WHEN THE RIVERS RUN DRY.....

[ramblingboy42]

No, not the Midnight Oils, but some of our Australian Rivers , especially the Darling.

I have just finished reading about two different river diversion schemes , namely the CLARENCE RIVER SCHEME and THE BRADFIELD SCHEME.

Both schemes have water storage/diversion/power generation ideas of great merit but have been given the bum's rush because of costs and logistics.....but we built the Snowy , didn't we?

I would be very interested to hear what some have to say about either of the schemes as they were actually proposals and not just pipe dreams.

It is easier to google them yourselves as there are many links to these of varying support from lobbyists and political groups as well.

Please make responses factual not political, love to see your thoughts.

[DiscoMick]

The problem with diversion of coastal rivers to run inland is they would screw up the coastal rivers and environment, but have dubious benefits inland.

[trout1105]

The rivers in Australia only run intermittently and any sort of diversion or storage upstream will eventually destroy the wetlands and the estuarine environments via low water flows or pollution from irrigation.
Leave our rivers alone and use other alternative energies.[thumbsupbig]
The water management on the Murray is a bloody joke, So not a good idea to bugger up our other river systems.

[JDNSW]

For the last hundred and fifty years these schemes have appeared every few years, usually when, as at present there is a drought. They almost always are created by city based dreamers, equipped with small scale maps.

There are several serious problems with any such scheme.

1. Probably kills most of them right off - cost. Moving water across the divide involves either long distance tunnelling or long distance pumping. Both are incredibly expensive ways to move water in large quantities. Worth noting that the Snowy scheme makes use of the highest and steepest spot along the dividing range, leading to short tunnels, and gradients sufficient for realistic hydropower, as well as the ability to build relatively cheap storage dams.

2. Loss of water due to evaporation. Nearly all the inland rivers have very low gradients, so water moves slowly. This together with relatively high temperatures, leads to high evaporation losses. Cuts into the economics of the whole scheme.

3. Environmental effects. The Snowy scheme has been forced to return substantial amounts of water back to the coast - and if it were being designed today, would have to return a lot more, greatly reducing its effectiveness.

[jonesfam]

I know of 1 plan, bought up from time to time, to turn the Gulf Rivers inland or across the Range.
Also some plans to dam them? This 1 amuses me, it's kind of flat around here.

Now, at the moment an awful lot of nice fresh water is flowing out these rivers into the Gulf & to stand on the banks of the Nicholson & watch it you do think what a waste.

But, if these rivers didn't do this there would be less prawns, less Barra, our water table would drop & who knows what would happen to the Great Artesian Basin?

We have stuffed up enough I think.

SWMBO reckons every new or renovated house (no matter where it is) should have to have a rain water tank. The bigger the house or more bedrooms then the bigger the tank.

Sounds like a better idea than trying to turn rivers around.

Jonesfam

[V8Ian]

I know of 1 plan, bought up from time to time, to turn the Gulf Rivers inland or across the Range.
Also some plans to dam them? This 1 amuses me, it's kind of flat around here.

Now, at the moment an awful lot of nice fresh water is flowing out these rivers into the Gulf & to stand on the banks of the Nicholson & watch it you do think what a waste.

But, if these rivers didn't do this there would be less prawns, less Barra, our water table would drop & who knows what would happen to the Great Artesian Basin?

We have stuffed up enough I think.

SWMBO reckons every new or renovated house (no matter where it is) should have to have a rain water tank. The bigger the house or more bedrooms then the bigger the tank.

Sounds like a better idea than trying to turn rivers around.

Jonesfam
The maps would have to be redrawn. We would have an island up and down, Tassie to the south and Doner Island north. [bigsad]

[JDNSW]

Exactly. The Gulf rivers carry a lot of water, but diverting that south would involve vast earthworks or tunnels running hundreds of kilometres or huge pumps and hundreds of kilometres of large diameter pipes.

And you raise another point. The upper reaches of the inland rivers lose a lot of water through their bed. Guess where this goes. Right! Into the artesian basin aquifers, and we really don't want to mess with that, although I seem to remember some schemes to pump water from coastal rivers to injection wells into these aquifers. Again, once you start to work numbers, the costs get ridiculous.

[Tombie]

But the benefits outweigh costs long term.

[PhilipA]

SWMBO reckons every new or renovated house (no matter where it is) should have to have a rain water tank. The bigger the house or more bedrooms then the bigger the tank.
Doesn't that happen in other states?

It is certainly the law in NSW.
Not bigger for bigger but a minimum of AFAIR 5000Litres with a ball valve to maintain the level from town water if it gets low.
many houses run the toilets from the tank although I don't think it is law.
Regards Philip A

[Tombie]

There’s a lot of councils that won’t approve tanks for potable use anymore..

[donh54]

But the benefits outweigh costs long term.

Not really.

When the Great Barrier Reef dies because of the diversion of the "wasted" river flows on Qld's east coast, what will the Greenies say?

When what's left of our fishing industry goes broke because of the loss of the mangroves in the estuaries, and the only fish you can buy in the shops is Basa (Vietnamese Catfish), what will the housewives say?

When the Great Artesian Basin dries up even further than what it is now, what will all the western graziers say?

When all the small towns out west hanging on by the skin of their teeth shut down, because the graziers have left due to the Basin drying up, and now you have to carry everything you need for a trip across the Simpson, all the way from the East Coast (including water and fuel), what are all the 4wdrivers and grey nomads going to say?

The pumping and/or earthworks costs, allied with the evaporation rates out west, makes it even less sensible than allowing politicians to vote on their own wage rises!

[Mick_Marsh]

If we were really interested in restoring flows to the Murray Darling river system, the first thing we would do is run a backhoe through the Cubby Station evaporation dams.

[donh54]

If we were really interested in restoring flows to the Murray Darling river system, the first thing we would do is run a backhoe through the Cubby Station evaporation dams.

Cubby only takes what they are licensed to harvest, when the flood flow reaches a certain height. The Water Board (whatever their name is this week) sold the irrigation licenses. That's who you should be aiming your backhoe at! [bigwhistle]

[Tombie]

Not really.

When the Great Barrier Reef dies because of the diversion of the "wasted" river flows on Qld's east coast, what will the Greenies say?

When what's left of our fishing industry goes broke because of the loss of the mangroves in the estuaries, and the only fish you can buy in the shops is Basa (Vietnamese Catfish), what will the housewives say?

When the Great Artesian Basin dries up even further than what it is now, what will all the western graziers say?

When all the small towns out west hanging on by the skin of their teeth shut down, because the graziers have left due to the Basin drying up, and now you have to carry everything you need for a trip across the Simpson, all the way from the East Coast (including water and fuel), what are all the 4wdrivers and grey nomads going to say?

The pumping and/or earthworks costs, allied with the evaporation rates out west, makes it even less sensible than allowing politicians to vote on their own wage rises!

Obviously you’re not looking at the same study and proposal I did....

Nothing to do with taking all the excess flow, and requires even more be taken into account than just flow out a river...

[jonesfam]

Cubby only takes what they are licensed to harvest, when the flood flow reaches a certain height. The Water Board (whatever their name is this week) sold the irrigation licenses. That's who you should be aiming your backhoe at! [bigwhistle]

Why do we even grow cotton in Australia?
Seems silly to me that on the driest continent we grow 1 of the most water hungry crops.
Same goes for rice.

I'm not a farmer but these things just don't make sense to me.

Surely we can at least be efficient with the water we have?

It's like kangaroo, we should be growing & harvesting & promoting Roo meat for humans.
Native animal, environmentally friendly, perfectly adapted to the country & bloody good eating.


Just my thoughts.

Jonesfam

[donh54]

Why do we even grow cotton in Australia?
Seems silly to me that on the driest continent we grow 1 of the most water hungry crops.
Same goes for rice.

I'm not a farmer but these things just don't make sense to me.

Surely we can at least be efficient with the water we have?

It's like kangaroo, we should be growing & harvesting & promoting Roo meat for humans.
Native animal, environmentally friendly, perfectly adapted to the country & bloody good eating.


Just my thoughts.

Jonesfam

The investment in earthworks and pumps etc for the irrigated cotton farms is staggering. Every single drop of water that goes through their system has a cost attached. They don't "waste" any of it - that would be (literally) pouring money down the drain!

Australia is roughly 3 times more efficient at growing cotton than other countries, and a significant portion of that cotton is dryland - not irrigated.

Cotton farming directly employs around 10,000 people in Qld and NSW. (Roughly 3 times the number employed by grazing or cropping enterprises).

Cotton is a major commodity, representing from 30 to 60 percent of the gross value of the total agricultural production in Australian regions where it is grown (source: Australian Grown Cotton Sustainability Report, 2014)

Cotton is one of Australia’s largest rural export earners and helps underpin the viability of more than 152 rural communities.

As far as the Kangaroos go, I totally agree with you. We eat roo at least once a week, sometimes more often.

[Ancient Mariner]

I am sure a lot of people in Ingham Halifax area with just there nose above water watching there crops destroyed businesses and homes inundated wouldn't mind abit of Herbert river flow diverted but anything Bob Nutter endorses is bound for failure[bighmmm]


AM

[PhilipA]

Why do we even grow cotton in Australia?

It is because cotton is one of the most profitable crops to grow and one of few that can sustain corporate investment.
Back in the 2004 drought when I worked for NSW Agriculture I was tasked by a moron who shall not be named to shift the growers of cotton to other crops mainly to save water.

I duly prepared a lot of projections and held meetings in Moree to show them the benefits of growing oranges among other things.

The meetings went silent when I showed them the projections that they would make no money from oranges for about 4 years and not have a full crop for 5 at least.

There is a BIG difference between an annual cropper and an orchardist.

Similarly projections for growing other stuff was received in the same way.
Cotton is king.
The rule of thumb is that farmers are not silly. They go (and grow) where the money is.

Regards Philip A

[Larry]

No, not the Midnight Oils, but some of our Australian Rivers , especially the Darling.....................

I think you mean Hunters & Collectors. [wink11]

[vnx205]

There’s a lot of councils that won’t approve tanks for potable use anymore..

I know the reasons for it, but I can't help being amused by the fact that what was once considered the best drinking water is now used to flush the toilet.

When I lived in Narrabri in the early 70s, most people had three taps over the kitchen sink: hot, cold and drinking. The drinking water came from a tank.

I believe that some councils make it compulsory to connect the tank to the toilet and optional to connect it to the washing machine.

[rick130]

I know the reasons for it, but I can't help being amused by the fact that what was once considered the best drinking water is now used to flush the toilet.

When I lived in Narrabri in the early 70s, most people had three taps over the kitchen sink: hot, cold and drinking. The drinking water came from a tank.

I believe that some councils make it compulsory to connect the tank to the toilet and optional to connect it to the washing machine.And it's still that way in the bush, I know that's how I plumbed my old house 6 or so years ago and all my neighbors drank tank water too.

[DiscoClax]

Tank water for us is the only water we've had for the last 15 years. No choice. But just love it :) Nothing better... the kids have grown up big and strong and the dentist reckons their teeth are as good as he's seen.

[jonesfam]

Tank water is great, grew up on it.
Good teeth because of the frog pee!
Our shower was under the tank & directly from it with a bit of corrugated around the tank stand posts.
Bit cold in winter but good pressure when the tank was full.

That's another question, why aren't tanks on stands any more, no need for a pump?

Jonesfam
PS I stand corrected on the cotton thing.

[austastar]

That's another question, why aren't tanks on stands any more, no need for a pump?
.

Hi,
Maybe better and consistent pressure as well as not having to use large bore pipes.
One place we stayed at with gravity tanks had 1 inch plumbing. Not much pressure, but lots of flow.

Cheers

[trout1105]

I have 3 x rainwater tanks and I only use it for drinking and cooking, Our other water needs are catered for with bore water, We have the 3 taps in the kitchen.
I am not so sure that the water collected on City roofs would be as clean as the water in my tanks as I live 30K's from town and that is why some Councils cover their arses by Not allowing rainwater to be classified as "Potable", many Minesites do the same.

However just because you can't use rainwater for drinking in the city doesn't mean it is a bad idea to have rainwater tanks there.
If everyone could use rainwater for the garden, washing machine, cleaning the car and the dunny in the City it would make a massive difference. [thumbsupbig]

[DiscoMick]

Our Maleny house has tanks and we're going to put in a bore.
I read that most people only drink less than five per cent of the water they use, so why should it all be treated to drinking standard? We survived three years in Bangkok, where you don't drink the tap water, just fine. I used to buy 20 litres of drinking water for 30 cents! There was a water filtration business in every village.

[carjunkieanon]

As far as the Kangaroos go, I totally agree with you. We eat roo at least once a week, sometimes more often.

We served up Kangaroo steaks to some guests on Saturday night. They were a family new to Australia so I figured I'd give them our national animal on a plate. Cooked them well too.

They were from Zimbabwe and Botswana. He said when I offered him the roo. "I've eaten elephant, giraffe, and lion, wildebeest, warthog, sure. I'll try kangaroo". I felt somewhat humbled.

[austastar]

I read that most people only drink less than five per cent of the water they use, so why should it all be treated to drinking standard?

Travelling down the Darling River run we noticed many places had treated and untreated water taps. The difference was very noticeable and must save a lot of unnecessary and expensive processing.
Cheers

[trout1105]

We served up Kangaroo steaks to some guests on Saturday night. They were a family new to Australia so I figured I'd give them our national animal on a plate. Cooked them well too.

They were from Zimbabwe and Botswana. He said when I offered him the roo. "I've eaten elephant, giraffe, and lion, wildebeest, warthog, sure. I'll try kangaroo". I felt somewhat humbled.

Maybe you guest was a Poacher back in Zimbabwe /Botswana, I am pretty sure that the Elephants and lions are protected there.[bigwhistle]

[350RRC]

Maybe you guest was a Poacher back in Zimbabwe /Botswana, I am pretty sure that the Elephants and lions are protected there.[bigwhistle]

Maybe it was roadkill...............[bigrolf]

DL

[DiscoMick]

We served up Kangaroo steaks to some guests on Saturday night. They were a family new to Australia so I figured I'd give them our national animal on a plate. Cooked them well too.

They were from Zimbabwe and Botswana. He said when I offered him the roo. "I've eaten elephant, giraffe, and lion, wildebeest, warthog, sure. I'll try kangaroo". I felt somewhat humbled.Roo is quite tough and low-fat, so I like it marinated in something tasty.

[PhilipA]

I have had Zebra, antelope, wildebeest, and warthog at a Brai in Namibia.

The antelope was particularly tasty.

Trouble was the silver backed Jackals wanted to join the party, and would have been on the table if I hadn't thrown some rocks at them.
Regards Philip A

[trout1105]

Maybe it was roadkill...............[bigrolf]

DL

I would think that anyone who killed an elephant with their 4wd would themselves become roadkill for the Lions [biggrin]

[donh54]

Roo is quite tough and low-fat, so I like it marinated in something tasty.
Casserole is the go! Guests don't recognize it [bigrolf]

[trout1105]

Put roo into sausages , rissols, stews or just enjoy the backstrap steaks, They all taste great.
The secretk is to shoot the right roo, Nobody likes to eat an old boomer..

[austastar]

Hi,
Get a small leg, rub in mustard powder, wrap this in bacon and slow cook with onions for about 3 hours.
Cheers

[trout1105]

The quality of roo meat is also determined on how it is treated after the roo is killed.
It needs to be hung at least overnight ( a few days in a cool room is ideal).
It also needs to be gutted and skinned as soon as possible as well, Just chucking them on the back of the ute and sorting them out a few hours later is a recipe for disaster.

[350RRC]

I would think that anyone who killed an elephant with their 4wd would themselves become roadkill for the Lions [biggrin]

Well it was a bit tongue in cheek............. maybe they found an elephant that had just lost a couple of molars and was having a kip.

Be interesting to taste.

As an aside, I do love roo backstraps medium rare.

DL

[Ancient Mariner]

Wot about the rivers:bat:

[AK83]

But the benefits outweigh costs long term.

Actually, I think it's the other way around!

The supposed short term benefits will almost certainly become meaningless over the long term.

One only need to look to the recent past and the monumental catastrophe that is the Aral Sea and what the long term 'benefit' would end up looking like.

Nature has always been good at maintaining a balance, and throughout human history(in it's entirety!!) has always had a propensity to destroy that balance.

Brings to mind the old saying about the definition of insanity: repeating the same processes repeatedly and expecting a different outcome!

[PhilipA]

One thing that should be remembered is that these rivers are ephemeral anyway.

There is a story about a riverboat crew mutinying and burning the boat either at Tilpa or Menindee after they had been stuck there for 2years.

The boats used to ride the floods, and at Coach and Horses campground there is a sign advising of a little side creek that the boats used to take out onto the flood plain and go something like 20 miles to pick up wool.
Seeing now there are no boats, it's probably a good thing to pump at flood times.

Apparently the Coorong used to be blocked off naturally for long periods of time before all the barrages etc were put in. If you have ever been to the ports on the Murray , you will see the piles are about 30-40 metres high. Those times will never return as the floods were destructive.

One of the problems with water allocation was caused in about 2002 when the NSW Government separated water entitlements from property, allowing water rights holders to sell ,or lease their entitlement.
Many entitlements were not utilized fully until then, but when the law was changed, obviously someone who could use the water for a profitable purpose would buy or lease water rights from their neighbours. This increased the total use of water.

Regards Philip A