What think you of this theory ?

[VladTepes]

Was flicking through a 4wd book at the local Bookworld today and it discussed various makes of 4wd.

The book mainatined that:

The Toyota LandCruiser was a copy / rip-off / developed from the Jeeps of the time.

The Nissan Patrol was a copy / rip-off / developed from the Land Rovers.


It's an interesting theory. The former does make some sense when you consider that during the occupation the Japanese would have been well used to seeing Jeeps all over the place. And Land Rovers were fairly ubiquitous after 1948.

Consider this:
Jeep
http://www.warbird-photos.com/riversideairshow03/images/PDRM7899.JPG
Land Cruiser 40 series
http://netrintala.com/bj40/bj40_2005.jpg

Land Rover Series 3
http://www.landys-landrovers.co.uk/images/landrovers/A527-RFO.jpg
Early Nissan Patrol
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Pit/3823/k60.jpg
and if that didn;t work, then this is the Nissan Thumbnail:
http://images.google.com.au/images?q=tbn:IJueLrsOwYjHMM:www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Pit/3823/k60.jpg

Well, whaddaya reckon :?:

[JDNSW]

Something happened to your Nissan picture - didn't appear.

Firstly, that is an FJ40 not a BJ40.

As far as styling goes I think you are absolutely correct, but I don't think that you can call a Landcruiser any more of a Jeep copy than the Landrover was (or Patrol), even if the Jeep looks more like a Landcruiser. And except for styling I think the Patrol probably took more after the Landcruiser than it did after Landrover, even though its engine was a copy of the BMC "C' series engine (actually with a licence I believe), where Landcruiser copied the Chev engine. (Just to confuse matters the BMC engine was a mirror image copy of the chev engine).

Neither the early Patrol or the early 'cruiser had much in common with the contemporary Landrover. Both were larger and more powerful, both had semifloating rear axles where Landrover had already dropped that, both had three speed gearboxes, where Landrover had four speed from the start. Landcruiser's steering linkage looked more like Landrover than Nissan's did, and none of them were much like the original Jeep, which was the ancestor of them all.

And, of course, the name Landcruiser is an obvious rip off of Landrover.

[seqfisho]

Originally posted by JDNSW


Firstly, that is an FJ40 not a BJ40.



How can you tell the difference from that picture, I dont see the bonnet up :roll:

FJ 40 = 2F 6cyl petrol motor

BJ 40 = 3B 4cyl diesel motor

Body is the same :wink:



And Vlad, we all know that the Japanese are the greatest copiers of all time so I certainly put some credance in your theory.


After all what else did they have to go off other than Jeeps and Landies.


Doubt the cruiser and patrol were original japanese ideas.


Ask about the landies from the snowy scheme :wink:

[JDNSW]

Originally posted by seqfisho+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(seqfisho)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-JDNSW


Firstly, that is an FJ40 not a BJ40.



How can you tell the difference from that picture, I dont see the bonnet up :roll:

FJ 40 = 2F 6cyl petrol motor

BJ 40 = 3B 4cyl diesel motor

Body is the same :wink:

And Vlad, we all know that the Japanese are the greatest copiers of all time so I certainly put some credance in your theory.

After all what else did they have to go off other than Jeeps and Landies.

Doubt the cruiser and patrol were original japanese ideas.

Ask about the landies from the snowy scheme :wink:[/b][/quote]

You could be right - on closer inspection I think it is a late enough body for it to have had the diesel available, in other words not a very early example, plus the body has been modified substantially. I haven't had much to do with Landcruisers since the mid sixties. Certainly they were no more original than Landrover was - all three were based on the Willys Jeep, which in turn was based on the Bantam Jeep. Which in turn owed a lot to the Austin 7.

[VladTepes]

OK I've relabelled the Toyota just to stop any argument https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

And just to throw another into the mix, this
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2006/03/13.jpgis a Patrol - looks like a Jeep rip-off to me.



Oh and it's not MY theory remember. We all know that the Japs copied the BRits (they did the same with bikes) but the contention of the theory in the book was who copied who.

[JDNSW]

Your earlier Patrol picture emphasises what I said - both were copies of the Jeep as was the Landrover. But the Patrol styling was a copy of Landrover's styling, as was the Mazda produced as a special for Burma.

The truth is probably that all car manufacturers look at what all their competitors are doing, worldwide, and copy what they are doing if they think it is worthwhile and they can get away with it.
The most obvious is styling, but there are probably lots of hidden ideas from door locks to type of seals to manufacturing processes. And a lot of these are probably so old that the patents have expired.
And all manufacturers buy in a lot of parts which are made by third parties who supply several manufacturers.
So it would be easy to show that almost any car is derived from some other car, and in some sense this is probably true. And the further forward we go the more it seems to happen, partly because nearly everything has been tried, partly because the companies are becoming more interconnected.

[D110V8D]

But the first landy was built on a Jeep chassis. So really the true originator is the Jeep.

No doubt the Japs copied one or both (Landy/Jeep) but Land Rover copied first.

[incisor]

the jeep owes a lot of history to the austins i believe....

and nissan did a lot of austin/morris gear under licence...

all very eciting stuff .....

[JDNSW]

Originally posted by incisor
the jeep owes a lot of history to the austins i believe....

and nissan did a lot of austin/morris gear under licence...

all very eciting stuff .....

The Bantam Jeep, which the Willys Jeep was a direct copy of, originated from tests of the Austin Seven for military use in the US, and I believe the basic dimensions were copied from it although little else. (Bantam assembled Austins in the US)

As I said above the engine in the first Patrols to appear here was a licence built BMC (previously Austin) 'C' Series engine, which in turn was a mirror copy of the prewar Chev engine (without a licence). Nissan also fitted the 'B' series engine to a number of cars, and I think the entire original Bluebird owed a lot to the A40, again, with the benefit of a licence.

[HSVRangie]

early toy motors were or looked like copy of leasland chev (SP)
nissan similar to austin.


yanks sponsored toymota and poms nissan Ibelieve. maybe wrong to.
old yarn from somewhere.
Michael.

[JDNSW]

Originally posted by HSVRangie
early toy motors were or looked like copy of leasland chev (SP)
nissan similar to austin.


yanks sponsored toymota and poms nissan Ibelieve. maybe wrong to.
old yarn from somewhere.
Michael.

See my post above.

[LoadedDisco]

Your theory looks correct.

But this is still happening in the car and 4x4 market. No originality.

Except for Land Rover (D3 Says it all) https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

[drivesafe]

Jeep also were the first to come out with a luxury 4x4, before the Range Rover

[one_iota]

Originally posted by seqfisho



Ask about the landies from the snowy scheme :wink:

Sir Leslie Thiess (Thiess Toyota) had the foresight to build Toyota's share of the market on the strength of his civil engineering exploits on the snowy scheme. He owned the sole rights for Toyota sales in Australia for many years.

What did Land Rover do?

How do you spell zilch.

Land Rover was still riding on the sheep's back. Gentlemen farmers. https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

[JDNSW]

Originally posted by drivesafe
Jeep also were the first to come out with a luxury 4x4, before the Range Rover

Yes - unless you consider the S1 80" station wagon a luxury 4x4.