TerraFirma Wheels Bead Lock broken bolts

[p38arover]

Yesterday, I noticed a missing bolt on a TerraFirma wheel bead lock (right rear). Upon closer inspection, I noticed several bolts were askew. Looking further, I saw that the nuts were missing.

Not only that, for several, so was the section of bolt to which the nuts should have been attached. Others still had the nut and a piece of the threaded section so they looked intact but were, if fact, snapped. They were 8.8 high tensile.

A quick bit of work removed the broken bolts.

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I went and checked the other wheels and found the front right had four broken bolts, front left had 2, the left rears had one each.

Of the six wheels, five had broken bolts. (Perentie 6x6)

Perhaps if you run these wheels, it might pay to check the bolts.

[twr7cx]

Is this part of the reasoning why beadlocks aren't legal for road use?

Can you get nylock nuts in there instead or Loctite to reduce the chances of reoccurring?

[p38arover]

The nuts were nylocs.
Your comment about legality makes me wonder if they are true bead locks or just a dress rim.

[Tombie]

Iirc they do both

[twr7cx]

The nuts were nylocs.

Ah sorry, I just reread and realised that the bolts broke rather than worked their way out. Hopefully just cheap bolts and replacing with decent ones will solve happening again.

[Tombie]

Ah sorry, I just reread and realised that the bolts broke rather than worked their way out. Hopefully just cheap bolts and replacing with decent ones will solve happening again.

Not unexpected from Cheap made Terrafirma gear!

[prelude]

I have almost the same terrafirma beadlock wheels (TF107 from the top of my head) for the D2/P38. Just to put one thing straight: these rims are made in italy by a company called rvs. Not sure how much better his makes them as opposed to chinese :)

In any case, I too was missing a handfull of bolts from the front only, all broken. I wondered if I had used the wrong torque setting, wrong tyre presure or whatever but I could not figure it out so I replaced all the bolts with stainless steel ones. I too am puzzled as to what caused this but I did notice whilst replacing the bolts with the SS ones some of them were REALLY tight, no wonder some others had actually broken. Perhaps temperature and different expansion rates of rubber and alloy (and the bolts) plays a part here.

I would love to hear how you torqued them and to what setting. I have found it REALLY difficult to get this job done, 26 bolts per wheel and torquing them means that you have to go over them numerous times since rubber is pliable and once you got one round of torquing done, the bolts next to the one you just set are too loose again. Round and round (well in a cross pattern of course) you go untill all of them are about right. It took me close to an hour per wheel to get them done.

Also, getting the wheel on perfectly straight is a bit of a challenge. I could not get the wobble out of my wheels so I resorted to using a (not sure about the english name) lathe or tyre truer on which you mount the wheels and a small portion of rubber is ground of making them true round. On MTR's with 18mm of profile depth I could loose 1mm ;)

PS to be completely honest, I found it next to impossible to truly go in a cross pattern so I crossbolted them in pairs.

Cheers,
-P

[Tombie]

Are you saying you put Stainless into Alloy? That’s likely to react, so keep an eye on them.

So TF has gone Spa for Alloys? That’s a bit more reassuring (and surprising)

[weeds]

The nuts were nylocs.
Your comment about legality makes me wonder if they are true bead locks or just a dress rim.

Is there actually nuts?

I l’m lost how you would assemble with nuts, although I have no experience with Bead Locks.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Method Racing Beadlocks run 22lb on the bolts,, checked every 200miles.

If i was serious enough to warrant running beadlocks I would be "building" them myself and doing the maintenance.

[trout1105]

I have No experience whatsoever with beadlock rims so I have questions about them.
Are these a similar setup as the old split rims where you can take off the beadlock to change a tyre without having to break the bead.
Is there an added cost when getting tyres fitted because of the beadlock?
Is there a REAL advantage in running these rims as opposed to standard alloys or steel rims?

[Lockee]

Lots of advantages and disadvantages .

If you are running pressures low enough to need them you will already be considering bead engagement.

Have ran a few different ones and need to be vigilant with checking bolts.

Now my dilemma is to fit second airs or weld a kit to my eastern wheel works.

I would run 12.9 instead of 8.8 bolts

[p38arover]

Is there actually nuts?

I l’m lost how you would assemble with nuts, although I have no experience with Bead Locks.

Yes there are. See this pic from another Defender2.net:

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From this pic from Defender2.net and a description of the wheel on Terra Firma's site, it seems the outer can be a dress rim or a bead lock, depending on how the tyre is fitted:

140822

Terrafirma Lock rings and bolt kit | Wheels - Alloy Wheels Accessories for Land Rover Vehicles (http://www.terrafirma4x4.com/products_php.php?cat=7&grp=250)

I'm not sure if the rings on the 6x6 are fitted as bead locks or not. They look like it.

[fitzy]

I would assume the bottom photo is drilled and tapped , the tyre can go inside ( traditional) or outside. If outside the top photo locking ring is placed over the tyre and the bolts pass through the ring and into the threaded holes. No nuts.
Then I just zoomed in on the photo ,
But I don’t know how the top photo can work

[weeds]

Yes there are. See this pic from another Defender2.net:

140821

From this pic from Defender2.net and a description of the wheel on Terra Firma's site, it seems the outer can be a dress rim or a bead lock, depending on how the tyre is fitted:

140822

Terrafirma Lock rings and bolt kit | Wheels - Alloy Wheels Accessories for Land Rover Vehicles (http://www.terrafirma4x4.com/products_php.php?cat=7&grp=250)

I'm not sure if the rings on the 6x6 are fitted as bead locks or not. They look like it.

Thanks for that, now I see.....what a bugger of a job doing up bolt and nut.

[prelude]

To put all guessing to rest and to answer a few questions:

You still need to push one tyre bead over the rim since indeed you can run these with or without the beadlock kit. Only having to do one side of the tyre makes it a lot easier though but on the other hand, it turns my 7j rim into something like a 7.5. Since I run 235 tyres my rim has become slightly wide for the tyre. Also, they are nuts and bolts. There are holes in the wheel and ring. Fitting them is on the one hand relatively easy but even when you are of by 1mm the tyre will not sit straight on the rim and you get a wheel that is out of whack :) This is the main reason I had my tyres "shaved" on a lathe to get them perfectly round again and get rid of massive wobbling from around 80kph and up. Also, torquing the bolts/nuts as I already mentioned is one hell of a job. I am not sure if there are any shops that will actually mount tyres on beadlocks since the extra time and effort is pretty big. I would suspect there to be a massive increase in costs associated with that. To put this into perspective; I have worked in a tyre shop when I was young so I actually know quite a bit about that kind of work and I could change tyres on a standard vehicle in 30 minutes, all done. It takes me about 45 at best to do one beadlock wheel... Admittedly, I am still finding my way around them and a shop that does a lot of them could be quicker, but still...

Re how to mount the nuts: the outside rim bead bed (not sure how that is called :P) actually "folds over" back to the inside of the wheel. It is about as thick if not a bit thicker than the rim itself and there is a space between the inside of the rim and the folded back bead bed. The gap that is created is big enough to fit a nylock nut into (and a pair of fingers, provided they are not to big). YOu just stick a wrench in there over the nut and torque the bolt from the top, that's it. A lot more work this way then having a threaded bead bed but this way you can have a sheared bolt, screwed up thread on the nut, whatever without having to go through serious trouble fixing the rim back up, just toss away the garbage and pick a new bolt and nut.

Indeed alloy and ss will react (electrolysis) but since I do not thread them into the alloy it is going to be ok. I do use mounting paste on almost every other part of my car but the holes in the rims fill up with sand and stuff so there is not much use in applying it there.

Having said that, I can run 5psi under difficult circumstances and I have never lost a bead yet.

Retorque every 200 miles is a lot of work :no2: I do check the bolts regularly like I check most things on the vehicle but I never tested them with a torque wrench. I might consider doing that for a while to see if I can find correlation / reason for the bolts shearing.

Back to the OP's original problem (and mine as it turns out)
I can not imagine the bolts having sheered due to sideways load, ie the ring shifting in relation to the rim perhaps due to rotation (slipping) of the tyre. As far as I can tell it's pure vertical force that is the culprit here. That in turn makes me wonder how this could happen when bolts are properly torqued. Torquing is done when the tyre is empty and only pressurized afterwards. I find it hard to believe though that the relatively small amount of pressure we put in our tyres, divided over 26 bolts would cause them to snap. Perhaps heating and cooling plays a part. I have used my wheels for over a year before I noticed the problem and I had also not run low pressures on the tarmac before I noticed the problem. ie. I ran low pressures on mud at low speeds but always aired up when returning to tarmac. A month or so ago though, I did a track through the morvan in france which involved short sections of windy tarmac (5k's at most usually) at relatively low speeds (60kph at most) in which I did not air up again. It was only after this trip I started having bolts sheer of. Perhaps there is a relation.

Cheers,
-P

[Dorian]

but I did notice whilst replacing the bolts with the SS ones some of them were

I concur with Tombie, if your putting Satinless in to Ally you should consider using Tef-gel Tef-Gel Corrosion Eleminator & Anti-Seize Lubricant 10g , $14.99 | Whitworths Marine (https://www.whitworths.com.au/tef-gel-corrosion-eleminator-anti-seize-lubricant-10g) or Duralac Duralac Jointing Compound 115ml, $34.95 | Whitworths Marine (https://www.whitworths.com.au/duralac-jointing-compound-115ml), especially if you've got water in the mix. I prefer Tef-Gel because it also stops the Stainless galling with itself.

I would run 12.9 instead of 8.8 bolts

The problem might be fatigue instead of strength, if so going higher grade bolt may not help that much

Pic of failure due to strength or lack there of
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Pic of failure from fatigue

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Although I suppose the only practical way to find out is to change them as see what happens.

Cheers Glen

[prelude]

Judging by the pictures I would go with fatigue in my case. I'll see if I can dig on of the old bolts up to check. Fatigue would suggest that they are potentially over torqued? I guess that when the wheel rotates different pressure is applied (certainly in corners) on the bolt as the sidewall flexes placing a different load on the bead-ring... just a thought for now. Else it could be the many heating and cooling cycles of the wheels varying the force on the bolts. Still over torquing I would guess.

I use a similar mounting paste over here, one that is also usuable up to 1200c. I have my entire care put together with that stuff :) Only thing is, lock-tite and that paste are mutually exclusive ;)

Cheers,

-P

[Dorian]

Judging by the pictures I would go with fatigue in my case. I'll see if I can dig on of the old bolts up to check. Fatigue would suggest that they are potentially over torqued? I guess that when the wheel rotates different pressure is applied (certainly in corners) on the bolt as the sidewall flexes placing a different load on the bead-ring... just a thought for now. Else it could be the many heating and cooling cycles of the wheels varying the force on the bolts. Still over torquing I would guess.
-P
Apologies, missed the reply.
Those are my thoughts as well, if they are torqued up to their yield strength any further stress will start the fatigue cycle. There is a bit of yin&yan about higher strength bolts. You can gain some margin because the bolt has a higher yield strength but the down side is once it goes pas this point it will fatigue a lot quicker.

Cheers Glen

[p38arover]

I would assume the bottom photo is drilled and tapped , the tyre can go inside ( traditional) or outside. If outside the top photo locking ring is placed over the tyre and the bolts pass through the ring and into the threaded holes. No nuts.

No, the holes aren't threaded.

[fitzy]

YouTube (https://youtu.be/oRWdXiZ9Azs)
Last comment on vid
( torque it 4 million times)

[trout1105]

I had a look at these and although the outer rim is bolted the inner rim is standard, What is to stop the tyre coming off on the inner rim?

[fitzy]

I assume it’s clamping force and the lip on the locking ring in bead lock mode

[Marty90]

I had a look at these and although the outer rim is bolted the inner rim is standard, What is to stop the tyre coming off on the inner rim?I've never had anything to do with beadlocks, nor really understood how they work but if I'm correct,the tyre can be fitted like a regular rim ,or if you're using the beadlock,the outer lip of the tyre stays on the outside of the rim,then sandwiched in place with the beadlocks. Is that correct?

[donh54]

I had a look at these and although the outer rim is bolted the inner rim is standard, What is to stop the tyre coming off on the inner rim?Many wheels can only have the tyre mounted from one side, the inner rim is higher.
I heard a comment once (10 or so years ago) from a desert racer type, that the problem nowadays is that a lot of beadlocks are made more for show, than for serious use.
AFAIR his were threaded into the rim, and his pit crew were always complaining about the number of times they had to torque the bolts down after fitting new tyres.

[prelude]

Indeed, the outside rim lip is easier to get a tyre on then the inside rim lip. Also, the wheel itself has a large flat bed that is fairly high on the inside side of the wheel. This means that you need to put in quite a bit of effort to actually move the rubber over this part and you can move it quite a bit before loosing grip/air tightness. ie you can actually have the tyre slide over it for about an inch or two at least without it loosing a lot of air, if any. Dirt will get in and start causing trouble but at least you still have air in your tyres and can soldier on untill you get to a flat surface to clean stuff out in stead of being stopped dead in your tracks. Also, usually the forces are placed on the outside of the wheel or at least they take the most force so you want to lock your bead on that side over in the inside. You can do both (but not with these terrafirma wheels).

All in all I think they are useful but a royal pain in the backside to mount. I would think that the comment about modern beadlocks being poser rims has some truth to it. After all, these are alloy rims and for really hard wheeling steelies are still preferred I believe.

-P