D3 Brake/Clutch fluid flush

[BradC]

So it's that time. When we bought the car, the first service we had the Indy do Diffs, Gearbox, Transfer Case, Engine oil & Coolant. When quizzed about the power steering and brake we were told they had test kits and never did a change unless the test kit indicated it was required. PS fluid is next years project.

The Landrover service sheet seems to indicate a 3 yr replacement for the brake fluid and having rebuilt brakes on 2 cars because the previous owners *never* flushed and the calipers were full of grunge, I'd like to do it properly.

I have a Motive power bleeder (which I love) and a lazy-mans Mity-vac equivalent (which I hate). The motive fits on the fluid reservoir, so I can pressure flush if I need to. I was wondering though as there seems to be some sly intimation that you can use the IID Tool and the ABS to flush the brakes, but I can find no concrete details on if and how.

Does anyone have a neat trick for a fluid replacement or do I just pump up the motive and push it through? I'll have to pressure flush the clutch, but I can do that without putting fluid in the Motive and just use air on the reservoir. The brakes use quite a bit more fluid.

On brakes, does anyone do the 6 yearly hose replacement specced in the service sheet?

[shanegtr]

I did a brake flush a couple of months ago. I thought that the IID would use the ABS unit to pump the fluid through the lines but it didnt do that for me - I think it seemed to be more the ABS pump activating to ensure fresh fluid is flushed through the unit. Not sure if anyone has had a different experiance to this?

I flush my brake lines every 2 years on all my vehicles (expect the toyota's I've had in the past as they still spec DOT 3 fluid and that absorbs water at a faster rate than DOT 4)

[BradC]

Yeah, I do 2 yrs as a matter of course. Out of interest, what fluid did you use?
i just picked up some Penrite ESP as that appears to meet the spec.

[DiscoJeffster]

I use the Motive bleeder. Push it through as normal. The IID couldn’t do brakes last time I did mine but will see what it does next time. I used factory fluid last time as it was easier to get and I wanted to use the exact spec as it’s a very specific consistency. There are only a couple of aftermarket equivalents.

[shanegtr]

Yeah, I do 2 yrs as a matter of course. Out of interest, what fluid did you use?
i just picked up some Penrite ESP as that appears to meet the spec.
I just use Penrite Super DOT 4 as its easily obtainable where I am. I think I might purchase one of those motive power bleeders for my next change. I also have a mity-vac and I find its not the best (at least not compared to what I was expecting from it years ago when I purchased it)

[BradC]

I just use Penrite Super DOT 4 as its easily obtainable where I am. I think I might purchase one of those motive power bleeders for my next change. I also have a mity-vac and I find its not the best (at least not compared to what I was expecting from it years ago when I purchased it)

I've had the motive for about 6 years and it has been fabulous. It does tend to waste a bit of fluid and can be a bit messy if you're not careful. This time around I'm going to try the "dry" technique and just use it to pressurise the reservoir, refilling after each corner. The reservoir on the disco is a lot bigger than on some of my other cars, so it shouldn't be too onerous and will save both fluid and a cleanup at the end.

I put a quick coupler on the motive adapter yesterday, so I'll just hook it up to a spare air regulator to save pumping up the bottle all the time. Of course given how things usually go on this car, I bet the reg fails and I blow the reservoir off the master cylinder.

i bought a mityvac clone last year for a fluid change on my Volvo, but the motive moves the fluid much faster and doesn't get bubbles in the hose. With a vacuum on the bleed nipple I can't stop it pulling air past the threads, so I can't actually tell if the bubbles are "more bleeding required" or just an artefact of the process.

i did check and the Penrite ESP meets the required standard for the D3.

[DiscoJeffster]

I use my Motive dry. It’s a pain in the arse tbh as you’re constantly removing and topping up but wastes less.

[PeterOZ]

hmmm interesting thread as I'm wanting to flush my brakes on the D3. I have a IID tool but have not explored what it might be able to do as yet.

some questions which will seem dumb t those expereinced in this work.

- Is there a particular motive power bleeder gadget I should consider?
- What is the OEM brake fluid to get?
- is it only the 4 calipers to be bled?
- process for doing the ABS?

Have bled brakes on old trucks and previous 4WD before by the old method of somebody pumping up the brakes while you bleed at the nipple.
I'm assuming you can't do that on the D3/4??
ta
cheers
P

[shanegtr]

Have bled brakes on old trucks and previous 4WD before by the old method of somebody pumping up the brakes while you bleed at the nipple.
I'm assuming you can't do that on the D3/4??
ta
cheers
PYou can still do that if you like, apart from the addition of the ABS module theres really no difference to the brake system of old. I was hopping the last time I did my brakes that my IID tool would be able to use the ABS system to bleed - but no it activates the ABS pump but dosent pump anything through the brake lines. Must only circulate the fluid through the module itself

[101RRS]

Have bled brakes on old trucks and previous 4WD before by the old method of somebody pumping up the brakes while you bleed at the nipple.
I'm assuming you can't do that on the D3/4??
ta
cheers
P

Of course you can [thumbsupbig] the D3/D4 is really no different to an old 48 landie in this respect. Start with the caliper further from the the master - passenger rear, driver rear, passenger front and driver front.

Pump/bleed as you have always done - too easy. The master and abs will normally take care of itself.

People with these cars seem to want to make things harder than it needs to be - basic principles apply to all cars.

I buy my brake fluid from the dealer - found it is cheaper and is of course the correct stuff.

garry

[PeterOZ]

thanks mate I like simple. [bigwhistle]
Did loads of brakes, bleeding, and other work on my Dads old Bedfords, Dodge and Inters when I was growing up.

Most difficult part will be getting somebody to come over to lend a foot!

What brake fluid does the stealer have this it is considered to be "the precious" ?

Stealer is a short walk from work but their parts outlet is 10 min drive from here.


Have always been worried about doing any work on my D3 which I've had since new due to supposed complexity and worried about stuffing things up. Main worry is having correct tools to do various jobs and as I live alone I don't have a second vehcile to run off and get bits.

Vehcile is appraching 11 years and its time I started to do things myself instead of paying huge sums to indies for services etc.
Major stuff I would still get it done, top/bottom control arms, box and drive line work etc

services, brakes, sway bar ends and sway bar bushes plus air struts I can do myself.

Building up a spreadsheet to document consumable parts and fluids, man that is a challenge in itself.

[101RRS]

Most difficult part will be getting somebody to come over to lend a foot!

What brake fluid does the stealer have this it is considered to be "the precious" ?



If you have a clear tube and a bottle with spare fluid in it - bleed the brakes yourself. I also live on my own and have to do things by myself - makes you more inventive on how to deal with things and plan ahead - especially if you only have one vehicle.

i do my own brakes and when looking for the correct brake fluid it was simply cheaper to buy the LR branded product from the dealer. For sure you might get the fluid cheaper from Supercheap or the Shell garage when it is on special but the every day price was certainly cheaper for 1 litre bottles the last time I bought at the dealer.

[loanrangie]

1-2 m of hose and a glass jar with a lid is all you need for one man bleeding. Put a hole in the lid so the hose is tight and place it as high as possible, open the nipple and pump til the bubbles stop. Tighten nipple and move to the next one.

[PeterOZ]

If you have a clear tube and a bottle with spare fluid in it - bleed the brakes yourself. I also live on my own and have to do things by myself - makes you more inventive on how to deal with things and plan ahead - especially if you only have one vehicle.

i do my own brakes and when looking for the correct brake fluid it was simply cheaper to buy the LR branded product from the dealer. For sure you might get the fluid cheaper from Supercheap or the Shell garage when it is on special but the every day price was certainly cheaper for 1 litre bottles the last time I bought at the dealer.

Ive done that before using a lump of wood wedged on brake pedal once I had it pumped up. Far easier if you can coax a mate over with offers of coffee or beer. In his case Sav Blanc as he is a kiwi.

Got clear tube and a old milk container.

[101RRS]

Yes anything is easier if you have a mate over (though sometimes a hindrance) but is not absolutely needed.

[Towcar]

Yes anything is easier if you have a mate over (though sometimes a hindrance) but is not absolutely needed.

Hi Garry,
Did you do this with the car running? 2010 RRS. Or just with ignition on?
Cheers

[BradC]

Right, so I finally got around to doing this flush today. At the risk of proving I'm a muppet, I'm going to detail my "lessons learned" in the hope that it saves another muppet in the future.

I used the "dry motive" method, but used the motive adapter on the end of a compressed air regulator set to 20psi instead of the pump up bottle.

Firstly. When I had my indie do a full set of fluids (nearly 2 years ago now) I asked about the brakes. Their reply was they test the fluid and only replace it if it needs replacing and ours didn't. Remember that for later.

Lesson 1 : Need bigger jack stands. Mine were at full extension on the chassis and I still needed an extra 3 inches from the jack on one side to get all 4 wheels off the ground.
Lesson 2 : A D3 is heavy. I know that, but the difference between knowing and feeling is something else. I don't want to be underneath it on stands with the wheels off. It's scary. Maybe I'll buy 8.
Lesson 3 : Landrover wheel lugs laugh at my 1/2" pneumatic rattle gun (the one I used to call the "bolt snapper"). It loosened 2 out of 20. The rest needed a 2ft breaker bar and enough manpower to ensure I'll be sore tomorrow.
Lesson 4 : Landrover wheels are a bit heavier than the 15" alloys I'm used to throwing around.
Lesson 5 : The D3 master cylinder reservoir holds a *lot* of fluid.
Lesson 6 : I need a bigger torque wrench to properly tighten the lugs.

As I couldn't seem to remove the filter and the reservoir is partitioned I drained as much fluid as I could via vacuum in the reservoir, then *through* the system and out the wheel cylinders until it was as empty as I was game to make it on each partition. I didn't do the clutch as there was no way I was getting under that thing on my flimsy stands + jack with the wheels off. I needed a set of steps to reach the M/C as it was!

So that fluid I was told was ok? In the reservoir it was a kinda darker "I've been there a while" colour I'm used to from old fluid. From the rear calipers it was more like "2 year old Volvo transmission fluid" and from the front calipers it was somewhat akin to "4 year old diesel oil". I've *never* seen brake fluid in that state. It was *foul*.

So. 500ml of Penrite ESP in the reservoir and 20psi behind it. Pull a bit from all 4 calipers in sequence until it's looking fresher. Repeat with another 500ml and it looks even better, and then a final 500ml to top up and bleed out from the furthest points to drop the level to "max". I didn't do the ABS cycle as frankly after doing the brakes on a Golf, then the flush on the D3 I was knackered. Plus it was hot, and I could hear a cold beer calling.

I will say with such a large reservoir, using the dry pressure method really makes sense. Having said that, not having to pump up the motive and just turn the valve to apply pressure and pop the connector to release it make it a shedload easier.

Next time I'm under the car I'll do the clutch. I imagine given its location and proximity to heat it'll be somewhere between the rear and front calipers in condition. Probably not nice.

So :
- Crack the lugs while it's on the ground. Trying to chock the wheels to do it in the air isn't fun.
- Use the right sized axle stands.
- Ignore anyone who says brake fluid only needs flushing when it fails a test (I knew that anyway bit I wanted to reinforce it) as while the fluid in the reservoir might be fine, it certainly won't be pretty in the cylinders.
- And finally, pay someone with the right tools to make it look easy (or have a radox bath and a packet of Voltaren on standby).

Oh, and VW Golf screw-in rear caliper pistons are the work of the devil.

[PeterOZ]

any hints on the special air adaptor you fitted to the motive?

Don't blame you not wanting to get under the D3, I'm paranoid about it. I put the wheels back under so at least you have that width in case of something going pear shaped.

I'll probably flush mine over the Christmas break but will depend on how my sore back is coping.

[BradC]

any hints on the special air adaptor you fitted to the motive?



Yeah. The motive has a brass coupling between the bottle and the adapter. The adapter has a 1/4" NPT female on it and given the similarity between NPT and BSP below 3/8" a standard 1/4" male quick coupler screwed straight in with a bit of tape. I'll get a photo tonight to make it clear.

[DiscoJeffster]

I like my motive however I do use it dry bottle at 15psi.

[BradC]

Got it the wrong way around. Male is on the adapter and the Motive is the female. I put a valve on there so I can pump it up and then shut the valve. I did that so I could pressurise the reservoir and then swap the compressed air line across to the mity-vac, so I could get a kinda blow-suck happening. In reality I just use the mity-vac as a catch bottle, but the valve is nice as I can pop the coupler off the regulator and then de-pressurise slowly with the valve.



http://www.fnarfbargle.com/private/181203-Motive-Mod/IMG_0842.JPG

[BradC]

any hints on the special air adaptor you fitted to the motive?

Don't blame you not wanting to get under the D3, I'm paranoid about it. I put the wheels back under so at least you have that width in case of something going pear shaped.

I'll probably flush mine over the Christmas break but will depend on how my sore back is coping.

Having a look at the bleeders, I'm not sure with the right-angle adapter on the mity-vac that I can't flush them with the wheels on. I just need to get a smaller/thinner 11mm spanner. For everything else I put the car as high as it'll legally go using the iid tool (whatever off-road mode + whatever it'll let me add) and then just put stands under the chassis rails. If I can get to them from behind it'll be easier to do next time, although I still need to take the back wheels off to do the handbrake adjustment.

[shanegtr]

Lesson 3 : Landrover wheel lugs laugh at my 1/2" pneumatic rattle gun (the one I used to call the "bolt snapper"). It loosened 2 out of 20. The rest needed a 2ft breaker bar and enough manpower to ensure I'll be sore tomorrow.

Lesson 6 : I need a bigger torque wrench to properly tighten the lugs.



Torque is only 140Nm on the wheel nuts so not overly tight - 1/2" rattle gun should easily undo these. Sounds like the last person to touch them has seriously overtighten them

[BradC]

Torque is only 140Nm on the wheel nuts so not overly tight - 1/2" rattle gun should easily undo these. Sounds like the last person to touch them has seriously overtighten them

Unfortunately that's pretty normal for this vehicle and a big part of why I started doing my own maintenance.