Steering Relay 2A Versus Series 3

[Lionelgee]

Hello All,

Can anyone let me know whether there are any differences between a 1963 Series 2A steering relay and a later Series 3 made around 1974-78?

Kind regards
Lionel

[gromit]

Lionel,
I think they're the same from Series I to Series III apart from the filler.
It used to be a bolt in the centre of the shaft but then became one of the four bolts that hold the endcap on.


Colin

[JDNSW]

They are fully interchangeable. There were changes over time, the most notable one being the one Colin points out - early 2a had a filler on top of the shaft with a plug, and an vent plug on the side at the top. These were replaced in later ones by using the top cover bolt holes.

It is possible that early 2a ones used BSF threads, but this only means you need to use the right bolts. Far more changes were made during 2a production than during 3 production.

[123rover50]

Dont use the one with the bolt in the shaft. The shaft is hollow and can break. I know because one snapped on me once.

[B.S.F.]

Dont use the one with the bolt in the shaft. The shaft is hollow and can break. I know because one snapped on me once.

Hi Keith
Just out of curiosity, were you running standard 6.00/7.00 size tyres ?
.W.

[123rover50]

Hi Keith
Just out of curiosity, were you running standard 6.00/7.00 size tyres ?
.W.

No Wally you are pretty safe.
It was in the Forward Control with 900 x 16 tyres.
When I got it going in Bougainville back in the 70,s., the relay was stuffed and the only spare I had was from a Series one so I used it then forgot about it.
It broke during weed spraying on the Sunshine Coast in the 80,s. Luckly it was greased up and did not take long to whack another in. A solid shaft this time.
Still, I would not use one out of choice in an everyday drive.

[gromit]

Possibly more strain on it in a Forward Control, haven't heard of a problem in Series I's.

More importantly, beware of 'aftermarket' relays despite sellers comments like "OEM supplier", "OEM quality", "OEM manufacturer". They are typically made in India and the supplier is not the original supplier to Land Rover !
If possible repair an original.


Colin

[Lionelgee]

Possibly more strain on it in a Forward Control, haven't heard of a problem in Series I's.

More importantly, beware of 'aftermarket' relays despite sellers comments like "OEM supplier", "OEM quality", "OEM manufacturer". They are typically made in India and the supplier is not the original supplier to Land Rover !
If possible repair an original.


Colin

Hello Colin,

Thank you for the hint about "after-market" relays. I am lucky enough to have some relays in some "spares" chassis. One is even sitting on the back of a trailer at a very convenient height. The spare relays are all Series 3 - which is why I started the thread. Best check before proceeding and making avoidable mistakes.

Getting the relay out of the ambulance could be the real challenge though.

Perhaps the extra weight of the ambulance body could have contributed to the relay ceasing. Oh - apart from the obvious lack of maintenance that the vehicle had beforehand.

Kind regards
Lionel

[gromit]

Thank you for the hint about "after-market" relays.



Lionel,
I think they seize because nobody ever checks them so the oil falls out and the water gets in.
I've found them with grease nipples fitted. Grease doesn't really work well in them because it's easily displaced, semi-liquid might be OK though......

Every one I've removed had water in it so replace the seals but make sure you get the seals from a bearing supplier not a LR parts supplier !
Check the oil level on a regular basis and probably worth draining & re-filling occasionally to make sure no water has found it's way in. Not so important if it's a garaged trailer queen........

I have a couple overhauled & ready to install, all the internal parts are available so if the shaft & body are OK the rest is straightforward.



Colin


Colin

[Lionelgee]

Lionel,
I think they seize because nobody ever checks them so the oil falls out and the water gets in.
I've found them with grease nipples fitted. Grease doesn't really work well in them because it's easily displaced, semi-liquid might be OK though......

Every one I've removed had water in it so replace the seals but make sure you get the seals from a bearing supplier not a LR parts supplier !
Check the oil level on a regular basis and probably worth draining & re-filling occasionally to make sure no water has found it's way in. Not so important if it's a garaged trailer queen........

I have a couple overhauled & ready to install, all the internal parts are available so if the shaft & body are OK the rest is straightforward.



Colin


Colin

G'day Colin,

Did you go in to the bearing place with just the old seals, or did you take the whole relay unit in to them?

Is there anything else that you had to replace when you inspected the relays before you fitted them?

I have had the Green Bible (Series 3) open at the steering relay pages since last night. Can you find the link to your steering relay section on Gromit - or has it fallen to the photobucket change? According to the Green book I have to put a spring balance on the shopping list too!

Kind regards
Lionel

[gromit]

G'day Colin,

Did you go in to the bearing place with just the old seals, or did you take the whole relay unit in to them?

Is there anything else that you had to replace when you inspected the relays before you fitted them?

I have had the Green Bible (Series 3) open at the steering relay pages since last night. Can you find the link to your steering relay section on Gromit - or has it fallen to the photobucket change? According to the Green book I have to put a spring balance on the shopping list too!

Kind regards
Lionel

Lionel,
Take the old seal in, they won't be too happy if you turn up with the whole relay. I can probably find the seal size somewhere.
Replace the gaskets at each end.
If the spring is badly rusted you might want to replace it.
There are a couple of thin washers that separate the spring from the Tufnol bushes, these rust if water has got in. Available from the usual suspects.
The Tufnol bushes might be worn but usually they're OK and finally the big brass thrust washers, again unusual to see them badly worn.
If the tapered sections on the shaft are rust pitted it's going to wear the Tufnol bushes quickly. A lathe and some emery paper can sometimes solve the problem.

Not sure why you need a spring balance.....to check there's enough friction when assembled ?? Never used on on a steering relay before.

I replaced some of the pictures in my Wallit thread, can't remember if I got up to the steering relay. I'll have a look later.


Colin




Colin

[Lionelgee]

Lionel,
Take the old seal in, they won't be too happy if you turn up with the whole relay. I can probably find the seal size somewhere.
Replace the gaskets at each end.
If the spring is badly rusted you might want to replace it.
There are a couple of thin washers that separate the spring from the Tufnol bushes, these rust if water has got in. Available from the usual suspects.
The Tufnol bushes might be worn but usually they're OK and finally the big brass thrust washers, again unusual to see them badly worn.
If the tapered sections on the shaft are rust pitted it's going to wear the Tufnol bushes quickly. A lathe and some emery paper can sometimes solve the problem.

Not sure why you need a spring balance.....to check there's enough friction when assembled ?? Never used on on a steering relay before.

I replaced some of the pictures in my Wallit thread, can't remember if I got up to the steering relay. I'll have a look later.


Colin




Colin


Hello Colin,

Thank you for the offer of tracking down the seal size Colin.

The Green Bible - page 57-7 Point 29... "Temporarily attach the upper relay lever and use a suitable spring balance to check resistance to rotation of the relay shaft. The resistance measured on the spring balance must be not less than 6.8 kg and should not exceed 12.2 kg. If the resistance is less than 5.4 kg fit a new spring..."

Kind regards
Lionel

[Lionelgee]

Hello All,

Is there usually some degree of movement between the steering wheel and the steering relay? Would a totally ceased steering wheel point more to a damaged steering column and steering box, than the steering relay?

When I mean ceased at the steering wheel ... I am over six foot tall and too beefy with it - I was hanging off the steering wheel and it did not move a hair's breadth. Same lack of side-ways movement again when the tyres were gripped, leant on, and levered while the vehicle was being winched and the tyres were revolving.

As Pop058 suggested, I will be undoing the steering drop arm off the bottom of the steering box to see if there is any movement. Then I will track back down to checking out the amount of movement in the steering relay and checking out the tie rods. The metal at the base of the steering box cover and the bolts that secure it to the firewall are highly corroded.

Due to a change in ADR's there was a difference in 2A steering columns and steering boxes in the Series 3. How readily available are Series 2A steering column and steering box parts?

My apologies for all the questions. My introduction to 2As only stretches back a couple of months compared to a number of years with Series 3s so the 2A territory is pretty new to me

Kind regards
Lionel

[gromit]

Hello All,

Is there usually some degree of movement between the steering wheel and the steering relay? Would a totally ceased steering wheel point more to a damaged steering column and steering box, than the steering relay?

When I mean ceased at the steering wheel ... I am over six foot tall and too beefy with it - I was hanging off the steering wheel and it did not move a hair's breadth. Same lack of side-ways movement again when the tyres were gripped, leant on, and levered while the vehicle was being winched and the tyres were revolving.

As Pop058 suggested, I will be undoing the steering drop arm off the bottom of the steering box to see if there is any movement. Then I will track back down to checking out the amount of movement in the steering relay and checking out the tie rods. The metal at the base of the steering box cover and the bolts that secure it to the firewall are highly corroded.

Due to a change in ADR's there was a difference in 2A steering columns and steering boxes in the Series 3. How readily available are Series 2A steering column and steering box parts?

My apologies for all the questions. My introduction to 2As only stretches back a couple of months compared to a number of years with Series 3s so the 2A territory is pretty new to me

Kind regards
Lionel

Lionel,
What was the change in ADR’s ?
Steering lock on later SIII’s ?

if there’s a problem with the steering column find a better one. Parts will be thin on the ground.

Rather than second guessing I’d be undoing track rods etc to determine where the problem actually is.

Colin

[Lionelgee]

Lionel,
What was the change in ADR’s ?
Steering lock on later SIII’s ?

if there’s a problem with the steering column find a better one. Parts will be thin on the ground.

Rather than second guessing I’d be undoing track rods etc to determine where the problem actually is.

Colin

Hello Colin,

The change in ADRs found the Series 3 had a change of steering wheel. There was also the split plastic cover over the column. Plus the fitting of the combined indicator/horn stalk. Along with the padded dashboard. I am not sure whether the steering column and the steering box changed its design or not - whether the changes were purely on its external cosmetics?

I really need to track down those 2A manuals I was given years ago and I put in a "safe place".

P.S. According to Rovers North's parts page the changes to the steering column and steering box between Series 2, 2A and 3 were only external cosmetics. Accessed 19th of July 2018 from Series II, IIA, III, Steering Column | Rovers North - Land Rover Parts and Accessories Since 1979 (https://www.roversnorth.com/Land-Rover-Parts/58) The main mechanical parts seem to be common between the three models.

All this is good news!

Kind regards
Lionel

[JDNSW]

The major change to steering components during Series 2/2a/3 production were:-

1. Very early Series 2a change of swivels from spring loaded conical brass bush to tufnol Railko bush.

2. About the same time - steering arm moved from top to bottom of swivel.

3. 1967, chassis suffix 'C', change from wire spoked to plastic spoked steering wheel. This involved a change from a clamp fitting steering wheel to a taper plus nut (both also have spline). The columns (and hence steering box) are not interchangeable except as a complete unit including the wheel. The earlier wheel would be very difficult to use with the Series 3 combined switch arrangement. Steering wheels, while looking identical and fully interchangeable were much improved in durability in late Series 3 production.

4. Late Series 3. Australian Landrovers were fitted with the previously optional steering lock to meet ADR requirements.

Steering dampers were always an optional fitting on Series Landrovers, but seem to have been fitted to all Australian delivered ones from some time in Series 3 production. As far as I can determine this is not an ADR requirement but is a response to their fitting as standard on competitors after a long period of upselling by dealers. They are not required for on road use, but are intended to prevent violent kickback offroad.

[Lionelgee]

The major change to steering components during Series 2/2a/3 production were:-

1. Very early Series 2a change of swivels from spring loaded conical brass bush to tufnol Railko bush.

2. About the same time - steering arm moved from top to bottom of swivel.

3. 1967, chassis suffix 'C', change from wire spoked to plastic spoked steering wheel. This involved a change from a clamp fitting steering wheel to a taper plus nut (both also have spline). The columns (and hence steering box) are not interchangeable except as a complete unit including the wheel. The earlier wheel would be very difficult to use with the Series 3 combined switch arrangement. Steering wheels, while looking identical and fully interchangeable were much improved in durability in late Series 3 production.

4. Late Series 3. Australian Landrovers were fitted with the previously optional steering lock to meet ADR requirements.

Steering dampers were always an optional fitting on Series Landrovers, but seem to have been fitted to all Australian delivered ones from some time in Series 3 production. As far as I can determine this is not an ADR requirement but is a response to their fitting as standard on competitors after a long period of upselling by dealers. They are not required for on road use, but are intended to prevent violent kickback offroad.


Hello John,

So does this mean that a Series 2A made in September 1963 would require different parts for a steering column - steering box - steering relay rebuild than what was fitted to a 1974-78 Series 3?

Kind regards
Lionel

[JDNSW]

The only parts that are different, or not interchangeable are the steering box and the steering wheel. Strictly speaking the steering box is the same except for the steering column, but you probably don't want to be swapping the parts on a steering box. The relay is the same, or at least interchangeable, as are the steering arm on the relay and steering box and the link between the pitman arm and the relay. Although note that the tie rod ends should be different and not interchangeable, although the complete link is.

[gromit]

Thank you for the offer of tracking down the seal size Colin.



Lionel,

Seal size is :-

1 1/2" OD
1 1/8" ID
1/4" thick

Hopefully someone at your local bearing shop understands imperial measurements .....


Colin

[Lionelgee]

Hello All,

A quick update from a couple of weeks ago. When I first started spraying lanolin-based penetration fluid into and around the steering relay a month or two ago the relay was seized. This makes both the steering box and the steering relay as being seized.

I used my 15 tonne capacity hydraulic puller on the steering relay; along with another can of penetrate. Between the hydraulic pressure and the lubrication the relay came out.

The relay is currently held in a vice and I am continuing spraying the penetration fluid into it. I will dismantle it and see how things look inside.

Kind regards
Lionel