Defender double cardan front propshaft

[Kidbeen]

My independent LR place suggested to the previous owner that the above be fitted to my 1995 Defender 130. It has a custom made motorhome on the back and think it may have had a lift at one stage. I am getting a noise when de-accelerating and re-accelerating in 5th gear.

I have been quoted just under $900 for a new DC front propshaft. Apparently it just bolts on without any alteration.

When I search the internet, Dwynn Lewis and Tom Woods are the ones that come up in the Google search.. However, most state that they are for Discovery 2 and TD5's. Why is that so! Why did they need to build special DC propshafts for those vehicles?

I have asked by email who is the manufacturer of the shaft they have quoted a price for and if it had grease nipples, but they failed to respond.

[bee utey]

D2's run a different output flange on the front of the transfer case to the Deefer, especially to fit the double cardan shaft. I'd imagine that if you got a second hand D2 flange fitted then a D2 shaft would just drop in.

[jboot51]

The double cardan shafts are usually only for those with greater than 50mm lift.
If the noise is only in fifth gear, maybe its the gearbox letting you know its on the way out.
Be careful with the aftermarket shafts, as some are for off road use only which usually suggests they will flog out rather quickly at highway speeds.

[uninformed]

Yes the D2 came stock with a double carden Front propshaft. Both the V8 and TD5. I believe they even have different part numbers and price, but little can be seen if any difference between the two...

I guess once LR set up the D2 they decided it needed the double carden. The actual DC joint on the genuine LR item is not greasable. I THINK they can be pulled apart and serviced but not in vehicle.

Tom Woods have a good reputation and make both D2 and Defender flange types.

[Ancient Mariner]

DC shafts:toilet:

[101RRS]

The Series 3 Stage 1 also had a DC as original but many have been replaced over the years with a "standard" driveshaft.

Garry

[mattims]

I had the exact same problem with vibration on over run and did solve it by fitting a double cardan shaft.

I ended up getting one made at hardy spicer with the defender bolt pattern as it was about the same cost as swapping flanges and getting a discovery one made, and they ended up using larger size joints than the disocvery does. Not sure if really required or not but I think my defender had a heavy duty shaft fitted previously and they guy there just didn't want to go down in size of joints even though he was pretty sure that mine was bigger than standard. I think I ended up paying around $900 to get the shaft made, they ended up reusing the front diff end of my heavy duty shaft as they said it was still in good condition.

It has solved the vibration problem, but unfortunately I cannot tell you if it will completely solve it on it's own as I also added caster correction radius arms as well (they were not enough to fix the vibration on their own, in fact probably made it worse on their own, but from my measurements should make it better with a double cardan joint).

My defender has a ~50mm lift and that with the caster correction also made my ideal shaft length about 70mm longer than standard, so a standard shaft might work but would be very close to coming apart when the suspension is at full droop. So that's another reason to look at the custom ones rather than off the shelf unless you are confident in the lift etc that has been done to your car vs just measuring between the two flanges and getting one made to suit.

[Kidbeen]

I had the exact same problem with vibration on over run and did solve it by fitting a double cardan shaft.

I ended up getting one made at hardy spicer with the defender bolt pattern as it was about the same cost as swapping flanges and getting a discovery one made, and they ended up using larger size joints than the disocvery does. Not sure if really required or not but I think my defender had a heavy duty shaft fitted previously and they guy there just didn't want to go down in size of joints even though he was pretty sure that mine was bigger than standard. I think I ended up paying around $900 to get the shaft made, they ended up reusing the front diff end of my heavy duty shaft as they said it was still in good condition.

It has solved the vibration problem, but unfortunately I cannot tell you if it will completely solve it on it's own as I also added caster correction radius arms as well (they were not enough to fix the vibration on their own, in fact probably made it worse on their own, but from my measurements should make it better with a double cardan joint).

My defender has a ~50mm lift and that with the caster correction also made my ideal shaft length about 70mm longer than standard, so a standard shaft might work but would be very close to coming apart when the suspension is at full droop. So that's another reason to look at the custom ones rather than off the shelf unless you are confident in the lift etc that has been done to your car vs just measuring between the two flanges and getting one made to suit.

"OVERRUN" is exactly when it happens. I was unsure of the term to use in my original post, but I only get the noise when it is free-wheeling down a hill in fifth gear. Don't know why the dealer won't reply to my email when I asked who is the manufacturer of the one he quoted. Maybe he thought I would try and to find it cheaper one somewhere on the web.

[grey_ghost]

I have a Tom Woods double, double cardan shaft (both ends) - as I had my 101 suspension replaced which lifted up the saggy suspension. I have been very impressed with the Tom Woods unit so far - it's essentially eliminated the horrible noises that I used to get from my front prop shaft. (101 FC are notorious for chewing out front prop shafts, but that's another story).

Cheers,
GG.

[uninformed]

DC shafts:toilet:

Why?

BTW thats not a LR output flange .... or gearbox....and youve got double bearing in that front output housing [thumbsupbig]

[Ancient Mariner]

Why?

BTW thats not a LR output flange .... or gearbox....and youve got double bearing in that front output housing [thumbsupbig]
Two outa three ain't bad [bighmmm] ,no room in the front .A 95 defender shouldn't need a DC shaft and I don't like the idear of a sledge hammer ready to pound the crap outa the gear box given half a chance. The Ford U bolt ends reduce the mass, give more working clearance and renewing a Uni is an easy job:thumbsup:

Noel

[workingonit]

[QUOTE=Ancient Mariner;2795164]T a sledge hammer ready to pound the crap outa the gear box /QUOTE]

Was it a thread on the Isuzu forum, someone went to inspect MSA boxes for sale to find bits of the casing knocked out? Makes sense in light of your comment.

Found an ebay example of the Ford u-bolt for sale, the vendor saying the 1330 and 1350 yolk to suit were also available. I'm guessing this is what you show in the photo, and at first sight it looks fragile, but I guess you wouldn't have it if it weren't stronger than the LRover set up (plus lots of free space to work on it). Is it a straight forward swap over?

Thanks for another interesting insight.

[Kidbeen]

Early this morning I sent off an email enquiring about a Tom Woods unit to Off-Road Konection - Your off-road part, accessory, wheel & tyre speciality store (http://www.offroadkonection.com.au/). No reply yet. They all say on their web sites 'contact us' but when you do they do not get back to you. Seems to be a trend not to reply and I wonder why they even bother putting 'contact us' on their web pages.

[rick130]

Early this morning I sent off an email enquiring about a Tom Woods unit to Off-Road Konection - Your off-road part, accessory, wheel & tyre speciality store (http://www.offroadkonection.com.au/). No reply yet. They all say on their web sites 'contact us' but when you do they do not get back to you. Seems to be a trend not to reply and I wonder why they even bother putting 'contact us' on their web pages.Phone them!!

The telephone is still the best way to contact a business.

Or email Tom direct.
He does answer emails, and the phone too! [emoji23]

[Kidbeen]

Phone them!!

The telephone is still the best way to contact a business.

Or email Tom direct.
He does answer emails, and the phone too! [emoji23]
Is that the business of Tom Woods? Thought his business was based overseas.

[grey_ghost]

I believe that Tom Woods is USA based... Maybe allow a day or two due to time zones...

[rick130]

Is that the business of Tom Woods? Thought his business was based overseas.Phone Jeep Konnection or if you have no joy, contact Tom directly in Utah.
He's a really nice bloke and is super fast getting product out.

[ozscott]

Phone Jeep Konnection or if you have no joy, contact Tom directly in Utah.
He's a really nice bloke and is super fast getting product out.X2

[350RRC]

Hi, Some recent experience of mine may help.

74 RRC with a 2" spring lift. Slotted the swivels 10 years ago to improve steering at speed, great mod.

Stock driveshaft, smooth as silk.

Recently swapped front whole diff out for one with maxi everything in it, along with radius arms. The new radius arms had caster correction bushes.

First thing I noticed was that the prop shaft was making contact with the crossmember. That never happened before. Put a slim tubular one in, all ok.

With the caster correction bushes the prop shaft lines up pretty well straight on with the front diff snout.

All good you might think, but no. The prop shaft angle at the front of the TC is noticeably increased, causing probs with the old crossmember.

Anyway, took it for a drive and felt the new vibes, not good. The prop shaft was in phase so I put it one spline out. Bit of an improvement, but not as good as it was with slotted swivels.

All I can say is with a 2"lift, IME slotted swivels will have the snout of the front diff pointing up about as much as the prop shaft points down from the front of the TC. i.e. roughly equal angles and just maybe less vibes.

cheers, DL

[mattims]

Hi, Some recent experience of mine may help.

74 RRC with a 2" spring lift. Slotted the swivels 10 years ago to improve steering at speed, great mod.

Stock driveshaft, smooth as silk.

Recently swapped front whole diff out for one with maxi everything in it, along with radius arms. The new radius arms had caster correction bushes.

First thing I noticed was that the prop shaft was making contact with the crossmember. That never happened before. Put a slim tubular one in, all ok.

With the caster correction bushes the prop shaft lines up pretty well straight on with the front diff snout.

All good you might think, but no. The prop shaft angle at the front of the TC is noticeably increased, causing probs with the old crossmember.

Anyway, took it for a drive and felt the new vibes, not good. The prop shaft was in phase so I put it one spline out. Bit of an improvement, but not as good as it was with slotted swivels.

All I can say is with a 2"lift, IME slotted swivels will have the snout of the front diff pointing up about as much as the prop shaft points down from the front of the TC. i.e. roughly equal angles and just maybe less vibes.

cheers, DL

yes i think with slotted swivels you are closer to correct angles for a normal shaft. with caster corrected bushes (or radius arms) you end up close to correct for a double cardan ie angle on one end and straight the other, although the tc angle is still pretty steep.. around 10-12 degrees mine ended up at which is still probably a bit more than a double cardan really wants.

[350RRC]

yes i think with slotted swivels you are closer to correct angles for a normal shaft. with caster corrected bushes (or radius arms) you end up close to correct for a double cardan ie angle on one end and straight the other, although the tc angle is still pretty steep.. around 10-12 degrees mine ended up at which is still probably a bit more than a double cardan really wants.

The funny thing is I was an advocate for slotting swivels for a lift and I've just installed what I knew was crap.

I could maybe get the slotted ones back, but this new diff is really a defender / county with raiko top swivel bushes, county cv's, and are they the same swivel balls as RRC??

cheers, DL. [bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle]

[101RRS]

Early this morning I sent off an email enquiring about a Tom Woods unit to Off-Road Konection - Your off-road part, accessory, wheel & tyre speciality store (http://www.offroadkonection.com.au/). No reply yet. They all say on their web sites 'contact us' but when you do they do not get back to you. Seems to be a trend not to reply and I wonder why they even bother putting 'contact us' on their web pages.

Why did you contact that company - they might have standard Tom Woods stuff but they do not make them.

Contact Tom Woods Driveshafts through their website. They respond

Tom Wood's Custom Drive Shafts - Tom Woods Custom Drive Shafts Custom Driveshafts Specialist (http://4xshaft.com/)

[ozscott]

I spoke to.Tom. Great bloke. Uber helpful. I told him Jeep Connection had a d2 in stock and be suggested it would be about the same price and quicker to buy from them (he would know they would restock). So I did. Great service from Jeep Connection too.

Cheers

[Kidbeen]

I crawled under to have a look at the front propeller shaft today. Have been researching tailshaft phasing and vibration on the web and it appears that my front propeller shaft (1995 Defender 130) is out of phase. Is that normal? If you want a photo I could crawl back under to get one.

[rick130]

I crawled under to have a look at the front propeller shaft today. Have been researching tailshaft phasing and vibration on the web and it appears that my front propeller shaft (1995 Defender 130) is out of phase. Is that normal? If you want a photo I could crawl back under to get one.Yes!

If it was lined up in phase it'd vibrate.

This was Land Rover's cheap arse way of not needing a DC front shaft, but it works.

The front pinion points up at the t/case basically in line with the shaft.
If the pinion angle matched the t/case output shaft angle we'd run the unis in phase.

[DazzaTD5]

Some info already noted...

*Yes Defender front shaft is out of phase (as in the CV joints arent in line with each end.
*A heavy duty DC front shaft is available from British Parts of Utah-Land Range Rover Sport LR4 LR3 LR2 Discovery Defender Freelander Genuine OEM Accessories Parts (http://www.bputah.com/)
*Have used many of these on the Discovery 2 and Defenders upto a TD5 and are bullet proof.
*Change Defender front output flange to a Discovery 2 and it will bolt on.
*Using the Discovery 2 heavy duty shaft keeps things stock within normal available parts.
*A Defender can suffer the rumbling overrun vibration after a suspension replacement/lift.
*Cant really be used on a Defender TDCi (2007 onwards) as the transfer case sits 65mm further back.

[rick130]

Daz, Tom Wood can supply his DC shaft with a Deefer flange on the DC coupling so it's a straight bolt on, no need to change to a D2 output flange. ;)

[Kidbeen]

Jeep Konection said to let them know what I require and they can get it in from Tom Woods for me.

On the other hand, Tom Woods said he can send one to me direct. He would need to know freight details and mentioned a freight forwarding agent, which I do not have. What is the best way of having it shipped from the US and I wonder what cost would be involved?

Maybe it could be cheaper from Jeep Konection as it would be sent in a bulk order to them.

Anyone with an opinion or advice?

[rick130]

Tom used UPS both times I was sent a shaft and UPS ****ed it up even though it was correctly addressed, the first one ended up in Austria.....

[Ancient Mariner]

[QUOTE=Ancient Mariner;2795164]T a sledge hammer ready to pound the crap outa the gear box /QUOTE]

Was it a thread on the Isuzu forum, someone went to inspect MSA boxes for sale to find bits of the casing knocked out? Makes sense in light of your comment.

Found an ebay example of the Ford u-bolt for sale, the vendor saying the 1330 and 1350 yolk to suit were also available. I'm guessing this is what you show in the photo, and at first sight it looks fragile, but I guess you wouldn't have it if it weren't stronger than the LRover set up (plus lots of free space to work on it). Is it a straight forward swap over?

Thanks for another interesting insight. The front is fairly simple just needs the unsplined bit turned off they are available in 1310 , 1330 and 1350 in different lengths and material .The rear I used a disc brake wich is mounted closer to the TC and needed to make a special nut so not sure what would be involved with a drum brake

AM