Pilot shortage causes cancellation on rural Australian routes

[bob10]

Global pilot shortage hits Australia, with cancelled regional routes just the beginning (https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/global-pilot-shortage-hits-australia-with-cancelled-regional-routes-just-the-beginning/ar-BBKUsQs?ocid=spartandhp)

[Bigbjorn]

There are an estimated 800,000 unemployed and under-employed in Australia. How hard is it to train pilots? After all, tens of thousands were trained in a short time during WW2.[biggrin]

[Eevo]

whose got a spare 40k to get trained?

[strangy]

whose got a spare 40k to get trained?

Triple it.

[weeds]

Good opportunity for UBER....

[weeds]

There are an estimated 800,000 unemployed and under-employed in Australia. How hard is it to train pilots? After all, tens of thousands were trained in a short time during WW2.[biggrin]

I’d say a good percentage of the 800,000 wouldn’t have the education to pass the entrance exam.....

[Bigbjorn]

whose got a spare 40k to get trained?

Declare it a tertiary course and the students then repay under the HECS scheme.

[bsperka]

Declare it a tertiary course and the students then repay under the HECS scheme.This is already available. Griffith University offers it, amongst others.

[goingbush]

The country is stuffed, there will be aircrew on 457 Visas soon !!

[Bigbjorn]

I’d say a good percentage of the 800,000 wouldn’t have the education to pass the entrance exam.....

I bet a good percentage of those who flew Lancasters and B17's were clerks, farmers, carpenters, etc. and never finished high school. Are not airliners almost automated these days and the pilots job is to talk to the controllers, take over if something fails, drink coffee, and fondle the stewardesses.[biggrin]

[bsperka]

Every job is easy if you trivialize the effort to know how to do it properly.

[bsperka]

I bet a good percentage of those who flew Lancasters and B17's were clerks, farmers, carpenters, etc. and never finished high school. Are not airliners almost automated these days and the pilots job is to talk to the controllers, take over if something fails, drink coffee, and fondle the stewardesses.[biggrin]Every job is easy if you trivialize the effort to know how to do it properly.

[weeds]

I bet a good percentage of those who flew Lancasters and B17's were clerks, farmers, carpenters, etc. and never finished high school. Are not airliners almost automated these days and the pilots job is to talk to the controllers, take over if something fails, drink coffee, and fondle the stewardesses.[biggrin]

I think you need to enter this era, what happened than is far what happens now.

[weeds]

The country is stuffed, there will be aircrew on 457 Visas soon !!

The world is stuff.....and there ain’t no way to fix it.

[strangy]

The country is stuffed, there will be aircrew on 457 Visas soon !!
There are more than a few on 457 visas already.
I wont post a commentary on this or the operators who participate.

[Hugh Jars]

We already have 457 visa-holding pilots.

That bloke from Rex is a whinger. He got caught out a couple of years ago attempting to exploit vulnerable cadet pilots in an industrially unlawful attempt to force them to work outside their industrial agreement by coercion. The courts found against Rex.

What’s going on with regional airlines is nothing new. Rex’s pilots have been leaving and going to other airlines since the days it was called Hazelton and Kendell. Nifty Nev needs to realise that pilots don’t necessarily see a regional airline as a viable career, especially when Rex has been attacking its pilots T&C’s for more than two decades. When treated this way, pilots only see Rex as a stepping stone to something better.
The same goes for Qantaslink. Until recently, its pilots were predominately actively (and secretly) excluded from career progression into the Qantas mainline operation. So logically, the majority of its pilots (including myself) sought careers outside the Qantas group in companies such as Virgin Australia or overseas, typically the Middle East or Hong Kong. Unsurprisingly, the shortage has suddenly forced a change of heart and now inexplicably, Qantaslink pilots are now suitable to be employed Qantas mainline. Especially if you’re of the female gender[emoji24]

Terms and conditions in the whole aviation industry have been spiralling downwards since 1990. Conditions in other industries have progressively improved (in comparison). It’s no wonder that few people are interested in flying as a career, when they can find a better paying job with less study and training required elsewhere. No problems in other industries with the opportunity to lose your job 3 or more times a year with continual checking your proficiency, etc.

Now, the big (new) problem for the Aussie airlines is the overseas airlines in places like Asia and the Middle East are meeting the market and paying pretty decent rates for experienced expat pilots. This is creating problems for Virgin and Qantas, because typically their experienced pilots are long-termers, ie career pilots that tend not to leave before retirement. Those highly experienced long-termers are looking elsewhere for whatever reason (probably the double the Aussie going rate after tax), creating a problem that has never existed previously in Australia.

The draining of these top-level pilots has other effects for these companies, such as safety and efficiency. Safety being the key factor, gained by decades of experience that these senior pilots are taking overseas.

The days of $29 Sydney-Gold Coast fares are most likely numbered.

[ramblingboy42]

This is already available. Griffith University offers it, amongst others.

Also Southern Cross University Coolangatta.

Theres a very real opportunity for our well educated milennials here, but it may be too long term for them , they like to change jobs often. But I wish I was 20 again , I'd be doing it.

[Eevo]

but what the uni's teach and what the industry wants are two different things.

the majority of the costs is in flying hours which is not covered by hecs.

[bsperka]

but what the uni's teach and what the industry wants are two different things.

the majority of the costs is in flying hours which is not covered by hecs.They get you to commercial pilot certification. Then you need to get hours, usually in remote communities. Need to get a gig as you have minimum hours.
Then work your way up in experience and hours. 1000 hours minimum to get a better gig. Harder again if you are female.

[strangy]

They get you to commercial pilot certification. Then you need to get hours, usually in remote communities. Need to get a gig as you have minimum hours.
Then work your way up in experience and hours. 1000 hours minimum to get a better gig. Harder again if you are female.

Disagree with female bit.
Females have very expedient path to better positions against equivalent male counter parts.
I am aware of more than one who has crashed the aircraft during simulator assessment for a position yet still been awarded a spot over a male.
Affirmative action at its worst in many cases..

[Hugh Jars]

Disagree with female bit.
Females have very expedient path to better positions against equivalent male counter parts.
I am aware of more than one who has crashed the aircraft during simulator assessment for a position yet still been awarded a spot over a make.
Affirmative action at its worst.

Sounds interesting Strangy. While I agree that females are actually favoured nowadays, thanks to Joyce, I have to disagree about your ‘girls crashing the sim’ bit.
My reasoning is that any sim checker worth his (or her) salt would never let a candidate crash the simulator, regardless of gender. That goes against all conventions of using a flight simulator.
I did pilot recruiting simulator checks for over 8 years (for a major Australian airline group), and never did any candidate crash the sim. I can remember stopping the sim once to prevent a developing loss of control event occurring, and that was a bloke.
Further to that, if a candidate failed the simulator check, then they were deemed to have failed the process overall.
I reckon in my time as a recruiter, less than 5% of applicants were female. Their failure rate was about the same as males.

[Eevo]

my raaus instructor worked for casa and he did the rpt certifications. he had one lady in the sim do an approach at (townsville i think). the one with base on a 45 degree angle. anyways, she base, final and a perfect touchdown.... only problem is she landed on the taxiway. hahahaha

[strangy]

Sounds interesting Strangy. While I agree that females are actually favoured nowadays, thanks to Joyce, I have to disagree about your ‘girls crashing the sim’ bit.
My reasoning is that any sim checker worth his (or her) salt would never let a candidate crash the simulator, regardless of gender. That goes against all conventions of using a flight simulator.
I did pilot recruiting simulator checks for over 8 years (for a major Australian airline group), and never did any candidate crash the sim. I can remember stopping the sim once to prevent a developing loss of control event occurring, and that was a bloke.
Further to that, if a candidate failed the simulator check, then they were deemed to have failed the process overall.
I reckon in my time as a recruiter, less than 5% of applicants were female. Their failure rate was about the same as males.

I dont consider a male or female any more or less capable of the task, nor more or less likely to have a bad assessment. I hope my posts dont present this either.
I can say one such instance occurred this year in Melbourne. 1 inop go around. The company and sim type will not be named and is essentially irrelivent.
A contact on the subsequent ground school/endorsement discussed the incident with me also.
I dont speculate on others reasoning or criteria for a pass or fail of candidates.
Simply it happened and my experience to date (albeit over 20 odd yrs) is i'm aware of 2 with a position offered. (not in the same instance)
Its more notable to me and those associated because of the very reasons you state.

[HUE166]

The aviation industry as a whole have been way behind the 8 ball in preparing for this crisis. There have simply not been enough students interested in tackling a career in aviation. The entry requirements have been quite low and, recently, have been lowered further. There are no insurmountable hurdles in front of anyone wanting to enter the industry as a flight crew trainee (student pilot).

It does take at least AUD$120,000 to train a fresh candidate up to airline entry level but that isn't really a hurdle if you sit down and think it through properly. I borrowed the initial amount (AUD$30,000) for my basic commercial license 25 years ago. I sat down and nutted out an intelligent application to the NAB, was knocked back once, and re-applied above the original contact's head. I then got it. My training was spread over a two ear period in which I borrowed and then borrowed some more. It took me 5 years to pay the whole lot back once finished and employed. (That's when interest rates were over 15% also)

Some universities are offering courses (HECS assisted) that will render the student almost airline ready at the completion of the three year course. These students will regret taking that long to become qualified though. They can reach that stage much quicker if they self-fund and manage their progression themselves. However, the degree will also be handy later in life or if the individual loses their medical for one reason or another.

Anyone who is keen enough to enter the industry, whether to fly for the airlines or any number of other disciplines in general aviation, will find a way to make it work. I did it without any family support. That means anyone should really be able to do it if they have some go about them. It's only those ones that would see it through to completion anyway.

The airlines have simply not promoted themselves to the general public as a potential employer. Qantas have, in the past, been used to turning surplus applicants away after taking the cream of the crowd. Even they have dropped their requirement for HSC qualified applicants now. They didn't observe the statistics relating to their usual number of applicants versus their future recruitment requirements. Now they are in trouble.

Regional Express (REX) Airlines published a bitching letter in the Central Western Daily the other day claiming that Virgin and Qantas keep poaching their flight crew and this was going to cause cancellations and delays in the near future (it's actually already happening). Each airline only have themselves to blame if the opposition are poaching their crew. They should have prepared for this event years ago and done so properly.

On the other side of the coin, current pilots can rub their hands together and cash in on the shortfall. That's what I have just done as the shortage is affecting my industry as well. I'm very glad. It pretty well guarantees a high demand for my skill set at least until I will reach retirement age. [thumbsupbig]

[Eevo]

but that isn't really a hurdle if you sit down and think it through properly.
i dont agree. money is the main barrier.
and australian banks wont do this kind of loan without collateral now days. my ex went down this path and was unsuccessful.

[HUE166]

i dont agree. money is the main barrier.
and australian banks wont do this kind of loan without collateral now days. my ex went down this path and was unsuccessful.I can only speak from my own experience plus that of those I have guided since. Don't let her give up Eevo. It can be done.

[Eevo]

I can only speak from my own experience plus that of those I have guided since. Don't let her give up Eevo. It can be done.
too late. she gave up 3 years ago.
now she does raaus instructing as a volunteer.

[HUE166]

That's a shame. At least she's still flying though.

[Hugh Jars]

Nice post, Hue166.
The thing is that the majors (Virgin and Qantas) have never poached pilots from Rex (or any other operator). Those pilots have always had to apply and pass the various recruiting stages on their own merit to succeed. They’ve all wanted to leave those companies.

Poaching implies that the majors are approaching Rex and other’s pilots and offering them jobs. That just ain’t happening.

In regard to training, I saved up to do mine, which took me about 5 years longer than I planned. That also put me outside the age/experience bracket that the majors wanted (at the time). But if you have the fire in you belly to do it, you’ll persist. There were 80 blokes on my course back in 87-88. Only about 10% were persistent enough to go on to airlines.

Back then, when looking for a job, you could shake a tree and 20 pilots fell out. Nowadays there are next to none. There has never been a better time to join the industry.

The problem is that todays job seekers expect to be recruited straight in as a captain, whereas the reality is that it can take 10-20 years to get to that position (it almost always has). It took me 6 years in my previous job, and 9 ½ in my current job. Todays recruits want it all now. That ain’t how it works.

[Slunnie]

HUE166, I read that article in the CWD a number of times also, and I noted a comment aboutRex paying about $54k but training was about $130k.

A fortnight ago I met a fellow from Indianapolis, he was a teacher, trained to be a pilot, he kept getting chartered so went full time flying and now 2up flys a wealthy business man around the world, mainly northern hempisphere. His employer wanted to spend time on the Greek Islands, so thats where they were going! The pilots fly with their wives. Perhaps the airlines are not the only options.

[HUE166]

That's true Hugh. Many of course have made that application despite being 'locked in' to longevity contracts. What the majors have been doing there is paying out the contracts on behalf of the applicants. That's where REX have left their net open. I think it's a bit rich of REX to be crying foul the way they are at the moment.

I do know of a couple that have been approached but I wouldn't say that was the norm.

It' that fire in the belly that will see a trainee through although, as you mentioned, it is a lot less risky to do it now.

It's very typical of gen Y to want everything immediately in all sectors. We've just had to let one go because he had the wrong attitude. It's harder to find the good ones now.

[Eevo]

It's very typical of gen Y to want everything immediately in all sectors.

yes but we wont work for peanuts either.
companies out there offering 30$ per hour, 2 hours a day, 4 days a week, contracts.

why would anyone become a pilot when thats the starting ground?

[HUE166]

HUE166, I read that article in the CWD a number of times also, and I noted a comment aboutRex paying about $54k but training was about $130k.

A fortnight ago I met a fellow from Indianapolis, he was a teacher, trained to be a pilot, he kept getting chartered so went full time flying and now 2up flys a wealthy business man around the world, mainly northern hempisphere. His employer wanted to spend time on the Greek Islands, so thats where they were going! The pilots fly with their wives. Perhaps the airlines are not the only options.The airlines certainly aren't the only option. I couldn't stand them.

[HUE166]

yes but we wont work for peanuts either.
companies out there offering 30$ per hour, 2 hours a day, 4 days a week, contracts.

why would anyone become a pilot when thats the starting ground?That's not a bad standard Eevo. There's no point working for that kind of money when you've put so much into your own trading. There's more out there than that. If that's what they are paying then they'll get what they pay for.

[Eevo]

There's more out there than that.
i dunno. ive got a firefigher mate who did his training at parafield. it was through a government scholarship/grant. he got his PPL and called it quits. said the industry was cutthroat and bs. He now employed as a firefighter.

my goals are different. i want to fly a water bomber for the CFS. but as its a paid job, the requirements are ridiculous . flying isnt hard but paying for the qualifications is.

[HUE166]

i dunno. ive got a firefigher mate who did his training at parafield. it was through a government scholarship/grant. he got his PPL and called it quits. said the industry was cutthroat and bs. He now employed as a firefighter.

my goals are different. i want to fly a water bomber for the CFS. but as its a paid job, the requirements are ridiculous . flying isnt hard but paying for the qualifications is.That's what I do Eevo. The requirements are actually pretty lean and the flying gets way harder than what is experienced in the airlines. It's horses for courses I suppose. Stick with it. It's well worth while.

[Eevo]

That's what I do Eevo. The requirements are actually pretty lean and the flying gets way harder than what is experienced in the airlines. It's horses for courses I suppose. Stick with it. It's well worth while.

in SA the requirement (from aerotech) is 1000h turboprop. (plus a few others things).

while ive got a mortgage, ive given up on on flying. ive not been PIC for 2 years now.

[HUE166]

in SA the requirement (from aerotech) is 1000h turboprop. (plus a few others things).

while ive got a mortgage, ive given up on on flying. ive not been PIC for 2 years now.That's a shame Mate. That 1000 hours is all paid and paid quite well. Do me a favor and give Sam a call and get those ag hours done. Where are you up to with your flying? Have you done your ag rating?

[Eevo]

That's a shame Mate. That 1000 hours is all paid and paid quite well. Do me a favor and give Sam a call and get those ag hours done. Where are you up to with your flying? Have you done your ag rating?

i'm not sure we're talking about the same thing. the 1000h isnt paid. it was the previous experience requirement for applying for the job.

[Hugh Jars]

That's true Hugh. Many of course have made that application despite being 'locked in' to longevity contracts. What the majors have been doing there is paying out the contracts on behalf of the applicants. That's where REX have left their net open. I think it's a bit rich of REX to be crying foul the way they are at the moment.

Gidday HUE166,

Most cadets are bonded (and some regular line pilots are too, for endorsement costs etc), as you mentioned. I am unaware of QF or VA ever paying out bonds to release pilots from their obligations to their current employer. Virgin certainly don't, as the responsibility for the bond rests with the pilot. I doubt the majors are that much in need of pilots (yet). Particularly for relatively inexperienced (and bonded) cadets that generally require more training resources at that stage of their careers.

Virgin has traditionally preferred more experienced pilots, such as turboprop captains or ex-military for direct entry into the company. They are thinner on the ground these days, so they are taking people with less experience.

When I was doing recruiting into the QF regionals (2000-2008), the average applicant had several thousand hours and usually a turboprop command (RFDS, Air Ambo or freighters etc). That gradually reduced over the years (as supply started to dry up) to around 500hrs and a command instrument rating with multi time. That was in 2008, and the pool of available pilots has shrunk since then (as you would know).

Rex's whingeing is one-sided. You have to ask yourself why their pilots want to leave? I have mates that do/did work there, and basically they couldn't wait to leave because their management was so aggressive and adversarial towards staff. I even know one bloke who left the industry altogether from Rex, and he was a captain with over 20 years service. He just hated the place so much that he had to get out.

[Hugh Jars]

in SA the requirement (from aerotech) is 1000h turboprop. (plus a few others things).

while ive got a mortgage, ive given up on on flying. ive not been PIC for 2 years now.

Eevo, do you have 1000hrs turboprop? Just curious.

[Eevo]

Eevo, do you have 1000hrs turboprop? Just curious.
no, not even close.

[HUE166]

i'm not sure we're talking about the same thing. the 1000h isnt paid. it was the previous experience requirement for applying for the job.

For firebombers the 1000 hour (most states are 1500 hours) prerequisite is essentially ag work and preferably spraying. Aerotech specify those to be turbine hours as well although the only official turbine requirement is 100 hours on type (AT-802 or Thrush). The reason for this is that there is not yet a syllabus written for the new firebombing endorsement. That means the firebomber operators (and CASA) are still relying on ag pilots to bring with them the heavy airframe at low level and application experience.

1000 hours of ag is reasonably well paid and is the only way of progressing on to the firebombers. There's no other way of getting a start in them at this stage.

[DAMINK]

Locals are gunna be ****ed off there is no local roots!
Fly in fly outs? Oh wait im confused now no planes. Drive in drive out.


Moving on...

[Roverlord off road spares]

I bet a good percentage of those who flew Lancasters and B17's were clerks, farmers, carpenters, etc. and never finished high school. Are not airliners almost automated these days and the pilots job is to talk to the controllers, take over if something fails, drink coffee, and fondle the stewardesses.[biggrin]

Ah Gender equality, don't forget the fondling of the stewards also to be politically correct LOL.[biggrin]

[Bigbjorn]

Ah Gender equality, don't forget the fondling of the stewards also to be politically correct LOL.[biggrin]

Are not flight stewards mostly tres gay? Back in the 70's I thought it was part of the job description at Qantas. They would probably appreciate a fondling from a handsome young male pilot.[biggrin]

[cripesamighty]

Not all of them. When I worked at uni, my co-workers son used to be in the Australian Ballet, and his best mate was a steward for QANTAS. Both were straight and had the pick of the girls they worked with. One time at a work Xmas party, 'ballet son' rang to wish his folks Merry Xmas and proceeded to tell his mum that he was tired from all the outback touring the troupe was doing. When he got his dad on the phone, he told him the truth - that he had girls lining up outside his room every night and he was quite literally 'shagged out'. Needless to say his mum didn't hear that bit.....[bigwhistle]

[DAMINK]

Not all of them. When I worked at uni, my co-workers son used to be in the Australian Ballet, and his best mate was a steward for QANTAS. Both were straight.

Sure they were.......


https://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/styles/article_small/public/thumbnails/image/2018/05/16/16/gettyimages-6472-000077.jpg

[weeds]

Locals are gunna be ****ed off there is no local roots!
Fly in fly outs? Oh wait im confused now no planes. Drive in drive out.


Moving on...

Big mining companies will organise there own planes......that if they don’t already.

[cripesamighty]

Too funny! From memory the dancer ended up marrying a primary school teacher and the steward married a ballerina. I initially had my suspicions too, but having been to a couple of parties they threw with their rugby mates, I figured out pretty quickly they were straight. And damn, were they awesome ecclectic parties! I ended up dating two dancers and a swimsuit model from those parties. Geez I miss my 20's sometimes!

[Hugh Jars]

Well, that went downhill fast.

An all male crew is technically known as a Sausage Fest.

[Homestar]

I bet a good percentage of those who flew Lancasters and B17's were clerks, farmers, carpenters, etc. and never finished high school. Are not airliners almost automated these days and the pilots job is to talk to the controllers, take over if something fails, drink coffee, and fondle the stewardesses.[biggrin]

I know this is going back in the thread a bit, but here's a ver good example of how compicated it is - I watch quite a few of this guys videos as I like his naration style and explnations of what he is doing. I would consider myself an inteligent, well educated person but I really doubt I could get my head around all of this - not only the complexities of navigation, but understanding the tower directions, accurately interpreting them but also the distraction of the chatter going on that doesn't relate to what he is doing - I've always loved flying (well not so much commuting on commersial airlines but I've thankfully had many other opportunities to tag along in smaller aircraft) and planes and have the utmost respect for Pilots. 👍


https://youtu.be/Q2JANhUY9co

[cripesamighty]

Thanks for that Homestar. It brought back quite a few memories. I spent three months slumming it on my best mates couch while on holidays in the USA quite a few moons ago. He was flying charters out of Executive Airport in Sacramento mostly in Aero Commanders and Turbo Commanders. His boss was pretty cruisy so I was lucky enough to go out on most of their charter flights and went all over California and neighbouring states. When we took any aircraft under the weight limit for requiring a co-pilot, I got to fly in the right hand seat checking maps and radio freq's. It's not called 'air traffic confusion' for nothing! My mate is back in Perth now but grounded as he is the permanent carer for his invalid 86yo mother. Given the current shortage I hope he doesn't have too much trouble getting back in the air when the time comes, since he has already been out of flying for a couple of years. Fingers crossed!

[Bigbjorn]

Employers and employer groups (bosses unions) regularly bleat about a "Shortage of skilled labour", "Can't get qualified staff' etc. There is only one reason for this shortage. The employers have not trained sufficient staff. Whether apprentice, trainee, cadet, student on bonded scholarship. They are not available because the employers have not trained sufficient bodies. They mostly want someone else to train their skilled labour and relieve them of the cost and bother. You probably need to train three to have one 35 y.o. remaining in the industry. People leave their trades and professions because they decide they don't like the job, have been poorly paid, treated like ****, find better paying clean jobs in another industry, sick of working in the outback on mine and other sites, got in the grip of the furry magnet and the magnet wants to live in an East Coast capital and so on.

[Fourgearsticks]

For firebombers the 1000 hour (most states are 1500 hours) prerequisite is essentially ag work and preferably spraying. Aerotech specify those to be turbine hours as well although the only official turbine requirement is 100 hours on type (AT-802 or Thrush). The reason for this is that there is not yet a syllabus written for the new firebombing endorsement. That means the firebomber operators (and CASA) are still relying on ag pilots to bring with them the heavy airframe at low level and application experience.

1000 hours of ag is reasonably well paid and is the only way of progressing on to the firebombers. There's no other way of getting a start in them at this stage.

Hiho, how goes Orange or yoo based at Mudgee now?
Ag is the only flying that could remotely be considered the right training for fire flying. 1000 hours used to be the minimum before you would be let loose in turbine, different now. I would consider 1000 hours expirence nowhere near adequate for flying a loaded 802 on a crap fire day. You usually only get to fly on the worst days and in the worst conditions.
As for pay and conditions in Australia, they have been gradually receeding the last 30 years or so. I work overseas in a third world country most of the year because they pay resonable rates compared to Oz. Come home to fly fires and earn less over summer to be home for a while. Even Ag work in Oz is getting less and less lucrative, some employers are paying salary now instead of retainer plus bonus acres sprayed/spread/hours flown. Drought has slowed things right up, maybe going to be a busy fire season this summer?