believe the timing chain etc have not been moved.
I have had the head off twice once for gasket/dowels and once for new head. After fitting took around 20-30 minutes to get it to fire up. I had fears of the same. When it did fire did run a little rough for a few seconds.
I had to use the purging procedure several times eg ignition on let fuel pump run until pump cuts out. Had to do this around 15 times.

[Robthebob]

Thank you VERY much, Strangy, for taking your time to help me out, I really appreciate. I will get into this later this week. I have one question regarding your explanation. you say:
With the sprocket clear of the camshaft, rotate the camshaft ...
How do I rotate the camshaft when not sprocket/chain connected?
Do I get it right?
1-align flywheel
2-check that cam shaft alignment is not too far
3-align flywheel again
4-disconnect cam sprocket from chain
5-rotate camshaft to alignment point
6-refit chain to sprocket in the right final position

Then, one more: with the head gasket I replaced all other gaskets and seals in the way. Of course they were all tighten up but never used under engine in function. Any of those gaskets seals that I have to replace anyway?

Again, thanks!

[Robthebob]

If you have not moved anything and believe the timing chain etc have not been moved.
I have had the head off twice once for gasket/dowels and once for new head. After fitting took around 20-30 minutes to get it to fire up. I had fears of the same. When it did fire did run a little rough for a few seconds.
I had to use the purging procedure several times eg ignition on let fuel pump run until pump cuts out. Had to do this around 15 times.

Thanks, of course I will double check that the timing is really off before doing anything at all, but from the photo I took of the flywheel timing hole, I am pretty sure it was the wrong hole I got, so out of time.

[strangy]

How do I rotate the camshaft when not sprocket/chain connected?
I typically have 2 of the cam sprocket bolts loosely fitted and then carefully use a large screw driver or long spanner as a lever/handle to rotate the cam.
You can also turn it via the sprocket with the chain disconnected, however it can be awkward.

Do I get it right?
1-align flywheel
2-check that cam shaft alignment is not too far
3-align flywheel again
4-disconnect cam sprocket from chain
5-rotate camshaft to alignment point
6-refit chain to sprocket in the right final position

Thats it[emoji106]

Its a good thing to have changed the other gaskets while you were at it.
If you fitted a new rocker cover gasket - it wont be a problem to re use it.
Shouldn't need to touch any of the others.

[Robthebob]

I typically have 2 of the cam sprocket bolts loosely fitted and then carefully use a large screw driver or long spanner as a lever/handle to rotate the cam.


That is what I did last time and I broke a sprocket bolt. I'll try to see if I can get to the cam timing mark first and then, disconnect it from the cam and get the flywheel aligned.

Concerning gaskets, maybe I wasn't clear: I just changed both manifolds, turbo and cylinder head gaskets. Do I have to replace them just because I have to open everything again? Aka once tighten to torque they have then to be discarded?

Thank you Strangy!

[strangy]

Hi, you shouldn’t need to remove anything except the rocker cover.
So all gaskets should remain in place.
However if you do/have removed any them, you will need to replace.
I have successfully managed to re use the exhaust turbo gaskets. definitely cant/wont save the inlet or head.

Backing off the injector arms will assist cam shaft rotation.
The camshaft shouldn’t have been that hard to rotate to result in broken bolts.?

Just saw your wanted ad.
So I guess you’ve found something rather unpleasant.

Have a look here also for some confidence/support extra info. Its a very informative thread.

TD5 Cylinder head removal - How to... (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/projects-tutorials/66259-td5-cylinder-head-removal-how.html)

Finally try not to stress. Hopefully it will be relatively straight forward fix.

[Robthebob]

I will do as you say. Thanks. Will keep you posted.

[Robthebob]

Hi Strangy, I followed directions but when I disconnect sprocket with chain, from camshaft, I can rotate engine only about 30 degrees in both directions, then it stucks and can't turn further. Any clue? Thanks

[AK83]

You haven't given a lot of info, so the question needs to be asked:
Did you get the head rebuilt?
If so, were the injectors removed?
If so, were they replaced in the same order?

Injectors have codes that need to be replaced in the correct order(according to the ECU code order).

Also, fuel pressure regulator .. was it removed, checked, etc.

[strangy]

Hi just saw this.
30 degrees is about all you will get before the pistons touch the valves.

If the cam sprocket is not fitted to the camshaft you should have the crank lock pin engaged and the camshaft pin engaged.


How many teeth on the cam sprocket need to be moved?

From here you need to move the sprocket to its correct position by disengaging it from the chain the number of teeth to enable the sprocket to be refitted to the camshaft .
Use a piece of string or cable tie to attach to sprocket do that you can retrieve it from the front cover if you slip/drop it.

[Robthebob]

Hi Strangy, thanks for all inputs. Now I am sure that the timing is ok. Both pins found their place, upper and lower!
Unfortunately the engine gives no signs of life...
I took off EGR along with all ancillaries. Could this stop the engine from starting?






Hi just saw this.
30 degrees is about all you will get before the pistons touch the valves.

If the cam sprocket is not fitted to the camshaft you should have the crank lock pin engaged and the camshaft pin engaged.


How many teeth on the cam sprocket need to be moved?

From here you need to move the sprocket to its correct position by disengaging it from the chain the number of teeth to enable the sprocket to be refitted to the camshaft .
Use a piece of string or cable tie to attach to sprocket do that you can retrieve it from the front cover if you slip/drop it.

[Robthebob]

Hi, yes the injectors were removed only after noting the order and code accorning to which they were refitted. Besides, I read that misordering the injectors should not prevent the car from firing, it will just run very bad.
What about fuel pressure regulator? I never heard about this check. Could you explain please?




You haven't given a lot of info, so the question needs to be asked:
Did you get the head rebuilt?
If so, were the injectors removed?
If so, were they replaced in the same order?

Injectors have codes that need to be replaced in the correct order(according to the ECU code order).

Also, fuel pressure regulator .. was it removed, checked, etc.

[AK83]

.... Could you explain please?

It's easier when it's already been explained(by someone who knows what they're talking about) rather than explain it again.

See Here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puipyCJnTUg) youtube video link.

[strangy]

Hi, yes the injectors were removed only after noting the order and code accorning to which they were refitted. Besides, I read that misordering the injectors should not prevent the car from firing, it will just run very bad.
What about fuel pressure regulator? I never heard about this check. Could you explain please?
Great news the timing is right.
You are correct, Injector order is irrelevant for a start and correct codes/order is for "trimming" the injectors for smoothest idle
EGR wont matter at all.
Show stoppers for the TD5 is only fuel pump and CPS (obviously ECU) It will run without all other sensors.
Dont be concerned about the ECU because it was running previously.
Assuming the fuel reg was ok before removal, even with a typical leak the fuel reg. shouldn't prevent a start.
However if the regulator block was removed, was the strainer clear/clean and correct gasket used? Fuel hoses fitted correctly.
Pump noise is the giveaway during the prime sequence. If its noisy it typically still has air in the system.
Typically the priming sequence can take some time and most likely just need a few more sequences and a well charged battery.

Some confirmation checks for the CPS (crank position sensor) connected/ no wiring damage.

I reckon a few more primes following the sequence and it will probably fire.
Two options for priming here.

Web Rover (http://www.web-rover.co.uk/nav.php?p=td5kb/fuelpurge)

[Robthebob]

I know both sequences and will try again tomorrow morning. We are about 16 hours apart...



Great news the timing is right.
You are correct, Injector order is irrelevant for a start and correct codes/order is for "trimming" the injectors for smoothest idle
EGR wont matter at all.
Show stoppers for the TD5 is only fuel pump and CPS (obviously ECU) It will run without all other sensors.
Dont be concerned about the ECU because it was running previously.
Assuming the fuel reg was ok before removal, even with a typical leak the fuel reg. shouldn't prevent a start.
However if the regulator block was removed, was the strainer clear/clean and correct gasket used? Fuel hoses fitted correctly.
Pump noise is the giveaway during the prime sequence. If its noisy it typically still has air in the system.
Typically the priming sequence can take some time and most likely just need a few more sequences and a well charged battery.

Some confirmation checks for the CPS (crank position sensor) connected/ no wiring damage.

I reckon a few more primes following the sequence and it will probably fire.
Two options for priming here.

Web Rover (http://www.web-rover.co.uk/nav.php?p=td5kb/fuelpurge)

[Robthebob]

Great news the timing is right.
Some confirmation checks for the CPS (crank position sensor) connected/ no wiring damage.



Hi, sorry, just checked on the manual and it does not mention this CPS.
Have a look at this photo

robertostephenson.com/TD5_problems/IMG_5259.JPG

Thank you

[AK83]

Hi, sorry, just checked on the manual and it does not mention this CPS.
Have a look at this photo

robertostephenson.com/TD5_problems/IMG_5259.JPG

Thank you


CPS is #9 on that page.
CPS = CKP

[Robthebob]

CPS is #9 on that page.
CPS = CKP

Cool, thanks!