Head bolts - what now?

[itsme_wrk]

Hi Guys

Just putting the disco back together after doing the head and having a world of life interruptions

Got the head back on it and done the first 3 sequences to torque down the head and was dragged away for a week, came back to finish it today and setup the torque angle gauge and started cranking in order

By bolt 7, realised the angle gauge was slipping and some were 180 some may have been 200 - 220 degrees

After pulling apart the gauge it’s easy to see why, Kincrome, SP Tools and Repco don’t keyway or secure the socket to the gauge dial so when torque gets up there, it spins without incrementing.

Do I pull all the head bolts and start again, progress with final torque to 45 degrees, back them off to the 2nd stage and try again or???

Bolts are new

Rob

[Tombie]

Once you undo them they’re throw away.

[itsme_wrk]

Hey Tombie

So maybe finish the torque up and suck it and see?

Rob

[Kaaaiju]

What size socket do you need? As I used Standley 6 pointed one or 12 pointed one and three of the head bolts stripped, how do I take them off?

[rick130]

What size socket do you need? As I used Standley 6 pointed one or 12 pointed one and three of the head bolts stripped, how do I take them off?As in a rounded off hex head?

Kinchrome make a locking type socket that seems to work really well, or you could use a stud extractor if it opens up enough, they cam on, the harder you turn, the more they bite.

[discorevy]

What size socket do you need? As I used Standley 6 pointed one or 12 pointed one and three of the head bolts stripped, how do I take them off?


Not surprised they stripped, they need E sockets ( E14 specifically)

[discorevy]

Hi Guys

Just putting the disco back together after doing the head and having a world of life interruptions

Got the head back on it and done the first 3 sequences to torque down the head and was dragged away for a week, came back to finish it today and setup the torque angle gauge and started cranking in order

By bolt 7, realised the angle gauge was slipping and some were 180 some may have been 200 - 220 degrees

After pulling apart the gauge it’s easy to see why, Kincrome, SP Tools and Repco don’t keyway or secure the socket to the gauge dial so when torque gets up there, it spins without incrementing.

Do I pull all the head bolts and start again, progress with final torque to 45 degrees, back them off to the 2nd stage and try again or???

Bolts are new

Rob

I'd be buying 7 new bolts , but you might be OK to back off to stage 2 depending on how far you actually went ,
Whatever you do always mark the bolt head with a fine paint pen before doing the angle stages in the same relative spot ( eg front of the flange on the bolt head all facing forwards ) so you know with a glance which ones are done

[itsme_wrk]

I'd be buying 7 new bolts , but you might be OK to back off to stage 2 depending on how far you actually went ,
Whatever you do always mark the bolt head with a fine paint pen before doing the angle stages in the same relative spot ( eg front of the flange on the bolt head all facing forwards ) so you know with a glance which ones are done

Thanks for that, new complete set of bolts ordered, should be here tomorrow.

Remove all, replace, re-torque in sequence or just one by one?

Trying to avoid having to lift the head off again, engine has not been started.

Rob

[Pippin]

Thanks for that, new complete set of bolts ordered, should be here tomorrow.

Remove all, replace, re-torque in sequence or just one by one?

Trying to avoid having to lift the head off again, engine has not been started.

Rob
ALLWAYS in sequence by the book.

[discorevy]

Back off the ones you angled wrong first, one by one by 180 degress in reverse sequence ,then back them all off by 90 , getting back to stage 2 on all of them , then replace with the new bolts, one by one in sequence back up to stage 2 , omitting stage 1 , this will keep even tension on the head also keeping the gasket crushed, don't forget to mark the bolt flanges before the last stages.

[Pippin]

Back off the ones you angled wrong first, one by one by 180 degress in reverse sequence ,then back them all off by 90 , getting back to stage 2 on all of them , then replace with the new bolts, one by one in sequence back up to stage 2 , omitting stage 1 , this will keep even tension on the head also keeping the gasket crushed, don't forget to mark the bolt flanges before the last stages.
Sorry for butting in Discorevy.
Nick

[DeanoH]

This may be a bit late to help you now but here's an alternate method of tightening the head bolts.

Step 1. Throw the angle gauge into bin where it belongs. These things are truly the spawn of the devil :firedevil:

Step 2. Tighten head bolts to second stage ie 65 Nm

Step 3. Mark cylinder head and bolt head as shown using an indelible marker.

139807

Step 4. Tighten head bolt a further 90 degrees, the correlation between the marks should now look like this.

139808

Step 5. Tighten the head bolt a further 180 degrees, the correlation between the marks should now look like this.

139809

Step 6. After adding the last 45 degrees it should now look something like this.

139810


The idea is to use the 'pattern' of the bolt heads 60 degree segments to torque the head down correctly.

There are several benefit of doing it this way.

1/. You don't lose count of which bolt you're up to as you have a visual reference of the state of torque on each bolt.

2/. No external angle gauge required which can be a PITA to use and keep correctly calibrated.

3/. Very easy to pick up where you left off if distracted/called away/unable to complete in one hit.

Deano :)

[101RRS]

Just put ARP studs in - a lot better, safer and easier to do - and reusable.

[discorevy]

Just put ARP studs in - a lot better, safer and easier to do - and reusable.

It's not a v8 , even if ARP did make studs for a td5 ( which they don't), you would have to pull the engine to remove the head or remove the studs, defeating part of the benefit.

[discorevy]

Sorry for butting in Discorevy.
Nick

You weren't butting in Nick , especially when you have relevant info, just in this case it's important to keep even torque over the head and also to keep crush on the gasket

[101RRS]

It's not a v8

Oh Ok - would have been helpful to have been given that information in the first post - does help answer the question. I wonder how many answers were based on the thought it was a V8.

If replacing bolts on a TD5 without removing the head then if ARP studs were available then you could do the same.

garry

[Tombie]

Oh Ok - you might have given that information in your first post - does help answer the question. I wonder how many answers were based on the thought it was a V8.

If you are replacing bolts on a TD5 without removing the head then if ARP studs were available then you could do the same.

garry

No Garry. You couldn’t... because you wouldn’t be able to lift the head off whilst the engine was in situ.

The bolts are about a foot long!

[101RRS]

Thanks - I know nothing of the TD5 - if I had known it was a TD5 I would not have commented.

Cheers

Garry

[BennehBoy]

It's not a v8 , even if ARP did make studs for a td5 ( which they don't), you would have to pull the engine to remove the head or remove the studs, defeating part of the benefit.

ARP don't make studs for TD5. There is a company in the UK that will however, T&K precision - they used to make them to order for a middle man (don't know who) who sold them on to a now shut down business, Chesterfield Race Diagnostics.

I had a set made up, they are stupid money and probably complete overkill in spec ( ~800 quid inc VAT! ), but a fool and his money are easily separated or I wouldn't own a landrover.

Anyhow, you CAN fit these without pulling the engine - undo the bottom gearbox mount bolts and jack up the gearbox to tilt the engine forward, rubber mallet on the scuttle panel creates some extra wiggle space after lifting off the weather strip - no damage incurred.

Some photos (copied this from my D2BC vehicle thread):

Gave the deck a clean
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2018/05/20.jpg


Started to fit the studs but got rained off - undoing the gearbox mounts and jacking the gearbox up rotated the block enough so that the head could lift on over the studs
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2018/05/21.jpg


Slight hickup whilst fitting the exhaust manifold, one of the studs sheared - luckily it rotated out when tapped with a punch
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2018/05/22.jpg


Got all the studs wound in - I cut a slit in an old head bolt and used that as a thread chaser
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2018/05/23.jpg


Head lifted on with help of an engine crane borrowed from a mate (Cheers Chris!) - much easier to locate the head with the studs.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2018/05/24.jpg


Nuts torqued down to 70lb ft in 3 stages 30, 50, 70 - used ARP Ultra Torque lube.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2018/05/25.jpg

Due to the large size of the nuts on the studs, the oil shield on the rocker cover needs some minor mods - between the bits that wrap under the injectors are some ears that need bending outward to accommodate the bolts. Without doing this the rocker cover won't sit correctly.

[BennehBoy]

PS, the studs are not keyed so it would be VERY difficult to fit these with the head in situ.

PPS, jacking the gearbox may be less successful for folk that have the acoustic cover in place - mine doesn't.

[discorevy]

Geez, BennehBoy, cheers for that info , don't think I'll be fitting those , what was the reasoning for fitting and was it T&K precision who calculated 70 ft lb for the final setting ?.( personally don't think this is enough if your running a big map / big boost ) , is that an Allisport manifold ?, I'd be replacing all the manifold studs as it's only a matter of time before others will snap. My opinion only

[BennehBoy]

Geez, BennehBoy, cheers for that info , don't think I'll be fitting those , what was the reasoning for fitting and was it T&K precision who calculated 70 ft lb for the final setting ?.( personally don't think this is enough if your running a big map / big boost ) , is that an Allisport manifold ?, I'd be replacing all the manifold studs as it's only a matter of time before others will snap. My opinion only

Well, here's the thing, T&K 'just make them to spec', they don't know what the torque values should be.

I inquired exhaustively in the UK and hit a brick wall of either ignorance or reluctance to supply any torque settings. I've gone with what's least likely to strip the block threads based upon a considered best estimate looking at ARP values for similar stud lengths and most importantly numbers.

The idea was to see how I get on and increment in 10lb feet if I see signs of HG failure/bypassing.

So far all is well, and I've ragged it quite hard. The map which is on is AFR based and is chucking in 85mg of fuel, so it's quite hefty.

Vehicle has a hybrid turbo (billet chra), turbosmart actuator, providing ~25psi of boost, allisport manifold (brilliant bit of kit), allisport full length intercooler, 3 BAR MAP, Solid flywheel with uprated clutch and plate, full stainless semi straight through exhaust, and a Provent.

PS Reasoning for fitting was simply 'because I can' - I bought them before I switched to the AFR remap, the previous injection timing map was creating far more boost due to the fuel being chucked in behind the receding pistons and created unnecessary exhaust, heat, and stress on the haed/gasket.

[BennehBoy]

Geez, BennehBoy, cheers for that info , don't think I'll be fitting those , what was the reasoning for fitting and was it T&K precision who calculated 70 ft lb for the final setting ?.( personally don't think this is enough if your running a big map / big boost ) , is that an Allisport manifold ?, I'd be replacing all the manifold studs as it's only a matter of time before others will snap. My opinion only

So I've upped the torque to 90lb ft, had some exhaust gas in the cooling system after thrashing it - not happening after increasing the torque. I had deliberately kept the initial setup conservative with the intention of nipping it up progressively anyway.

[discorevy]

So I've upped the torque to 90lb ft, had some exhaust gas in the cooling system after thrashing it - not happening after increasing the torque. I had deliberately kept the initial setup conservative with the intention of nipping it up progressively anyway.


I hope its not a case of shutting the gate after the torque's have bolted ........or something like that[tonguewink]

[BennehBoy]

Nah, all seems good now. I knew it might be a voyage of 'discovery' so have a spare HG just in case.

[Bohica]

Similar to my car when I work something out. It is a voyage of discovery too.