Front drive shaft

[fourteen8]

After 2 times rebuild finally it broke while the car is moving. Were running around 20-30kph when I felt the vibration and loud noise as I enter the main road.
Stopped at the bus stop and I saw the part of the front drive shaft on the road behind. Got the tow truck and arrived home safely around 2am Saturday morning.
Took whats left attached to the car so I can take my daughter to piano lesson and swimming tonight.
Assessed the damage and I think I am still lucky not much dent/damage on the transmission sump but it did dent the transmission pipes (but still ok) and damage the cable cdl sleeve.
Should I be worried about the dent on the transmission pipes and sleeve damage on the cdl cable? I can see the cable wire.
After twice rebuild this now I am thinking to get a HD one. My D2 has 2” lift and running 265/75/16 MT. I found tom woods one and others but mostly for defender.
Anyone can recommend HD front drive shaft with bigger angle than standard for my D2?
Thanks. Gus.

[Jazzman]

I highly recommend correcting your wheel track with an adjustable panhard rod. It is an extra expense but it will align the uni again so it is only working on a vertical plane not a horizontal plane too. At low speed it doesn't really matter that much, but at highway speeds constantly working on two planes the centre bearing and uni's get hot and flog out.

But yes, I would also recommend either a Les Richmond or Tom Woods front shaft. But I truly believe doing this without correcting the front track to put the diff back central in the car after lifting it (yes by only 50mm) is unwise. Have a look yourself, the front tire sits out further than the rear on the passenger size. Considering the front track is narrower than the rear this is not right.

Others will tell you fitting the larger shaft will solve the problem of having to replace them all the time, especially if you grease them regularly. But it is not solving the fundamental problem.

[whitey56]

After 2 times rebuild finally it broke while the car is moving..

The previous owner of my D2a [standard height] had given most of his invoices to the car yard i bought mine from and they gave them to me, he too had replaced 2 sets of UJ's [fitted by workshops] in fairly quick succession then a few months later there is a invoice for a front shaft from Hardie Spicer for big bucks, that was followed by a invoice for a trans gasket only which to me suggests he replaced the damaged trans sump, there is a battle scar on the chassis so it looks like the shaft had a pretty good rattle around.
I have never replaced a DC but i'm not looking forward to the day when it needs it as they appear a mongrel of a job.

I was thinking about a lift to do a few beach trips but i might just find a set larger tyres, a good tow rope and take a roll of $20's than worry about the front shaft.

[4runnernomore]

Just recently had a APT HD front drive shaft fitted to my D2 after the old double cardinal joint flogged out.
I do a lot of high speed work in the NT up,to 130km for three hours at a time in 30-40 degree heat. I have had my D2 for 6 years now and the last 16 months have been doing the high speed work. Serviced regularly. whole car was fully serviced and checked over before starting the high way work. Had a new gearbox fitted last year with all UNOs checked. Front double Cardinal flogged out without much warning after a service. Lucky for me it did not let go.mheard it growling accelerating away from lights when I was nearly home.

These APT units are are supposed to be bomb proof. Uses a F series double cardinal joint 1350 size, fully greasable. Supposed to be able to support up to 4 inch lift no issues with binding.

So so far so good Done approx 1500km since fitting.

they are exxy but hopefully will be more than worth the outlay.

Cheers Chris

[DieSchnelleKafer]

I highly recommend correcting your wheel track with an adjustable panhard rod. It is an extra expense but it will align the uni again so it is only working on a vertical plane not a horizontal plane too. At low speed it doesn't really matter that much, but at highway speeds constantly working on two planes the centre bearing and uni's get hot and flog out.

A shaft with a DC on one end and a UJ on the other will not be affected by planes of motion like you say. Talk about the DC end first, this joint does not care at what plane or combinations of planes that it works at, it only sees one angle. The UJ will see one angle as well. You have confused yourself because aligning planes is very important with conventional UJ-UJ shafts, however for such shafts as the rover d2, it does not come in to play with the analysis. What matters for a rover d2 shaft is that the differential pinion lines up with the body of the shaft as accurate as possible. You are correct in saying that a lift will move the axle to the drivers side slightly, however how much is this really? 5mm? 5mm change over the length of the shaft is perhaps a change of 0.4 degrees. 0.4 degree change... lets be real.


Others will tell you fitting the larger shaft will solve the problem of having to replace them all the time, especially if you grease them regularly. But it is not solving the fundamental problem.

The fundamental problem with most d2's (not implying that this is the case with fourteen8's rig) is that these stock shafts are not adequate. Simple as that. Whether this is because they are non-serviceable or because they are next to a whopping great heat source, it does not matter, they are not up to the job, admit that land rovers sometimes have flaws. All you need to do is search the internet and find that most folks have solved their shaft issues by installing a well built aftermarket, serviceable shaft.

Now in saying all that, fourteen8 it appears that you have other issues. I would question the quality of the rebuild jobs that have happened in the past. If the shaft had a defect from the beginning, it would not matter how many times it is rebuilt as it would still self destruct with time.

My recommendation is to first check your lt230 output bearing as this could also be a contributing factor. If all is well and good then get yourself a tom woods shaft and be done with it. grease it regularly and enjoy your discovery. I don't see a front shaft upgrade as a choice, I see it as a necessity. If you decide to keep buying derivatives of the stock shaft then just accept that you are driving a time bomb.

[Bohica]

..... I don't see a front shaft upgrade as a choice, I see it as a necessity. If you decide to keep buying derivatives of the stock shaft then just accept that you are driving a time bomb.

I bought a second hand stock shaft, as the previous one was too knackered to be repaired. Now that this one has died, I'lll be using the repair kit to upgrade the double cardan to the improved greasable version. The repair kit was about $150.00. One improvement would be to has a grease nipple for the centre ball joint.

[rangieman]

I bought a second hand stock shaft, as the previous one was too knackered to be repaired. Now that this one has died, I'lll be using the repair kit to upgrade the double cardan to the improved greasable version. The repair kit was about $150.00. One improvement would be to has a grease nipple for the centre ball joint.
Stay tuned on this i have a DC shaft pulled apart ATM and am toying with the idea of modding it to greasable centre bearing[wink11]

[Bohica]

Stay tuned on this i have a DC shaft pulled apart ATM and am toying with the idea of modding it to greasable centre bearing[wink11]

You could drill a hole, with a diameter smaller than the spring, then another one at 90 degrees. I'm not sure if there is room for a grease gun. My old one is is on my desk at work, I'll have a look tomorrow.

The next day.

The part that attaches to the transfer case does not have the room for a grease nipple.

[Jazzman]

A shaft with a DC on one end and a UJ on the other will not be affected by planes of motion like you say. Talk about the DC end first, this joint does not care at what plane or combinations of planes that it works at, it only sees one angle. The UJ will see one angle as well. You have confused yourself because aligning planes is very important with conventional UJ-UJ shafts, however for such shafts as the rover d2, it does not come in to play with the analysis. What matters for a rover d2 shaft is that the differential pinion lines up with the body of the shaft as accurate as possible. You are correct in saying that a lift will move the axle to the drivers side slightly, however how much is this really? 5mm? 5mm change over the length of the shaft is perhaps a change of 0.4 degrees. 0.4 degree change... lets be real.



The fundamental problem with most d2's (not implying that this is the case with fourteen8's rig) is that these stock shafts are not adequate. Simple as that. Whether this is because they are non-serviceable or because they are next to a whopping great heat source, it does not matter, they are not up to the job, admit that land rovers sometimes have flaws. All you need to do is search the internet and find that most folks have solved their shaft issues by installing a well built aftermarket, serviceable shaft.

Now in saying all that, fourteen8 it appears that you have other issues. I would question the quality of the rebuild jobs that have happened in the past. If the shaft had a defect from the beginning, it would not matter how many times it is rebuilt as it would still self destruct with time.

My recommendation is to first check your lt230 output bearing as this could also be a contributing factor. If all is well and good then get yourself a tom woods shaft and be done with it. grease it regularly and enjoy your discovery. I don't see a front shaft upgrade as a choice, I see it as a necessity. If you decide to keep buying derivatives of the stock shaft then just accept that you are driving a time bomb.

While I understand the point you are making, it doesn't explain why my original uni's lasted 300,000kms (with no lift) and the rebuilt one lasted 20,000kms (with 2" lift). It was rebuild and balanced by a pro (not mechanic a prop shaft specialist) with Hardy Spicer uni's and centre bearing. Twice in fact as we though it may have been build incorrectly or had defect parts the first time. After the second time they took my car for a day and measured the angles, i have the report somewhere but can't remember what they were.

[Bohica]

I have managed to remove the centre ball part. The outer part that supports the centre ball is still in. I'm going to try some gentle heat on the out outer part, maybe the outer part will expand enough to remove this outer shell. Short of putting a Dremel onto it which is going to be tricky not to hack up the rest of the joint, I'm not sure what to do in a less destructive manner.
Any ideas anyone?

Thanks

Julian

[PhilipA]

There is a post in What happened to your D2 showing how another bloke did it.
Regards Philip A

[Tins]

There is a post in What happened to your D2 showing how another bloke did it.
Regards Philip A

This one?

Double Cardan Joint Ball Removal (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/discovery-2-a/240519-double-cardan-joint-ball-removal.html)

[rangieman]

There is a post in What happened to your D2 showing how another bloke did it.
Regards Philip A
I just did one on the weekend and i did this [wink11]
140220140221140222140223
Took all of 2 minutes [bigwhistle]
Took longer to get the welder out and set it up[bigrolf]

[Bohica]

I just did one on the weekend and i did this [wink11]
140220140221140222140223
Took all of 2 minutes [bigwhistle]
Took longer to get the welder out and set it up[bigrolf]

I got the ball out easily. The outer race is still in the joint.

[rangieman]

I got the ball out easily. The outer race is still in the joint.
The whole thing came out this way[wink11]

[discorevy]

I have managed to remove the centre ball part. The outer part that supports the centre ball is still in. I'm going to try some gentle heat on the out outer part, maybe the outer part will expand enough to remove this outer shell. Short of putting a Dremel onto it which is going to be tricky not to hack up the rest of the joint, I'm not sure what to do in a less destructive manner.
Any ideas anyone?

Thanks

Julian

If you have or have access to a mig welder run a light bead around the inside of the outer race , it will then drop out.

[Roverlord off road spares]

If you have or have access to a mig welder run a light bead around the inside of the outer race , it will then drop out.
I mentioned that previously, but for some reason my post is not there :bat:

[DiscoMick]

A Defender one was fitted to my D1.

[AK83]

Chris was lucky to get the outer sleeve out with the ball.
Ours also had the ball out but the sleeve stuck hard inside the casing too.
Get a cheapo small wood chisel, and slowly hack at one point making a groove into the outer sleeve(obviously not the case).
Chisel will get a pounding and may end up being throw away, unless you're good a regrinding it back.

Took about 10mins of gentle massacring the sleeve. Note that it didn't actually cut right through the sleeve, just enough to make it softy-bendy with a bit of a warp in it to finally get a grip and pull it out with a pair of multigrips.
No damage to casing.

[fourteen8]

Got tom woods shaft. Question: is the grease for the uj and shaft the same? Thanks.

[Bohica]

Chris was lucky to get the outer sleeve out with the ball.
Ours also had the ball out but the sleeve stuck hard inside the casing too.
Get a cheapo small wood chisel, and slowly hack at one point making a groove into the outer sleeve(obviously not the case).
Chisel will get a pounding and may end up being throw away, unless you're good a regrinding it back.

Took about 10mins of gentle massacring the sleeve. Note that it didn't actually cut right through the sleeve, just enough to make it softy-bendy with a bit of a warp in it to finally get a grip and pull it out with a pair of multigrips.
No damage to casing.
Up and down groove? Parallel to the three grooves in the race?

[rangieman]

Got tom woods shaft. Question: is the grease for the uj and shaft the same? Thanks.
Of course [thumbsupbig]

[rangieman]

Chris was lucky to get the outer sleeve out with the ball.
Ours also had the ball out but the sleeve stuck hard inside the casing too.
Get a cheapo small wood chisel, and slowly hack at one point making a groove into the outer sleeve(obviously not the case).
Chisel will get a pounding and may end up being throw away, unless you're good a regrinding it back.

Took about 10mins of gentle massacring the sleeve. Note that it didn't actually cut right through the sleeve, just enough to make it softy-bendy with a bit of a warp in it to finally get a grip and pull it out with a pair of multigrips.
No damage to casing.
In my opinion luck did not have anything to do with it [wink11]

Had a lot to do with the welding heat transfer that helped thing`s shrink and free up also the way it pulled out via a straight pull [thumbsupbig]
If anyone has a dead shaft and want this done im happy to be proved wrong [bigwhistle]
Hell bring two over and we will go for best of of three successful attempt`s [tonguewink]

[Bohica]

In my opinion luck did not have anything to do with it [wink11]

Had a lot to do with the welding heat transfer that helped thing`s free up also the way it pulled out via a straight pull [thumbsupbig]
If anyone has a dead shaft and want this done im happy to be proved wrong [bigwhistle]
Hell bring two over and we will go for best of of three successful attempt`s [tonguewink]

Ill trying the oven on mine.

[rangieman]

Ill trying the oven on mine.
Good luck with the roasties[wink11]

[Bohica]

Good luck with the roasties[wink11]Well that did not work. I have amate who has a mig welder and a Dremel. He is quite a craftsman. I still dont understand why heating it up makes the inner race drop out. It will expand and bind tighter.

[AK83]

Up and down groove? Parallel to the three grooves in the race?

With the chisel, you create a groove in the inside of the outer sleeve. Once you have started forming this groove just keep hacking along that groove. it eventually weakens the sleeve to be able to bend it just enough to weaken the hold between the case and the sleeve.

if you have a mate with a dremel .. even better .. just hack at it with the dremel instead of the chisel.

I gave my dremel(knock off) to my brother, and if he had brought it with him, we'd sure have preferred to use that instead of the chisel.

If you do get a dremel, cut the sleeve at about 45° to vertical, like I said, you don't need to hack it right through the metal.. just a 2mm cut into the metal is more than enough to soften some part of it and then easy(ish) to bend it from there and pull it.

[rangieman]

Well that did not work. I have amate who has a mig welder and a Dremel. He is quite a craftsman. I still dont understand why heating it up makes the inner race drop out. It will expand and bind tighter.
No it does work the problem with your method is you heated the whole unit so it all heated up and expanded and shrunk together [bigrolf].

Here watch this not the best vid [wink11]

https://youtu.be/vM347ewaLEo

[Roverlord off road spares]

No it does work the problem with your method is you heated the whole unit so it all heated up and expanded and shrunk together [bigrolf].

Here watch this not the best vid [wink11]

https://youtu.be/vM347ewaLEo
He must have used a whole roll of mig wire on that one, I didn't he was ever going to stop!. then a bash on the new bering with a mallet, a press would have been a better option on that one. LOL

[rangieman]

He must have used a whole roll of mig wire on that one, I didn't he was ever going to stop!. then a bash on the new bering with a mallet, a press would have been a better option on that one. LOL

Over zealous on the welding bit and rough on the new bearing [bighmmm]
I did say not the best vid [bigwhistle]
But it helps to show how this weld method works even tho some find it hard to believe [thumbsupbig]