I've got to ask, to helmet or not?

[Mick_Marsh]

Bike helmet laws to be examined by ACT Road Safety Minister amid rise of bike-sharing services - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-23/bike-helmet-laws-could-go-in-canberra-road-safety-minister/9477782)

I've got to say, if you think you're riding the Giro d'Italia, I'd suggest you'd be mad not to wear a helmet.

But what of the bike sharing schemes? What if you're cycling a little faster than walking pace?
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2018/02/648.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2018/02/649.jpg


Should a helmet be optional in that case?

[Classic88]

That's a lot of potential revenue lost: Cycling fines soar in first year of harsher penalties in NSW (http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/cycling-fines-soar-in-first-year-of-harsher-penalties-in-nsw-20170801-gxn311.html)

[PhilipA]

If you fall on your head even if stopped you can die. Look at the coward punch victims.

I reluctantly bought a helmet when I picked up a free bike recently off my street. Bike =0 Helmet $39.
Regards Philip A

[JR1]

Having worked in healthcare, I can say that the cost of patients in ICU for a few weeks with traumatic head injuries far exceeds the revenue raised from fines.
It can probably be said that most people who crash suffer minimal injuries that a helmet probably wouldn’t help. But that doesn’t mean you can’t have pretty catastrophic injuries at slow speeds.
I also see a lot of broken hips in cyclists who fall off their bikes whilst stationary. Hips are pretty robust compared to skulls with velocity. My 2 cents.
Josh.

[Gordie]

Rode all through childhood with no helmet...rode m/bikes on farms, no helmet...had some good spills, managed to live through it. Would be happy to see helmet laws gone.

[weeds]

If I’m out on the roadie running shoulders with traffic @30km/hr or fanging it down it down some single track I wear a helmet......

Cruising down to the shops or along the esplanade I leave helmet at home.

[Classic88]

The theory of Risk Compensation has been applied to cycling and found that "bicycle-related fatalities are positively and significantly associated with increased helmet use". A separate study also found that motorists gave less room to cyclists wearing helmets.

[grey_ghost]

I have to admit - I thought that this thread was initially about something else... [bighmmm]

[Grumbles]

As kids we used to ride a horse up the back paddock - no bridle, no saddle, just a firm grip on the horses mane. Every evening down at the house someone would bash the horses feed bin. That was the dinner signal. With kid hanging on for dear life the horse went flat out down to his dinner and straight at the house gate and then go from flat out to stop in a second or two. Needless to say the hapless kid on board kept going, over the horses head and over the gate to hit the ground with a mighty thump. Never a broken bone let alone a head injury.

Same thing with push bikes. We only ever sustained bruises - never a broken bone.

[Gordie]

I have to admit - I thought that this thread was initially about something else... [bighmmm]once again, no helmet thanks....[bigwhistle]

[Mick_Marsh]

The theory of Risk Compensation has been applied to cycling and found that "bicycle-related fatalities are positively and significantly associated with increased helmet use". A separate study also found that motorists gave less room to cyclists wearing helmets.
Sounds reasonable.
You got a link to the studies?

[Classic88]

Sounds reasonable.
You got a link to the studies?

Here's the first: Effectiveness of cycle helmets and the ethics of legislation (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1079573/)

And the second: Drivers overtaking bicyclists: Objective data on the effects of riding position, helmet use, vehicle type and apparent gender - ScienceDirect (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0001457506001540)

[trog]

Glad to see this brought up again. I did the same a few years back and got quite a serving. All points I have read are on lots of different web sites arguing this , often backed up by data. I have always believed it should be discretionary, and never understood what made things here an NZ so special that we have these laws. Not really embraced by any other country third world or first world.
Final thought , if I were to get thumped by a vehicle, the lid might save my brains from oozing out but what of my face , spine , limbs ?

[rovers4]

Tassie has now for many years had legislation requiring cyclists to wear helmets, regardless of speed or location.

Skate-boarders, quad-bike riders, and any other powered cycle riders are all required to wear them too.

And not an old builder's safety helmet either. Must be either a bicycle helmet, or a motor-cycle type.


The guy that presents our tv news has just recently returned to the screen. He took a tumble from his mountain bike, landed awkwardly and broke his neck. His helmet prevented brain damage.
After a stint in hospital, months of re-cuperation, some weeks just on radio, he is now back on the tellie.
One Peter Gee, (used to cover sport for Vic ABC TV) now swears by the use of helmets.


If you have taken a tumble and survived while not wearing one, you are indeed very lucky. Maybe you even suffered a minor fracture and don't know it. Go get things checked even now. Might explain the eye-strain/headaches, stiffness.

[trout1105]

When my kids were younger it was a case of No helmet No riding and if I caught the little buggers out riding without their helmet the got a thrashing and No bike for a week, The same goes for my grandkids.
You Mob can do what you like But I value the lives of my family and Seriously how Bloody hard is it to put a helmet on.

[rangieman]

Rode all through childhood with no helmet...rode m/bikes on farms, no helmet...had some good spills, managed to live through it. Would be happy to see helmet laws gone.
This sort of comment really is on the dumb side of life [bighmmm]
Im no cyclist and i have no issue wearing a helmet if god forbid i was dumb enough to ride a bike .
Many years ago i thought weary protective clothing on a motorbike was for Pussy`s .
I will not go into the finer points of why i changed my mind but let`s just say i had a couple of uncomfortable months [bawl]
Now i just cringe when i seen some brain dead idiot riding a motorbike with shorts , thongs , t/shirt and so on .

At the end of the day it is like seat belts and all that other BS your new cars have to reduce the effect of injury in a car accident .

Yes it took me years to wear a seat belt but i grew up and got wiser and smarter and i dont care if i look like a dick [tonguewink]
Mentally i get that warm fussy sort of safe feeling [thumbsupbig]

I don`t care if you wear a helmet or not it is your life .
But i will say think of those that have to pick up the pieces and or care for your brain dead soul after your little rebellious hissy fit .
And no i don`t ride a push bike nor intend to .
I do still ride a motorbike and if i can reduce the chance of greater injury than i am already aware of i will , But i will not stop riding until the day im unable too[biggrin]

[Gordie]

This sort of comment really is on the dumb side of life [bighmmm]


I don`t care if you wear a helmet or not it is your life .
[biggrin] Yes well dumb I may be, but the fact that I have safely ridden all my life, stands.

Precisely, it is my life, my decision. I also made my kids wear them...I didn't need a law to tell me to do that.

If I were riding down the side of a mountain like some of the thrill seekers do...yes I would wear a helmet. But I shouldn't get pinged for riding through my quiet suburban streets to the shop, for not having one.

And...it's the thin end of the wedge...farmers in NZ now face a $15k fine for breach of OHS if they are found not to wear a helmet on a m/bike, on their private land. If anyone does the same thing on a public road, it is a small fine.

[Gordie]

But i will say think of those that have to pick up the pieces and or care for your brain dead soul after your little rebellious hissy fit .
[biggrin] And If you call that a hissyfit...well...I shall stand corrected and go stand in the corner sir. Sorry I spoke.

[rangieman]

Yes well dumb I may be, but the fact that I have safely ridden all my life, stands.

Precisely, it is my life, my decision. I also made my kids wear them...I didn't need a law to tell me to do that.

If I were riding down the side of a mountain like some of the thrill seekers do...yes I would wear a helmet. But I shouldn't get pinged for riding through my quiet suburban streets to the shop, for not having one.

And...it's the thin end of the wedge...farmers in NZ now face a $15k fine for breach of OHS if they are found not to wear a helmet on a m/bike, on their private land. If anyone does the same thing on a public road, it is a small fine.
Well i grew up riding a push bike with out a helmet and i survived so does that make it right of course not .
I will try not to be ignorant nor selfish for the sake of safety .

[Gordie]

Well i grew up riding a push bike with out a helmet and i survived so does that make it right of course not .
I will try not to be ignorant nor selfish for the sake of safety .We think a lot along the same lines...I wouldn't ride my m.bike without one, I wear leathers on a 40deg day, I hate it, but I am partial to my skin remaining intact...once again...I don't need laws to make me do that...no law says I have to wear leathers.

And re having consideration for the people picking up bodies, been there done that...and the injuries I have dealt with, fatal and otherwise...a helmet would not have helped...be it on a bike, m/bike or in a car. Other injuries killed them.

[rangieman]

Enough said by me [bighmmm]
Im no expert and are happy with the law`s that be and my 2 cent`s worth [wink11]

[bee utey]

In my many years of riding quiet roads and tracks I've never had a car related prang, but had a few falls where a helmet definitely saved me from a bigger hurt. I've seen friends come off too, and a lot of them have been pretty glad their brains had some protection. But on the mandatory thing, I'm not 100% sure.

[bikeman]

as a kid I rode to school, primary and secondary. We had no helmets then. I now ride off road and will never ride without a helmet..... the last big off the Dr in emergency said that I was soooo close to a wheelchair it wasn't funny. A slow fall from any bike could end you in hospital with a serious head injury. Your brain, your call but not your kids...

[trog]

If these laws are so good why haven’t they been adopted by more countries other than here and New Zealand ?
I can legally drink or smoke myself to death , so why can’t I have a helmetless trundle like those elsewhere on our planet ?

[biggin]

Because Nanny is concerned about you and knows better.

[trog]

😂

[austastar]

Hi,
I hated the helmet law, and held out as long as possible.
Then one day, riding to work, down hill, a small rivet holding the wire stay at the back of the front plastic mudguard decided to drop out.
At the time, all I remember was some sod belting me over the head with a bat and instant "good-night".
I woke up, glasses askew, looking down a storm water grate thinking "I'm glad that isn't a double white line".
An ambulance picked me up on a striker frame and it was off to A & for assessment.
Nothing broken, just torn and bruised, so was sent home.

A few days later I dragged my sorry self downstairs to check out the bike and found my helmet.
Cloth covered and a foam shell, it was cracked in half across the top. Under the cover, above my forehead was a perfect indentation of the coarse bitumen gravel of the road.
The realisation of what I had just survived made my knees wobbly and nearly I fainted.
Further examination of the bike and gear revealed the following.

When the rivet let go, the wire stay dropped on to the tyre and was carried up to the front forks, jamming the front wheel solid and bending the forks back so the tyre hit the frame.
This rotated the bike over the front wheel, slamming me head first into the road, rolling over onto my back (spine protected by the rucksack containing rain coat etc) and over again on to my stomach looking down the grate.

Apart from bruising and a tear on my jacket shoulder, I escaped serious injury. The impact of the road on my forehead destroyed the helmet which saved my scull from colapsing.

I sent the helmet back to the Australian manufacturers who were grateful for a real test of their product, and organised a new one for me.

Would I ride without one? Maybe, but not for commuting in traffic.

Cheers

[DiscoMick]

We only get one brain in life, and once damaged it can rarely be repaired. I only had to meet people with serious brain injuries to realise how easy it was to be permanently damaged. Wearing a helmet is a trivial inconvenience compared with the danger of suffering brain injury. It's not just us that suffer either, it's our families and friends who are stuck with having to care for us.

[trog]

I can say that in the past I have had some pretty nasty accidents on my bikes.
Not one of them would have been aided by a helmet unless full face, at least time has faded the facial scars. I think I must have damaged most every finger in crashes , mates broke fingers up to shoulders .
We can all come up with individual cases for and against, I still think it should be an individual choice , like previously stated smoking and drinking , just to name two. It is nice to be able to hop on a bike in other lands for a ride and sight see , without the lid.

[trout1105]

The compulsory helmet laws came in because too many people were getting head injuries, Much the same reason seat belts are compulsory.
I can recall that there was a plethora of Dumb anti seatbelt arguments when they were first made compulsory and yet these would have saved countless lives (Mine included) since that legislation was enacted.
I have No solid proof that bike helmets have done the same as seatbelts have But Seriously where is the harm in wearing one and because there is a chance of getting a fine for Not wearing one it is a good incentive to strap one on [thumbsupbig]
I suppose that ABS and airbags are considered to be pointless "Nanny State" regulations by the helmet naysayers as well [bigwhistle]

[mick88]

ABI's (Acquired Brain Injuries) are for life and can be easily acquired.
It doesn't take much of a knock to get a head injury that can extend from
being just a mild concussion through to a full blown ABI, or even death.
It is irrelevant what speed "you" are doing, it's all about the head strike.
Helmets prevent injuries and save lives, there is no doubt about it.

Cheers, Mick.

[scarry]

The youngest son does a lot of mountain bike riding.
SWMBO bought him a full faced helmet which he wears all the time he is on the trails.

Bloody expensive,around $400 from memory,but worth every cent.

[CraigE]

Too many people making absolute moronic comments like"I rode without one and am allright". Yeah you are ok until you are not. The same can be said for car accidents we all have cars but not all of us have been in severe car accidents.
You think you are bullet proof then maybe go and spend some time in a rehab hospital or attend a scene where a kid has been thrown head first onto a road with no helmet. Will help you change your mind very quickly unless you have an ego the size of Barnaby.
I have never hit my head coming off a motorbike either but would never even imaging getting on one without a helmet.
I have never been in a serious car accident either so I could say the same about seat belts, air bags etc.
But of course as some of the mentality here seems to believe "It will never happen to me" and maybe not but what about your grand kids or kids that copy you and end up with brain damage for life from not wearing them.
Sorry but these arrogant **** weak excuses due to ego really annoy me.

[rangieman]

The youngest son does a lot of mountain bike riding.
SWMBO bought him a full faced helmet which he wears all the time he is on the trails.

Bloody expensive,around $400 from memory,but worth every cent.
Not really that expensive , You can pay 4 times that .
But really what is your life worth at the end of the day $400.oo is not a lot is it[wink11]

[Gordie]

Too many people making absolute moronic comments like"I rode without one and am allright". Yeah you are ok until you are not. The same can be said for car accidents we all have cars but not all of us have been in severe car accidents.
You think you are bullet proof then maybe go and spend some time in a rehab hospital or attend a scene where a kid has been thrown head first onto a road with no helmet. Will help you change your mind very quickly unless you have an ego the size of Barnaby.
I have never hit my head coming off a motorbike either but would never even imaging getting on one without a helmet.
I have never been in a serious car accident either so I could say the same about seat belts, air bags etc.
But of course as some of the mentality here seems to believe "It will never happen to me" and maybe not but what about your grand kids or kids that copy you and end up with brain damage for life from not wearing them.
Sorry but these arrogant **** weak excuses due to ego really annoy me.You make some good points for your argument...just a pity that you have to diminish it by resorting to calling those with another view point 'moronic', 'arrogant', and egotistical.

[trout1105]

You make some good points for your argument...just a pity that you have to diminish it by resorting to calling those with another view point 'moronic', 'arrogant', and egotistical.

Why is it a pity to use "moronic', 'arrogant', and egotistical" in the post when Many of us were thinking exactly the same thing, I can see absolutely Nothing wrong in calling a spade a spade.
Personally I thought CraigE's post was "Spot On" and well worded [thumbsupbig]

[Gordie]

Why is it a pity to use "moronic', 'arrogant', and egotistical" in the post when Many of us were thinking exactly the same thing, I can see absolutely Nothing wrong in calling a spade a spade.
Personally I thought CraigE's post was "Spot On" and well worded [thumbsupbig]ahhh my mistake...I thought this forum was about not making personal attacks....and I also erred in thinking the OP wanted opinions for and against helmets. I am for helmets, I am against the laws. I enjoy reading the debate from both sides....but not the sledging.

[trout1105]

ahhh my mistake...I thought this forum was about not making personal attacks....and I also erred in thinking the OP wanted opinions for and against helmets. I am for helmets, I am against the laws. I enjoy reading the debate from both sides....but not the sledging.

I didn't see it as a personal attack whatsoever, For that to happen the members name/names would need to be used in a post or a members post is used as a quote.
I personally saw the post as simply an "Opinion" and not as an attack on anyone in particular.

[Gordie]

I didn't see it as a personal attack whatsoever, For that to happen the members name/names would need to be used in a post or a members post is used as a quote.
I personally saw the post as simply an "Opinion" and not as an attack on anyone in particular.Just scroll back through the posts and you will soon see who is being referred to, anyone who stated, like myself the fact...that they have done alright thus far without a helmet!

But as I said, I respect opposing views, and have been persuaded by some of those views that maybe they have merit. As I said, the OP asked for views. He didn't ask for a thread full of people agreeing on needing helmet laws...and those that dissent are labelled as providing moronic views, from their over inflated ego's, in their arrogant little la la land!

And by the way....these days I wear a bike helmet...and I think I look quite good in it...so no ego on my behalf!! [smilebigeye]

[trog]

After innumerable posts questions asked , why have no other countries barring New Zealand adopted helmet laws ?

[trout1105]

Please explain how posting on a Public forum that anyone can read and "Skiting" about Not wearing a helmet and pretty much condoning that practice isn't "
moronic', 'arrogant', and egotistical" ?

[Gordie]

Please explain how posting on a Public forum that anyone can read and "Skiting" about Not wearing a helmet and pretty much condoning that practice isn't "
moronic', 'arrogant', and egotistical" ?
Your opinion is pro helmets and helmet laws. I respect that. By calling opinions opposing yours 'moronic, arrogant and egotistical' you are saying that anyone not agreeing with your opinion, falls into that category. And that you have no respect for any opinion but your own..... All I ask is that it is debated without the sledging.

[Slunnie]

The compulsory helmet laws came in because too many people were getting head injuries, Much the same reason seat belts are compulsory.
I can recall that there was a plethora of Dumb anti seatbelt arguments when they were first made compulsory and yet these would have saved countless lives (Mine included) since that legislation was enacted.
I have No solid proof that bike helmets have done the same as seatbelts have But Seriously where is the harm in wearing one and because there is a chance of getting a fine for Not wearing one it is a good incentive to strap one on [thumbsupbig]
I suppose that ABS and airbags are considered to be pointless "Nanny State" regulations by the helmet naysayers as well [bigwhistle]

I remember the arguements that ABS and SRS have made people brake later and drive closer than ever before. I recall one comentator in a doco saying the best way to stop people driving stupidly is to fit a great big spike on the steering wheel pointing straight at their heart.

My opinion on helmets is that they should be compulsory. Everybody on a bike has a crash at some stage, and to see the helmet shattered from front to back is a sickening eye opener that would have been your skull if it werent for the helmet. I also don't believe we should be aspiring to the lowest safety standard of alternative countries.

[CraigE]

Just scroll back through the posts and you will soon see who is being referred to, anyone who stated, like myself the fact...that they have done alright thus far without a helmet!

But as I said, I respect opposing views, and have been persuaded by some of those views that maybe they have merit. As I said, the OP asked for views. He didn't ask for a thread full of people agreeing on needing helmet laws...and those that dissent are labelled as providing moronic views, from their over inflated ego's, in their arrogant little la la land!

And by the way....these days I wear a bike helmet...and I think I look quite good in it...so no ego on my behalf!! [smilebigeye]

It was not a personal attack, but a general statement on the mindset of people that dont think they need a helmet, but I dont back away from the statement either. It is a statement on the attitude of said positions. He asked for views and got mine, not just views that disagree with the laws, mine is from a perspective of attending incidents. Too many people that think it will never happen to me. We all grew up not wearing helmets and survived, but also know people that suffered minor and severe head injuries as a result. Times have changed as has protective gear. As I said I have not had a vehicle accident wear I needed a seat belt either in a road car but I would not get in a car and not put one on either, again I have seen the result too often of people that also think this law is wrong, usually on the bonnet or on the road after being ejected.
It is just plain egotistical and arrogant to think it will never happen to you, there are certain plots of land that are full of people that think they are indestructible.. :soapbox:

[weeds]

Gotta love bike threads........they always turn into a **** fight.

[scarry]

I have to admit - I thought that this thread was initially about something else... [bighmmm]


Maybe weeds avatar?[biggrin][bighmmm]

[CraigE]

After innumerable posts questions asked , why have no other countries barring New Zealand adopted helmet laws ?

Actually several countries have bicycle helmet laws of some sort, Australia and New Zealand are just the most comprehensive. Canada, Finland, Iceland, Sweden, Czech Republic and even parts of the US.
New Zealand enforces the laws the most rigorously.
While law in WA very rarely enforced and that is a big part of the problem, making people complacent.
IMHO if laws are changed or not and you dont wear a helmet and receive a head injury attributable to not wearing a helmet there should be no compensation and you should have to foot all medical bills. Your choice, well ok then thats fine, but you need to then accept all consequences and liability. But hey we live in a society that these days does not want to accept responsibility for their actions and choices.

[CraigE]

Gotta love bike threads........they always turn into a **** fight.
Hey I prefer a **** fight here rather than picking up someone with a smashed melon.[thumbsupbig]
Ask anyone that has seen a Basal skull fracture and watched someone depart this world for the sake of a $40 helmet messing up their hair.[bigsad]

[weeds]

Hey I prefer a **** fight here rather than picking up someone with a smashed melon.[thumbsupbig]
Ask anyone that has seen a Basal skull fracture and watched someone depart this world for the sake of a $40 helmet messing up their hair.[bigsad]

I don’t think the **** fights on here change anybody’s mindset.......

The OP asked a question about helmet or not, I knew I should have posted att he start.

Either way its just announced we are out of milk so one of the kids and I are about to ride down to the shop to buy a bottle. I’m betting no helmet for this trip.

This arvo I’ll be mountain biking with a bunch of mates, helmet ? **** yeah 100%

[martnH]

I .... Had a accident on my bike.
I was doing 65to 70km/h when I hit the fence.... That was because of a stupid kid running into the bike lane

At 65km/h I could have done serious damage.....

Anyway bike totaled and I survived. Helmet was cracked


Just to mention, I was riding a tt bike so my head land first...

[mick88]

Hey I prefer a **** fight here rather than picking up someone with a smashed melon.[thumbsupbig]
Ask anyone that has seen a Basal skull fracture and watched someone depart this world for the sake of a $40 helmet messing up their hair.[bigsad]

Yep!
I agree.

Cheers, Mick.

[martnH]

I think it's fair for people, who choose to opt out from Medicare, not to wear helmet or to do whatever they want....If they will not use public health system.... Including ambulance

Because I surely don't want to pay for a preventable 30days hospilation in ICU.

[rangieman]

I think it's fair for people, who choose to opt out from Medicare, not to wear helmet or to do whatever they want....If they will not use public health system.... Including ambulance

Because I surely don't want to pay for a preventable 30days hospilation in ICU.
So what happens then we have a mentality like the US[bighmmm]
Just imagine walking down the shops and stepping over these brain dead or mangled body`s left on the foot path and no one giving a dam or blinking a eye .
A sad state of affairs:bat:

[trog]

So what happens then we have a mentality like the US[bighmmm]
Just imagine walking down the shops and stepping over these brain dead or mangled body`s left on the foot path and no one giving a dam or blinking a eye .
A sad state of affairs:bat:

Speed bumps for runners and skate boarders ?

[Gordie]

ok...I give up, you have flushed me out...I have a confession to make.....[bigsad]

I am known to drive a series landy...at times I even whirl her up to 80kph down a state highway.

It is a moronic act by me....as by todays standards...she is positively dangerous...no inertia reel seat belts, no air bags, no crumple zone, lots of sharp steel...to name a few of the non-safety items proliferating in my dear Lola.

But it does massage my ego to drive around in my girl....one day I reckon my theory of her being a chick magnet may come to fruition...but alas at the moment, all I seem to attract is crusty old men wanting to look at her and talk to me...ego takes a hit there.

The worst thing though folks, is my arrogance....I believe that I shouldn't be forced to wear a helmet while driving said Landy. No doubt there are people and legislators out there, that would love to introduce laws to protect me from myself...but heaven forbid!

And for those who doubt a helmet is actually required...I can show (proudly) a 3 inch scar on my forehead from 30 odd years ago...where after hitting a bank on a mountainous road in a SI, I got stitches after head butting the dash!! Man...I love that scar...that is my Landy-scar...I feel like getting Land Rover badge tattooed over it!! [thumbsupbig] Reckless twit aren't I!!!

[Mick_Marsh]

ok...I give up, you have flushed me out...I have a confession to make.....[bigsad]

I am known to drive a series landy...at times I even whirl her up to 80kph down a state highway.

It is a moronic act by me....as by todays standards...she is positively dangerous...no inertia reel seat belts, no air bags, no crumple zone, lots of sharp steel...to name a few of the non-safety items proliferating in my dear Lola.

But it does massage my ego to drive around in my girl....one day I reckon my theory of her being a chick magnet may come to fruition...but alas at the moment, all I seem to attract is crusty old men wanting to look at her and talk to me...ego takes a hit there.

The worst thing though folks, is my arrogance....I believe that I shouldn't be forced to wear a helmet while driving said Landy. No doubt there are people and legislators out there, that would love to introduce laws to protect me from myself...but heaven forbid!

And for those who doubt a helmet is actually required...I can show (proudly) a 3 inch scar on my forehead from 30 odd years ago...where after hitting a bank on a mountainous road in a SI, I got stitches after head butting the dash!! Man...I love that scar...that is my Landy-scar...I feel like getting Land Rover badge tattooed over it!! [thumbsupbig] Reckless twit aren't I!!!
Damned good point. I was only thinking similar yesterday as I toddled off down the street in my S3 at 60km/h to put my lotto on.

[Gordie]

Damned good point. I was only thinking similar yesterday as I toddled off down the street in my S3 at 60km/h to put my lotto on.And I think people have missed my point...I have no bones with helmets...I wear one on my m/bike and would without a law. I wear one on my cycle and in most scenarios, would without a law. I wear leathers on my m/bike and there is no law telling me to do so.

But the laws just creep along...as I stated earlier...farmers in NZ now face $15k fines if caught on their own farms without a m/bike helmet. I have worked on farms, once again, helmets have their place at times...but at other times are impractical.

Where do we stop....I am a tall person...if I trip over on the footpath...I should really have a helmet on and it will crack my head when I land. Footy players suffer concussion regularly...make a law, put helmets on...

[trout1105]

Your opinion is pro helmets and helmet laws. I respect that. By calling opinions opposing yours 'moronic, arrogant and egotistical' you are saying that anyone not agreeing with your opinion, falls into that category. And that you have no respect for any opinion but your own..... All I ask is that it is debated without the sledging.

Helmets save lives/injuries it's as simple as that, It is also against the law Not to wear one.
So people that refuse to wear a helmet are ignoring basic safety and consider themselves to be above the law, How would you describe someone who does this?
We all see people doing Stupid moronic unsafe antics behind the wheel on the roads and highways and "moronic, arrogant and egotistical" would be the very least we would think or speak of these people, Usually it's dickhead or ****wit that first comes to mind.
What is So different about people that refuse to wear a helmet on a pushbike?

[Gordie]

Helmets save lives/injuries it's as simple as that, It is also against the law Not to wear one.
So people that refuse to wear a helmet are ignoring basic safety and consider themselves to be above the law, How would you describe someone who does this?
We all see people doing Stupid moronic unsafe antics behind the wheel on the roads and highways and "moronic, arrogant and egotistical" would be the very least we would think or speak of these people, Usually it's dickhead or ****wit that first comes to mind.
What is So different about people that refuse to wear a helmet on a pushbike?I am not going to bore people by going around in circles on this one my dear mr trout....you win this one...I have confessed...I refer you to post #55[thumbsupbig]

[JoeFriend]

I think it's fair for people, who choose to opt out from Medicare, not to wear helmet or to do whatever they want....If they will not use public health system.... Including ambulance

Because I surely don't want to pay for a preventable 30days hospilation in ICU.I disagree, if you choose to not wear a helmet, regardless of whether you are covered by Medicare or private health you should not be covered by either.

The reason being is the majority of people in private health insurance do so because if we don't, we are taxed more. I for one don't see why my insurance rates should go up or benefits reduced to foot the bill of a bunch of inconsiderate people who put their own comfort first.

It's really not that hard to put a lid on, and considering governments force cyclists to use the road instead of having our own infrastructure (and the policing of parking/pulling into cycle lanes with scant regard for anyone actually using them is non-existant, don't even get me started on pedestrians) then we need to keep the laws.

[Mick_Marsh]

Please, do not turn this into a cyclists vs the world thread. This was not it's intention.
If you want one of those, start your own.

Also, please read the first post and the link. For those that post up "the helmet saved my life when I sprinted off a downhill bush track into a tree" have totally missed the point of the thread.
I put it to you, if you are cycling in a large city's CBD or on shared pedestrian/cycle areas at 70km/h, you are cycling irresponsibly with complete disregard to the road rules and other users of the space you are sharing.

If you bother to read the linked article, you will realise this thread is about the use of helmets when using a bicycle sharing scheme.

From the article:

"There are people that indicate that having a helmet is a barrier to them riding a bike — they don't like to wear them, they see it as inconvenient," he said.

"Certainly when it comes to things like bike-sharing schemes it has proved to be quite challenging. People don't want to use a previously used helmet, they also don't want to carry around a helmet with them all the time in case they decide to use a bike-share scheme."

[weeds]

Please, do not turn this into a cyclists vs the world thread. This was not it's intention.
If you want one of those, start your thread :

It’s more like the world v cyclist......maybe the world butt out and leave the thread to cyclist.

[trout1105]

Regardless of if you are riding a Rented bike or your own the exact same Safety and legality issues apply it makes NO difference whatsoever, NO helmet NO ride.

[weeds]

I think it's fair for people, who choose to opt out from Medicare, not to wear helmet or to do whatever they want....If they will not use public health system.... Including ambulance

Because I surely don't want to pay for a preventable 30days hospilation in ICU.

Really.....what percentage of Medicare do you reckon cyclist take??...sweet **** all compared to the rest of society.

[Gordie]

Yes Mick, I was about to comment that we all had gone off on a tangent...me included! The article actually asks whether the mandatory use of helmets is saving enough lives to compensate for the amount of people not taking exercise on a bike because of helmet laws, which would be beneficial to general health.

[weeds]

In regards to the actual article.....there are two chances of the laws getting relaxed.

Buckles and None

[rick130]

I wonder what if there is any data the Europeans have on head injuries from cycling?

AFAIK we're the only country in the world where its compulsory to wear a helmet while cycling.

A friend has moved back to Germany (a large uni city in the north) and she says hardly anyone drives to the shops, work, etc, they either cycle or bus, even in winter but no one wears a helmet unless going for a big ride, e.g. exercise.
The lack of congestion due to the reduced traffic in town may skew results.

Living where I am now I'm seriously thinking of buying a town bike to go to the shops, cafe, etc and I'm not sure I'd throw the helmet on for those little trips yet I've worn one every time I've jumped on a bike over the last seventeen years.

[martnH]

Really.....what percentage of Medicare do you reckon cyclist take??...sweet **** all compared to the rest of society.Proportion doesn't matter.

You misread my post.
What I have said is cycling without helmet should not be covered by Medicare as it is what economist call moral hazard.
These guys (cycling without helmet) increase their risk of getting injury while not be made to pay a higher premium for insurance for such risk.

This is also why motor sports event will (I guess) require additional insurance because of perceived increased risk....

If shared bikes can be ridden without helmet, then the company offer such service should insure it's costumer for potential injury....

[weeds]

Proportion doesn't matter.

You misread my post.
What I have said is cycling without helmet should not be covered by Medicare as it is what economist call moral hazard.
These guys (cycling without helmet) increase their risk of getting injury while not be made to pay a higher premium for insurance for such risk.

This is also why motor sports event will (I guess) require additional insurance because of perceived increased risk....

If shared bikes can be ridden without helmet, then the company offer such service should insure it's costumer for potential injury....

Not at all, you’re saying people that don’t follow rulz, Instructions it the law shouldn’t be covered.

I reckon bike riders would be in the lower percentage.

[Eevo]

those that dont wear a helmet, if they have an accident and have a head injury, should they have to pay for their medical bills?

[austastar]

those that dont wear a helmet, if they have an accident and have a head injury, should they have to pay for their medical bills?Hi,
Helmet or not, unless a vehicle is involved and on a gazetted road (fault is not an issue in Tas), there is no help with medical with medical expenses apart from what ever health insurance you hold. Same as smokers or others who indulge in what are considered not healthy activities.

Vehicle drivers not wearing seat belts or involved in carrying out a crime at the time are not covered either.

Cheers

[Eevo]

Hi,
Helmet or not, unless a vehicle is involved and on a gazetted road (fault is not an issue in Tas), there is no help with medical with medical expenses apart from what ever health insurance you hold. Same as smokers or others who indulge in what are considered not healthy activities.

Vehicle drivers not wearing seat belts or involved in carrying out a crime at the time are not covered either.

Cheers


ah yes, good point, i forgot that didnt apply to cyclists. , but you knew what i meant.

[Gordie]

Hi,
Helmet or not, unless a vehicle is involved and on a gazetted road (fault is not an issue in Tas), there is no help with medical with medical expenses apart from what ever health insurance you hold. Same as smokers or others who indulge in what are considered not healthy activities.

Vehicle drivers not wearing seat belts or involved in carrying out a crime at the time are not covered either.

CheersWow...a bit of common sense...I think I will move to Tas. Here in SA we look after the wrong-doers and criminals. They have rights you know.

[rick130]

Ok, I'll throw this out there.

I think I remember seeing a link to a study once that showed the overall health benefits to society encouraging greater participation to ride sans helmets outweighed the (potential) costs of injuries.

It's crazy, we a have an overall climate that is more conducive to ride than Europe yet the antipathy and outright hatred towards it means very few do.
Even Canberra, the riding capital of Oz is nothing compared to most European cities according to my friend. (she lived in Canberra for over two years)

[Mick_Marsh]

I think I remember seeing a link to a study once that showed the overall health benefits to society encouraging greater participation to ride sans helmets outweighed the (potential) costs of injuries.
That is sort of what they are on about in the article linked from the first post.
That is why I started this thread. I think there is a damned good argument for making helmets optional for some situations.

[trout1105]

That is sort of what they are on about in the article linked from the first post.
That is why I started this thread. I think there is a damned good argument for making helmets optional for some situations.

I have to disagree as you can get exactly the same amount of exercise when wearing a helmet on a bike as you would by not wearing one.
I understand that attracting new participants to bike riding is important But why would anyone want to put someone at risk by offering a service where helmets are not required, If you think about it the casual or new rider would be in more need of a helmet due to their inexperience.
BTW there are Many other pursuits and activities that will keep you healthy other than riding a bloody push bike [thumbsupbig]

[DiscoMick]

Bike clubs couldn't get insurance for illegal activities like riding without a helmet so that won't happen.

[Mick_Marsh]

I have to disagree as you can get exactly the same amount of exercise when wearing a helmet on a bike as you would by not wearing one.
I understand that attracting new participants to bike riding is important But why would anyone want to put someone at risk by offering a service where helmets are not required, If you think about it the casual or new rider would be in more need of a helmet due to their inexperience.
BTW there are Many other pursuits and activities that will keep you healthy other than riding a bloody push bike [thumbsupbig]
And you can get exactly the same amount of exercise on one of these with even less inherent dangers.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2018/02/692.jpg
I don't like where this is heading.

[Mick_Marsh]

Bike clubs couldn't get insurance for illegal activities like riding without a helmet so that won't happen.
Read the first post.
It's not about bike clubs or illegal activities.

[CraigE]

Proportion doesn't matter.

You misread my post.
What I have said is cycling without helmet should not be covered by Medicare as it is what economist call moral hazard.
These guys (cycling without helmet) increase their risk of getting injury while not be made to pay a higher premium for insurance for such risk.

This is also why motor sports event will (I guess) require additional insurance because of perceived increased risk....

If shared bikes can be ridden without helmet, then the company offer such service should insure it's costumer for potential injury....

And I get and agree with your sentiment. Could you imagine turning up to a motorcycle race and refusing to wear a helmet as you disagree with it. You would not be allowed to race, no insurance would cover you and likely spend a few days in an institution. This would even be the result at any bicycle race. There is no difference between the two or even domestic cycling to the shop.
Each to there own, you choose not to use a safety device that is legislated, then so be it, your decision, but there are consequences for your action and if the worst happens (and I sincerely hope it does not to anyone including those who elect to not wear on) then you should be held accountable for your actions and decisions with mandated fines and bills for all the medical costs. The disturbing thing is people can make claims on the extra govt insurance levy we all pay even when they are negligent by not abiding the law by wearing a helmet.

[Tins]

Having worked in healthcare, I can say that the cost of patients in ICU for a few weeks with traumatic head injuries far exceeds the revenue raised from fines.


Quite likely true, but irrelevant really. Fine revenue doesn't go into Motor Accident Trauma. That is the purview of the various authorities, such as the TAC in Vic. Except, of course, that cyclists aren't paying a TAC or equivalent fee, so then it comes back onto the Medicare, or in some cases Private Health, system. Fine revenue is a line item in every State Budget, and States don't fund Health, the Feds do. States merely 'manage' it.

[bee utey]

Quite likely true, but irrelevant really. Fine revenue doesn't go into Motor Accident Trauma. That is the purview of the various authorities, such as the TAC in Vic. Except, of course, that cyclists aren't paying a TAC or equivalent fee, so then it comes back onto the Medicare, or in some cases Private Health, system. Fine revenue is a line item in every State Budget, and States don't fund Health, the Feds do. States merely 'manage' it.

Except they mostly do on the car they aren't driving at the moment they're cycling. Until a per km charge is levied on every road user all users contribute something through the taxation system.

[Eevo]

Except they mostly do on the car they aren't driving at the moment they're cycling.

but if you come off your bike, your not covered by that system. you would get the hospital bill.

[DiscoMick]

Read the first post.
It's not about bike clubs or illegal activities.Shared bike schemes such as the one in Brisbane could be in insurance trouble if they allowed a person to hire a bike without requiring a helmet and that person suffered a head injury which might have been prevented by wearing a helmet, since it is illegal to ride a bike without a helmet. A big compensation claim could result.
Also, if a biking club allowed participants to ride without a helmet the club might be held to be negligent for promoting an illegal activity resulting in injury, disability or death. Again, a big compensation finding could bankrupt the club.

[Mick_Marsh]

Shared bike schemes such as the one in Brisbane could be in insurance trouble if they allowed a person to hire a bike without requiring a helmet and that person suffered a head injury which might have been prevented by wearing a helmet, since it is illegal to ride a bike without a helmet. A big compensation claim could result.
Also, if a biking club allowed participants to ride without a helmet the club might be held to be negligent for promoting an illegal activity resulting in injury, disability or death. Again, a big compensation finding could bankrupt the club.
But, it wouldn't be illegal.

And a bike club would not be involved.

Have another read of the article.

[DiscoMick]

The original story is about bike-sharing in the ACT. And currently helmets are compulsory so not wearing a helmet is illegal. If the ACT Government tried to make not wearing a helmet legal it could get interesting. The government might be unable to get public liability insurance for its bike-sharing scheme, or the premiums might skyrocket because not requiring helmets would increase the risk of injury and compensation claims.

[trog]

Every time I get to Byron bay I am amused to see the majority of cyclists helmet free. Last time I was there I asked about this. The common response was that the police were to turn a blind eye so as not to have the tourists from abroad get upset and go elsewhere. Wonder if this is true ?

[Gordie]

Every time I get to Byron bay I am amused to see the majority of cyclists helmet free. Last time I was there I asked about this. The common response was that the police were to turn a blind eye so as not to have the tourists from abroad get upset and go elsewhere. Wonder if this is true ?Bicycle helmets are very low on police priorities. They are usually too busy with more important matters. To add to that, in this state, anyone under 16yo can not be issued with an infringement notice, so it is hardly worth their time to 'pull over' a kid on a bike.

[AndyG]

Tassie has now for many years had legislation requiring cyclists to wear helmets, regardless of speed or location.

Skate-boarders, quad-bike riders, and any other powered cycle riders are all required to wear them too.

And not an old builder's safety helmet either. Must be either a bicycle helmet, or a motor-cycle type.


The guy that presents our tv news has just recently returned to the screen. He took a tumble from his mountain bike, landed awkwardly and broke his neck. His helmet prevented brain damage.
After a stint in hospital, months of re-cuperation, some weeks just on radio, he is now back on the tellie.
One Peter Gee, (used to cover sport for Vic ABC TV) now swears by the use of helmets.


If you have taken a tumble and survived while not wearing one, you are indeed very lucky. Maybe you even suffered a minor fracture and don't know it. Go get things checked even now. Might explain the eye-strain/headaches, stiffness.

Is irrational purchasing of old landrover a symptom, in which case ?.....

[DiscoMick]

Do you need to wear a helmet in an old Land Rover?

[Gordie]

Do you need to wear a helmet in an old Land Rover?I have a 3 inch scar on the forehead from the dash of a SI which says you do!!! [bigwhistle]

[AndyG]

Do bicycle share operations provide a helmet, or is it byo

[AndyG]

I have a 3 inch scar on the forehead from the dash of a SI which says you do!!! [bigwhistle]

Maybe some surplus helmets from biggles would be appropriate for series drivers

[Mick_Marsh]

Every time I get to Byron bay I am amused to see the majority of cyclists helmet free. Last time I was there I asked about this. The common response was that the police were to turn a blind eye so as not to have the tourists from abroad get upset and go elsewhere. Wonder if this is true ?
Sounds plausible.

[scarry]

I have a 3 inch scar on the forehead from the dash of a SI which says you do!!! [bigwhistle]

Completely off topic......[biggrin]

I still have a massive scar in the top of my right arm from the window that popped out of the rubber of the S1,as the vehicle decided to lay on its side.(that was about 45yrs ago)[bigsad]

Back to helmets,i do a lot of riding,mainly on trails.

I generally have a helmet all the time.Not only is it a safety device,but it puts the magpies,kookaburras and butcherbirds off.

My thoughts are a helmet should be on all the time while on a bike.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[trout1105]

Every time I get to Byron bay I am amused to see the majority of cyclists helmet free. Last time I was there I asked about this. The common response was that the police were to turn a blind eye so as not to have the tourists from abroad get upset and go elsewhere. Wonder if this is true ?

Do they also turn a blind eye to Marijuana use as well so as not to put off the visitors from certain States in the US and from Amsterdam?

[trog]

Do they also turn a blind eye to Marijuana use as well so as not to put off the visitors from certain States in the US and from Amsterdam?

Or allowing smoking in the casino for the high rollers ? One rule for the plebs another for the dollar. At least Byron isn’t far to go for a visit !

[rick130]

Do they also turn a blind eye to Marijuana use as well so as not to put off the visitors from certain States in the US and from Amsterdam?Naa, that's only in Nimbin. ;)

Which is a lovely one hour drive into the hills west.

[DiscoMick]

Naa, that's only in Nimbin. ;)

Which is a lovely one hour drive into the hills west.Last time I pulled up in Nimbin I had barely opened the door and my feet were still in the car when a bloke asked, "Wanna buy some dope? "

[rick130]

Last time I pulled up in Nimbin I had barely opened the door and my feet were still in the car when a bloke asked, "Wanna buy some dope? "I feel somewhat put out.
I've never been offered anything anytime I've been there, not even a hash cookie!!

[trout1105]

A Mate of mine had a property a few K's out of Nimbin and the Missus and myself stayed there for 3 weeks, Beautiful part of the country.
I spent quite a few enjoyable afternoons at the pub and after a couple of days the offers of MJ stopped as they realised I wasn't interested.
I found the locals to be extremely friendly and helpful and I had a fantastic time whilst I was there also the pies at the bakery were really really good [thumbsupbig]

[trog]

Seems I missed their Aus, NZ ride on the weekend . Apparently it was held in most capital cities here and NZ , to reform the mandatory helmet laws for adults. From what I have been able to gather it went without arrests or fines handed out. Hopefully I will find out in advance when the next ride is . Maybe there is hope we can catch up with the rest of the world.

[mick88]

Maybe this will answer the question.

Cheers, Mick.

[trog]

IT seems like one of the early supporters of the mandatory helmet laws are wondering if it is the right thing.
Change Australia’s helmet laws and let people decide | Bicycle Network (https://www.bicyclenetwork.com.au/newsroom/2018/10/31/change-australias-helmet-laws/)

[Don 130]

I have to admit - I thought that this thread was initially about something else... [bighmmm]

:eek2:

Aardvark

[Arapiles]

IT seems like one of the early supporters of the mandatory helmet laws are wondering if it is the right thing.
Change Australia’s helmet laws and let people decide | Bicycle Network (https://www.bicyclenetwork.com.au/newsroom/2018/10/31/change-australias-helmet-laws/)

My understanding was that someone who was anti-helmet got themselves elected to BN and then ran a "consultation" which, surprise, surprise, concluded that helmets should be optional. They appear to have ignored the expert evidence of the trauma surgeons who responded to the consultation and provided their view that helmets saved lives.

Edit: it says "60% of bike riders called for change":

- they mean that 60% of respondents supported no helmets, not 60% of cyclists: so even in this case it was only line-ball - that's hardly a ringing endorsement.
- what proof did they have that anyone who responded was actually a cyclist? This used to be a pet issue for a non-cyclist that I used to work with, on the basis that he hated the nanny state generally.

[loanrangie]

I think that if you ride on the road a helmet should be mandatory, on a bike trail or in a park then optional.

[Eevo]

freedom of choice and acceptance of consequences.

[bee utey]

I think that if you ride on the road a helmet should be mandatory, on a bike trail or in a park then optional.

The trouble is that most bike trails cross roads, or follow them for some distance. I reckon it's either mandatory everywhere or it isn't. And falling off on a downhill dirt trail can do you as much damage as being knocked off on a sealed road by a car cutting you off.

[martnH]

Impossible in a socialist nation.

Why would I , as the tax payer, pay the healthcare bill for someone's stupid act

I think it's fair If one, when he choose not to wear helmet, not to wear safety belt, or not to follow road rules, will waive their Medicare entitlement to any healthcare cost that may incurr as a result.

In the future with the technology development, it's actually quite possible tpmoNitor people's micro decisions.

No helmet? Not a problem? Just pay the medical bills 100% out of pocket. Hotel cost alone at any Aussie hospital is around $1500 per night.
Can't pay? Not a problem just declare bankruptcy


freedom of choice and acceptance of consequences.

[Eevo]

Why would I , as the tax payer, pay the healthcare bill for someone's stupid act



we do it all the time.

[trog]

If it is such a great piece of world class legislation, why after all these years haven’t other nations taken it up with such zeal ?

[Arapiles]

If it is such a great piece of world class legislation, why after all these years haven’t other nations taken it up with such zeal ?

South Australia was the first place in the world to give women the vote - would you have done away with that because no-one else had at the time? Similarly with our healthcare system, pensions/superannuation, education system .... we do it differently, but that's OK, and is why The Economist devoted a special issue to Australia last week. Their theme was how we did things differently - and better. Australia was labelled the most successful developed economy and a leader in social issues.

My point is this - just because we're doing something that other countries aren't doesn't mean that we're getting it wrong. The argument that we should just copy other countries smacks of the cultural cringe.

Edit: and the Economist finally conceded that compulsory voting - which is nearly unique to Australia - was actually a good thing, that meant that we had avoided a lot of the political and social issues plaguing the US and the UK.

[biggin]

Having a government instruct their people how to live is not new, but I know that’s what most of you prefer.
If you want to wear a piece of plastic on your head, go for it.
Now, where’s my cotton wool.

[LRJim]

If pushbike helmets don't do enough to protect you maybe they should change the laws to make you wear a motorbike helmet. How's that for a spanner in the works.
Cheers Jim

[trog]

Neck brace and bubble wrap too !

[bee utey]

Bicycle helmets are designed to do two main things. One is to cushion your scone from a vertical fall of around 1.5m to 2m to hard ground, like when you fall off after a wheel slide. This vertical contact speed is around 15 to 20km/h. The second is to provide a low friction surface to allow your head to slide along the pavement and not twist and break your neck. It is NOT designed to allow you to to crash head first into stationary objects (or vehicles moving towards you) at high speeds and survive. Wearing a motor cycle helmet is pointless unless you spend all your time at typical motorcycle speeds.

And if you do silly things like add a go-pro mount to your bike helmet you risk skull damage and a broken neck if the mount catches on the ground as you fall. Better off with the camera on your handle bars.