PUMA 2.4 Rough / Lumpy Idle only when cold - SCV, Injectors, EGR, MAF or MAPT

[titus]

Hi Everyone,

I thought I would share my current situation with my beloved Defender and see if any of the wizards on the forum have any pointers of what to do next. If you can't be bothered reading the saga below then these are the main points:

1) Very rough / Lumpy idle when first starts. Then when up to temp runs smooth
2) Initially changed fuel filter and ran through many tanks of injector cleaner / biocide / cylinder head cleaner
3) Found a slight leak (not even sure it was there but found some blow back under rocker cover) on one injector washer so replaced all washers
4) Changed SCV valve - no pump relearn as I don't have anything to do that and the stealers want to charge me $300 to do it. I would really give my money to Pete at BAS
5) Changed all glow plugs
6) Compression test - 360 across all cylinders
6) Cheap OBDII scanner gives me no fault codes and show that when coolant temp hits 30 degrees the EGR shuts off and 95% of the roughness goes away but a little bit is still there until the coolant hits ~ 60 degress
7) Not convinced it is injectors given the above as wouldn't the injectors exhibit rough idle almost all the time?

Last winter Fergie (my 2010 - 110) started sounding a bit grumbly when I first started her up on cold frosty mornings (I always run alpine mix when it is available). Not too bad but enough for me to think I need to check the fuel filter etc. and run through some injector cleaner. Initially I replace the fuel filter and added 100ml of Moreys injector cleaner to each tank and things slightly improved and I thought all was ok. A few months later my Mum (bless her) thought she would drive Fergie down the paddock but she stalled her about 400 times in a row. Apparently the anti stall tech doesn't work when you try to take off in 5th. Anyway, I was walking up from the paddock and all I could here was Mum turning the ignition like a mad thing and Fergie refusing to start. I jumped in and I tried to start her and she wouldn't budge - massive hissy fit. It was like she was flooded. No ignition in the engine at all. I let her sit and glowed her a few times and she fired up but ran as rough as guts. Really bad. After a few minutes she settled down but didn't sound right. I took her home, gave her a cuddle and tucked her in for the night. The next morning she still sounded rough when first started so that night I disconnected the battery overnight to try and reset the ECU (I don't even know if this works) as the only thing I could think of was that Mum's constant turning over and stalling caused the ECU to have a heart attack and try to correct a problem that wasn't there. Anyway, this might have had made some difference but I am not 100% sure now as every time I listen tot he motor I hear knocks and stutters that weren't there before.
I took her in to the local mechanic (a mate of mine) and he said injectors. I wasn't 100% convinced, especially at the $3k price tag to replace them so I trolled the forums and found some similar issues and took their advice. I bought a cheap OBDII scanner to look for fault codes and found none. I haven't tried to force a code yet but will disconnect the EGR today and see if the scanner picks it up. I then took her to a diesel specialist (and he is good I have used him several times before - Pete from Wodonga diesel - legend) and we decided to change the SCV valve and replace the washers on the injectors. This seemed to make Fergie run smoother but didn't fix the cold start / rough idle. I then took her back to Pete and we put new glow plugs in and did a compression test (360 across all cylinders). Now running rougher than ever but still only when cold. When she gets up to 30 degrees she almost immediately losses 95% of the roughness (but not all) and the EGR drops to 0% commanded open.

I need help now as I am at a loss and really don't think the injectors is the problem and don't want to spend $3k to find out.

Thanks a million for taking the time to read this. I will post any updates when I have them.

[DiscoMick]

So it improves once the EGR opens? Only guessing but could the EGR be faulty?

[justinc]

Please don't tell me it isn't only 340psi??
I'm going to suggest that there lies your first problem. 2.4 tdci should be 390 to 410psi.....


Jc

[titus]

So it improves once the EGR opens? Only guessing but could the EGR be faulty?
I presume the EGR is closed as I am going off the reading from the OBD which says the EGR is 0% commanded open - which I read as 100% closed. And I presume that means that no exhaust gas is recycled at this point. I was thinking the EGR as well. Was going to grab a BAS RPC to disable the EGR

[titus]

Please don't tell me it isn't only 340psi??
I'm going to suggest that there lies your first problem. 2.4 tdci should be 390 to 410psi.....


Jc
I just chased down the comp test invoice and it is 360 psi across all not 340 so sorry about that. Pete did think it was a bit low but it is even across all cylinders so thought that should be ok. Also the engine blows almost no smoke at all and I haven't noticed any significant power loss. Just out of curiosity, what could cause a uniform compression drop across all cylinders?

[justinc]

Unlikely to have a set of 4 bent conrods from hydraulicing unburnt fuel after repeated stalling/ starting... so im at a loss to explain this especially since all were similarly low. However i think that focussing the investigation on what systems are at play during the stalling/stop/start scenarios would be a good start. The tdci system isnt simple and really requires a knowledgeable person with the correct diagnostic tool to go over it.

Jc

[titus]

Thanks JC, I know I am clutching at straws and I really appreciate your input. I think the next step is trying to disable the EGR when it is fully closed and see if this fixes the issue. I am not convinced but I am equally not convinced it is the injectors.

BTW The issue with my mum repeatedly stalling may not have anything to do with this but may have just magnified an issue that was already there. Good thing is I am learning a lot about CRD engines :) Just hoping it wont cost me too much for the lessons :(

[Robmacca]

Hmmm.. I'm wanting to go to one of these 2.4ltr Tdic Pumas in the near future, kinda hope this is one of those isolated/rare problems ??

[titus]

Hmmm.. I'm wanting to go to one of these 2.4ltr Tdic Pumas in the near future, kinda hope this is one of those isolated/rare problems ??

Mine has been great up until this point - 160k and lots of towing / farm / 4wd use. Only real issues I have had (aside from wear and tear) have been with the freakin immobiliser at servos etc!!!!

[Robmacca]

Mine has been great up until this point - 160k and lots of towing / farm / 4wd use. Only real issues I have had (aside from wear and tear) have been with the freakin immobiliser at servos etc!!!!

The one I've been looking at has 170k on the clock..... What's the issue with the immobilisers? Can this be disabled?

[titus]

Lucas Immobiliser - is it the MT10? something like that anyway, if you search the forums for immobiliser issues you will find what I am talking about. It kicks in sometimes when they get interference (I think) from some electrical devices. Perfect example is the BP at Wallan (just outside of Melbourne) - famous for this. I pulled up for fuel one day and couldn't start the car again. I knew about this issue (but not at this site) so I went in and the very kind gentleman behind the counter turned off all the signage / equipment one by one until we found the culprit - the main price sign!!! Anyway, he turned off the sign and I started the car. He turned it back on and I couldn't start the car. Happened to me 3 times, twice at servos and once (and the first time) outside a pub. Make sure you get the EKA code of the car (4 digit code) and the alarm / immobiliser reset procedure and you will be able to work around it even if you can find the culprit. You really need this if you go bush as well.

At 160k mine is still fresh as a daisy (aside from this issue which is really annoying) and I love it but I service every 5k and if the owner of the one you are looking at has any knowledge / respect for the car they will do the same.

[Robmacca]

Make sure you get the EKA code of the car (4 digit code) and the alarm / immobiliser reset procedure and you will be able to work around it even if you can find the culprit. You really need this if you go bush as well.


It's MY09 model.... Can u get this issue disabled within the ECU either when u get a preformance remap or via your local LR Mechanic Shop?

Not sure if the owner would that EKA info as he's the 2nd owner I think..... If he doesn't, where can one source this info from?

Rob

[titus]

I think you can disable the immobiliser with the BAS remap but not 100% as I haven't ordered one yet (just about to) and you can get the EKA from LR you just need to prove you own the vehicle. The one I had in my manual turned out not to be the EKA code, which I found out rather embarrassingly parked directly outside the front of the pub that it stopped at with me sending the alarm into fits, over and over again!!!

[DiscoMick]

I presume the EGR is closed as I am going off the reading from the OBD which says the EGR is 0% commanded open - which I read as 100% closed. And I presume that means that no exhaust gas is recycled at this point. I was thinking the EGR as well. Was going to grab a BAS RPC to disable the EGRI'm only guessing, but I know from my own 2009 2.4 that the EGR gets clogged up with constant city running and needs a good long highway run - at least an hour at 100 kmh - to burn off the crap and be clean.
I just wondered if your mother's 400 failed start antics had clogged up the EGR and it needed to go through its burn cycle so the vehicle would run properly.
Has it been for a good long highway run recently? Mine gets several long highway runs a month and it's purring along nicely.
As I said, it's only a guess.

[titus]

Has it been for a good long highway run recently?
As I said, it's only a guess.
No it hasn't - mainly short trips or low speed trips (farm work). I'll give it a good run tomorrow and see how that goes. Thanks for the suggestion!

[jackdef90]

Have you checked out the air side of things? Obviously sound s like an issue with fuel or air as it’s running rough.
i know the turbo actuator can get a bit sticky. also check the air filter box is on properly. And there’s nothing amiss with the intake blockages etc.

One issue I had with mine, surging and hunting after I had it serviced, turns out the Speedo sensor wasn’t plugged into the little gear pick up thingy on the gearbox properly, didn’t throw a code but just drove like the turbo had a mind of its own and wanted to stall when idling. Was plugged back in and back to normal.

They are pretty sensitive to fuel, you can feel it big time if your forced to fuel up at a budget servo, bp ultimate or shell it runs really well.

[SSmith]

I think you can disable the immobiliser with the BAS remap

Yep, I turned mine into nothing more than a central locking system.
living in Wallan, that BP is one that I frequent.

[SSmith]

No it hasn't - mainly short trips or low speed trips (farm work). I'll give it a good run tomorrow and see how that goes. Thanks for the suggestion!

if your long run is in my direction I can plug the GapIID and see if there are any codes the cheapie missed.

[titus]

Have you checked out the air side of things?
I have but I think I am going to do it again more thoroughly. Haven't checked the turbo actuator though. I'll read up on how to do that.



turns out the Speedo sensor wasn’t plugged into the little gear pick up thingy on the gearbox properly
I'll be sure to check that as well - as soon as I find it!!



They are pretty sensitive to fuel, you can feel it big time if your forced to fuel up at a budget servo, bp ultimate or shell it runs really well.
I am the same - only ever BP or Shell

Thanks for the suggestions!!

[titus]

Yep, I turned mine into nothing more than a central locking system.
living in Wallan, that BP is one that I frequent.

Good to know - you happy with the BAS remap?

[titus]

if your long run is in my direction I can plug the GapIID and see if there are any codes the cheapie missed.
Thanks for the offer but I hope to have my own as soon as I can scrape up the scratch for the BAS2 RRC

[Chops]

Just read this, and not sure if I’ll be of much help at all, but anyway.

I had a similar issue with mine when it was new,, LR replaced the ECU.

Theres two really good guys in Wodonga that you could probably see. Ones an A grade mechanic and all round good guy who’s extremely helpful, Ivan Clarke,, and like Justin, knows his Landrovers inside and out. The other is a guy has the four wheel dyno. He piloted mine and fixed it 😁 when LR in Melb said it was as good as it was ever going to be 🤬 (long story).

Sing out if you want more info on the Wodonga guys.

[SSmith]

Good to know - you happy with the BAS remap?Very!

I am not sure if the RRC can do things like reconfigure the central locking.

I have the GapIID diagnostic tool, which can also do the remaps.

[titus]

Ones an A grade mechanic and all round good guy who’s extremely helpful, Ivan Clarke,, and like Justin, knows his Landrovers inside and out. The other is a guy has the four wheel dyno. He piloted mine and fixed it 😁 when LR in Melb said it was as good as it was ever going to be 🤬 (long story).

Sing out if you want more info on the Wodonga guys.

Hi Chops, I would love the contact for the 4 wheel dyno guy if you have it and thanks for posting!!!

[spudfan]

The VCV (Volume control valve) could be at fault. It can cause the vehicle to cut out when idling or can cause a surge when driving. If you look at the passenger side of the engine you will see it sitting on top of the injector pump. If you remove the manifold in front of it, you can change it easily.
Mine was replaced with a Denso unit, which is a lot less than the Land Rover one. You can also use the Ford unit which is the same and also cheaper than the Land Rover one.
Landrover part LR009837
Ford part 1 514 885 (6C1Q 9358 AB)
Denso one is the cheapest.
Some maintain that a learning exercise is necessary after a change of the VCV, others say it is not necessary. Mine was changed without a learning exercise and all is running well. We didn't have the facilities to do one. A faulty VCV does not throw up any fault codes.
If you have a month to spare there is quite an amount of discussion on the Defender2 site regarding the VCV.
Regarding a non start, I would not worry about it. If it fails to start just remove the key, press lock then unlock and it will then start.
I have two sets of keys for the Puma. One set always starts the vehicle while the other (programmed by a maindealer) occasionally gives the non start issue. I just remove the key, press lock then unlock and insert the key and it will then start. I think it is a programming issue with the key.
Think of it as an anti theft device.

[Robmacca]

The VCV (Volume control valve) could be at fault. It can cause the vehicle to cut out when idling or can cause a surge when driving. If you look at the passenger side of the engine you will see it sitting on top of the injector pump. If you remove the manifold in front of it, you can change it easily.
Mine was replaced with a Denso unit, which is a lot less than the Land Rover one. You can also use the Ford unit which is the same and also cheaper than the Land Rover one.
Landrover part LR009837
Ford part 1 514 885 (6C1Q 9358 AB)
Denso one is the cheapest.
Some maintain that a learning exercise is necessary after a change of the VCV, others say it is not necessary. Mine was changed without a learning exercise and all is running well. We didn't have the facilities to do one. A faulty VCV does not throw up any fault codes.
If you have a month to spare there is quite an amount of discussion on the Defender2 site regarding the VCV.
Regarding a non start, I would not worry about it. If it fails to start just remove the key, press lock then unlock and it will then start.
I have two sets of keys for the Puma. One set always starts the vehicle while the other (programmed by a maindealer) occasionally gives the non start issue. I just remove the key, press lock then unlock and insert the key and it will then start. I think it is a programming issue with the key.
Think of it as an anti theft device.

Do u have the Denso Part number?

[Chops]

Hi Chops, I would love the contact for the 4 wheel dyno guy if you have it and thanks for posting!!!

Just so you know, I haven’t forgotten, I’ve just got to find him again, as in a name. Can’t find my paperwork from it, so I may try and put up a map thingy for you,, that may prove easier 🙄

[FV1601]

Chops, was it Websters Dyno and Performance in Queen St Wodonga?
Rich.

[Chops]

I thought he was in Hempel St,, (??)

[spudfan]

Do u have the Denso Part number?
DCRS300260
(SCV valve DCRS300260)
Also has Valve Assembly-Fuel Vapour on label.
Here is a price comparison
LR009837 | Valve - Fuel Vapour - Land Rover Part LR009837 (https://www.lrdirect.com/LR009837-Valve-Fuel-Vapour/?keep_https=yes)

[titus]

The VCV (Volume control valve) could be at fault.
I am fairly certain it is the VCV (SCV). I have had it replaced with Denso part no. 294200-0360 which is supposed to be compatible with my fuel pump (294000-0951) but it is a different part number than the Denso replacement part for the VCV (294009-0260).

As far as I can tell the recommended replacement part (294009-0260) costs around $480 (or at least that was what I was quoted over the phone today) and the part no that was used when I had it replaced (
294200-0360
) costs around $190. They are supposed to be interchangeable and have the same specs (from what I can find) so why the price difference? BTW I am not 100% convinced that the $480 quote was for a
294009-0260
. I suspect that if I ordered it I would get a
294200-0360
.

The Denso site is a complete disaster so I can't find any reference to the part numbers unless it is on another 3rd party vendors site so I am relying on them being right.

These guys seem like they know what they are talking about:
Land Rover Defender 2.4 Td4 Reconditioned DENSO Diesel Fuel Pump - 294000-095#, Specialist Diesel Injection Services Ltd. (http://www.commonraildiesels.com/product_info.php/land-rover-defender-td4-reconditioned-denso-diesel-fuel-pump-294000-095-p-2125)
At least all their references make sense.

Also these guys say the SCV will suit the pump I have
Suction Control Valve to suit Nissan Navara & Pathfinder / Mitsubishi Triton & Pajero A6860-VM09A / 294200-0360 - Baileys Diesel Group (https://www.baileysdiesel.com/shop/suction-control-valve-suit-nissan-navara-pathfinder-mitsubishi-triton-pajero-a6860-vm09a-294200-0360/)

No clear answer in sight!!!!!

Well after all that look what I just found:
https://bellautoservices.co.uk/store/defender-2-4tdci-vcv-fuel-vapour-valve/

Pete is a legend. I know where I will be buying it from - might get an intercooler thrown in as well ;)

[titus]

Just so you know, I haven’t forgotten, I’ve just got to find him again, as in a name. Can’t find my paperwork from it, so I may try and put up a map thingy for you,, that may prove easier 🙄

Thanks Chops I really appreciate it.

[Chops]

Chops, was it Websters Dyno and Performance in Queen St Wodonga?
Rich.


Rightio,, Websters it is, but when I went to him, he was in Hempel St, which when you look on Google maps, he's shown as being there and in Queen St too. Maybe he has moved perhaps (??).

Phone according to the maps says (02) 6056 6855

[titus]

Rightio,, Websters it is, but when I went to him, he was in Hempel St, which when you look on Google maps, he's shown as being there and in Queen St too. Maybe he has moved perhaps (??).

Phone according to the maps says (02) 6056 6855
That's great thanks. I'll book in with them as soon as I get a chance. I might order another VCV from BAS and throw it in first. After reading a thread on Defender2.net (DEFENDER2.NET - View topic - Eratic Idle especially when cold (http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic30222-15.html)) it seems a new SCV doesn't necessarily mean a working SCV.

Thanks for all the help guys I'll keep you posted on what happens. Enjoy the weekend!!!

[SSmith]

That's great thanks. I'll book in with them as soon as I get a chance. I might order another VCV from BAS and throw it in first. After reading a thread on Defender2.net (DEFENDER2.NET - View topic - Eratic Idle especially when cold (http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic30222-15.html)) it seems a new SCV doesn't necessarily mean a working SCV.

Thanks for all the help guys I'll keep you posted on what happens. Enjoy the weekend!!!Did you end up getting the reset & relearn done after the new vcv?

I got a full set of fuel sensors (VCV, pressure sensor and pressure regulator) from a ford parts supplier (can dig up records if you like) for less than $200, with the pump relearn, they are working just fine.

[titus]

Did you end up getting the reset & relearn done after the new vcv?

I got a full set of fuel sensors (VCV, pressure sensor and pressure regulator) from a ford parts supplier (can dig up records if you like) for less than $200, with the pump relearn, they are working just fine.

That's sounds like a bargain and I would really appreciate it if you can let me know where / what to order. Did you happen to run it for a while before the relearn? It would be interesting to know how much of a difference it makes. Reading other threads it seems it is a nice to do rather than a must do - mine is running rough as guts with the new VCV so I would class it as a must do if a relearn will fix this.


Is this the one you got:
IIDTool BT - Gap Diagnostic (http://www.gap-diagnostic.com/shop/iidtool-bt/)
How long did it take to get it delivered?

[SSmith]

Yes, that is the unit.

I had considered the pump reset a must, but im no expert there. Mine was hunting for idle, which i dont recall if it went away before or after the reset. But it is definitely fixed now.

Hitup the guys that Chops has recommended, if they could help sort his dramas they must be good!

If you cant get it in or cant afford the help I can do the pump reset.

[titus]

OK - PROBLEM SOLVED!!!!!

sorry it has taken so long to reply with my results but I lost the ability to post and then it took me a while to work out that my free subscription had lapsed. Anyway, here is the result of everyone's great input and advice and a particular shout out to SSmith for having so much patience with me. I hope it helps anyone having similar issues as it was a real pain to work out.

Where we were at last post:
the 110 was running really rough on start up - I mean REALLY rough. At times it sounded like a valve was going to punch through the bonnet. If anyone has any experience with old Fordson 3 cylinder tractors (Super Dexter in my case) it sounded exactly like that "CLACK CLACK CLACK". In the end I was waiting until the sun had been on the car for a while before I tried to start her. I wanted to take a video of the noise but because it was intermittent I never quite caught it.

What I did to fix it:
I decided to take SSmith's advice and order a GAP diagnostics tool (amazing piece of kit BTW) and try the high pressure pump reset. When it arrived from Canada I plugged it straight in and did the reset. This took about 10-15 minutes (most of that time was getting the engine up to temp) and then it was purring like a kitten. Unbelievable!!!! The difference was amazing. Not only had the rough idle disappeared but also a few other issues I had were also gone (hesitation when changing into 3rd and an intermittent surge when suddenly backing off the throttle in 2nd)

Things I would do Differently:
If you are looking at EGR blanking or an ECU remap then I would buy the BAS remaps version of the GAP tool as it is a lot cheaper to buy from Pete than to buy the tool and then the software.
I would not get the tool delivered to my PO Box. It took 3 days to go from Canada to US hub, then Melbourne and clear customs with UPS (I think - can't remember the courier). It then took 11 days from Melbourne to North East Vic once Auspost got its hands on it!!!!! Apparently UPS have to hand it over to Auspost if it has to be delivered to a PO Box. Insane.

Anyway, thanks to everyone for the help and I hope this helps anyone experiencing the same issues.

Now I am off to find out where a new leak in my transfer is coming from. The smell of burning trans fluid filling the cabin is awesome!!!

[Wallaby Ted]

OK - PROBLEM SOLVED!!!!!

Now I am off to find out where a new leak in my transfer is coming from. The smell of burning trans fluid filling the cabin is awesome!!!

Try the intermediate shaft on the front of the lt230, it is a known problem.

Richard

[retromatic]

Hi Everyone,

I can confirm that if you have either a faulty MAF or MAP or both. You will most certainly have poor rough idling and power delivery. Also very noisy.

I had been chasing this issue on a 2.4 Puma for over 6 months. Injectors taken out, tested and flowed, new copper washers, seals, SCV replaced re-calibrated, pilot correction re-done on injectors, sensors cleaned, wiring tested, etc.

You will not get an engine fault, nor will any errors come up on a scan.

The problem is that the MAF and MAP start reporting erratic and false readings, this can be seen on an oscilloscope for each sensor. The ECU then tries to compensate by varying the injectors, etc to match the erratic MAF/MAP readings and this is the noisy rattling at idle and can also force the ECU into limp mode (note you will never see a fault or check engine light like a normal limp mode because the ECU is not programmed to throw a fault on readings alone, it doesn't know what a bad reading is it just takes the MAF and MAP reading and commands the injectors to do what its programmed to do as part of its tune, it needs the MAF or MAP to completely fail and not give any readings before it will throw an error. So instead of throwing an error it will try to adjust scv, injectors to suit and if too many adjustments it will run a safe tune map, albeit intermittently (this is the sluggishness you will feel when driving and poor throttle response). This also presents itself as one day car runs fine, another it's rough, sounding like a bucket of bolts, underpowered, or sometimes it can be on and off in a single drive or day. Might be bad when cold and good when warm, etc, etc.

Changing the MAF and MAP in my case totally removed all and every symptom I was having, and it is now running like a Swiss clock.

Also there are variances in the brand and make of MAF (MAP I only used genuine because they are cheap) however do not skimp on a MAF and I will say that the original ford MAF is very sensitive in that if you later down the track decide to change your airbox and intake piping around it will effect how the Ford sensor feeds info to the ECU.

There are only two sensors I would recommend, they are:
Pierburg (German made) Part number: 7.22184.76.0 can be purchased in Australia through Goss Goss - Home (http://www.goss.com.au) (Part No: AM70M54N) along with all other engine sensors, type your rego in here and it will give you a full list of sensors for your vehicle Goss - Catalogue (https://www.goss.com.au/catalogue/)
Goss sensors can be purchased through any Repco, supercheap, etc.

Or you can buy genuine ford sensor through ford part number 6C1112B579AA
Or Land rover genuine sensor part number MHK501040
The ford and land rover sensors are both identical and very sensitive as mentioned.

How do I know, because I have run all three on an oscilloscope and monitored their results.

I prefer the Pierburg as it is more forgiving to relocation for aftermarket airbox and intake piping.

I will add that you do not need to buy the expensive BAS or GAP tool to calibrate, replace injectors or SCV on the 2.4 Puma (not sure about the 2.2 puma)
Instead a free app can be used on either an iPhone, Android or Windows PC called Forscan. For=Ford, Scan=Scan (All puma's run a Ford Duratorq 2.2 or 2.4 engine and ECU, the forscan diagnostics tool supports the 2.4 i am sure because I have used it but it wont let you flash an upgraded tune or immobiliser disable to the ECU, strictly servicing and maintenance)
Download for Forscan available here Download FORScan (https://forscan.org/download.html)

You can buy an ODB adaptor, either

USB: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000995546207.html (!!!NOTE!!! this will only work on a Windows Computer)
OR
Bluetooth: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001908469352.html (iPhone or Android)

Hope this helps someone and saves them money.

All the best


Hi Everyone,

I thought I would share my current situation with my beloved Defender and see if any of the wizards on the forum have any pointers of what to do next. If you can't be bothered reading the saga below then these are the main points:

1) Very rough / Lumpy idle when first starts. Then when up to temp runs smooth
2) Initially changed fuel filter and ran through many tanks of injector cleaner / biocide / cylinder head cleaner
3) Found a slight leak (not even sure it was there but found some blow back under rocker cover) on one injector washer so replaced all washers
4) Changed SCV valve - no pump relearn as I don't have anything to do that and the stealers want to charge me $300 to do it. I would really give my money to Pete at BAS
5) Changed all glow plugs
6) Compression test - 360 across all cylinders
6) Cheap OBDII scanner gives me no fault codes and show that when coolant temp hits 30 degrees the EGR shuts off and 95% of the roughness goes away but a little bit is still there until the coolant hits ~ 60 degress
7) Not convinced it is injectors given the above as wouldn't the injectors exhibit rough idle almost all the time?

Last winter Fergie (my 2010 - 110) started sounding a bit grumbly when I first started her up on cold frosty mornings (I always run alpine mix when it is available). Not too bad but enough for me to think I need to check the fuel filter etc. and run through some injector cleaner. Initially I replace the fuel filter and added 100ml of Moreys injector cleaner to each tank and things slightly improved and I thought all was ok. A few months later my Mum (bless her) thought she would drive Fergie down the paddock but she stalled her about 400 times in a row. Apparently the anti stall tech doesn't work when you try to take off in 5th. Anyway, I was walking up from the paddock and all I could here was Mum turning the ignition like a mad thing and Fergie refusing to start. I jumped in and I tried to start her and she wouldn't budge - massive hissy fit. It was like she was flooded. No ignition in the engine at all. I let her sit and glowed her a few times and she fired up but ran as rough as guts. Really bad. After a few minutes she settled down but didn't sound right. I took her home, gave her a cuddle and tucked her in for the night. The next morning she still sounded rough when first started so that night I disconnected the battery overnight to try and reset the ECU (I don't even know if this works) as the only thing I could think of was that Mum's constant turning over and stalling caused the ECU to have a heart attack and try to correct a problem that wasn't there. Anyway, this might have had made some difference but I am not 100% sure now as every time I listen tot he motor I hear knocks and stutters that weren't there before.
I took her in to the local mechanic (a mate of mine) and he said injectors. I wasn't 100% convinced, especially at the $3k price tag to replace them so I trolled the forums and found some similar issues and took their advice. I bought a cheap OBDII scanner to look for fault codes and found none. I haven't tried to force a code yet but will disconnect the EGR today and see if the scanner picks it up. I then took her to a diesel specialist (and he is good I have used him several times before - Pete from Wodonga diesel - legend) and we decided to change the SCV valve and replace the washers on the injectors. This seemed to make Fergie run smoother but didn't fix the cold start / rough idle. I then took her back to Pete and we put new glow plugs in and did a compression test (360 across all cylinders). Now running rougher than ever but still only when cold. When she gets up to 30 degrees she almost immediately losses 95% of the roughness (but not all) and the EGR drops to 0% commanded open.

I need help now as I am at a loss and really don't think the injectors is the problem and don't want to spend $3k to find out.

Thanks a million for taking the time to read this. I will post any updates when I have them.