Are the days of home vehicle repair coming to an end

[bob10]

From the US, tractor manufacturers are refusing to share their intellectual property, forcing farmers to go offshore to find the computer programs , thus voiding their warranty. Apparently, car manufacturers are now doing the same. Where do we stand with Land Rover?

www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2018-02-22/tractor-hacking-farmers-in-the-us-fight-for-right-to-repair/9470658?utm_source=sfmc&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=%3a8940&user_id=c17365ab07572ed90614d245ada5ad675f6bc00189 fa766123c70d76d1d7cddf&WT.tsrc=email&WT.mc_id=Email%7c%7c8940&utm_content=RuralMail_ArticleLink (http://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2018-02-22/tractor-hacking-farmers-in-the-us-fight-for-right-to-repair/9470658?utm_source=sfmc&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=%3a8940&user_id=c17365ab07572ed90614d245ada5ad675f6bc00189 fa766123c70d76d1d7cddf&WT.tsrc=email&WT.mc_id=Email%7c%7c8940&utm_content=RuralMail_ArticleLink)

[Tombie]

There was an argument along this lines back in the TD5 days..

Is modifying the code in the ECU breaching IP laws? Is selling modified code wrong?

Apple did similar with Jailbreaking, going as far as to lock some of its products to prevent hacking.

[PhilipA]

Funny, I found when I downloaded the TD5 maps on my Nanocom and read the text files that Volvo were the developers of the code.
Maybe there is a stipulation from the developers that the code cannot be onsold.

I wonder how many car makers outsource their code development?

I bet that Bosch do a lot of code development for many car companies.
Regards Philip A

[Tombie]

Volvo? Where in the code did you see something like that?

I’ve got the full binary dumps and I can not see it in there anywhere..

All TD5 ECU development was Lucas.

[Tote]

The John Deere case is worse than just modifying your ECU. Because all the components such as the gearbox(for example) are coded to the main ECU an "unauthorised" gearbox swap would make the tractor inoperable without the dealer resetting the ECU. As stated there are lots of ways around the problem (Firstly by not buying a JD) and the EU prevents such behavior by companies, hence the unencrypted firmware available on the net. I reckon JD have as much of a long term chance of making their "anti piracy" measures stick as Village Roadshow have of stopping movie piracy. Even worse for JD one $250,000 tractor that was held to ransom over a repair would be the last one bought by most cockies. To my knowledge AGCO and CNH aren't playing the game to the same extent.

Regards,
Tote

[superquag]

My info is that JD is not doing as well here in WA as they'd like to imagine...
Recently drove a Massey Ferguson tractor / Field bin for harvesting. - Actually, it's owned by Fendt / AGCO and I couldn't fault the technology. Worked perfectly smoooothly and didn't leak any oil. [bigwhistle]

After what JD did to West. Aust when it bought out CHAMBERLAIN Tractors - then reneged on the deal to keep them going... the sooner they're just a memory - the better, IMHO.

[350RRC]

Part of the reason I bought the Deutz-Fahr Agrolux I have..............no electronics.

Another side of this is that in the US AFAIK it is legally mandated that any 'thing' sold must have a comprehensive 'manual' that can be accessed by anyone, i.e. online.

cheers, DL

[Eevo]

some manufacturers now days are making servicing at home harder. no sump oil plug. have to extract the oil from above.

[Gordie]

The consumer needs to vote with their feet.

[350RRC]

some manufacturers now days are making servicing at home harder. no sump oil plug. have to extract the oil from above.

Just tip the mower upside down.

DL

[trout1105]

some manufacturers now days are making servicing at home harder. no sump oil plug. have to extract the oil from above.

They don't even come with a dipstick either.
The more complex the electronics get on a car/truck/tractor the more the stealers have you by the short an curlies.

[350RRC]

The John Deere case is worse than just modifying your ECU. Because all the components such as the gearbox(for example) are coded to the main ECU an "unauthorised" gearbox swap would make the tractor inoperable without the dealer resetting the ECU. As stated there are lots of ways around the problem (Firstly by not buying a JD) and the EU prevents such behavior by companies, hence the unencrypted firmware available on the net. I reckon JD have as much of a long term chance of making their "anti piracy" measures stick as Village Roadshow have of stopping movie piracy. Even worse for JD one $250,000 tractor that was held to ransom over a repair would be the last one bought by most cockies. To my knowledge AGCO and CNH aren't playing the game to the same extent.

Regards,
Tote

Will JD TRiUMP in this case?

DL

[bee utey]

some manufacturers now days are making servicing at home harder. no sump oil plug. have to extract the oil from above.

Home use evacuation kits are pretty cheap and save mess on the driveway. I've got a big one now and use it all the time. The first time I drain a vehicle with the vac tank I remove the sump plug after the vac to see how much it misses. If it's a trivial amount or none, the sump plug stays put from then on.

[Eevo]

Home use evacuation kits are pretty cheap and save mess on the driveway. I've got a big one now and use it all the time. The first time I drain a vehicle with the vac tank I remove the sump plug after the vac to see how much it misses. If it's a trivial amount or none, the sump plug stays put from then on.

for sure, but the point is manufactures are trying to discourage home servicing so the serving dept can make more money

[PhilipA]

I’ve got the full binary dumps and I can not see it in there anywhere..
Open the file as a text file on a PC and its all there.
Regards Philip A

[bee utey]

for sure, but the point is manufactures are trying to discourage home servicing so the serving dept can make more money

Been that way for decades. It's like security fasteners to try and stop you getting into things or D2 trannies not having filler tubes. Tools and instructions to get around these kinds of things appear on the market PDQ.

[Tombie]

Open the file as a text file on a PC and its all there.
Regards Philip A

Me thinks you have one that’s been played with...

[landy]

for sure, but the point is manufactures are trying to discourage home servicing so the serving dept can make more money

I'm not sure that's the driving factor but a knock on effect. If you don't Drill a hole, tap it, get one supplier to supply a sump plug, another to supply a copper washer and you produce a million cars of that model, how much money would you save?

home servicing is becoming less common simply due to the complexity of modern cars. We demand more and more features that the common consumer can't deal with.

I dont work in the trade anymore but have a hoist and all my tools and the first question I get is will it void my warranty. Guys I know at work that would have chang d their own oil and brake pads a few years ago just can't be arsed now because it's just too complex.

[Tombie]

Spot on I reckon!

That and people seem to be more “time poor”/disorganised or just CBF..

[ramblingboy42]

Have we got any young members here to comment on this?

A lot of us here are not young anymore and have been through the phase where it was almost a necessity to do home services. The points would pit and the plug gap would widen, the "water" in the radiator would get dirty , even muddy. Those of us keen enough would grease suspension joints etc...

If these things weren't done regularly....even in between service schedules....the vehicles performance and operation would deteriorate.

Most of those tasks were easy to do, accessibility was easy , several hand tools did the whole lot.

Modern vehicles with their excellent lubricants , fluids , ignition systems(ecu's) , much higher quality and endurable components don't require any attention for a year and more.

This makes most of the things we are talking about superfluous.

The engine oil in my ranger hardly changes colour, neither does the gearbox etc etc , nor the cooling fluid, nothing goes "out of tune".

I think we forget this and most younger people with late model vehicles will never have cause to do "home servicing".....there is nothing to do.

[trog]

All good points , as well it becomes increasingly harder if space is an issue. If in an apartment or other strata type of complex , or even a rental house , there might be rules about what you can and can’t do. Some even make a simple car wash against the rules .It just becomes easier to outsource this work so that you can do what you want , or do better.

[Gordie]

I service and work on all my older vehicles, the newer ones...I open the bonnet...go phhh and close it again...then go and do an overtime shift, which then pays for someone who has the gear and knows what they are doing...to work on the newer car.

[rick130]

Have we got any young members here to comment on this?

A lot of us here are not young anymore and have been through the phase where it was almost a necessity to do home services.

We also have you remember that as a society we've become less 'hands on'
Manual labour and trades are far less common than in the past, and become a very urban, white collar society and even most tradies can't/don't do anything beyond their expertise.

[Mick_Marsh]

A lot of things are being "sealed for life" as well.
A lot of modern gearboxes are "sealed for life". I think life is expected to be 200,000km to 300,000km. Then you get a new car which will be two or three times the price of a new gearbox.
Cars are becoming consumables.

[Tombie]

They’ve been that way since about 1975

[donh54]

Even a lot of qualified mechanics nowadays are nothing more than parts fitters. [bigwhistle]
When I was teaching at TAFE, I used to have lunch quite often with the Mechanical teachers. The older ones were despairing about where their trade had gone in such a short time. One said he spent the first 12 months of his apprenticeship doing nothing but cooling systems - re-coring radiators, putting new bushes and seals in water pumps, doing welch plugs, etc. Nowadays, they do a couple of 40 minute modules on cooling systems, and most of their tests are open book. [bigsad]
It was like when the wifes' Hyundai carked it in Brissy one day. (I was in Melbourne) I told her to ring the RACQ, get towed to a workshop, and tell them it needed a fuel filter. The mechanic at the workshop plugged in hyis OBD reader, and decided that the Fuel pressure regulating switch was reading out of range. $200 worth of switch, and the car crapped itself 10 kms up the road. This time she stood on her digs, and told them to put in a filter. Car hasn't had a problem since.
The bloke knew how to use the reader, but didn't understand that the reason that sensor was reading the way it was, was because the filter upstream of it wasn't letting enough fuel through. Just slavishly following what the reader said, with no actual trouble-shooting skills whatsoever.
I think it's becoming MORE necessary to do your own mechanical stuff, especially if you run something a little bit out of the ordinary (like most of us do) [biggrin]

[PhilipA]

This is addressed to Tombie.
I usually don't say something unless I am sure.
Below is the first file in the set of TD5 map files taken from my ECU when I remapped .
It is pretty clear that Volvo generated the software for Gen3 TD5.

header {
//************************************************** ********
//*
//* Volvo Car Corporation
//*
//* This file is generated by VBF CONVERT ver. 3.1.6
//*
//* DO NOT EDIT !
//*
//************************************************** ********
// Volvo software part number
sw_part_number = "5H22-14C273-TB";
// Volvo software part type: Secondary bootloader
sw_part_type = SBL;
// Network: CAN high speed main network
network = CAN_HS;
// ECU address used for: PCM - Powertrain Control Module [0x10 / CAN MS]
ecu_address = 0x10;

[bob10]

So, as well as what some are saying is the new defender of 4x4, a la easy to work on. they also have good tractors. Easy to work on? don't know. Have to pass this on. Got a mate with a Mahindra 4x4, always putting **** on my D2, he is now sitting in Mudgee with a broken cam shaft at 90,000 kms, I am at home with a D2 with over 400,000 kms. Rang him and put the boot in , as you do.

Mahindra Agriculture | Award Winning Tractors (https://mahindraag.com.au/)

[Tombie]

This is addressed to Tombie.
I usually don't say something unless I am sure.
Below is the first file in the set of TD5 map files taken from my ECU when I remapped .
It is pretty clear that Volvo generated the software for Gen3 TD5.

header {
//************************************************** ********
//*
//* Volvo Car Corporation
//*
//* This file is generated by VBF CONVERT ver. 3.1.6
//*
//* DO NOT EDIT !
//*
//************************************************** ********
// Volvo software part number
sw_part_number = "5H22-14C273-TB";
// Volvo software part type: Secondary bootloader
sw_part_type = SBL;
// Network: CAN high speed main network
network = CAN_HS;
// ECU address used for: PCM - Powertrain Control Module [0x10 / CAN MS]
ecu_address = 0x10;

Phillip....
Can you provide more details?

Homologation Number etc?

You downloaded this with Nanocom you say?

I’ve got 5 Binary dumps from late TD5s sitting here and not one has *any* reference To Volvo.
No amount of research has found a link to it either.

And I am curious how the Nanocom suddenly seems to have changed to multiple files for remapping... it was a single file...

What is the file IDs?

For your reference:
5H22-14C273-TB by the way is firmware for the D3 up to 2009..... [emoji41]

So it’s pretty clear you grabbed a non TD5 file [emoji12][emoji6]

[Tins]

Even a lot of qualified mechanics nowadays are nothing more than parts fitters. [bigwhistle]
When I was teaching at TAFE, I used to have lunch quite often with the Mechanical teachers. The older ones were despairing about where their trade had gone in such a short time. One said he spent the first 12 months of his apprenticeship doing nothing but cooling systems - re-coring radiators, putting new bushes and seals in water pumps, doing welch plugs, etc. Nowadays, they do a couple of 40 minute modules on cooling systems, and most of their tests are open book. [bigsad]
It was like when the wifes' Hyundai carked it in Brissy one day. (I was in Melbourne) I told her to ring the RACQ, get towed to a workshop, and tell them it needed a fuel filter. The mechanic at the workshop plugged in hyis OBD reader, and decided that the Fuel pressure regulating switch was reading out of range. $200 worth of switch, and the car crapped itself 10 kms up the road. This time she stood on her digs, and told them to put in a filter. Car hasn't had a problem since.
The bloke knew how to use the reader, but didn't understand that the reason that sensor was reading the way it was, was because the filter upstream of it wasn't letting enough fuel through. Just slavishly following what the reader said, with no actual trouble-shooting skills whatsoever.
I think it's becoming MORE necessary to do your own mechanical stuff, especially if you run something a little bit out of the ordinary (like most of us do) [biggrin]

Remember scraping bearings? Reaming king pin bushes? King pin inclination? Aiming headlights ffs! Glad that I did it. Glad that I don't have to even think about it now.

[Bigbjorn]

Back in the 1980's, my then employer represented a US manufacturer of small earthmoving equipment and farm equipment. We also sold v. large mining trucks. The small equipment maker did not supply workshop manuals or parts books for sale to owners, only operator's manuals. Their attitude was to take it to a dealer. Great stuff in the USA where I was told there was rarely a situation where a dealer was more than 40 miles away. We sold quite a few of these to mines and govt. depts who all required multiple copies of operator's, parts, and workshop manuals. We had to make these up. All hands to the photocopiers.

One of the mining giants required seven copies of each, pages in plastic protectors and in arch binders. The stack of binders for a large dump truck boggled the imagination. I still wonder what they did with seven copies.

[Tombie]

Back in the 1980's, my then employer represented a US manufacturer of small earthmoving equipment and farm equipment. We also sold v. large mining trucks. The small equipment maker did not supply workshop manuals or parts books for sale to owners, only operator's manuals. Their attitude was to take it to a dealer. Great stuff in the USA where I was told there was rarely a situation where a dealer was more than 40 miles away. We sold quite a few of these to mines and govt. depts who all required multiple copies of operator's, parts, and workshop manuals. We had to make these up. All hands to the photocopiers.

One of the mining giants required seven copies of each, pages in plastic protectors and in arch binders. The stack of binders for a large dump truck boggled the imagination. I still wonder what they did with seven copies.

One for the workshop, each of the service trucks, service manager..

[3toes]

Cars are becoming consumables.

There is a company here in the UK which for a fixed monthly premium provides the car and all standard costs like insurance and servicing you just put in fuel. Cars are all new from the dealer and you can change car or walk away after 6 months no long term commitment. Monthly cost is slightly less than a loan for the same car over 4 years. Is currently marketed at the company car driver who was dodging the high company car tax rates and has less options now that the pay for your car out of pre tax income has been removed. Anyone car take one of their cars the only 'problem' I see is that they are limited to what the manufactures are prepared to supply them under fleet prices.

A USA based company last year raised $1.0B US to do similar for used cars with the commitment being only one month. They are though looking for a deposit which the one above does not. This one has backing from BMW and Mercedes

[bob10]

Aussie farmers demand the right to repair


Farmers driving 'right to repair' issue as legislative battle unfolds in US - ABC Rural - ABC News (http://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2018-03-11/farmers-spearhead-right-to-repair-fight/9535730?utm_source=sfmc&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=%3a8940&user_id=c17365ab07572ed90614d245ada5ad675f6bc00189 fa766123c70d76d1d7cddf&WT.tsrc=email&WT.mc_id=Email%7c%7c8940&utm_content=RuralMail_ArticleLink)

[superquag]

A lot of things are being "sealed for life" as well.
A lot of modern gearboxes are "sealed for life". I think life is expected to be 200,000km to 300,000km. Then you get a new car which will be two or three times the price of a new gearbox.
Cars are becoming consumables.


Which makes Chinese utes and 4WD cars a more attractive propo$ition

- Farmer friend traded out of his ( 3 litre Diesel) BT50 after 10K service ! - Mainly fuel thirst that would make a Classic v8 look abstemious... and an exhaust system waiting to burn his paddocks.

Looked at the LDV, but wanted the bigger engine. The irresistable trade-in clinched it for the ISUZU, which sips the fuel for more power and range.

[bob10]

The Mahindra Pikup is looking more attractive , especially after one motoring "expert " said it had the driving position of a defender.

[cripesamighty]

There are at least a couple of guys on here who have Mahindra's and speak highly of them. Very Defender-like in other ways too.

[scarry]

There are at least a couple of guys on here who have Mahindra's and speak highly of them. Very Defender-like in other ways too.

Like build quality,but definitely not resale value..[wink11]

[bob10]

There are at least a couple of guys on here who have Mahindra's and speak highly of them. Very Defender-like in other ways too.

The price is right. They do the job with very few frills, similar to the defender. A genuine 1 ton ute, not one for the " look at me " crowd, just quietly goes about its business. Not perfect, but good enough. The only defect I have heard of was a friend of mine had his cam shaft snap in two, bad casting I guess. The next time my D2 decides to have a hissy fit, I'll take a Mahindra for a test drive. I said that in the D2 , and since then she's been driving like a dream.[thumbsupbig]

[cripesamighty]

Good job. Keep threatening the D2 to behave itself!!

[Fatso]

I once had a Lada Niva 4x4 basic as , never missed a beat . downside was slow & unconfrtable and everybody used to poke **** at it , upside easy as to fix would have taken the thing any-where .