Swivel housing on my 1971 2A, what's with these raiko bush bolts

[JohnboyLandy]

Hi All,

I'm working on the front hubs / swivels now, and up to trying to undo the bolts at the top of the swivel housing, and I noticed two curious things :
1. There are bolts on one side, and what appear to be studs on the other (see pics)
2. Both the bolt and nuts on studs appear to be metric (18mm)

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How could this be ? swivels from newer (S3 ?) model ? and why studs on one side ?

Also, the stub axle on drivers side is not willing to come out, any ideas on how to persuade it to freedom ?

Any info welcome.

Cheers,
John

[gromit]

Are you assuming Metric because a metric spanner fits ? 3/8" Whitworth maybe.

I've seen them with studs both sides and studs one side and bolts t'other side. Probably a difference between Series II and Series III.

Stub axles do tend to rust in place and are difficult to remove. Hide mallet or block of wood and a big hammer.



Colin

[JohnboyLandy]

Thanks Colin,

Yeah assuming metric as the head is exactly 18mm, and it's sits between two imperial sizes, 11/16 and 3/4 from memory. I haven't managed to get the bolts out yet, so not sure what the thread is.

Hopefully after I get the swivel housing off I'll be able to get a better handle on the stub axle.

Cheers,
John

[Dgd69]

Thanks Colin,

Yeah assuming metric as the head is exactly 18mm, and it's sits between two imperial sizes, 11/16 and 3/4 from memory. I haven't managed to get the bolts out yet, so not sure what the thread is.

Hopefully after I get the swivel housing off I'll be able to get a better handle on the stub axle.

Cheers,
John

I just rebuilt mine used 18mm to undo bolts and nuts and used rubber mallet to tap stubs off they were on there good as wellhttps://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2018/05/29.jpg

[gromit]

Thanks Colin,

Yeah assuming metric as the head is exactly 18mm, and it's sits between two imperial sizes, 11/16 and 3/4 from memory.



The Imperial sizes you mention are AF whereas there are a few bolts that were never changed from BSF threads which have Whitworth heads. I'm not sure what the thread actually is but I can check tonight.

Convert,compare all Imperial tool,nut,bolt and spanner sizes to metric. (http://www.baconsdozen.co.uk/tools/conversion%20charts.htm)

3/8" Whitworth is 18.03mm across the flats so an 18mm spanner will fit.

Another chart covering spanner sizes, this one mentions Land Rover gearboxes ! Spanner Jaw Sizes (https://www.sat.dundee.ac.uk/psc/spanner_jaw.html)

[JDNSW]

According to my parts books, both S2a and S3 had BSF, but these came in two sizes - 7/16 and 3/8, and both studs and bolts were used, although the S3 book shows only bolts.

Presumably any given vehicle would have started life with the same on both sides!

The thing to note with these swivels is that one of the four studs on the steering lever (not the top railco) is a special stud that is a tight fit in the hole in the lever, and should go back in the same hole.

[Cap]

Damn, must be the time of year as I am doing both my swivels as well. I have the nuts/studs and bolts configuration as well.

On the topic, has anyone used the bearing that comes with the kit? I ordered the kit but have read that the bearing quality is not very good, so it is recommended to use the original if still in good condition.

[JohnboyLandy]

Thanks everyone for the feedback, and the links to the extra info Colin.

Hey Carlos, I'm trying to ramp up my rate of progress, just that darn work thing gets in the way :-) Maybe I'll over take you soon !!

Have a great long weekend everyone, three days of Land Rover fun.

Cheers,
John

[Bigbjorn]

Thanks Colin,

Yeah assuming metric as the head is exactly 18mm, and it's sits between two imperial sizes, 11/16 and 3/4 from memory. I haven't managed to get the bolts out yet, so not sure what the thread is.

Hopefully after I get the swivel housing off I'll be able to get a better handle on the stub axle.

Cheers,
John

Are you sure it is not just poms being perfidious Albion. They were champions at coming up with odd bolt and thread configurations. MG did this for decades with BSW heads on metric threads. Right up until they became BMC'ified with the MGA. Struck a fair bit of it in ship repair with odd bits of pom made machinery in engine rooms. Pumps, steam up and downers etc. Threads that did not match the heads or giant studs with odd threads on one end. Great fun when you are up to your bum in bilge water and waste oil and wondering what the FH is this thing.

[JDNSW]

Are you sure it is not just poms being perfidious Albion. They were champions at coming up with odd bolt and thread configurations. MG did this for decades with BSW heads on metric threads. Right up until they became BMC'ified with the MGA. Struck a fair bit of it in ship repair with odd bits of pom made machinery in engine rooms. Pumps, steam up and downers etc. Threads that did not match the heads or giant studs with odd threads on one end. Great fun when you are up to your bum in bilge water and waste oil and wondering what the FH is this thing.
Morris (remember MG used Morris engines!) started manufacture of cars with White and Poppe engines, but changed in 1914 to imported Continental engines. This came unstuck with a combination of the UK deciding to impose heavy tariffs on car parts in 1919, and Continental deciding Morris was not big enough to continue production of that model motor.

Meantime, Hotchkiss has moved their factory from France to Coventry in 1914 to avoid Germans, but by 1919 the demand for machine guns had dropped dramatically, and they offered to buid engines for Morris, producing a close copy of the Continental engine. But since all their machinery and tooling was metric, so were all the threads in them, but for convenience of mechanics, they had Whitworth spanner sizes. In about 1926, Morris bought Hotchkiss' UK factory, and reorganised it to make more engines. Hence, Morris engines all had metric threads but Whitworth spanner sizes until the rationalisation that followed the BMC merger - presumably the tooling and machinery was getting well used and outdated by then anyway. (A somewhat similar history lies behind the fact that the DeHavilland Gipsy series of aero engines also had metric threads but Whitworth hexagons!)

[Bigbjorn]

Morris (remember MG used Morris engines!) started manufacture of cars with White and Poppe engines, but changed in 1914 to imported Continental engines. This came unstuck with a combination of the UK deciding to impose heavy tariffs on car parts in 1919, and Continental deciding Morris was not big enough to continue production of that model motor.

Meantime, Hotchkiss has moved their factory from France to Coventry in 1914 to avoid Germans, but by 1919 the demand for machine guns had dropped dramatically, and they offered to buid engines for Morris, producing a close copy of the Continental engine. But since all their machinery and tooling was metric, so were all the threads in them, but for convenience of mechanics, they had Whitworth spanner sizes. In about 1926, Morris bought Hotchkiss' UK factory, and reorganised it to make more engines. Hence, Morris engines all had metric threads but Whitworth spanner sizes until the rationalisation that followed the BMC merger - presumably the tooling and machinery was getting well used and outdated by then anyway. (A somewhat similar history lies behind the fact that the DeHavilland Gipsy series of aero engines also had metric threads but Whitworth hexagons!)

Yes, I knew about the Hotchkiss connection. The Morris/Hotchkiss OHC engine used in the mid-twenties had a poor reputation but it was what they had so it went into the first MG's. MG marketing people tried to disguise their engine's humble origins by putting MG branded cast camshaft cover, side plates, oil filler and falsely describing the dimensions. They published the bore size as different to what it was to make potential customers think it was MG's own engine. Thus confusing a couple of generations of repairers.

[gromit]

There are a few Land Rover bolts that didn’t get changed from Series I to Series III.
Axle drive flange bolts were always BSF for example.
i’m sure the swivel hub bolts are also BSF but I’ll have to check.

Colin

[gromit]

On the topic, has anyone used the bearing that comes with the kit? I ordered the kit but have read that the bearing quality is not very good, so it is recommended to use the original if still in good condition.

I've not purchased a kit but I have fitted the aftermarket taper roller bearing.
Is the assumption that because it's a 'no-name' bearing it's poorer quality ? That may be correct so if your original is perfect, no rust pitting, no marks on the outer track from the rollers then probably OK to use it


There are a few Land Rover bolts that didn’t get changed from Series I to Series III.
I’m sure the swivel hub bolts are also BSF but I’ll have to check.


Swivel hub bolts on mine are 7/16' BSF.
Interestingly after a quick look at a Series I, II & III there are studs where the steering arm bolts on and bolts for the Railco.

Earlier wheel nuts are 9/16" BSF, always difficult to find a suitable wheel brace. I've managed to get a couple from Trash & Treasure markets and purchased a Britpart one which was very cumbersome & poorly made.



Colin

[JDNSW]

Yes, I knew about the Hotchkiss connection. The Morris/Hotchkiss OHC engine used in the mid-twenties had a poor reputation but it was what they had so it went into the first MG's. MG marketing people tried to disguise their engine's humble origins by putting MG branded cast camshaft cover, side plates, oil filler and falsely describing the dimensions. They published the bore size as different to what it was to make potential customers think it was MG's own engine. Thus confusing a couple of generations of repairers.

The first MG (May 1924) was simply a custom body on the standard Morris chassis, with the standard Continental derived side valve Hotchkiss engine. They had slightly modified steering, higher diff ratio, flatter springs, shock absorbers, and a different carburettor. 1926 saw vacuum boosted brakes, and carburettor types changed regularly, but the engine remained the same basic side valve design.

The OHC engine was introduced in the Morris Minor and the MG Midget in 1928. It was designed by Wolesley, which was personally owned by William Morris at the time. By 1932 it was replaced in the Minor by a side valve version, not sure about the MG.

[gromit]

On an axle I'm removing from a vehicle I found studs & a bolt (as JDNSW mentioned).
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2018/05/51.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/25KjdtS)DSCN4792 (https://flic.kr/p/25KjdtS) by Colin Radley (https://www.flickr.com/photos/152321353@N07/), on Flickr

Colin

[knares]

My first car was a MG J2, always thought it was a 1932 make, but I have been told it was a1934 make.
It had a overhead cam, two main bearing crank.
The valve layout was inlet-exhaust-inlet-exhaust ect
Cable brakes
i belive it was the same engine as the 1920s morris minor
morris were still useing there own threads in the 1950s

[JohnboyLandy]

According to my parts books, both S2a and S3 had BSF, but these came in two sizes - 7/16 and 3/8, and both studs and bolts were used, although the S3 book shows only bolts.

Presumably any given vehicle would have started life with the same on both sides!

The thing to note with these swivels is that one of the four studs on the steering lever (not the top railco) is a special stud that is a tight fit in the hole in the lever, and should go back in the same hole.

Hey John, I just took the nuts off mine on both sides, and the arms came off easily. I didn't notice any of the four studs being tighter than the others, but I don't plan on taking the studs out so do I need to be concerned at all, or just move on ?

Thanks
John

[JDNSW]

Hey John, I just took the nuts off mine on both sides, and the arms came off easily. I didn't notice any of the four studs being tighter than the others, but I don't plan on taking the studs out so do I need to be concerned at all, or just move on ?

Thanks
John

If there were no signs of movement, probably not. If concerned, you could check the diameters of the unthreaded shanks of the suds, and you should find one is slightly larger. Note that it is supposed to be an exact fit, not a press fit, so it should not make the arm hard to remove.

On the other hand, if there was signs of movement, you have a problem, because the hole in the arm is probably enlarged.

The connection primarily relies on the friction between the arm and the shims, but with the fitted stud making sure that any movement is so small that it cannot induce significant wear in a reasonable length of time.

[123rover50]

Hey John, I just took the nuts off mine on both sides, and the arms came off easily. I didn't notice any of the four studs being tighter than the others, but I don't plan on taking the studs out so do I need to be concerned at all, or just move on ?

Thanks
John

On the series 3 stage one front end I am putting on Maselai there are two interference fitted studs on the lower arms each side. In opposite corners.
The fitted diameter is slightly bigger than the thread. the other two the shank is the same as the thread.

[JohnboyLandy]

Thanks for the further comments guys, I'll take a second look this weekend.

Cheers,
John

[123rover50]

I should clarify that these are the bottom studs that hold the steering arms, not the Railco bushes on the top. They are all bolts. Though on Maselai I am trying bearings top and bottom instead of trying to make Stage one Railcos.

[gromit]

I should clarify that these are the bottom studs that hold the steering arms, not the Railco bushes on the top. They are all bolts. Though on Maselai I am trying bearings top and bottom instead of trying to make Stage one Railcos.

JDNSW mentioned this earlier in the thread.
Two of the studs for the steering arm have a slightly increased diameter in their centre section to locate the steering arm accurately. This is either top or bottom depending on the age of the vehicle (or at least where the steering arms are).

Colin