D4 sway when towing heavy caravans

[DiscoChris]

136784Hello Guys,

I am new to this forum and I hope I am posting this query in the right forum.

I bought my LR D4 in 2012. I have had a lot of fun with it 4wd in the Victorian High Country, taking it across the Simpson Desert (twice) without issues.

I have recently ventured into caravanning having purchased our 2014 Evernew E900 in November last year. I am looking for feedback on towing.
In my first trip out to Barwon Heads, I experienced unnerving sway when I exceeded about 80/85kph. In my second trip out (to Moonambel), I rebalanced my load putting more weight on the Draw Bar and experienced significant improvement. However on the return trip with empty water tanks and very windy conditions I again experienced significant sway. My friends towing a similar caravan behind a popular Japanese 4WD with anti sway / load levellers,felt no sway.

I am told that Anti Sway/Levelling devices are counter intuitive to the D4 Air Suspension and therefore are not recommended.

I do believe that the nose of the draw bar might be about 40mm too low and so that will be my next adjustment but while I expect some improvement, I am not expecting it to be significant.
Does anyone have any suggestions for minimising sway when towing ~3000kg? Your advice much appreciated.

[Tombie]

Hello and welcome..

Balance is essential. If you haven’t got that van level to the vehicle you’ll be on the back foot.

You’ll need to be methodical here.

Tyre pressures on D4 and Van
Ball weight
Van loading (where and how)
Design of your particular van plays a big part.

[Tombie]

And check - where are your water tanks..
If you empty them you need to redistribute the load..

There are significant numbers on here towing big gear without issue..

The Jap brigade with their WDH/AntiSway gear really are rubbing bandaids to poor designs...

[Tins]

Tombie is 100% bang on in both posts. It isn't the car, it's the load it is towing. The D4 is a magnificent tow vehicle.

Without wanting to start another turf war, everyone needs to learn about load distribution before they should be allowed to tow anything.

[Chops]

G'day Chris (?),

As the guys say, loading,,, looking at your picture, although it could be an illusion due to where you've parked, the front of the van seems to be substantially lower at the front. When on flat ground, the van should be sitting virtually level.
We tow a new New Age 21' van 3.2t loaded, and I had to buy a new tongue to suit, re height, but it tows beautifully in all conditions.

My wife who's 5' nothing is about to tow the van some 1500 Klms. Although probably a bit nervous because I wont be in the car, feels quite safe in doing so, and if I thought there was going to be any difficulty or danger, I wouldn't ask her to do it.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

With that much distance from tow hitch to front van axle it shouldnt sway in a hurricane,,,,

Tyre pressure on the van isnt a load thing,, its to stop the sidewalls flexing, (which is the first part of a van that "sways")

[Graeme]

Don't forget that the van's front tyres need to be a little softer than the van's rear tyres. You might want to get the van's wheel alignment checked too if it has independent suspension.

[Fatso]

When you get the nose up a bit and if not much inprovemnt , then loading/ball weight and tyre preasures need to be explored .

Evernew build a good design and mt or full tanks should not come into play all else being equel .

Weight distribution usualy only counter ,s vans too heavy for the tug or bad loading , the EAS on the D4 will automaticly adjust the tug height front and rear to its propper position .

I fliped my tow hitch upside down to get extra height on my towball and was enough to get the van in a slightly nose down position .

[Kandy]

Weight distribution is critical no matter what fancy distribution gear you use . The D4 needs none, but, weight distribution is still important. Invest in tow ball weight scales, around 50 - 70 $, that number when you use one i.e say about 190kg -200kg should be less than 10% of the total weight of the van loaded with all the crap we carry around. I had sway once when forced off the road by uncle Tom in his hay truck on a small country road and coming back on from the soft to bitumen with a bitumen ridge caused sway and blow me down all this brake stuff started happening ( similar to electronic terrain response ) and smoothed out beautifully. The D4s anti sway works, something else is a problem. Cheers[smilebigeye]

[bobk]

Agree with everyone else re weight distribution. From my experience I would recommend that you start with ensuring the van is level and you have at least 10% on the ball. Have been towing a van with 2008 D3 for almost 10 years now and believe that these are the two most important basic requirements to hassle free towing.
Cheers

[bobnsue]

We have a disco 4 and tow a lotus Trooper. No sway problems. As has previously been stated it is about the loading and set-up of your caravan. I always make it a rule, where possible to travel with full water tanks. (we have three). Load distribution is what has the greatest effect on sway.

[Muddy Diver]

Agree with most of what is being said here except (sorry) different pressures in front and rear tyres on the caravan. I tow with a D4 (2700kg) and have worked in the caravan industry for some years now and have never heard of this. Asking at work I'm told that this is actually something which most people would say could induce a sway!

My additions are to load only lightweight gear in the overhead cupboards. Load your heavy items over the axles low down. Match your tyre pressures to that figure which should be listed on your caravans compliance plate. (this, if present, will however give you the pressure at Tare weight so van empty of stuff and will need lifting to include your load). Disco pressures should be up to max load running (unless proceeding onto dirt roads when they should be reduced by a margin for puncture resistance - same as your caravan)..

Did you buy the van second hand? If so, I advise buyers to take it to a weighbridge when completely empty of all personal belongings, Water and Gas. (Tare condition) and weight it. Many previous owners add generators on the rear bumper along with extra water tanks grey water tanks etc which, unless the van is re engineered, weights changed by Manufacturer, new compliance plate obtained and blue slipped (NSW) will eat into your payload. So when you think you have the normal 400Kg of payload you don't and the van is suddenly overloaded.

Ball weight - if your van is 3000Kg then the recommended ball weight for a stable tow (obviously fully loaded now) is 270Kg - 300Kg. As previously mentioned a ball weight gauge can be purchased and used to check this weight easily. Your LR4 is OK for 350Kg and yes. Dont use anti sway. They are not just recommended but outlawed from LR.

Does your van have any added (since manufacture) weight on the rear bumper? This would be a no-no for some van designs. Rear end weight is popular but acts a s a pendulum weight on the rear which makes things sway. Here is a video I used to show my customers when they ask me to make the van with a lower ball weight Trailer weight distribution - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jk9H5AB4lM)

You mentioned that you towed in windy conditions and I'm sorry to say you should expect sway if very windy. There's nothing the trailer stability program can do to stop the wind blowing against 12 sq/M of caravan wall. Its just going to move and you would normally feel this.

If you have checked all of this and are happy then it could be down to caravan layout design (although Evernew know what they are doing) so I would look into this last. However, you might consider fitting an ESC kit to the van. Alko make one and these can be installed aftermarket for around $1300. Last resort as its a cost thing and may/may not help you.

Good luck

[Steve Francis]

Really good question for the newbies like me. We have swapped over from the "other side" and are extremely happy with our decision. About to set up the D4 to tow a Trakmaster - 16'6" with dual axles. I have purchased an adjustable tongue but not yet fitted it. Hopefully the systems in place will handle all issues once the height is right. We have a tow ball scale so adjustment of weight should not be an issue. Thanks for raising the issue.

[Tommy Armstrong]

That's one of the best videos I've ever seen to explain trailer sway. Thankyou for posting it.

[Jaybee]

136784Hello Guys,

I am new to this forum and I hope I am posting this query in the right forum.

I bought my LR D4 in 2012. I have had a lot of fun with it 4wd in the Victorian High Country, taking it across the Simpson Desert (twice) without issues.

I have recently ventured into caravanning having purchased our 2014 Evernew E900 in November last year. I am looking for feedback on towing.
In my first trip out to Barwon Heads, I experienced unnerving sway when I exceeded about 80/85kph. In my second trip out (to Moonambel), I rebalanced my load putting more weight on the Draw Bar and experienced significant improvement. However on the return trip with empty water tanks and very windy conditions I again experienced significant sway. My friends towing a similar caravan behind a popular Japanese 4WD with anti sway / load levellers,felt no sway.

I am told that Anti Sway/Levelling devices are counter intuitive to the D4 Air Suspension and therefore are not recommended.

I do believe that the nose of the draw bar might be about 40mm too low and so that will be my next adjustment but while I expect some improvement, I am not expecting it to be significant.
Does anyone have any suggestions for minimising sway when towing ~3000kg? Your advice much appreciated.

After initially using the LR supplied hitch with a 150mm riser I ditched all of that and ended up installing (easy DIY job) a Mitch Hitch with a normal tow bar tongue that is so much better. Setting the van level I measured the height of the tow coupler (DO35) from the ground and purchased a new tow bar tongue to match the same height. This worked perfectly on last years 20,000km trip through the centre.

Your van looks nose down in the pic, although that may be an illusion, best to rely on measurements.

[DiscoChris]

Hi all,

I would like to thank you all for your input and feedback to this discussion. It is very much appreciated and certainly helps set my direction. FYI, My actions will be as follows;
1. I believe the van is sitting a little low at the front so I will get a hitch that will allow me to lift it to a level height.
2. I have bought a draw bar weight gauge so that when I get the van onto flat ground, I can check the draw bar weight
3. Dexter Stability Control will be fitted to the van later in the month (only as a protection measure - no expectation that this will fix the problem)
4. I will put more weight over the axles
5. While everything in the van looks to be factory fitted except 2 slide draws in the front boot – these are very sturdy and look heavy – I may need to remove these. I will make this determination when I have an accurate reading of draw bar weight.
6. Finally, I will endeavour to get the van to a weighbridge so I can better understand my weights.

Thanks to Muddy Driver for comprehensive commentary and the video link – very helpful
Thanks to Jaybee – I will go for the Mitch Hitch

Again I thank you all for your feedback. It is particularly pleasing that you all have full confidence in the Discos as a tow tug. I would rather fix levelling and weight distribution in the van than replace My LR. I particularly liked Tombie’s comment “The Jap brigade with their WDH/AntiSway gear really are rubbing bandaids to poor designs...”

I will post my results as I work through this problem so that others may benefit. This might take me a couple of months. (I want to resolve this before June 1st when we are planning a trip to the North West).

Cheers
Disco Chris

[discovery4]

We have a disco 4 and tow a lotus Trooper. No sway problems. As has previously been stated it is about the loading and set-up of your caravan. I always make it a rule, where possible to travel with full water tanks. (we have three). Load distribution is what has the greatest effect on sway.

Hi Bobnsue,

We also have a 19' Lotus Trooper tare 2800 (not checked) so we expect we are close to 3500 when fully laden. Tow ball weight is right on 350kgs. We have 18" wheels and Bridgestone LT 265/60R18 Bridgestone AT 697 tyres on our 2013 SE 3.0 Discovery. I would be interested to know what length is your Trooper, what is your towball weight and what tyre pressures do you run?

Thanks in anticipation.

Kind regards
Bob

[Pedro_The_Swift]

That video must be a wonderful sales asset,,
pity its all wrong.[bigwhistle]

next time you walk outside look at where the van wheels are in comparison to the overall length.

They are NOT in the middle. by percentages, nowhere near it.
and physics tells us the longer the disntance from tow hitch to front axle the more stable the tow is.
For a few years vans were built with the axles well back from the vans centre,, must have towed like a dream,,
if your tug could handle the amazing ball weights this design came with..

Everything in towing caravans is a compromise.



I am totally convinced after reading posts in here and talking to owners the d4 is the best tug in OZ.

[LuckyLes]

That video must be a wonderful sales asset,,
pity its all wrong.[bigwhistle]

next time you walk outside look at where the van wheels are in comparison to the overall length.

They are NOT in the middle. by percentages, nowhere near it.
and physics tells us the longer the disntance from tow hitch to front axle the more stable the tow is.
For a few years vans were built with the axles well back from the vans centre,, must have towed like a dream,,
if your tug could handle the amazing ball weights this design came with..

Everything in towing caravans is a compromise.



I am totally convinced after reading posts in here and talking to owners the d4 is the best tug in OZ.

I agree that the D4 is a very good tow vehicle, but that doesn't make the video referred to wrong.
Where the axle is situated on a caravan is determined by the interior design. The biggest single factor involved is the position of the kitchen.
Vans with centre kitchens will have the axles further forward than vans with a rear kitchen. It is the manufacturers way of balancing the van correctly. My 20ft Franklin has the kitchen in the middle, (stove top, oven, and large fridge) and the axles are quite close to centre. It tows fine when loaded correctly. If you have a look at the axle in the demo it is moveable. If the van is loaded correctly for it's design then sway should not be a problem, providing tyre pressure, and all of the other little things including driving style are correct.
Towing a caravan requires a certain amount of skill and common sense. The skills, including how to load the van, and how to set up the tow vehicle correctly, can and should be learned by doing a course on towing a caravan. The common sense part may not be as easily acquired if it is not already there. This is one of the reasons that caravaners have such a bad name IMO. The demonstration of the skills required to tow an object as heavy as or heavier than the tow vehicle should be compulsory before the van is even taken from the caravan yard.
Good luck with it
LuckyLes

[cripesamighty]

The trailer model is totally adjustable and used as a demonstation tool. There is another video kicking around on YouTube where the wheels have been adjusted to sit further back.

[Hugh Jars]

Apart from the other comments on the video, it’s hardly a typical representation. The car has a fixed pivot point at the front, which is nothing like a typical vehicle combo. It’s exacerbated by the ‘sway’ induced by the impractical trailer all the way through that single point.
It’s a video designed to sell stability devices to people who may not need them.
It also doesn’t take into account the trailer stability programs available today.

[DI5CO]

It’s a video designed to sell stability devices to people who may not need them.
It also doesn’t take into account the trailer stability programs available today.

Lol we had the guy from Hardings Caravans who originally posted the video, here at our 4wd meeting as we speak. Nothing was mentioned about selling sway control but purely to show how ball weight or lack of it can affect the sway. He actually said that load is more important than the sway control and that the esp systems won’t fix sway problems. So I don’t know where you heard that from, but it was probably uncle bobs mate from the 3rd marriage who is the Eddie the expert in nothing.
They usually do 2 or so major insurance repairs a year due to sway and the 1st thing they do when they get them in is to weigh the ball weight and in most situations it’s the low ball weight that has caused the accident.
Yes the video is not “a perfect representation “ but it’s an easy way to show how important load distribution is.
Dave.

[DiscoMick]

Thanks for the interesting video.

Can I ask what might be a typical low ball weight that might cause sway?

[DI5CO]

Can I ask what might be a typical low ball weight that might cause sway?

Typically the ball weight is approx less than 10% of the ATM (or your loaded weight). That’s not to say 9% will cause sway. It’s not an exact science to this and that’s why there are so many arguments regarding this lol.
Sway “normally” happens at 100kmh or more. European caravans are fairly light weight and ball weights are approx 5%, this is why they are limited to 100kmh and lots of European cars have light ball weight limits.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Not many other countries tow 3T vans either,,,
and certainly not on 285 x 85 x 16's:o

[MickM]

I have a 3.0Ltr D4 (230,000Klms) towing an SLR off-road c/van (3.5T all-up) for about 60,000Klms, probably 45,000Klms bitumen, the rest on dirt through Great Central Rd, Cameron’s corner, Strezleki, Flinders ranges Cape York etc. I have fitted a Mitch Hitch to ensure the van is level when travelling. I have found tyre pressures on the D4 and c/van are important.
I have used Coopers LTZ and now use Duratracs and run 50 PSI rear and 45 Front when towing on tarmac and decrease to 35 PSI rear and 30 on the front and C/van when on dirt/corrugated roads. Using this combination I have not noticed any sway and have not had a tyre failure from either manufacturer (I do have a TPMS system for the D4 & C/van)
As my van has LED lights I have fitted a resistor (which can be switched in and out when towing) in the indicator circuit so the D4 registers that a C/van is being towed.
I have 3 water tanks and use them from front to rear to balance the towball weight and find no difference in the vehicle response/activity as the water is used.
I have found the D4 to be a great tow vehicle and suggest that looking at your original photo I think using a Mitch Hitch will be good start to levelling your C/van and get you going in the right direction to stop swaying with the van.
MickM

[Lake Tyers Beach Fossil]

coChris;2779477]136784Hello Guys,

I am new to this forum and I hope I am posting this query in the right forum.

I bought my LR D4 in 2012. I have had a lot of fun with it 4wd in the Victorian High Country, taking it across the Simpson Desert (twice) without issues.

I have recently ventured into caravanning having purchased our 2014 Evernew E900 in November last year. I am looking for feedback on towing.
In my first trip out to Barwon Heads, I experienced unnerving sway when I exceeded about 80/85kph. In my second trip out (to Moonambel), I rebalanced my load putting more weight on the Draw Bar and experienced significant improvement. However on the return trip with empty water tanks and very windy conditions I again experienced significant sway. My friends towing a similar caravan behind a popular Japanese 4WD with anti sway / load levellers,felt no sway.

I am told that Anti Sway/Levelling devices are counter intuitive to the D4 Air Suspension and therefore are not recommended.

I do believe that the nose of the draw bar might be about 40mm too low and so that will be my next adjustment but while I expect some improvement, I am not expecting it to be significant.
Does anyone have any suggestions for minimising sway when towing ~3000kg? Your advice much appreciated.[/QUOTE]

[Lake Tyers Beach Fossil]

I have had many years experience towing with Disco including Cape York Telegraph road with Kimberley Kamper trailer and Later touring with Kimberley Karavan using Disco 2 Currently have 2016 Disco 4 with 3.2 t Legend off-road caravan At all times the weight distribution is paramount Always put generator in vehicle and check ball weight with scales. Remove anti sway bars as they are counter productive. Haymen Reece recommendation includes removal “when going onto dirt road” which defeats the purpose of off road driving.Always drive with water tanks full as they help with the manufacturers design.Have had no sway issues with current set up and the self leveling disco always make towing easy and Disco 4 so much better as tow vehicle than Disco 2....have fun but make certain you pack your van carefully

[Muddy Diver]

Apart from the other comments on the video, it’s hardly a typical representation. The car has a fixed pivot point at the front, which is nothing like a typical vehicle combo. It’s exacerbated by the ‘sway’ induced by the impractical trailer all the way through that single point.
It’s a video designed to sell stability devices to people who may not need them.
It also doesn’t take into account the trailer stability programs available today.

This video is not used for selling anything but is used to freely educate newcomers to towing as to the intracacies or consequences of loading yout trailer incorrectly. The principles are the same wherever you place the wheels and how many axles. Just take your caravan out and try it for yourself....if you dare![bigwhistle]

[Muddy Diver]

coChris;2779477]136784

I have recently ventured into caravanning .[/QUOTE]

Not wanting to sound critical here but one thing to learn is that given certain conditions, caravans will sway. These are not limited to causes such as poor loading, lightweight on towbar, speed, windy conditions, erratic driving (Sudden direction changes for example), road surface conditions, Caravan to Car weight ratio. Simply put I guess I just wanted to point out that the caravan will always be felt behind you. Outback or offroad caravans are the worst and despite everyone coming back saying that theirs is OK I mean relative to road going vans. Their suspension is designed to allow more movement than std Leafsprings and therefore will roll more in corners and take longer to "settle".

If you have sway when towing with a D4 there is a reason for it which you should be able to identify reading through this thread as the D4 is widely accepted as one of the best tug you can own.

[Milton477]

With that much distance from tow hitch to front van axle it shouldnt sway in a hurricane,,,,

Tyre pressure on the van isnt a load thing,, its to stop the sidewalls flexing, (which is the first part of a van that "sways")

During the design on my van I was given some pearls of wisdom. One of these was to ensure that there was more body surface area forward of the axles than behind to aid stability. The Op's van looks perfect in that regard. Along with the distance from the hitch to the first axle, this van 'looks' like it should tow extremely well, even in a hurricane.

When we talk about sway, it is impossible to quantify. One person's mild sway might be another's white knuckle ride. As noted by an earlier poster, all vans move around behind the tow vehicle, just what is sway & not natural movement has to be learned by experience with the van/tug combination.

I used to tow my van with a D2. Sway or severe moving around was always a feature. Every time a truck passed in either direction, the van moved, when the wind blew, the van moved. I won't even talk about the porpoising, sea sickness inducing motion induced by some of the roads we travel. But all of this became the normal feel of the tow & never felt like it would spiral out of control. It was never affected by water/lack thereof in tanks.

Enter the D4. Same van, packed the same, same generator & spare wheel on the rear bar. Same stuff in the D4 boot as was in the D2 boot. The D4 absolutely owns the van. It's a totally different feel. Passing trucks have little effect in either direction, same for the wind, little effect. Still a bit of porpoising on undulating surfaces but nowhere near that of my D2.

Looking back, the D2/van was my white knuckle ride & the D4/van is just plain boring in comparison. So to the OP, if your ball weight is around the 10% mark & tyres are inflated sensibly, is your van swaying or just moving around as it naturally does?

[DiscoChris]

Hi All,

update to my sway problems.

I replaced the LR hitch with a hitch supplied by Hardings.
I have also put new Cooper tyres (18") on the LR.
Wheel alignment on all LR and Van wheels.
Ensured even weight distribution with heavier items low in the van.

There was a 100mm difference in height between front and back of the Van. The new hitch removed the difference so that the van is now level.

I have just returned from a trip to Cobram (from Melbourne) as a final run before we head for the Kimberlys in 2 weeks.

HOOORRAAAAY - No sway at on the trip up. I managed to take the Van up to 110kph without any issue. (Not that I will be normally travelling at that speed - fuel consumption starts to climb rapidly). But it is good to know that you can get to that speed if you need to.

I emptied the water tanks for the return trip to see if there was any difference. Largely the same though I felt a very small sway from a bit of wind as I approached Melbourne. This was not a concern as it was minor and nothing like my earlier "white knuckle" experiences.

I believe that most of the improvement came from the new hitch.

Thanks for all your feedback.

[DiscoMick]

Levelling the van was also a good move, I think.

[Milton477]

Glad you have sorted the problem. Thanks for letting us know.