400,000 miles in a Tesla Model S in 3 years

[Lewy110]

Here’s how a Tesla Model S holds up after 400,000 miles in 3 years | Electrek (https://electrek.co/2018/07/17/tesla-model-s-holds-up-400000-miles-3-years/)

[PhilipA]

Hmmm, 2 batteries in 3 years.
One would think LA to Las Vegas would not be hard miles.
I wonder if Tesla would give warranty to a normal Joe and not a high profile shuttle service and the cost to Tesla of that say $40K?

Regards Philip A

[bee utey]

Hmmm, 2 batteries in 3 years.
One would think LA to Las Vegas would not be hard miles.
I wonder if Tesla would give warranty to a normal Joe and not a high profile shuttle service and the cost to Tesla of that say $40K?

Regards Philip A

Regarding warranty replacement, the question is: are they better or worse than the regular automotive manufacturers often featured (negatively) on this forum? It wouldn't be hard for Tesla to be better in the interests of growing their business.

And on the pricing of a replacement battery, there are of course different prices depending on who's paying when. A good article on the subject:

What the Tesla Model S Battery Replacement Price Doesn’t Say | PluginCars.com (http://www.plugincars.com/tesla-model-s-replacement-battery-packs-125571.html)

[goingbush]

Lithium cell longevity (or any battery for that matter) is directly proportional to the extremes of charge and discharge you subject it to.

The LiFePo4 cells I use are nominal; 3.2v , fully charged is 3.65v fully discharged 2.5 v if you charge or discharge over / under those values the cell is toast / unrecoverable .

If you cycle the cells to the limit they are good for 2000 charge cycles .
If you cycle 80% they are good for 10,000 cycles & beyond

I have my BMS set to shut the car down at 2.7V & stop charging at 3.45v .

In a Tesla 200,000 miles at say 200 miles per charge is only 1000 cycles . Im sure Tesla algorithms would not allow charge / discharge to the limits, but who knows with then.

[PhilipA]

I guess the point I was trying to make was that Tesla would very soon go broke if they paid warranty on a large number of batteries after say 3-5 years.

The article referred to above states that the batteries would cost Tesla $34K each, so 2 would be $68K.

I don't think there would be anything like that profit content in a Tesla S.

I sort of grudgingly admire Elon Musk but he is like a runner trying to outrun a Tsunami and his shoes are wearing out faster than he anticipated as his Giga factory for batteries does not seem to be yet performing and costs reducing as planned.
Regards Philip A

[scarry]

Interesting, but slightly off topic,in RACQ's recent survey on many different vehicle running costs,they didn't have any electric or hybrid vehicles in their final report.

Their comment was they had found them surprisingly expensive to own and run compared with existing vehicles.

Over the next few years,i bet this will change.

[weeds]

So that’s around 600 000km.....not many petrol cars get that many k’s up, most are on the scrap heap by than.

[PhilipA]

So that’s around 600 000km.....not many petrol cars get that many k’s up, most are on the scrap heap by than.
But they would if they had $68K spent on them. LOL.

Regards Philip A

[bee utey]

But they would if they had $68K spent on them. LOL.

Regards Philip A

1. At 600K a comparable petrol car would have burnt that much in fuel leaving nothing over for repairs.

2. I doubt that many Tesla owners would have a battery replaced under warranty, they just don't drive far enough. Say 5% do and the numbers look better already. A few high visibility customers getting extra service is good for the image.

3. $34K might be the cost of a new battery, but the battery is modular and individual blocks of cells can be swapped out and the battery made available as a warranty replacement for suitable customers, or used as a loaner while their own is repaired. The net cost of a warranty claim could be as little as $5K. The second battery swapped out of the high mileage car mentioned had cell balance issues and would be an ideal candidate for repair.

4. Battery production is still ramping up at the GF so capital costs aren't dropping much yet but will soon enough. The longer you can wait for a replacement battery the cheaper it gets to build.

[goingbush]

As a side effect think of recycling, Tesla battery replacement provide a ready source of used modules for classic conversions.

UnServiceble battery pack may only have one faulty module, A faulty modules may only have a few faulty cells.

Im my limited experience I had one cell that would charge before the others and another discharge before the others, it made the whole pack capacity lower than it was in reality. Replaced those two bad cells and I have increased my range by 30%

A good Tesla module could be made by testing and swapping Individual 18650 cells about. Not viable in a business plan but perfect for DIY .

, this RRC has old Tesla modules


https://youtu.be/IGjOY4JBmy4

[PhilipA]

I couldn't stomach 18 minutes of puff piece, but LRO did an article on this and the cost was something like GBP 20K-25K for the conversion.
So with recovered cells from wrecks the cost was still $40K or so.
Did they mention this in the clip?

Regards Philip A

[cripesamighty]

Good to know that you can change out individual cells. The benefit of an increase in battery performance for minimal cost in your case is brilliant.

[Eevo]

I guess the point I was trying to make was that Tesla would very soon go broke if they paid warranty on a large number of batteries after say 3-5 years.

not far from being broke

1st aug.

Tesla Inc burned through $US739.5 million ($A999 million) in cash in the second quarter, paving the way for the company to record a $US717.5 million net loss as it continues to crank out electric cars.


The net loss more than doubled from the same quarter a year ago,

[bee utey]

not far from being broke

1st aug.

Tesla Inc burned through $US739.5 million ($A999 million) in cash in the second quarter, paving the way for the company to record a $US717.5 million net loss as it continues to crank out electric cars.


The net loss more than doubled from the same quarter a year ago,

Tesla isn't broke until their creditors pull the plug. That they won't do while the money is being poured into production improvements and sales of Model 3's are climbing rapidly. $1B "losses" are small change in US finance. California's GDP is $2.4 Trillion all on its own.

[Eevo]

Tesla isn't broke until their creditors pull the plug. That they won't do while the money is being poured into production improvements and sales of Model 3's are climbing rapidly. $1B "losses" are small change in US finance. California's GDP is $2.4 Trillion all on its own.

steady as she sinks

[Tins]

Tesla isn't broke until their creditors pull the plug. That they won't do while the money is being poured into production improvements and sales of Model 3's are climbing rapidly. $1B "losses" are small change in US finance. California's GDP is $2.4 Trillion all on its own.

Sorry, bee, but you have been flogging a dead horse for a while now. Musk has relied on subs from the Obama administration for far too long. The 'real' car companies have already signed his death knell. Jaguar, BMW, Benz, VW, etc. etc. are releasing models, production ready, that the Model 3 cannot compete with, even if Musk could get them into the market, which he cannot, as he cannot get a decent production model.. He should have sold to Apple when he had the chance. Death by 1000 cuts awaits.

Oh,, BTW, California is a miniscule market, in the scheme of things, and Arnie is no longer Governor.

[bee utey]

Sorry, bee, but you have been flogging a dead horse for a while now. Musk has relied on subs from the Obama administration for far too long. The 'real' car companies have already signed his death knell. Jaguar, BMW, Benz, VW, etc. etc. are releasing models, production ready, that the Model 3 cannot compete with, even if Musk could get them into the market, which he cannot, as he cannot get a decent production model.. He should have sold to Apple when he had the chance. Death by 1000 cuts awaits.

Oh,, BTW, California is a miniscule market, in the scheme of things, and Arnie is no longer Governor.

Very well, I shall leave this thread to the "experts" and visit it again in a year's time and see how it all pans out.

[Bigbjorn]

Hmmm, 2 batteries in 3 years.
One would think LA to Las Vegas would not be hard miles.
I wonder if Tesla would give warranty to a normal Joe and not a high profile shuttle service and the cost to Tesla of that say $40K?

Regards Philip A

From PCH South Bay to The Strip in Las Vegas is from memory about 280-290 miles and four hours +- a few minutes. On I15 almost the whole distance. California has an enforced speed limit of 80 mph on the I's. Nevada has no speed limits except built up areas and a nominal 80 mph on the I's. The Feds require states to have speed limits to receive funding to maintain the interstate network. Nevada doesn't enforce the limit unless a driver is making an arse of himself. 95 mph is acceptable a Nevada Highway Patrol officer told me. Regular shuttle services like this one probably get a bit of leeway and drive as near flat out as they can get away with. Two round trips per day sounds feasible.

[PhilipA]

Yes I remember back in about 1986 I hired an Olsmobile Cutlass Calais and it had that crazy mandated 85MPH speedo.
I had it pegged and Winnebagos towing jeeps were flying past me on interstate 15?

Regards Philip A.

[Tins]

Very well, I shall leave this thread to the "experts" and visit it again in a year's time and see how it all pans out.

Now, now, don't be like that.

[bee utey]

Now, now, don't be like that.

Well it'e extraordinarily difficult to have a meaningful discussion with someone who cites no sources and their argument boils down to "yer wrong, sunshine". Over to you, my friend.

[Tins]

Well it'e extraordinarily difficult to have a meaningful discussion with someone who cites no sources and their argument boils down to "yer wrong, sunshine". Over to you, my friend.

No need to source anything re Tesla, as Musk's problems with money and Tesla 3 production are in the news pretty much daily, as are the models coming from the real car companies. Jaguar's plans are well known. BMW play their cards a little closer, as do Benz, but industry rumours suggest they are very near to launching their own models. When that happens, with their proven production capabilities and worldwide dealer networks it is my opinion that Tesla will be sunk.

My observation about Tesla and Apple comes from the fact that it is well known Apple are working on some sort of car project ( Project Titan ), Apple are very keen on so called renewable energy, and of course have money that even Musk can only dream of. They seem like a perfect fit to me.

BTW, I don't claim expert status on anything. I do, however, claim a reasonable knowledge of the auto industry, having been a very keen observer since I was about ten, and having family members high up in Toyota and Isuzu.

[bee utey]

No need to source anything re Tesla, as Musk's problems with money and Tesla 3 production are in the news pretty much daily,...

Yes, the short sellers have been very active talking down Tesla's financial health in recent months, but have egg on their faces when the latest production figures were released and Tesla's stock price jumped 19%. The big (aka "real") car manufacturers are desperate for Tesla to die so they have some breathing space. Hasn't worked yet though. I'm not however saying that Tesla can't be destroyed, but it's a hard battle with big money on both sides.

How Many Tesla Model 3 Cars Have Been Made? (https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-tesla-tracker/)

[Tins]

Yes, the short sellers have been very active talking down Tesla's financial health in recent months, but have egg on their faces when the latest production figures were released and Tesla's stock price jumped 19%. The big (aka "real") car manufacturers are desperate for Tesla to die so they have some breathing space. Hasn't worked yet though. I'm not however saying that Tesla can't be destroyed, but it's a hard battle with big money on both sides.

How Many Tesla Model 3 Cars Have Been Made? (https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-tesla-tracker/)

Tesla's stock also dropped after Musk's brain snap after his rejection in the Thai cave rescue PR stunt. Shows just wow volatile his investors are and how vulnerable he is as CEO. That said, if I had some $$ I'd probably buy in. I was serious about the Apple thing. They could but Tesla out of the coffee tin, and I believe will probably do so, when the firm is nearing collapse. The intellectual property would be something they'd love.

But, you are correct. Come back in twelve months and we'll probably both have egg on our faces.

[bee utey]

Tesla's stock also dropped after Musk's brain snap after his rejection in the Thai cave rescue PR stunt. Shows just wow volatile his investors are and how vulnerable he is as CEO. That said, if I had some $$ I'd probably buy in. I was serious about the Apple thing. They could but Tesla out of the coffee tin, and I believe will probably do so, when the firm is nearing collapse. The intellectual property would be something they'd love.

But, you are correct. Come back in twelve months and we'll probably both have egg on our faces.

I don't disagree with any of that, and Musk himself has recently said it could all go pear shaped if a recession hits. Still you have to admire a guy who got as far as he has against the torrent of critics seeking to pull him down. I find it fascinating to watch even though I don't have a single cent wagered on the outcome.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHS0H5AwGjU

[cripesamighty]

Apple could definitely buy it with their coffee tin money. It was recently announced they are the first company to be worth one trillion dollars. Tesla might not exactly be the greatest money making operation, but it definitely is pushing along interest in EV's and renewables.

[bee utey]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNClpsLwdpM

[Mick_Marsh]

Time for some people to step up to the plate and put their money where their mouth is.
Elon Musk says he wants to take Tesla private at $US420 a share - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-08/teslas-elon-musk-says-he-wants-to-take-automaker-private/10088008)

I wont be wasting my hard earned on this one but I do look forward to hearing in the future how some have made millions.
My shares in the coal, oil and gas industries (petrochem) have gone up ten fold since I bought them.

[PhilipA]

Time for some people to step up to the plate and put their money where their mouth is
Er what he wants to do is just the opposite.
He wants to by out all recent shareholders at $420 and own it himself.

He SAYS he will keep faith with original shareholders by letting them keep their shares.
BUT this outburst is because he doesn't like that short sellers have affected the share value.

It remains to be seen whether he can borrow enough money to buy out the shareholders and take it private, although there are rumours that the Saudis have bought a big position and it may be them.

Regards Philip A

[Mick_Marsh]

I read it that he wants to take it from public listing to private listing.
"A limited company may be "private" or "public". A private limited company's disclosure requirements are lighter, but its shares may not be offered to the general public and therefore cannot be traded on a public stock exchange. This is the major difference between a private limited company and a public limited company."
I think he wants to hide what is going on. The share price fluctuations must be hurting the company.

[Tins]

Still you have to admire a guy who got as far as he has against the torrent of critics seeking to pull him down.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHS0H5AwGjU

No, I don't. He did it it on Obama's subsidies. He did not risk one single cent of his PayPal money. I don't admire him one little bit.

If he eventually succeeds, I won't hate him, I don't hate him now; but, he, well perhaps his Tesla company, is built on a tissue of lies. If SpaceX succeeds, well more power to him. I'll wait a bit though. IMO, he's Chris Skase writ large. Maybe I'm wrong. But I'd bet that I'm not.

[bee utey]

No, I don't. He did it it on Obama's subsidies. He did not risk one single cent of his PayPal money. I don't admire him one little bit.

If he eventually succeeds, I won't hate him, I don't hate him now; but, he, well perhaps his Tesla company, is built on a tissue of lies. If SpaceX succeeds, well more power to him. I'll wait a bit though. IMO, he's Chris Skase writ large. Maybe I'm wrong. But I'd bet that I'm not.

You keep harping on about ***** subsidies. Did Musk do anything illegal? I'm sure that you're aware that all other US vehicle manufacturers are entitled to subsidies for similar reasons. What about the Ford and Chrysler bailouts? How are they OK and a subsidy for cleaner cars isn't OK?

[DT-P38]

I read it that he wants to take it from public listing to private listing.
"A limited company may be "private" or "public". A private limited company's disclosure requirements are lighter, but its shares may not be offered to the general public and therefore cannot be traded on a public stock exchange. This is the major difference between a private limited company and a public limited company."
I think he wants to hide what is going on. The share price fluctuations must be hurting the company.


Musk wants to hide operations and reporting so he can completely control (manipulate) the story line and hence his march to be the worlds first FIRST GEN TRILLIONAIRE.

The bloke is a nutter and really not honest about what he is trying to achieve... if the stated aim of Tesla "to hasten adoption of clean fuels" was true... they would be building conversion kits for existing vehicles instead of competing and adding another range of vehicles & production facility into the mix.

Musk is a typical climate/enviro scam person - slightly deranged and in it for the money/fame and fortune.

[Sand and Gravel]

Back on topic, I own a Tesla Model X and it is a brilliant car. Unfortunately, my wife thinks so too! So, I rarely get to drive it which is fine as my Defender Perentie is great fun in a very different kind of way.

On the question of service and support, I have a somewhat mixed experience. First, their effort and quality of service is stellar. Yes, quite beyond anything I have experienced from any other car manufacturer over my life time. They have also been consistently stellar. However, when dealing with them, you get the impression that they are still learning as they go along. Their immediate reaction to a problem is to apologise, fix it and send you on your way with a smile on your face. There isn't even a question about warranty. So why is that an issue. It is an issue because a little voice in the back of my head hints that in 10 years or so, they will change that attitude and go to the 'customer is rarely right' model that the other manufacturers seem to have.

[Silenceisgolden]

Many years ago at a meeting of the Jaguar Car Club the author of a book about Sir William Lyons was giving a talk to the club. He made this incredible comment - "Where Sir William went wrong....." This silly little boy with his typewriter had the gall to be a critic of the worlds most successful one-man-band car manufacturer.

I believe anyone criticising Elon Musk is making the same mistake. He was by nearly a decade the first to build a useful electric car, and a glamorous one, not a touchy-feely one. He is a seer, a visionary, and besides, he has a great name. 'Elon Musk' - rolls off the tongue much better than say Bill Shorten, or Malcom Turnbull.

[Eevo]

he's a good salesperson, nothing more.

[speleomike]

Hi


..... if the stated aim of Tesla "to hasten adoption of clean fuels" was true... they would be building conversion kits for existing vehicles instead of competing and adding another range of vehicles & production facility into the mix.


On a technical level that would give you a poor electric car. Tesla did the right thing and started from scratch and didn't try to work around the decades old baggage of a conventional vehicle. Otherwise they would have ended up with something similar to what the other motor companies have been trying to peddle for years; low performance, low range electric runabouts.

On an economic level doing a retro conversion would be silly and disastrous. Who would pay for a diesel or petrol car and then pay extra to have stuff ripped out and replaced?

As for "range of vehicles & production" Tesla has very few. All the other conventional car makers have dozens of models.

Mike

[Mick_Marsh]

Who would pay for a diesel or petrol car and then pay extra to have stuff ripped out and replaced?
I know of at least two on this site. One is completed and the other is in progress.

I have got to say they are really well done, although sadly, lacking in range and quick recharge/refuel time. Much like the Tesla also lacks these necessities for a big country.

I've got to say I admire Elon Musk. He does have the gift of the gab and he is doing things. The CSIRO does things, too. Or, used to do things. We need to try out these things in order to improve our lives. We found out introducing the cane toad to get rid of the cane beetle was not such a good idea but Mixo to reduce the rabbit population was successful.

If someone gave me a Tesla to commute to the city, I'd use it. Unfortunately, they don't have the range and speed of recharging/refuelling I need.

[Sand and Gravel]

If someone gave me a Tesla to commute to the city, I'd use it. Unfortunately, they don't have the range and speed of recharging/refuelling I need.

I haven't found range or recharging to be an issue at all. I don't drive more than 650km a day. Usually I recharge the Model X from a regular 10amp wall socket in my shed. I have not needed a quick charger. One thing people need to get their heads around with an electric car is that you leave the house every day with the electric equivalent of a full tank of fuel. With my Defender, I will drive for a week or two and then fill the tank. With the Model X, I don't even think about it. People can bleat on about range and quick charge but in reality, it isn't an issue at all. And for a extra long drive ie more than 650km, I can just stop for a coffee and a pee and top up at one of the dozens of charge points along the highway (you would be surprised how many have already been implemented). Because my bladder won't last that long.

[newhue]

Well I wish my Defender did 312 000 km (194 000 mile) before it had an issue, and to think my model had been in production for two decades and **** itself on day two from new. And then a couple more before tapping 100 000 klm.

I think good on Musk for having a go and bringing EV's into the for. Apple didn't get anywhere either without government money for smart phones. So without subsidies its more than likely the smart phone would not have been invented, and perhaps EV's.
Musk has copped a lot of flack for being a dreamer, but I'm planning our next car will be a Tesla, and I'm saving my pennies for a prime mover if they ever make it to our shores. Without Musk's perseverance the traditional motor vehicle manufacturers would still be happy producing the same product decade after decade promoting minor twigging. And the fossil fuel industry with all its consumables and destruction of the planet would still be happy to see it that way. And we all would still be at the whim of fuel pricing rather than creating our own autonomy from the sun.

I'm over changing oil every 10K klm with all its consumables and waste. I want 6 moving parts compared to hundred if not thousands in a tradition vehicle. I want the sun to power batteries, and batteries to charged my car, truck, and home. I know from my own house hold power bills, our current hybrid car, and people I know who have Tesla's, there are big saving to be made to the hip pocket and planet using these types of products.

[goingbush]

Sure Musk is a crackpot , but kudos to him for advancing the progress of EV's & hastening the development of Battery tech.

Anyone interested in Electric LR & 4x4 EV conversions Ive started a FB group on the topic .

Electric LandRover and 4x4 EV Conversions public group | Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/groups/1113080125510519/)

[newhue]

I admire you going bush, not only do you kill cats you have a go at EV's. :BigThumb: It's probably the only reason I have kept my 130, to me it seems the perfect car with it 1.5T payload and square styling to turn into an EV one day. However I'd be just as happy to park it up and put a few rocks around it, pop the bonnet and plant a fig tree in it, making it a worthy garden ornament.
Car manufacturers when they see the sales more clearly will make a far better 4x4 EV perhaps than any retro fit. And I'd image the defender along with all traditional motor vehicles will be worth virtually nothing. The defender already is outside its bubble anyway.
The Prius we have which is no way an EV, did 2500Klm on $220 of fuel last holiday. The wife puts $30 in every 2 or 3 weeks. Imagine if your house could charge your car and the only service was at 200 000km for a battery check like a Tesla can do. The guys I know with Teslas say tyres and brake pads are it, and even then if you use the electric motors rather than brakes the pads last for eons. When people realise all this is possible and not that expansive you suddenly feel like you have been sucking BS through a straw for some time. Fossil fuel is dead, people will want the savings and technology rather than nostalgia. Who drives a 3 on the tree Kingswood these days.....

[Silenceisgolden]

Of course some people like the feel of certain types of engines. V8's in particular are found attractive by many enthusiasts, as V twins are to motorcyclists. There is something just plain enjoyable about the power impulses of a good engine - take that away and everything could become bland.

And it is worth remembering that unless you have your own non-polluting power station, electric vehicles are just swapping liquid fuel pollution for coal fired pollution. I have yet to see any figures on amount of pollution per unit electric energy from fuel or coal type generators. Does anyone here know?

[goingbush]

Of course some people like the feel of certain types of engines. V8's in particular are found attractive by many enthusiasts, as V twins are to motorcyclists. There is something just plain enjoyable about the power impulses of a good engine - take that away and everything could become bland.

And it is worth remembering that unless you have your own non-polluting power station, electric vehicles are just swapping liquid fuel pollution for coal fired pollution. I have yet to see any figures on amount of pollution per unit electric energy from fuel or coal type generators. Does anyone here know?


Have to disagree there mate, Ive had V8's from 460 big block Ford down to 3.5 rover V8's & all sorts of Diesels in between. Go drive a performance EV and you will never pine for V8 sound or any engine sound ever again. SILENCE actually IS GOLDEN mate , Driving an EV you soon realise how noisy the world is & loud exhausts become rather offensive. EV power is anything but bland , its so intuitive & you feel more connected to the car & is a superior driving experience to anything Ive driven ever before. I'll never buy another Internal Combustion car, if I do it will soon be converted to Electric.

Most Owners of EV are smart (environmentally conscious) enough to have solar Installed , You charge for free , drive for free , use no resources.

AND I suppose most people don't realise the Extraction, refining & delivery of Petrol / Deisel uses the same amount of Electricity that would be consumed if it was used directly in EV's .

[Silenceisgolden]

Have to disagree there mate, Ive had V8's from 460 big block Ford down to 3.5 rover V8's & all sorts of Diesels in between. Go drive a performance EV and you will never pine for V8 sound or any engine sound ever again. SILENCE actually IS GOLDEN mate , Driving an EV you soon realise how noisy the world is & loud exhausts become rather offensive. EV power is anything but bland , its so intuitive & you feel more connected to the car & is a superior driving experience to anything Ive driven ever before. I'll never buy another Internal Combustion car, if I do it will soon be converted to Electric.

Most Owners of EV are smart (environmentally conscious) enough to have solar Installed , You charge for free , drive for free , use no resources.

AND I suppose most people don't realise the Extraction, refining & delivery of Petrol / Deisel uses the same amount of Electricity that would be consumed if it was used directly in EV's .

Nearly 50 years ago I ripped the engine out of my C10 BSA and replaced it with a car battery and starter motor. I got about three times around the block before the starter motor flew to bits. I was mesmerised by the silence, and the incredible torque. After the starter blew, I refitted the gutless side wacker engine and un-manageable gearbox and tried again - noisy, vibrating - but I liked it MUCH better.

Many years later I swapped my Norton for a BMW K75 triple, very, very smooth, and very quiet and boring as dog droppings.

More recently I replaced the 4 cylinder engine in my Oka with a 6 cylinder engine. Faster, much smoother, much quieter - but I liked it better with the original engine. Some people like the sort of feedback an internal combustion engine gives, we find it part of the enjoyment of motoring. I do understand that we who like motoring with feedback are doomed to a bland existence before long, and while I am a total supporter of Elon Musk I am not looking forward to the day when I am forced to go electric.

[manic]

New cars are bad for the environment.

I would love to convert the D1. Electric Disco Stewie! But if I dont have the time, who is going to convert it for me?

The E-car conversion business could be booming!

[Eevo]

whats a typical cost for a conversion?

[SPROVER]

Have to disagree there mate, Ive had V8's from 460 big block Ford down to 3.5 rover V8's & all sorts of Diesels in between. Go drive a performance EV and you will never pine for V8 sound or any engine sound ever again. SILENCE actually IS GOLDEN mate , Driving an EV you soon realise how noisy the world is & loud exhausts become rather offensive. EV power is anything but bland , its so intuitive & you feel more connected to the car & is a superior driving experience to anything Ive driven ever before. I'll never buy another Internal Combustion car, if I do it will soon be converted to Electric.

Most Owners of EV are smart (environmentally conscious) enough to have solar Installed , You charge for free , drive for free , use no resources.

AND I suppose most people don't realise the Extraction, refining & delivery of Petrol / Deisel uses the same amount of Electricity that would be consumed if it was used directly in EV's .Im sorry but i don't really care how fast an EV car can be. There's nothing like the sound of a good old V8 revving to 7,000rpm or that Glorious sound of a V10 hitting 9,000rpm.
How boring are those EV formula cars to watch? No sound. Might as well be playing with slot cars 🤣🤣

[newhue]

Its largely marketing, no one would walk down the street to use a pay phone if you could find one, but we all bought mobiles with vigour . Remember how kingwood lovers feared the world was going to stop with the introduction of unleaded fuel over lead based super. In the end they just sold the pile of **** and bought another, the commodore. Its what people want to hang onto for fear of change over what could be. It's why V8 super cars ditched the 4cyl turbos, and never will line up against EV's, because of fear that people will realise there is something better then V8 resource sucking slugs. However that generation will eventually die and I have to admit sound is what they all cling too, even the guy I know who races porches. But EVs have their own cool sound, just few are willing to be the leader. Perhaps Turnbull love of coal can be explained the same, fear of change. However in the end and quite simply the earth can't sustain fossil fuel any more, other wise there will be silence, real silence and lots of it.

It takes 6 to 18 moths to off set the manufacturing of a house hold solar system pending the size. Last for 25 years, cost nothing to run, and down to about $800 a kW these days. A 7.5kW system can easily power an average house with a pool and aircon during the day plus return money. With a moderate battery ($5000) it can power the house at night. Upgrade to a 10kW system and chuck a mid size battery ($10 000) and the E car is covered for 500km round trip each day in Tesla's case. There is also developing technologies so you can sell your cars excess charge to the world when parking. Now I can't ever see the fossil fuel industry being so generous.

Oil and coal takes constant surveying, takes a decade from X marks the spot to digging a filthy big hole, then takes endless resources to drill, dig, train, or float the bounty. Then feed it into a coal power station or refinery that last 50 years, has constant maintenance, and belches carbon like a bush fire in the power stations case. Off shore oil has the very real threat to potentially destroy the whole marine environment, something I don't want for great australian bite regardless of the assurance they can deal with raging seas down there.
China is on the cusp of unleashing EVs on the world, at a price we all can enjoy. And possibly the reason most car manufactures have gone to the drawing board to develop EV's for their brand, otherwise they are going out of business. However for them its a long way from a Datsun 1200 to a Skyline Nismo. And traditional car manufacturers are being forced to stop looking at EVs through fossil fuel eyes. That is where Musk's first attempt at a EV is an absolute cracker, it has little to do with traditional thinking. Just like the pay phone and the mobile. And keep in mind the first 6 pack sized cary bag phone was $2500, 18 months later the tiny Nokia dumb phones were $900. It will be very exciting to see what the next 5 yeas produces.

[manic]

They should ban the sale of new ICE vehicles for personal use. As of today, why not, we are not manufacturing ICE cars over here any more, right? We dont need a growing population of oil burners gridlocking the city.

Conversion of ICE to EV should be subsidised/encouraged, and rego on household vehicles reduced if you own an EV.

Solar installs on new residential builds should be mandatory. Interest free roof solar installs should be available for all, paid back through the elec bill where any savings made are charged to pay off the loan.

Who leads this country. Progress is so sloooooow.

[Mick_Marsh]

They should ban the sale of new ICE vehicles for personal use. As of today, why not, we are not manufacturing ICE cars over here any more, right? We dont need a growing population of oil burners gridlocking the city.

Conversion of ICE to EV should be subsidised/encouraged, and rego on household vehicles reduced if you own an EV.

Solar installs on new residential builds should be mandatory. Interest free roof solar installs should be available for all, paid back through the elec bill where any savings made are charged to pay off the loan.

Who leads this country. Progress is so sloooooow.

Interesting post.
Let me put it another way


They should ban the sale of new small vehicles for personal use. As of today, why not, we are not manufacturing small cars over here any more, right? We dont need a growing population of cramped transport gridlocking the city.

Conversion of small vehicles to four wheel drives should be subsidised/encouraged, and rego on off road vehicles reduced if you own an four wheel drives.

Bullbar installs on new vehicles should be mandatory. Interest free bullbar installs should be available for all, paid back through the registration bill where any savings made are charged to pay off the loan.

Who leads this country. Progress is so sloooooow.

Sound much better to me.

[goingbush]

They should ban the sale of new ICE vehicles for personal use. As of today, why not, we are not manufacturing ICE cars over here any more, right? We dont need a growing population of oil burners gridlocking the city.

Conversion of ICE to EV should be subsidised/encouraged, and rego on household vehicles reduced if you own an EV.

<snip>

Australia wont have any say on the matter, China is Leading the world in the move to all electric and the rest of worlds Auto manufacturers are having to play catch up otherwise wont be able to compete, Australia might get the ROW markets unwanted ICE cars dumped here but Full electric will happen sooner than you think. 10 years max.

When I took my Landy to VicRoads for them to sign off and check the BluePlate was affixed for Ev conversion they said the annual Rego is now $100 cheaper , a 'green incentive' its not widely known or publicised . Also applies to Hybrids , interestingly Hybrids must have a Hybrid sticker on number plates (like an LPG sticker) but Full Electrics don't get a sticker ???

[Silenceisgolden]

Of course a lot of the discussion here pre-supposes that anthropogenic climate change does in fact exist. There are some very strong arguments in favour of the conspiracy theory.

1. The worlds best brains tell us that 'carbon pollution' will destroy the earth but they blandly accept that population will double every fifty years. If they believed what they say, they would be arguing for a reduction in population.
2. A very simple piece of legislation would save a huge amount of embodied energy being wasted. A law requiring 5 year warranties on manufactured goods would save all that embodied energy going into landfill.

There are many similar arguments, and many eminent scientists who say it is nonsense. Quite likely many, many more scientists believe it is nonsense but keep quiet because if they speak out, the climate police will get them!

[manic]

This thread has inspired me... to tweak the injector pump up to full grunt and head out for a joy ride, whilst I still can!

Maybe the next defender will do 1000km on a charge, wouldnt that be something!

[Mick_Marsh]

The Prius we have which is no way an EV, did 2500Klm on $220 of fuel last holiday.
My 1995 Camry (ICE) was returning 7.6l/100km. I have logged 2 1/2 years of travel in it and that is the average over that 2 1/2 years. In that time I travelled 123370 km and spent $11309.67 on fuel. This translates to $229.18 in 2500km.
The car I am in at the moment is a current model ICE car. It is returning 7l/100km. I have had it a little over a week. In that week I travelled 977km and put $96.66 in the tank. It was full at the start of the week and I filled it at 977km. This translates to $247.34 in 2500km.

I would like to draw to your attention you are saving nine cents per km on a $400 Camry. How much did that Prius cost you?
I reckon you will have to travel 400,000km in that Prius to match my car and fuel cost with yours. Oh, how long do the batteries last?

I'm off to look for another 20yo Camry. They survive roo strikes. Best car on the road today.

[newhue]

Its convenient to think climate change is bollocks, and doing so sure takes any responsibility away from giving a rip. However we all only have one planet, its not like we have a spare just out the back or can buy a new one. Regardless of EV development there are many scientist from all corners of the earth working for many different universities, companies, and governments who think we have 10 to 15 years to turn it around. After that no matter what we do its game over. So its no surprised many are no longer concerned, they are terrified. However putting climate change aside humans have other issues to be concerned with as they continue to cause massive decline to other parts of the earths ecological systems, its why and widely accepted that humans have entered the 6th great extinction phase.

90% of the oceans fish stock are collapsing or have collapsed. Australia has just about knocked off the great barrier reef with silt and pesticide run off from farming of all the way up the Qld coast, and climbing sea temperatures and ever increasing cyclone categories are doing the rest. The world oceans are full of acid, carbon, and plastic. Micro <5mm and nano <2mm plastics are being found in almost every corner of the earths air, water and food. Small enough to rival asbestos, and may follow filters diesel particles health concerns.
In 5 years time 16% of the earths rain forest will be left, of which when at 100% only covered 20% of the globes land mass. In 7 years time New Gunie will have no rainforest left at current clearing rates. And once rain forest is cleared it can never be replanted or duplicated, because the climate changes. Its why its called rain forrest.
Most land clearing is primarily done to make way for beef, or grow crops to then feed to beef, so humans can eat meat. So if you eat meat you are perhaps stocking the boilers of the second biggest cause of climate change. Pastoralist think the drought is just farming hardship and has nothing to do with them, however in the 1800 their for fathers cleared the land extensively for sheep and beef, and since then most bulldoze or ring bark trees, not plant them.
Cows then fart methane gas contributing to green house gas emissions, along with all the rubbish we bury these days from wasted food scraps.
Extinction rates of indigenous animals and plants rise at rates not seen before, along with introduced pests and weeds rates, and biodiversity is in sharp decline.
Ice masses in the northern hemphisphere are melting at rates far far greater then expected. And the warming of the ocean waters is causing huge issues with micro organisms that make up the foundation of marine ecosystems. There is perhaps more I can mention but it gets a bit demoralising.

So for the nay sayers, well you keep doing nothing and happily live in denial. For the ones who feel a bit alarmed, or wonder what the **** have we given to the kids, there is plenty to recycle and renewable stuff you can do that does make a difference. Buying an EV as your next vehicle will be a very good step in the right direction.

[DazzaTD5]

I'm sorry but the whole electric cars are going to save the planet or you are doing the right thing in getting a electric car is laughable.....
Electric cars just like recycling in Australia is nothing more than making consumers feel all warm and fuzzy in the happy care bear world they live in.

World wide:
Look at the horrific environmental vandalism going on daily by industry.
Look at the horrific living conditions that people are forced to live in.
Look at the horrific working conditions people are forced to work in.
Look at the horrific oppression and exploitation people suffer in the world.

Look at:
*The working conditions people suffer in third world countries that mine the precious metals used in making your electric car.
*The processes used to make batteries for your electric car and the waste by products.
*Look at the environment where the waste from the mines and the battery processes end up.

But as long as consumers in the western world have that warm fuzzy feeling when putting rubbish in the recycle bin, driving their electric car to the local cafe, and bitch about their mobile phone etc etc its all good right?

[bee utey]

But as long as consumers in the western world have that warm fuzzy feeling when putting rubbish in the recycle bin, driving their electric car to the local cafe, and bitch about their mobile phone etc etc its all good right?

It must feel good burning all those strawmen of your imagination...[biggrin]

Anyway, electric cars are only one small part of the decarbonisation effort, and anyone who's well read would know that. Also, another good reason to go for an electric car is the same reason people went for LPG in the past: much of our refined motor fuel is imported. In a fuel shortage you can still drive about.

Australia still not meeting oil reserve obligations and Netherlands treaty may not add enough - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-13/australia-still-not-meeting-oil-reserve-obligations/10114906)

[manic]

... there is plenty to recycle and renewable stuff you can do that does make a difference. Buying an EV as your next vehicle will be a very good step in the right direction.


Encouraging people to buy things they dont need is what got us into this mess in the first place.

[weeds]

Yep the world is rooted......there ain’t no way modern society will turn it around.

I do bits and pieces.....war against waste, moving to a more plant based diet etc....but sadly it won’t be enough.

[Dervish]

...

Scatter-gun argument, nice. Why make a point when you can make 15 irrelevant ones?


Encouraging people to buy things they dont need is what got us into this mess in the first place.

Hydrocarbon fuels are the things we won't need, ya peanut. You buy a lot more fuel than car when operating a vehicle over its life. C'mon, it's pretty simple.

[DazzaTD5]

It must feel good burning all those strawmen of your imagination...[biggrin]



lol lol lol ..... it sure does [tonguewink][tonguewink]

[DazzaTD5]

Hydrocarbon fuels are the things we won't need

So after refining the crude oil what do we do with all the petrol, diesel, heavy fuel or does it go to magical pixie land too?

[manic]

Scatter-gun argument, nice. Why make a point when you can make 15 irrelevant ones?



Hydrocarbon fuels are the things we won't need, ya peanut. You buy a lot more fuel than car when operating a vehicle over its life. C'mon, it's pretty simple.The embodied emissions of a car can rival the exhaust pipe emissions over its entire lifetime.

New cars should absolutley be EV, no more ICE. I said that a few posts up.

But if you are buying a new vehicle every few years for emissions/range/technology improvements you are probably doing far more damage than the old guy who decides to drive his banger to the grave.

[bee utey]

But if you are buying a new vehicle every few years for emissions/range/technology improvements you are probably doing far more damage than the old guy who decides to drive his banger to the grave.

Unless you always destroy your car instead of trading it in, this is a poor argument. Used car purchasers benefit from low km cars being available. Where would poor people be if the only used cars available were 1995 Camrys? One shudders to think of the indignity.

[bee utey]

So after refining the crude oil what do we do with all the petrol, diesel, heavy fuel or does it go to magical pixie land too?

I don't think that industrial chemists snort pixie dust, but can convert their refineries to make whatever product is in demand. That could be durable consumer goods such as lightweight vehicle components, or even single use plastic bags if that is where the demand is. They could even buy less crude oil if demand dropped enough, who knows.

[goingbush]

I'll just leave this video here



https://www.facebook.com/extremetube/videos/1475380382572217/

"Tesla-powered electric dune buggy accelerate shockingly fast in sand


With a rated peak power capacity of 475 kW (636 HP), it has to make the ‘Tesla Sand Truck’ one of the most powerful electric dune vehicles out there."

[manic]

Where would poor people be if the only used cars available were 1995 Camrys? One shudders to think of the indignity.

Haha.. it wont make a blind bit of difference. They will still buy new cars on finance!

[bee utey]

Haha.. it wont make a blind bit of difference. They will still buy new cars on finance!

Any yet there is a healthy market for good used cars. This forum wouldn't exist if people only bought new.

[manic]

Imagine if the battery packs required to push a camry 400km became small enough and as cheap to buy as say, an old 95 camry. The second hand ICE market would largly become a buy to convert market. I would love to see this happen.

If conversions were then pushed by media and government as a good choice for the sake of enviromental impact and benefits to small/medium businesses in Australia...... we would be dreaming!

[DazzaTD5]

I don't think that industrial chemists snort pixie dust, but can convert their refineries to make whatever product is in demand. That could be durable consumer goods such as lightweight vehicle components, or even single use plastic bags if that is where the demand is. They could even buy less crude oil if demand dropped enough, who knows.

How possibly could demand drop for crude oil, another unrealistic idea, certainly not with a EV, all that plastic? (yes just like a dirty petrol/diesel car), all that dirty industry manufacturing batteries.

I am not against EV transport, just the unrealistic view of how much benefit its going to give especially the likes of Tesla.
But I am against the detrimental effect it has on people mostly in third world countries that dont get a say. people dont want to talk about this aspect of building an electric car.
Is Tesla doing any sort of ethic supply chain check?
Already demand is out stripping supply for precious metals used in electric car construction.

EVs are not going to make a difference let alone quick enough.

[Eevo]

all of the arguments are invalid as its been proven the earth is flat.

[manic]

I kinda agree with Dazza on some of those points. We have hit a level of saturation with car ownership and should have learnt some lessons along the way.

The shift to EV could easily be exploited by political and media pressure for the benefits of big business under the guise of environmental reform. This could lead to government legislation that effectively puts millions of cars in the crusher and enforces a mass resupply of vehicles with increased enviromental fall out from manufacturing.

We need to make greater efforts to recycle and repurpose. I would hate to see such a huge change over pushed through and then have people ditching their ICar8 soon as the ICarX comes out just because it has face recognition and a sleeker grill. Or e-cars piled up because their battery packs cannot be economically replaced. There would be no progress there, it wont be sustainable, with growing populations the enviromental impact would only get worse.

[bee utey]

How possibly could demand drop for crude oil, another unrealistic idea, certainly not with a EV, all that plastic? (yes just like a dirty petrol/diesel car), all that dirty industry manufacturing batteries.

I am not against EV transport, just the unrealistic view of how much benefit its going to give especially the likes of Tesla.
But I am against the detrimental effect it has on people mostly in third world countries that dont get a say. people dont want to talk about this aspect of building an electric car.
Is Tesla doing any sort of ethic supply chain check?
Already demand is out stripping supply for precious metals used in electric car construction.

EVs are not going to make a difference let alone quick enough.

So you're saying that making a half ton of recyclable plastic parts has a bigger environmental footprint than burning multiple tons of hydrocarbons to drive an ICE vehicle over its lifespan? Foundries for casting engine parts are cleaner than battery plants? Australia is a third world country? And when millions of tons of dead batteries are collected, no-one will work out how to effectively recycle the rare metals contained in them?

Better just keep burning stinky ****, because choking the person behind you is so much more important than doing your bit. :bat:

[bee utey]

all of the arguments are invalid as its been proven the earth is flat.

As flat as the back of your head. [biggrin]

[Eevo]

As flat as the back of your head. [biggrin]

it happens when your dropped on your head as a baby.

[goingbush]

The Arab Oil Nations can see the writing on the wall . Get in while they can !!


Report: Saudi Arabia is looking to invest big in Tesla as the company teases going private | Business Insider (https://www.businessinsider.com.au/saudi-wealth-fund-tesla-stake-private-2018-8?utm_content=buffer46342&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer-cars&r=US&IR=T)

[goingbush]

Here is the perfect world for some of you guys ( Apart from the Electric Car at the end)


https://youtu.be/XQWG9zriXV4

[Dervish]

And when millions of tons of dead batteries are collected, no-one will work out how to effectively recycle the rare metals contained in them?

Home - Australian Battery Recycling Initiative (http://www.batteryrecycling.org.au/home)

Li-ion batteries aren't a new thing, we've been recycling them for years. The market will certainly experience growing pains over the next while though.

[manic]

This is going to be marketing gold!

Next up, a small black and white room full of cigarette smokers, emotive music, and a baby crying on a cold dusty floor. Before cutting to a new electric ford in full colour on a sunny leafy suburban driveway.

Im gonna feel so bad. We all need to buy new e-cars ASAP!

[goingbush]

Worth a look . on Battery Recycling


https://youtu.be/ZCCBPDudcgo

[newhue]

My 1995 Camry (ICE) was returning 7.6l/100km. I have logged 2 1/2 years of travel in it and that is the average over that 2 1/2 years. In that time I travelled 123370 km and spent $11309.67 on fuel. This translates to $229.18 in 2500km.
The car I am in at the moment is a current model ICE car. It is returning 7l/100km. I have had it a little over a week. In that week I travelled 977km and put $96.66 in the tank. It was full at the start of the week and I filled it at 977km. This translates to $247.34 in 2500km.

I would like to draw to your attention you are saving nine cents per km on a $400 Camry. How much did that Prius cost you?
I reckon you will have to travel 400,000km in that Prius to match my car and fuel cost with yours. Oh, how long do the batteries last?

I'm off to look for another 20yo Camry. They survive roo strikes. Best car on the road today.


Mick I'm happy for you. For what its worth I'm not a spread sheet type guy, I'm pretty general. The prius cost us 18K second hand in 2017, it was 2016 model with 20K km ex Toyota Australia run around. I admit a 1.5lt motor set for 105 to 110kmh on cruise control is not the best for economy. And I guess the two ruc sacs on the roof rack resembling a tent, the full boot, and its 4 passengers were also not the best move for economy. The wife tells me she puts $30 in and gets 780klm before she fills again. She's would like to get 800km but doesn't like the idea of driving it to when the fuel light comes on, so she works from the digital low fuel mark.

I also like that it has stability, traction and abs which perhaps your 20 year old car might have. When the roo hopped out on us just past Stanthorpe at 2 in the morning, it sure woke the family up as I slammed the brakes on then swerved to miss this most beautiful animal. I don't know what all this translate into but its sure more economical and user friendly than the 2003 1.8lt Ford Focus we traded.

[newhue]

Worth a look . on Battery Recycling


Nice find GB, I don't see the fossil fuel industry recycling filters, seals, gaskets and other consumables from their industry products.

[newhue]

Yep the world is rooted......there ain’t no way modern society will turn it around.

I do bits and pieces.....war against waste, moving to a more plant based diet etc....but sadly it won’t be enough.

Na don't believe it, you can start by not voting and demanding a better political system. Germany has strong unions and successful companies competing on a global market. Australia has a 2 party preferred political system endlessly bickering over company profits and workers rights to name just one point. Its no wonder they have trashed manufacturing in Australia.

Plant trees, it takes roughly 8 trees 8m high to keep you alive in personal air per year. Chuck in your consumption of transport, manufacturing, and energy and it bumps up to around 60 for the average punter. How many big trees have you planted recently of even in ones life. Even ditching exotics and replacing then with indigenous is a very good start, it helps local native biodiversity survive.

embrace renewable technologies. Our power bill has gone from $550 a quarter to $50, with the pool, aircon, and 3 bedrooms. I'm confident I'll be in front along with the planet in the future.

consume less or buy second hand, ask do I need this or just want this. Low debt equals big life, and the best thing in life are usually free. Camping, family, friends, sunsets, not hard really.

Eat less meat, preferably none. However eating less or smaller portions is not only great for your overall health, it cost less, and will help immensely.

Its all choices, and weather one gives a rip. Humans are here for 80 years roughly, and think mostly about themselves. We are here and now focused and don't think of ourselves as custodians, rather I'm worth it generally. Then we breed and tend to care less because we get busy, and the cycle repeats. We compare to much, and think others think far more of us than the do. We take an consume an awful lot and contribute little to the world that we live on. The planet is resilient, it just needs a chance or due respect.

Yes its in trouble, big trouble actually, but its a choice.

[goingbush]

Interesting hypothetical, post by Chris Jones taken from AEVA.

Numerous studies have shown that in car-dominant countries like Australia, the UK and North America, over 95% of passenger vehicle trips are under 50 km. The driving range of most ICE vehicles is in excess of 350 km per fill, so all of these short daily trips can be done without the need to visit a filling station on the way.


As a thought exercise, let’s say all ICE vehicles in the world only had a 10 litre fuel tank, effectively limiting their range to about 100 km. However, let’s say there was a means to fully refuel the vehicle at home or at work without ever needing to visit a filling station – even better, the fuel is 1/3 the cost of what you would pay at a filling station. The catch it that it takes 8 hours to fill the tank because the flow of liquid fuel was limited to about 1 litre per hour. Considering the reduced cost of fuel and the convenience of unattended filling, most people will elect to fill up at home. Under these circumstances, the number of filling stations could be dropped from an estimated 100 million worldwide to just 5 million, or one for every 200 vehicles. These 5 million stations exist primarily to serve the needs of long distance travellers.


The above hypothetical highlights the significance of electric vehicles (EVs) and how they are set to disrupt the global transport energy market. Better grab that Chicko Roll while you're there!

[Homestar]

Interesting hypothetical, post by Chris Jones taken from AEVA.

Numerous studies have shown that in car-dominant countries like Australia, the UK and North America, over 95% of passenger vehicle trips are under 50 km. The driving range of most ICE vehicles is in excess of 350 km per fill, so all of these short daily trips can be done without the need to visit a filling station on the way.


As a thought exercise, let’s say all ICE vehicles in the world only had a 10 litre fuel tank, effectively limiting their range to about 100 km. However, let’s say there was a means to fully refuel the vehicle at home or at work without ever needing to visit a filling station – even better, the fuel is 1/3 the cost of what you would pay at a filling station. The catch it that it takes 8 hours to fill the tank because the flow of liquid fuel was limited to about 1 litre per hour. Considering the reduced cost of fuel and the convenience of unattended filling, most people will elect to fill up at home. Under these circumstances, the number of filling stations could be dropped from an estimated 100 million worldwide to just 5 million, or one for every 200 vehicles. These 5 million stations exist primarily to serve the needs of long distance travellers.


The above hypothetical highlights the significance of electric vehicles (EVs) and how they are set to disrupt the global transport energy market. Better grab that Chicko Roll while you're there!

Let me play devils advocate for a moment - you know I'm pro EV but to counter the above argument - While I'm sure no one would say no to the hypothetical of having an ICE vehicle with small tank if they could fill up at home each night for a fraction of the cost of a servo, the bit about the stations existing for long distance travelers doesn't translate if you flip it back to EV in my opinion. If an EV could be filled back to capacity in a couple of minutes - the equivalent of the time taken to fill an ICE vehicle, then it would be a no brainer, but I think people are put off by long charge times. Yes, most of their trips will be short commutes, but if they can't go on a long weekend drive, then it defeats the purpose of buying one. This is the issue I face with SWMBO - I have discussed getting an EV for her as most of her trips are short (daily commute is 70KM return) but she has friends and family over 300KM away she visits some weekends, which is where EV falls down. I think an EV would get her one way maybe, but then if you need to find an outlet at your friends place - who will only have a 10 amp outlet, use a heap of their power and take a day to charge it due to limited current draw. This just doesn't compute to the average joe, we have been too well trained and brainwashed in the convenience of petrol unfortunately.

Another example is me at work - while all the OEM's talk about drop dead dates for removing ICE vehicles from their line ups, what I am going to drive for work? I average 1000KM a week, some days travelling 500KM or more in a day - and still having to fit in site visits, etc and do my job - not sure what I'll do when ICE vehicles are gone, it would make doing my job pretty much impossible.

I think this is why Hydrogen makes more sense in the long run, but that's another story.

Solve that issue and I'm sure the majority would get on board.

[goingbush]

Not an issue really , by the time new EV's are mandated , Fast charge will be the norm .

Don't know about you but I try to force myself into having a rest stop every few hours on long trips, But it rarely happens , I keep going & then when I stop to fill up I usually have a meal / coffee etc & take 45min. Plenty of time to fast charge an EV with current tech.

Hydrogen is cool but cant see it happening, oh wait , in Australia yes with the dickheads that run our country , it could happen.

[Mick_Marsh]

Hydrogen and FCVs.
It's in California and is coming to Australia.
It is the future.

First Came the Hydrogen Cars. Now, the Refilling Stations. - The New York Times (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/18/automobiles/wheels/first-came-the-hydrogen-cars-now-the-refilling-stations.html)

Terms of Service Violation (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-02-20/shell-takes-one-small-step-to-fuel-toyota-s-giant-hydrogen-leap)

[Homestar]

But what is 'fast charge'? 5 minutes? 1/2 hour? An hour?

Oh and I stop every 4 hours or so for 5 minutes mostly - maybe sometimes. Wouldn't be uncommon to leave home at 4am and roll into Adelaide 8 hours later - only stopping because I'm low on fuel.

[goingbush]

But what is 'fast charge'? 5 minutes? 1/2 hour? An hour?

Oh and I stop every 4 hours or so for 5 minutes mostly - maybe sometimes. Wouldn't be uncommon to leave home at 4am and roll into Adelaide 8 hours later - only stopping because I'm low on fuel.

The Current Tritium Fast charge is 150km worth of charge in 5 min ,... Australian Tech rolling out in Germany
Ultra fast charge coming soon . Imagine it will be as fast as filling up with petrol in a year or two , or faster (instant) with SuperCapacitors that then bleed into the storage pack.

Tritium lands massive EU-wide deal for EV fast-chargers | RenewEconomy (https://reneweconomy.com.au/tritium-lands-massive-eu-wide-deal-ev-fast-chargers-84878/)

[Silenceisgolden]

or faster (instant) with SuperCapacitors that then bleed into the storage pack.



But...but....but... instant charge if by electricity means infinite current, and that could blow the mightiest of fuses.[bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle]

[goingbush]

But...but....but... instant charge if by electricity means infinite current, and that could blow the mightiest of fuses.[bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle]

That is where you would use a "pre-charge" resistor.

All modern Ev's already have one to stop blowing the crap out of the Electronics then you introduce the traction pack contactor to 600 Amps .

[newhue]

Whats wrong with taking a break every 2 hours to avoid fatigue. A 20 minute charge, coffee, stretch doesn't seem that much longer then a fossil stop. There is the advantage when you stop you just plug it in and walk away, no need to stand there and hold the fill hose. Then if one must go if 20 minutes = 500km, 10 minutes will be another 250km. If one prides themselves on 750k in a day on a 10 minute stop, please only drive when no one else is on the road.

[donh54]

Whats wrong with taking a break every 2 hours to avoid fatigue. A 20 minute charge, coffee, stretch doesn't seem that much longer then a fossil stop. There is the advantage when you stop you just plug it in and walk away, no need to stand there and hold the fill hose. Then if one must go if 20 minutes = 500km, 10 minutes will be another 250km. If one prides themselves on 750k in a day on a 10 minute stop, please only drive when no one else is on the road.

What about the other 500 cars wanting to charge up at the same time? Imagine the news reports of "charger rage" - "That SOB was so slow getting back with his Chai Latte, that I let his tyres down! That'll teach him to dawdle!"
:firedevil:

I am not against the principle of EV's. Like so-called Smart cars, they are useful to a certain number of people, in certain situations. What I do object to, is the green-washing, almost to the point of religious fervour, by some sections of the media with (as usual) little or no regard for reality. They are talking of tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of diesel vehicles being arbitrarily banned from cities throughout Europe, as if this is a great leap forward. They have effectively destroyed the resale value of a big proportion of the European car market, the majority of which are privately owned. If you have ever traveled through a city late at night, or been involved in transport/distribution, you would have a small inkling of the amount of heavy vehicle (read diesel) traffic involved in keeping a city running, from stocking the shelves, to carting away the rubbish. But apparently, their politicians must have all these problems figured out!
[bigwhistle]

I also hope that the EV owners realise that a commercial rollout of charge points will inevitably mean that the fee for using them (a "charge/charge" if you like) will increase, thus making less economic sense to own one, rather than an ICE, unless used only for short trips, charged from your home power source (the cost of which will never go up, of course!)
[bigrolf]

I haven't heard anyone yet giving actual figures of how much their home power bill has risen, since purchasing their EV. There is also, as I understand it, the need to have an electrician install a 15 amp point to charge from, and, if wishing to take advantage of off-peak power prices, a separate circuit for that. In general, the Australian power distribution system (like the data system the NBN is piggy-backing on) is barely up to capacity for the loads it is trying to handle now. Imagine the hue and cry from the power retailers when their "gold plated" systems start buckling under the load of multiple EVs in a street all plugging in at around the same time. Back to "brownouts" sound like fun?

[Silenceisgolden]

That is where you would use a "pre-charge" resistor.

All modern Ev's already have one to stop blowing the crap out of the Electronics then you introduce the traction pack contactor to 600 Amps .

I am splitting hairs, but stick a resistor in and it won't be instant. It may be quick, but it won't be instant.

[Mick_Marsh]

I also hope that the EV owners realise that a commercial rollout of charge points will inevitably mean that the fee for using them (a "charge/charge" if you like) will increase, thus making less economic sense to own one, rather than an ICE, unless used only for short trips, charged from your home power source (the cost of which will never go up, of course!)
One energy company is offering $1 per day for EV charging. $365 per year on top of your electricity bill. How it works, I don't know. It must have a dedicated circuit. Maybe bypassing metering.

I haven't heard anyone yet giving actual figures of how much their home power bill has risen, since purchasing their EV. There is also, as I understand it, the need to have an electrician install a 15 amp point to charge from, and, if wishing to take advantage of off-peak power prices, a separate circuit for that.
15A domestic? Little difference to a 10A. You'd more likely need 3 phase. I reckon I would.

[PhilipA]

I often wonder at the insistance of EV advocates about how cheap an EV is to run.
Surely the issue is whole of life cost.
I did some back of envelope calculations yesterday on the cost of running a Tesla Model 3 vs a base Camry.
Model3 BASE at $55,000 Camry at $27000, both figures from internet sources.

After 10 years the operating cost of the Camry at say 10L per100Km at 20000 kms per year and $ 1.50 per litre =$30,000.
BUT most of that expenditure is out at least 5 -10 years which has a much lower net present value.(NPV)

I am not fussed enough to do the complete calculation at say 5% discount rate but the NPV of the fuel is much less than $30000 maybe approaching half of that.

Resale value . What is a Model 3 going to be worth in 10 years when the battery warranty is out? What will be the cost of a new battery $20K by the looks? A Camry will have some value maybe $5000. Based on the 400,000 mile Tesla , how many batteries will a model 3 need in 200,000K? One , two?

To All those rivet counters who say what about servicing costs registration etc.
I say how long will it be before Teslas will have an operating tax on them and how long will electricity be cheap? Not long from recent Government events.

The real costs are areas of pure speculation as so much is unknown about the future running costs of the Teslas and other EVs but the running costs of a Camry are pretty well known..

I always laugh at the idea of the Tesla X and Tesla whatever drivers who boast about their running costs . You would want cheap running costs after spending over $200K for one alright.

I think conventional and hybrids will be around for a very long time.
Regards Philip A

[bee utey]

What about the other 500 cars wanting to charge up at the same time? Imagine the news reports of "charger rage" - "That SOB was so slow getting back with his Chai Latte, that I let his tyres down! That'll teach him to dawdle!"
:firedevil:

I am not against the principle of EV's. Like so-called Smart cars, they are useful to a certain number of people, in certain situations. What I do object to, is the green-washing, almost to the point of religious fervour, by some sections of the media with (as usual) little or no regard for reality. They are talking of tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of diesel vehicles being arbitrarily banned from cities throughout Europe, as if this is a great leap forward. They have effectively destroyed the resale value of a big proportion of the European car market, the majority of which are privately owned. If you have ever traveled through a city late at night, or been involved in transport/distribution, you would have a small inkling of the amount of heavy vehicle (read diesel) traffic involved in keeping a city running, from stocking the shelves, to carting away the rubbish. But apparently, their politicians must have all these problems figured out!
[bigwhistle]

I also hope that the EV owners realise that a commercial rollout of charge points will inevitably mean that the fee for using them (a "charge/charge" if you like) will increase, thus making less economic sense to own one, rather than an ICE, unless used only for short trips, charged from your home power source (the cost of which will never go up, of course!)
[bigrolf]

I haven't heard anyone yet giving actual figures of how much their home power bill has risen, since purchasing their EV. There is also, as I understand it, the need to have an electrician install a 15 amp point to charge from, and, if wishing to take advantage of off-peak power prices, a separate circuit for that. In general, the Australian power distribution system (like the data system the NBN is piggy-backing on) is barely up to capacity for the loads it is trying to handle now. Imagine the hue and cry from the power retailers when their "gold plated" systems start buckling under the load of multiple EVs in a street all plugging in at around the same time. Back to "brownouts" sound like fun?

Crikey, talk about obsessing over easily solved problems. Power supply, grid management, communication, storage, cars and trucks will all evolve together to manage most of the problems mentioned. And when systems fail, it won't be much different to the petrol station queues during fuel shortages that happened all too frequently in the 70's and 80's.

A thing that won't change is the ability of people to whinge about losing precious seconds out of their mundane lives waiting for queues to shift. Learn, adapt, calm down, enjoy life a little more. [bighmmm]

[goingbush]

I often wonder at the insistance of EV advocates about how cheap an EV is to run.
Surely the issue is whole of life cost.
I did some back of envelope calculations yesterday on the cost of running a Tesla Model 3 vs a base Camry.
Model3 BASE at $55,000 Camry at $27000, both figures from internet sources.

After 10 years the operating cost of the Camry at say 10L per100Km at 20000 kms per year and $ 1.50 per litre =$30,000.
BUT most of that expenditure is out at least 5 -10 years which has a much lower net present value.(NPV)

I am not fussed enough to do the complete calculation at say 5% discount rate but the NPV of the fuel is much less than $30000 maybe approaching half of that.

Resale value . What is a Model 3 going to be worth in 10 years when the battery warranty is out? What will be the cost of a new battery $20K by the looks? A Camry will have some value maybe $5000. Based on the 400,000 mile Tesla , how many batteries will a model 3 need in 200,000K? One , two?

To All those rivet counters who say what about servicing costs registration etc.
I say how long will it be before Teslas will have an operating tax on them and how long will electricity be cheap? Not long from recent Government events.

The real costs are areas of pure speculation as so much is unknown about the future running costs of the Teslas and other EVs but the running costs of a Camry are pretty well known..

I always laugh at the idea of the Tesla X and Tesla whatever drivers who boast about their running costs . You would want cheap running costs after spending over $200K for one alright.

I think conventional and hybrids will be around for a very long time.
Regards Philip A

Your not factoring in that Petrol / diesel prices will rise as the cost of batteries will lower . Nor are you factoring in the resale value of petrol cars will be close to scrap value for the same reason

Apart from Tyres & wiper blades / washer fluid , Electric cars are basically maintenance free , No Exhaust / hoses / belts / oil / filters / plugs / cooling system etc etc & brakes last 10x longer (at least) . This is why Car salesman are anti-electric car and not selling them , because they are selling their service networks down the drain, where most of the money is made.

One battery will easily last 200k so long as its routinely not charged / drained 100% as per EV handbook.

[goingbush]

What about the other 500 cars wanting to charge up at the same time? Imagine the news reports of "charger rage" - "That SOB was so slow getting back with his Chai Latte, that I let his tyres down! That'll teach him to dawdle!"

Is why you charge at home . Imagine if everyone took their phone to a Charging station to charge it , Yep charger rage.

If people filled their cars at home from a Jerry Can you would not have to Queue up either.






I haven't heard anyone yet giving actual figures of how much their home power bill has risen, since purchasing their EV. There is also, as I understand it, the need to have an electrician install a 15 amp point to charge from, and, if wishing to take advantage of off-peak power prices, a separate circuit for that. In general, the Australian power distribution system (like the data system the NBN is piggy-backing on) is barely up to capacity for the loads it is trying to handle now. Imagine the hue and cry from the power retailers when their "gold plated" systems start buckling under the load of multiple EVs in a street all plugging in at around the same time. Back to "brownouts" sound like fun?

If you own an Electric Car and are dumb enough not to have installed Solar Panels in my opinion is as stupid as someone that smokes cigarettes , Money to burn (literally) and no regard for their own , or other peoples well being.

Having a 15 Amp socket installed at the same time as your Solar might add $30 -$50 to the cost. Don't think its a deal breaker.

[Silenceisgolden]

Is why you charge at home .


If you own an Electric Car and are dumb enough not to have installed Solar Panels in my opinion is as stupid as someone that smokes cigarettes , Money to burn (literally) and no regard for their own , or other peoples well being.

Having a 15 Amp socket installed at the same time as your Solar might add $30 -$50 to the cost. Don't think its a deal breaker.

Trouble is, lotsa people take their cars to work during hours of sunshine so their roof-top solar at home ain't much use.

[Eevo]

Is why you charge at home .
i think he was talking about doing long journeys. like adel to melb or melb or syd

[Eevo]

Your not factoring in that Petrol / diesel prices will rise as the cost of batteries will lower . .

less demands for oil, lower oil prices.
lower petrol/diesel prices.

[PhilipA]

Your not factoring in that Petrol / diesel prices will rise as the cost of batteries will lower . Nor are you factoring in the resale value of petrol cars will be close to scrap value for the same reason

I can recall a similar discussion in about 2007 when the hot topic was Peak Oil. I said then that in 10 years time oil would probably be the same price now as then, and it has been MUCH cheaper until recently and is only about the same now because of politics not supply. And really it is about 50% cheaper inflation adjusted. Remember the furore when it got to $1.50 in 2007?

I read somewhere recently that most of the easy technological advances had now taken place with lithium batteries and the author doubted that there would be great reductions in cost. Again supply and demand will determine cost and maybe the demand for electric tools and appliances will keep up the price. I recently bought a Ryobi Lithium mower for example, something unthinkable 10 years ago.
I am grappling with fitting a Lithium battery to my camper trailer , how to charge , how to isolate etc. There are many uses other than EVs that have not been thought of yet.

Of course some new technology could come along that is far superior to Lithium and maybe safer. What would be the value of current EVs then?

The trouble with all the speculation re EVs is it is just that. It is "The next BIG thing" . Has been for about 120Years.
Regards Philip A

[Mick_Marsh]

I can recall a similar discussion in about 2007 when the hot topic was Peak Oil. I said then that in 10 years time oil would probably be the same price now as then, and it has been MUCH cheaper until recently and is only about the same now because of politics not supply. And really it is about 50% cheaper inflation adjusted. Remember the furore when it got to $1.50 in 2007?
Reminds me of this headline from 2008:
$8 a litre tipped for 2018 (https://www.smh.com.au/national/8-a-litre-tipped-for-2018-20080710-3d6w.html)
How wrong were they, the CSIRO.

And yet, earlier this month, Russia and Iran signed a deal to exploit the huge oil and gas fields in the Caspian Sea.
Rich in oil, gas, and caviar: Five countries move to settle decades-long Caspian dispute — why now? - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-13/five-countries-settle-decades-long-caspian-sea-dispute/10112732)

[goingbush]

<snip>

Of course some new technology could come along that is far superior to Lithium and maybe safer. What would be the value of current EVs then?



Bring it on , I know I just spent $11,000 on Lithiums but bring on the new tech to replace them with. Luckily these are going to Last 350,000km so It will be a long wait. They will see me out as I've only done 3500 km in 7 months & thats driving it almost daily . Don't think I'll be around in 58 years to replace them, some young punk will take possession & probably do a Hover Landy mod on it when the batteries are getting swapped out

[manic]

Bring it on , I know I just spent $11,000 on Lithiums but bring on the new tech to replace them with. Luckily these are going to Last 350,000km so It will be a long wait. They will see me out as I've only done 3500 km in 7 months & thats driving it almost daily . Don't think I'll be around in 58 years to replace them, some young punk will take possession & probably do a Hover Landy mod on it when the batteries are getting swapped out

I love your enthusiasm for battery powered EVs, your lightweight conversion has inspired me.

How can you say with confidence that your battery pack will last 350,000km? That would be great. The cost of a large enough battery pack and degridation fears have me holding off my own project. Can you please post a battery degridation report at the end of each year, or keep us posted in some way, Im very interested to see how they hold up in your landy. LifePo?

Oh, and they better get busy with that hover landy tech, cos the hover board didnt come quick enough!

[goingbush]

I love your enthusiasm for battery powered EVs, your lightweight conversion has inspired me.

How can you say with confidence that your battery pack will last 350,000km? That would be great. The cost of a large enough battery pack and degridation fears have me holding off my own project. Can you please post a battery degridation report at the end of each year, or keep us posted in some way, Im very interested to see how they hold up in your landy. LifePo?

Oh, and they better get busy with that hover landy tech, cos the hover board didnt come quick enough!

The 350,000 is hypothetical. The cells I have are LiFePo4 , Lithium Iron Phosphate , Factory documentation has them at minimum 2000 charge cycles 80% DOD (Depth of Discharge) and 3000 cycles at 70% DOD ,

Charge cycle lifetime is also dependant of rate of charge, the figures quoted are at 1C , (200Amps for my cells) My 3.3kw charger puts out 22 Amps , so the life cycle is significantly more than quoted.

I typically charge at 50% DOD ( about 70km) for an estimated (quoted @ 1C) 5000 charge cycles x 70km = 350,000km

[manic]

Interesting. So fast high amp charging degrades the pack faster than slow charging.

If you use a public tesla station how many amps will it push, do you restrict the charge rate?

Over the years you will have to take very good care of those batteries. I imagine if you ever fall short of a destination you will have to decide if its worth pushing a higher dodc or call in a recovery. And there might be times where you are tempted by a faster charge rate.

The required level of care is easier for some than others. Having made note of your attention to detail I rekon you might just make it. Keep us posted.

[PhilipA]

The 350,000 is hypothetical. The cells I have are LiFePo4 , Lithium Iron Phosphate , Factory documentation has them at minimum 2000 charge cycles 80% DOD (Depth of Discharge) and 3000 cycles at 70% DOD ,
Er hang on.
Didn't you recently have a failed battery . You replied to my post stating that LRO had noted a range of 70 miles in their article on your project.
Regards Philip A

[goingbush]

Er hang on.
Didn't you recently have a failed battery . You replied to my post stating that LRO had noted a range of 70 miles in their article on your project.
Regards Philip A



Yes out of the 46 cells I originally bought I installed 45 (one spare) I had one unusable cell so swapped it out with the spare, It reached the charge voltage I set in the BMS (4.45v) well before the other 45 cells , thus preventing the other cells reaching 4.45v as the BMS switches off the charger to prevent any one cell over charging. 4.6V is considered 100% SOC , anything over 4.8V kills the cell dead.

Of the remainder of the 45 cells 3 cells reach the Low voltage I set the BMS to cut off (2.9V) whilst the rest of the pack is still at 3.2V , so 3 cells are preventing the Battery from full useful discharge. 100% discharged is 2.6V (anything under 2.4V is dead - unrecoverable) And One more Cell still was going high early.

This is my fault for buying cheap arse SinoPoly Cells at $222 each , instead of paying $288 each for CALB cells .
(basically the same cells but clearly without the QC checks)

Full DOD is from 2.6 to 4.6v , I have my BMS set from 2.9 to 4.45v so I can never overcharge or over discharge a cell.

In real terms it made no difference to range per Kwh , I just had access to less kwh.

A few weeks ago I have received 4 x new cells & solved the battery pack problem. I also beefed up the back end with a TrueTrac & Ashcroft 24spline axles so reprogrammed controller to make full use of regen ( thought it would snap an axle before) & I get more km per charge as a result of that too.

[goingbush]

Interesting. So fast high amp charging degrades the pack faster than slow charging.

If you use a public tesla station how many amps will it push, do you restrict the charge rate?

Over the years you will have to take very good care of those batteries. I imagine if you ever fall short of a destination you will have to decide if its worth pushing a higher dodc or call in a recovery. And there might be times where you are tempted by a faster charge rate.

The required level of care is easier for some than others. Having made note of your attention to detail I rekon you might just make it. Keep us posted.


yes , thus the article on the Tesla that had covered 400,000 miles and had to change out 2 battery packs because he regularly fast charges and frequent charges to 100% against handbook advice.

Occasional fast charging and occasional 100% SOC charging wont be an issue , EG normal use = home charging to commute & occasional long trips with Fast Charging = no dramas.

[newhue]

What about the other 500 cars wanting to charge up at the same time? Imagine the news reports of "charger rage" - "That SOB was so slow getting back with his Chai Latte, that I let his tyres down! That'll teach him to dawdle!"
:firedevil:

I am not against the principle of EV's. Like so-called Smart cars, they are useful to a certain number of people, in certain situations. What I do object to, is the green-washing, almost to the point of religious fervour, by some sections of the media with (as usual) little or no regard for reality. They are talking of tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of diesel vehicles being arbitrarily banned from cities throughout Europe, as if this is a great leap forward. They have effectively destroyed the resale value of a big proportion of the European car market, the majority of which are privately owned. If you have ever traveled through a city late at night, or been involved in transport/distribution, you would have a small inkling of the amount of heavy vehicle (read diesel) traffic involved in keeping a city running, from stocking the shelves, to carting away the rubbish. But apparently, their politicians must have all these problems figured out!
[bigwhistle]

I also hope that the EV owners realise that a commercial rollout of charge points will inevitably mean that the fee for using them (a "charge/charge" if you like) will increase, thus making less economic sense to own one, rather than an ICE, unless used only for short trips, charged from your home power source (the cost of which will never go up, of course!)
[bigrolf]

I haven't heard anyone yet giving actual figures of how much their home power bill has risen, since purchasing their EV. There is also, as I understand it, the need to have an electrician install a 15 amp point to charge from, and, if wishing to take advantage of off-peak power prices, a separate circuit for that. In general, the Australian power distribution system (like the data system the NBN is piggy-backing on) is barely up to capacity for the loads it is trying to handle now. Imagine the hue and cry from the power retailers when their "gold plated" systems start buckling under the load of multiple EVs in a street all plugging in at around the same time. Back to "brownouts" sound like fun?

There is nothing to say highway charges stations won't rival small shopping centres and be sizeable solar/wind power stations in their own right. Just like service stations on the side of highways these days have grown into feeding stations with large car parks more than service stations with mechanical services, charge stations will similar but just have more parking. There is also nothing to say as glass has been developed to become a solar conductor for high rise buildings, the paint or surfaces that receive wind don't also become charging surfaces in their own right on a vehicle. Its what the technical revolution is all about. I'm sure the farmers were very concerned at the end of the farming revolution as the industrial revolution phased them out.

Its also not green washing, the common belief that greenies hinder commercial growth needs a big re think. Its middle to late aged men in positions of power of traditional companies that can't deal with change that hinder commercial development, the sacred CEO so to speak. The potential jobs of the future far exceeds whats on offer, plus growth that is far more sustainable for the planet, new manufacturing opportunities, and recycling options are just so big and broard compared to keeping fossil fuel as the business as usual model. It seems to be only America and Australia that are willing to watch the earth slide away while the rest of the developed world is keen to embrace EV and sustainable technology. And yes just like the horse and cart became worthless, so will anything that uses fossil fuel to get around for the vast majority of us.

[manic]

Good job those oily oldies in profitable positions dont live forever. But they will be vocal for another four decades at least.

When we look back at history, we see rapid change. But in our own lifetimes, we dont get to see that much. Out with the old, in with the new!

[biggin]

Don’t forget the hover board.
I think it’s nice that the kiddies these days have such vivid imaginations.

[newhue]

Good job those oily oldies in profitable positions dont live forever. But they will be vocal for another four decades at least.

When we look back at history, we see rapid change. But in our own lifetimes, we dont get to see that much. Out with the old, in with the new!


indeed, but these days we have the internet and far lees controlled advertising from the cash cows. They may use politicians as pawns but they can't stop people talking. They are working on it however.
Droughts in places that should be cold, heat waves in places that don't have heat waves, wild fires, floods, cyclones at ever increasing intensity, ice melting like it has a flame thrower on not, and much of it is random and out of season. Just what those whacky climate change scientist have been saying. Not all 100% accurate in intensity, but 100% in activity. I used to eat meat but never liked the amount of land clearing I witnessed travelling, it always didn't sit well. So I changed to roo thinking that would be better. Then I happen to watch a couple documentaries on the free internet that a client told me about, it all made sense from my observations and experiences, so I just gave up meat and dairy full stop and have never felt better. Physically and mentally, and I feel like I'm 25 although I'm 47. I give blood, have no health issues, and can walk 6 hours with 24kg rucksack on my back no problems. This change is almost 2 years ago now. So rapid change is possible, and I would argue for the better financially, personally, family, planet wise, and don't see any negatives to it except not following the crowd.

some viewing if your interested

Before the Flood: Leonardo DiCaprio attempt to wake up people from what we have all been socialised into.
What the Health: One of the many vegan funded moves dissolving industy myths around marketing, health issues, cruelty, and climate change related to food production from farming animals.
The Third Industrial Revolution: by an economist that helps out Germany and China, gives us a possible road map of the future if you dare. Guess who listened.

[PhilipA]

Hallelujah, pass the ammunition!
There aren't any more pious than those who are recently converted.

Thank goodness there are only a few people who have converted.

I thought about reporting this thread for the emerging religious fervor.

FACTS hurricanes have diminished according to NOAA, wildfires in California are only a fraction of what they were 200 years ago. It's just there are more people affected. And no forest thinning.

FACT The low point of ice an the Arctic was in 2007. It has been recovering since. FACT Polar bears are increasing greatly in numbers

FACT Coral Bleaching on the barrier reef is 10% more than 200 years ago.

FACT the Antarctic is increasing in ice mass, despite the 70 or so volcanoes recently discovered under.

Regards Philip A

[biggin]

Haven’t you heard. The science is settled!

[goingbush]

Science smience , who cares about the planet anyway.

I converted for selfish reasons .

In my Landy I Never have to queue up for or pay for petrol again.
I never have to open the bonnet for daily / weekly checks / 100% reliable !
Never have to put up with the horrible exhaust fume stink & back of my head smelling like an oily rag when've ever I drive with the canvas rolled up.
I can drive to the local shops 5 minuets away from dead cold & not need to warm the engine up for fear of buggering it on short trips.
4WD ing is a way better with 100% torque from zero & woo hoo I have hill descent.
So many other reasons , all of them selfish , As I said before I'm not a greenie , nothing I do will save the planet ,
... but if lots of us do something ???

[bee utey]

Hallelujah, pass the ammunition!
There aren't any more pious than those who are recently converted.

Thank goodness there are only a few people who have converted.

I thought about reporting this thread for the emerging religious fervor.

FACTS hurricanes have diminished according to NOAA, wildfires in California are only a fraction of what they were 200 years ago. It's just there are more people affected. And no forest thinning.

FACT The low point of ice an the Arctic was in 2007. It has been recovering since. FACT Polar bears are increasing greatly in numbers

FACT Coral Bleaching on the barrier reef is 10% more than 200 years ago.

FACT the Antarctic is increasing in ice mass, despite the 70 or so volcanoes recently discovered under.

Regards Philip A

The billions of people in the Northern Hemisphere currently experiencing record heat waves would consider you to be talking out of your Southern Hemisphere... [bighmmm]

[PhilipA]

The billions of people in the Northern Hemisphere currently experiencing record heat waves would consider you to be talking out of your Southern Hemisphere...

Mate I lived in Saudi Arabia and drove to Europe in one of the most severe heat waves experienced in 1986.
Hundreds died in Athens. In Turkey there was no reliable electricity to run the air conditioning as they were in the middle of building more coal fired stations.

There have always been heat waves, but cold kills far more people than heat.

Oh, I forgot the record cold winter in Canada and the USA this year was because of climate change!


Regards Philip A

[goingbush]

Australia's fuel stockpile is perilously low, so why aren't we stocking up? - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-05-09/australias-liquid-fuel-stockpile-perilously-low-energy-security/9742340'smid=Page:%20ABC%20News-Facebook_Organic&WT.tsrc=Facebook_Organic&sf189119559=1)

[goingbush]

Sooner that you thought

Electrification across entire Toyota line-up by 2025 - Toyota (http://blog.toyota.co.uk/electrification-across-entire-toyota-line-up-from-2025)

[goingbush]

here we go

Ce camping car a energie solaire fonctionne sans carburant ni station de recharge (https://www.espritsciencemetaphysiques.com/camping-car-a-energie-solaire.html)

[biggin]

The billions of people in the Northern Hemisphere currently experiencing record heat waves would consider you to be talking out of your Southern Hemisphere... [bighmmm]
Comment withdrawn.

[newhue]

Australia's fuel stockpile is perilously low, so why aren't we stocking up? - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-05-09/australias-liquid-fuel-stockpile-perilously-low-energy-security/9742340'smid=Page:%20ABC%20News-Facebook_Organic&WT.tsrc=Facebook_Organic&sf189119559=1)

Thailand has piles of plastic in dumps as we do, however they turn their plastic into diesel in a process designed by Americans. Its has no pollution and I believe things cycle around a few times before the diesel is produced. A asked our fearless leaders when it his the news we only had 45 days supply, why doesn't Australia try this and gain some independence in case of conflict, and clean up much of our plastics destined to be buried as land fill. I got silance.

[newhue]

Hallelujah, pass the ammunition!
There aren't any more pious than those who are recently converted.

Thank goodness there are only a few people who have converted.

I thought about reporting this thread for the emerging religious fervor.

FACTS hurricanes have diminished according to NOAA, wildfires in California are only a fraction of what they were 200 years ago. It's just there are more people affected. And no forest thinning.

FACT The low point of ice an the Arctic was in 2007. It has been recovering since. FACT Polar bears are increasing greatly in numbers

FACT Coral Bleaching on the barrier reef is 10% more than 200 years ago.

FACT the Antarctic is increasing in ice mass, despite the 70 or so volcanoes recently discovered under.

Regards Philip A


What was that about ammunition, seems you better check some facts. And no Philip, no religious beliefs for me, but I do believe in the nature being bigger and grander than any of us, doesn't hurt to respect what you can touch and fell.
2012 Arctic Report Card | NOAA Climate.gov (https://www.climate.gov/news-features/features/2012-arctic-report-card)
Global Warming Frequently Asked Questions | NOAA Climate.gov (https://www.climate.gov/news-features/understanding-climate/global-warming-frequently-asked-questions#show7)

[PhilipA]

I give up.
it's impossible to debate with religion.

I just checked the 2018 maximum ice extent figures vs 2011 and they are down by 00.27%. Oh the horror.

Al Gore was sort of right when he said all the ice would be gone by when was it 2014? And of course New York is certainly under water by now . Didn't James Hanson predict that in 2007 with lovely graphics? And our own Tim Flannery predicted what was it? 5 metres of sea level rise by 2015 ( then bought a house 1metre above sea level which he has now sold and is still not under water). And all the poor sods who had houses a few metres above sea level got insurance increases of up to 500% because of the nutty prediction.

Using very old figures is a common trait of the religious. Conditions change so thinking should change.

Nobody knew about the volcanoes under Antarctic until last year.

[biggin]

Thailand has piles of plastic in dumps as we do, however they turn their plastic into diesel in a process designed by Americans. Its has no pollution and I believe things cycle around a few times before the diesel is produced. A asked our fearless leaders when it his the news we only had 45 days supply, why doesn't Australia try this and gain some independence in case of conflict, and clean up much of our plastics destined to be buried as land fill. I got silance.

Whoever responded with “silance” was being kind.

[bee utey]

Nobody knew about the volcanoes under Antarctic until last year.

Thanks for that, I didn't know about that, so I looked it up. Strangely enough, the top search results were about scientists who went out and sampled the ocean, looked for certain isotope ratios, did the number crunching and worked out that volcano heating adds 3 poofteenths of bugger all to the melting rates.

What to believe, anecdotes with random factoids or scientific data backed by rigorous analysis? Ooh, a hard one, for sure.

Anyway, in other news, Range Rover plug-in hybrids have been test driven by journos, apparently they can do around 30 miles on battery power alone and are backed by a 4 cylinder petrol engine. Baby steps. [bigsmile1]

[goingbush]

LandRover built this in 1993 , they have been twiddling their thumbs for 25 years.

The Dunsfold Collection : Electric LandRover: (http://www.dunsfoldcollection.co.uk/collection/military/ser-iii-military-electric-drive-prototype)

[PhilipA]

dds 3 poofteenths of bugger all to the melting rates.

Mate the real answer is "they don't know " . They are guessing.

In any case the ice is increasing in volume so it couldn't be too important unless one really goes up.

Re the plug in Hybrids.
I read recently that 40% ? of Velar orders are for plug in hybrids, so the financial district of London is really getting on board.

[Bigbjorn]

400,000 miles in three years is only 2570 miles per week. Quite easily achievable on a 600 mile round trip shuttle service on an 80 mph freeway. I had line haul trucks and I reckoned one truck owner-drivers were not making any money unless they did 150,000 per year.

[Homestar]

Whats wrong with taking a break every 2 hours to avoid fatigue. A 20 minute charge, coffee, stretch doesn't seem that much longer then a fossil stop. There is the advantage when you stop you just plug it in and walk away, no need to stand there and hold the fill hose. Then if one must go if 20 minutes = 500km, 10 minutes will be another 250km. If one prides themselves on 750k in a day on a 10 minute stop, please only drive when no one else is on the road.

Driving 750km a day is my job, like many others here. It's a task that takes some time to become familiar with and good at, so someone that does 70km a day would struggle with going straight to 700 for example but every truck driver, delivery van driver, sales rep, etc does this day in day out - I'm not the only one that does this.

[goingbush]

Driving 750km a day is my job, like many others here. It's a task that takes some time to become familiar with and good at, so someone that does 70km a day would struggle with going straight to 700 for example but every truck driver, delivery van driver, sales rep, etc does this day in day out - I'm not the only one that does this.


Interesting , when were were touring for 5 years It was nothing at all to do 800 km in a day . Easily keep going except its no fun setting camp in the dark . But now we are in a House for a few years a 1.5 hour drive in a car is fatiguing .

[Silenceisgolden]

Interesting , when were were touring for 5 years It was nothing at all to do 800 km in a day . Easily keep going except its no fun setting camp in the dark . But now we are in a House for a few years a 1.5 hour drive in a car is fatiguing .

Could be that an Iveco is more relaxing to drive than a Series Land Rover, even with 'lectric silence......

Or dare I say - it could be aging. Thirty years ago I would happily do 1200 kilometres in a day on a motorbike, but now I reckon 500 k's in a comfortable, quiet car is about enough.

[goingbush]

Could be that an Iveco is more relaxing to drive than a Series Land Rover, even with 'lectric silence......

Or dare I say - it could be aging. Thirty years ago I would happily do 1200 kilometres in a day on a motorbike, but now I reckon 500 k's in a comfortable, quiet car is about enough.

Absolutely , but the 'car' I was referring to is a 2 year old Renault Captur , nice car to drive but = boring . Any distance over an hour and we do tend to take the Iveco .
Driving any distance over 30min on a 2" foam cushion & Leaf Springs does preclude me from having EV Range anxiety [bigwhistle].

[goingbush]

if you haven't seen this .....


https://youtu.be/Sw51nzQiWfw

[Homestar]

Oooh - would love to get my hands on one of these...


https://youtu.be/rq6z1hShFcE

[goingbush]

Bloody Fascinating , don't worry you'll be able to grab yourself one at 'Pick a Part' in 15 years !!

[cripesamighty]

I like this guy. He fixes busted Tesla's - with or without Elon's help!

YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuAMczraBIM)

[scarry]

Oooh - would love to get my hands on one of these...

Just imagine the R and D that would have gone into the whole process,including the manufacture and development of the automated machines,yet alone the finished product.

As for maintenance,one machine would only have to get a bit of wear,and the whole process could be upset.

[Homestar]

Just imagine the R and D that would have gone into the whole process,including the manufacture and development of the automated machines,yet alone the finished product.

As for maintenance,one machine would only have to get a bit of wear,and the whole process could be upset.

Yeah, absolutely amazing - the engineering of the plant itself before it even makes its first part is staggering.

[PhilipA]

Just on Rich rebuilds, I have seen about 10 of his documentaries and from that know a lot more about Teslas than you can get just from other information sources.

One of his recent docos looked at warranty problems . It turns out that just about every 2013-2015 model S has had to have multiple motor replacements from crook bearings etc . His doco shows dismantling a motor and replacing the bearings. Of course the motors have an 8 year warranty so it hasn't cost customers who paid full tilt anything yet.

He chronicles the really extreme rip off prices charged to fix minor body damage on Teslas, as they can only be fixed by approved repairers. In a recent doco he cites the experiences of some owners who have non warrantable things fixed like $6 for brake repairs. The door handles on early cars also give quite a bit of trouble and are not warranted. There have been several updates on the door handles and there is a bloke in the USA who does a fix kit for them. he also has a video on installing a high voltage charging point at home.

Luckily for Australians I don't think any of the early cars came to OZ.

I commend the Rich Rebuilds videos to you if you want to know a lot about Teslas from the perspective of someone who has rebuilt a Tesla without any technical information from Tesla.

I have to say I am very impressed y what Elon Musk has achieved so far , but his policies regarding technical help are poor. Sounds like how Land Rover treat specialists!

Regards Philip A

[goingbush]

Where have I heard this before

"Electric cars mights be Ok for city commutes but will never work for long distance touring"

https://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/40669605_10212708914621980_5368066013071933440_n.j pg?_nc_cat=0&oh=c0cd43854de6a7dd98f128bb9f40a2ba&oe=5C2ECABC

[bee utey]

Where have I heard this before

"Electric cars mights be Ok for city commutes but will never work for long distance touring"



Sylvia , 70, completes round-Australia trip in an EV for .... $150.90 | The Driven (https://thedriven.io/2018/08/28/sylvia-70-completes-round-australia-trip-in-an-ev-for-150-90/)

[ozscott]

Where have I heard this before

"Electric cars mights be Ok for city commutes but will never work for long distance touring"

https://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/40669605_10212708914621980_5368066013071933440_n.j pg?_nc_cat=0&oh=c0cd43854de6a7dd98f128bb9f40a2ba&oe=5C2ECABCSlide tray cut off just to right of photo....

[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

[goingbush]

Slide tray cut off just to right of photo....

[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

..... With a D4 on it [bigwhistle]

[Mick_Marsh]

Yep. Stopped there because he's run out of power.
Couldn't make it to the next charge point.

[Eevo]

quote from the article


Attitudes are turning. The problem is we still have the typical internal-combustion-engine-driver attitude that you need a service station on every corner, they want it to be quick and easy, don’t want to have to think about their trip.


thats correct, its a lifestyle choice.
i like to get in the car and drive, fill up, and keep driving.
EV doesnt fit my lifestyle.

[ozscott]

I will happily go.EV when it's pretty much as quick to charge at a servo as it is to fill the petrol tank...ie when the next round of battery tech comes in.

Cheers

[Eevo]

I will happily go.EV when it's pretty much as quick to charge at a servo as it is to fill the petrol tank...ie when the next round of battery tech comes in.

Cheers

lets say, you have a 100AH battery thats at 0%
and you want to charge it in 6min.

your charge rate would be 1000Amps. thats pretty high. might be possible with super capacitors?

[ozscott]

I'm no physicists but I wonder if the traditional laws of charge rates v amp hours will apply to the crop I'm talking about. They might. I just dont know and haven't had the time to look into it. See these for example.

Future batteries, coming soon: Charge in seconds, last months and power over the air - Pocket-lint (https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.pocket-lint.com/gadgets/news/130380-future-batteries-coming-soon-charge-in-seconds-last-months-and-power-over-the-air.amphtml)

Cheers

[Mick_Marsh]

I'm no physicists but I wonder if the traditional laws of charge rates v amp hours will apply to the crop I'm talking about. They might. I just dont know and haven't had the time to look into it. See these for example.

Future batteries, coming soon: Charge in seconds, last months and power over the air - Pocket-lint (https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.pocket-lint.com/gadgets/news/130380-future-batteries-coming-soon-charge-in-seconds-last-months-and-power-over-the-air.amphtml)

Cheers
This one is damned interesting.
Urine powered batteries are here to charge your mobile as you pee, paid for by Bill Gates - Pocket-lint (https://www.pocket-lint.com/gadgets/news/126043-urine-powered-batteries-are-here-to-charge-your-mobile-as-you-pee-paid-for-by-bill-gates)
Mind you, to get one big enough to drive a car, we will need totally autonomous vehicles and lots of breweries along the way.

[Eevo]

This one is damned interesting.
Urine powered batteries are here to charge your mobile as you pee, paid for by Bill Gates - Pocket-lint (https://www.pocket-lint.com/gadgets/news/126043-urine-powered-batteries-are-here-to-charge-your-mobile-as-you-pee-paid-for-by-bill-gates)
Mind you, to get one big enough to drive a car, we will need totally autonomous vehicles and lots of breweries along the way.

brings a new meaning to "****-up"

[goingbush]

This one is damned interesting.
Urine powered batteries are here to charge your mobile as you pee, paid for by Bill Gates - Pocket-lint (https://www.pocket-lint.com/gadgets/news/126043-urine-powered-batteries-are-here-to-charge-your-mobile-as-you-pee-paid-for-by-bill-gates)
Mind you, to get one big enough to drive a car, we will need totally autonomous vehicles and lots of breweries along the way.

Same Old Same old , The active constituent of the AdBlue is Urea , It would actually work if you ****ed in the AdBlue tank except they have sensors to make sure you don't.

[DiscoMick]

We recently did some pricing and could go 6.5 kw of solar plus all the batteries we need for about $18,000. Plug in a $30,000 or so Nissan Leaf or Mitsubishi EV with a 250-300 km range and our daily motoring costs would be covered. And the Defender with its 1000 km range would still be in the garage. All good.

[goingbush]

Bogans idea of a Tesla SuperCharger

https://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/44648998_1919543434794104_4463432453268176896_o.jp g?_nc_cat=109&_nc_ht=scontent-syd2-1.xx&oh=3132d4de203fa3872e07d193e5695d56&oe=5C40C7A1

[DiscoMick]

Visionary tunnel or over-hyped hole? Elon Musk's design unveiled in LA

Visionary tunnel or over-hyped hole? Elon Musk's design unveiled in LA | Technology | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/dec/18/elon-musk-boring-company-tunnel-party-tonight-los-angeles?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard)

[Homestar]

This is hilarious - it's just a tunnel. Built for around the same cost any tunnel of that size and length can be built for. I particularly like this bit - "But Musk’s underground construction arm, known as the Boring Company, has already envisioned a second- and third-generation technology that would simultaneously dig the hole, move the dirt out, and automatically install the reinforced concrete tunnel walls."

So a TBM as we know them already...

I just can't figure out 2 things - how this system will work - the graphics show cars being lowered into the tunnel system so a huge bottleneck compared to normal tunnels and secondly - why does the media fall for this guff?

I'm all for cleaning up traffic in Cities but this means mass transport systems not individual cars/pods/whatever - these will always (until we get FULLY autonomous vehicles) because everyone will still want to go to an exact spot while in a car and this will still cause gridlock no matter what you try and do.

Musk will soon be overrun by the big car manufacturers who are spending billions globally in EV development. Tesla may just be bought out as a high end arm of someone like VW and Musk will be consigned to a Wiki page.

Seriously thinking of taking an Ionic for a test drive in the new year too. [emoji106]

[DiscoMick]

Yeah the Ionic and Kona EVs look good value for money.

[goingbush]

This is hilarious - it's just a tunnel. Built for around the same cost any tunnel of that size and length can be built for. I particularly like this bit - "But Musk’s underground construction arm, known as the Boring Company, has already envisioned a second- and third-generation technology that would simultaneously dig the hole, move the dirt out, and automatically install the reinforced concrete tunnel walls."

So a TBM as we know them already...

I just can't figure out 2 things - how this system will work - the graphics show cars being lowered into the tunnel system so a huge bottleneck compared to normal tunnels and secondly - why does the media fall for this guff?

I'm all for cleaning up traffic in Cities but this means mass transport systems not individual cars/pods/whatever - these will always (until we get FULLY autonomous vehicles) because everyone will still want to go to an exact spot while in a car and this will still cause gridlock no matter what you try and do.

Musk will soon be overrun by the big car manufacturers who are spending billions globally in EV development. Tesla may just be bought out as a high end arm of someone like VW and Musk will be consigned to a Wiki page.

Seriously thinking of taking an Ionic for a test drive in the new year too. [emoji106]


Yeah, I haven't read into it , but the Tunnels are not for general public / road traffic to use , I get the impression they are for shuttles / pods as in a form of public transport.

Tesla will build the 'pods' for the Boring Company's Loop, says Elon Musk - Electrek (https://electrek.co/2018/06/15/tesla-build-pod-boring-company-loop-elon-musk/)

[Homestar]

Yeah, I haven't read into it , but the Tunnels are not for general public / road traffic to use , I get the impression they are for shuttles / pods as in a form of public transport.

Tesla will build the 'pods' for the Boring Company's Loop, says Elon Musk - Electrek (https://electrek.co/2018/06/15/tesla-build-pod-boring-company-loop-elon-musk/)

Regardless, it still won't work - just can't see how they will get enough pods in and out of the system to make it viable - even with Musks 'Generation 2 and 3 tunneling machines' - ie - TBM's - tunneling is grotesquely expensive. I doubt a cost benefit analysis would find it would work - current road tunnels need 100's of thousands od cars a day to make them economical and train tunnels need trains about 10 minutes apart max during peak hour (most cities twice this) to make them viable.

Just some back of the envelope calculations quickly show how futile this is. Based on the graphic in the article you linked, each pod would hold maybe 30 to 40 people? Melbourne's new High Capacity Trails which will run in the new Metro Rail Tunnel project hold 1380 people - and would be full during the peak. These will run 5 to 8 minutes apart through the tunnel, so during peak, so around 10,000 people per hour moved through each station area. To replace that with the pods, you would need 250 of those per hour - and we're talking just one busy route in the centre of a City here, not the whole system. So 4 per minute - you couldn't physically get 30 or 40 people on or off each pod in 15 seconds, the math just doesn't work for a system that would cost as much to build as any train Tunnel system in the world.

Pie in the sky BS from the BS master. Just another thing for the media to swoon over while capital investment companies keep shoveling money into his coffers.

[DiscoMick]

I think there are certainly a lot of unanswered questions, but at least he's having a go.
I understood the pods would not be private, but be public transport, autonomous and EVs. Is that right?

[Homestar]

Yeah, but there is no oversight or accountability with others money that he's spending and any analysis to see if this would actually works fails - not just me, but from countless others with far more expertise in the field. The questions aren't unanswered - they can be - and are - being answered now, but it's not what Musk or the teat suckling media want to hear. I'm not anti public transport or anti EV - we need more of both but most get labeled as such as soon as they have a go at Musk for some reason - In my opinion, he's just stealing other people money to play with. Most of his ideas and projects just don't stack up. If it was just 'having a go' with his personal wealth paying for things like this and the hyperloop, I wouldn't care about him wasting his money, but when he's spending money that's not his own that could be used for much better purposes - that grinds my gears...

Not sure how long it will be until everyone realises these things to be honest.

[DiscoMick]

Investors back him because they know it will only take one big idea to succeed and those who were behind him will clean up.
Besides Teslas are selling as fast as the company can pump them out, while other prestige sales are down.
Americans are more willing to bet on innovators than we Aussies, who want guarantees of profits before we will put up money, which is why so many Aussie discoveries go overseas to be manufactured - they can't get backing here.

[Homestar]

It’s not the Tesla’s - they’re great and I’m happy they are selling although I think they are on borrowed time now with the flood of mass produced EV’s about to hit the market.

Apart from Tesla, everything else Musk has done is a bust.

Inverstors do what they do, time will tell who’s right...

[DiscoMick]

Tesla cuts car prices and shuts stores as it shifts to online-only sales

Tesla cuts car prices and shuts stores as it shifts to online-only sales | Technology | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/mar/01/tesla-cuts-car-prices-and-shuts-stores-as-it-shifts-to-online-only-sales?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard)

[PhilipA]

Tesla cuts car prices and shuts stores as it shifts to online-only sales


I guess that Tesla is at present a "special Case" as the average Tesla owner in the USA has 5 cars, but usually people don't actually BUY cars they SELL cars.

At some point Tesla will be faced with the fact that people will want to trade in their old cars. I don't think that many buyers will want to sell their cars on the side of the road or via ebay.

Traditionally this has been through a dealer network and is one of the reasons that Land Rover struggles in Australia because it has a small dealer network. If Tesla is forced to introduce a dealer network the selling cost will rise by about 15%.

It gets more and more interesting.

Regards Philip A
New thought. what about warranty, service , accident damage repair? Do it on your iPhone?

[DiscoMick]

I think I read Tesla already delivers their cars to the buyer's house, so maybe they will pick it up for a service. There isn't much to service anyway, just fluids and brakes, so services are less frequent.

[DiscoMick]

SpaceX Crew Dragon spacecraft launches successfully

SpaceX Crew Dragon spacecraft launches successfully | Science | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/science/2019/mar/02/spacex-crew-dragon-spacecraft-successfully-launches?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard)

[Red90]

Tesla sells used cars as well as new. All with delivery and all online. And yes they will take your trade in.

[PhilipA]

I wouldn’t hold my breath to see model 3 in Australia now .
note now the USA Consumer Reports has withdrawn recommendation for Model 3 due to numerous quality problems.

regards Philip A

[Bigbjorn]

Tesla are quite a common sight in LA. You even see them on used car lots. One luxury used car dealer on the PCH at Redondo Beach had three of them in stock last time I was there. This yard usually had a display of Rollers, Ferrari, Maserati, top shelf Benz & Beemer, Viper, Corvette even plebeian Range Rovers.

[PhilipA]

Tesla cuts up to $85,000 off its models (https://www.msn.com/en-au/motoring/news/tesla-cuts-up-to-dollar85000-off-its-models/ar-BBUncGH?ocid=spartanntp)

Hmm not the best for resale value!

Regards Philip A

[Homestar]

Geez you wouldn't half happy if you'd bought one before they did this. I'd tear someone a new one if it happened to me.