Cheap zf oil finally

[lyonsy]

So looks like ford strangle hold on ZF oil is finally over :)
With even castrol now listing an oil along with other's and you can get 4L for $80 online CASTROL TRANSMAX DEXRON®-VI MERCON® LV

[Eevo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5X8qDDMC-o

[woko]

I've been using Penrite BMV. It's compatible with life guard 6, 8 and 9

[justinc]

..... sigh...
😑😑🙄🙄

[woko]

..... sigh...
[emoji58][emoji58][emoji849][emoji849]I understand your disappointment but penrite have released a service bulletin in 2010 that they are not recommending oils for the ZF 6 speeds until the technology becomes available to them to have a ZF warranted oil. The BMV was recommended from penrite for use of life guard 6 as of February 2018.

[loanrangie]

Woko, are you using it in a zf6 ?

[woko]

Woko, are you using it in a zf6 ?Yes. In a discovery 3 and 4

[DiscoClax]

Nulon also have a product claimed to be suitable and meeting all of the relevant specs. So there's a few that have claims around this (Castrol, Penrite, etc).

Penrite specifically state "...SUITABLE FOR USE WHERE SPECIFICATIONS BELOW ARE REQUIRED (FOR OUT OF WARRANTY SERVICE)" against Lifeguard 6/8/9 among many others.... which doesn't fill me with confidence. Despite claiming they meet ZF TE ML-11 and Ford WSS-M2C919-D and -M2C938-A and "ATF BMV may be used in ZF 6, 8 and 9 speed automatic transmissions where Lifeguard 6, 8 & 9 is recommended". Also the Penrite stuff is overall a thicker oil than LG6/8/9 and the Castrol and Nulon 'equivalents'.

However, without ZF as the manufacturer coming out and and specifically approving any of these, I think there's still an element of risk. I haven't seen anything concrete from ZF standing behind anything except their own LG6/8/9. Of course, it's in their best interests to NOT approve other products. Round and round we go...

[rick130]

Penrite are pretty good at going the costly route and gaining manufacturer licensing of their fluids, but it looks like ZF aren't interested.
I'm guessing their additive supplier has reverse engineered Life Guard and they must be pretty confident it at least matches the Shell fluid otherwise they wouldn't advertise it meets the spec, unlike a lot of blenders.

[101RRS]

Over the years various companies like Nulon and Penrite have claimed to make alternative products to LG6 only to have the claims withdrawn some time later - not sure if due to gearbox failures or for legal consumer reasons. with their current claims maybe they have fixed the issues, maybe not but in my view it is not worth the risk when LG6 is easily accessible for under $30 at Repco on sale weekends.

I am now doing a basic fluid change every second service and for about $100 extra for a service gives me peace of mind.

Garry

[loanrangie]

At under $50 for 4ltrs if it turns out to be a viable alternative it can mean more regular fluid changes for less cost, would you be confident in using it Rick ?

[rick130]

It's obvious ZF isn't interested in licensing any competing fluids, unlike GM with Dexron VI which is a shame.

Maybe let someone else do the experimenting over the next couple of years, at least until its proven.

[discorevy]

It's obvious ZF isn't interested in licensing any competing fluids, unlike GM with Dexron VI which is a shame.




could it be because they are 90% owned by the makers of the zeppelin and they're still having a bit of a sulk [bigwhistle]


Google Image Result for https://i.imgur.com/dfWGP3E.gif (https://goo.gl/images/R4SRbJ)

[p38arover]

Gulf Western say their Syn-TS is Lifeguard 6 compatible. Syn-TS 10W - Gulf Western Oil - Gulf Western Oil (http://www.gulfwestern.com.au/product/syn-ts/)


SYN-TS™ is suitable for use in ZF 6 Speed ZF6HP26 Transmissions.

In an email to me about L322 transmission fluid, GW wrote:


a product called Syn-TS, a full synthetic transmission fluid which meets the ZF TE-ML 11B specification. This specification is the ZF Lifeguardfluid 5 specification and what is required for your transmission. The Esso LT 71141 is no longer available, it is now called Mobil ATF LT 71141. Both our Syn-TS and the Mobil ATF LT 71141 meet this ZF TE-ML 11B specification.

[rick130]

Gulf Western say their Syn-TS is Lifeguard 6 compatible. Syn-TS 10W - Gulf Western Oil - Gulf Western Oil (http://www.gulfwestern.com.au/product/syn-ts/)



In an email to me about L322 transmission fluid, GW wrote:Ron, fluids such as Castrol Transmax Z are actually licensed 11b fluids which are fully synthetic Dexron IIIH fluids.
They aren't LG6 fluids so I'd take that email with a grain of salt.

[gromit]

2 years or so ago I used a Nulon oil in a ZF fitted in a Ford Territory.
Claimed to meet the ZF specs, I'll have to dig out the details.

Box had done 210,000km and the plastic pan sprung a leak. Did a half change with the Nulon oil and replaced the sump.
No problems but only kept the vehicle for another 6 months.

Colin

[fredd63]

Recently bought a Ford with ZF 6speed auto. Did a lot of research, trying to find replacement oil instead of ZF lifeguard. I came to the conclusion that any oil which claims to be "multi-vehicle" is a compromise, and may not suit the ZF. I think the trans is an excellent gearbox, and makes the car a pleasure to drive, so like garrycol said previously in this post, for the sake of $100 difference in price, I will stick to the specified oil.
cheers
pete

[gromit]

Recently bought a Ford with ZF 6speed auto. Did a lot of research, trying to find replacement oil instead of ZF lifeguard. I came to the conclusion that any oil which claims to be "multi-vehicle" is a compromise, and may not suit the ZF. I think the trans is an excellent gearbox, and makes the car a pleasure to drive, so like garrycol said previously in this post, for the sake of $100 difference in price, I will stick to the specified oil.
cheers
pete

What is it about the ZF design that means it needs a very specific oil ?

Are there any documented failures where use of the incorrect oil has been proven to be the cause ?

I understand why they won’t honour a warranty if you’re not using ‘their’ oil but on an older vehicle I’m happy to use an alternative if the manufacturer claims it meets the ZF spec.

Colin

[Geedublya]

What is it about the ZF design that means it needs a very specific oil ?

Are there any documented failures where use of the incorrect oil has been proven to be the cause ?

I understand why they won’t honour a warranty if you’re not using ‘their’ oil but on an older vehicle I’m happy to use an alternative if the manufacturer claims it meets the ZF spec.

Colin

My Independent used a non-ZF oil in my D4 changes were harsh, flaring was obvious. I used them because I trusted them, they were convenient and I didn't realise they would use a non-ZF oil. I went back after 6000km to my auto transmission specialist he flushed it and used LF6, changes returned to their previous smoothness with no flaring.
In my discussions with him he told me of taxis who were trying to save a buck using alternatives, both times the transmissions failed long before the taxis using LF6. He sees taxis with over 800000km with no transmission problems using LF6.

[gromit]

My Independent used a non-ZF oil in my D4 changes were harsh, flaring was obvious. I used them because I trusted them, they were convenient and I didn't realise they would use a non-ZF oil. I went back after 6000km to my auto transmission specialist he flushed it and used LF6, changes returned to their previous smoothness with no flaring.
In my discussions with him he told me of taxis who were trying to save a buck using alternatives, both times the transmissions failed long before the taxis using LF6. He sees taxis with over 800000km with no transmission problems using LF6.

Not a long term test but at 200,000km on the original oil I did a half change with a Nulon equivalent and no issues with changing. It was in a Ford Territory rather than a Land Rover.

Colin

[CU55TM Disco]

I was poking about on the interballz a while back, researching Penrite oil for my D2 auto. I stumbled upon a thread on the FordPerformance forums where a bloke had done a change in his 6 speed auto falcon turbo from OEM oil to "something else", changes were rubbish, he then flushed and serviced and filled with a Gulf Western Product and trans operation went back to normal.

Funnily enough, I was at Auto Trans Services earlier in the week, pricing a service on the aformentioned disco and he uses exclusivly Gulf Western, I did also question him on the geniune ZF oil but he soley uses the GW now.

[loanrangie]

The territory box is a ford copy of a zf (6r80) but is it the same as used in the falcon ? Wondering how much a difference there is to a genuine zf box.

[donh54]

The territory box is a ford copy of a zf (6r80) but is it the same as used in the falcon ? Wondering how much a difference there is to a genuine zf box.

From the 'Net....

Sydney Morning Herald - 1 April 2005

Ford will have the most technically advanced automatic transmission in an Australian-made car when an updated Falcon goes on sale in October.
In a major coup, Ford's performance and luxury models will be available with a six-speed automatic transmission - the first time such a gearbox has been fitted to a locally made car.
Significantly, Ford will leapfrog Holden, which amid much fanfare late last year released a five-speed automatic gearbox for its V6-powered performance and luxury models.
The Falcon's six-speed automatic is being sourced from the respected German transmission specialist, ZF.
Ford Australia will not confirm what changes, if any, are to be made to the Falcon later this year to bring the range into line with the latest emission standards, as well as to give it a visual freshen-up before Holden releases an all-new Commodore in March next year. (An all-new Falcon is not due until 2007).

A number of Ford Falcon GTs with German number plates have been spotted in the car park at ZF's German head office and Drive's European sources have confirmed they are being tested with the new six-speed transmission.
The Falcon's six-speed automatic will be far more expensive than the humble four-speed auto it replaces.
For this reason, Drive understands the six-speed will be reserved for the upstream models such as the Fairmont Ghia, Fairlane and LTD and the performance models such as the XR6 Turbo, Typhoon, XR8 (pictured) and GT. It is expected the rest of the range will retain the four-speed auto.

Other makers to use the Falcon's new six-speed automatic include Jaguar and Aston Martin - brands owned by Ford's luxury division, the Premier Automotive Group.
Drive believes that Ford has used its enormous buying power to lower the costs and enable such an expensive and technically advanced gearbox to be fitted to Falcons.

Ford was forced to fit an expensive ZF gearbox because no other automatic could comfortably and reliably handle the huge power outputs of Ford's latest range of engines.
The shift to a ZF gearbox is certain to take Holden by surprise, in more ways than one: first, that Ford is prepared to get such an exotic transmission and, second, that it can afford it.
Ever since the disaster that was the AU Falcon, Ford has adopted a policy to be a technical leader wherever possible. The AU Falcon was built to a price - and it showed - while the BA was built to a higher standard of excellence at a substantial cost.
Fortunately, Ford's investment has been rewarded with stronger Falcon sales, although the company says there is still room for improvement on the sales charts.
...........
From motoring.com.au - August 13 2013 regarding the "new" Falcon line.....

Tipped to be dubbed ‘FH’, the update of the FG Falcon will go on-sale in the third quarter of 2014 and will be the last before the nameplate is killed off and local Ford manufacturing ceases no later than October 2016.
All six-cylinder cars will get Ford’s China-sourced ZF six-speed automatic transmission from the EcoBoost Falcon, although the current high-torque six-speed ZF auto carries on in XR6 Turbo and supercharged Miami V8s.
ZF will stop producing the latter soon and Ford Australia is stockpiling them rather than investing in local development of the eight-speed ZF unit that replaces it. As such, Ford Australia is currently calculating how many high-torque ZFs it will need until Falcon production ends.
............

From Wikipedia (ZF 6HP transmissions) .....

The ZF 6HP was the first six-speed automatic transmission in a production passenger car. Released as the 6HP26 by ZF Friedrichshafen in 2000, it was manufactured by ZF Getriebe GmbH in Saarbrücken, Germany. Other variations of the first generation 6HP in addition to the 6HP26, were 6HP19, and 6HP32 having lower and higher torque capacity, respectively.

In 2007, the second generation of the 6HP series was introduced, with models 6HP21 and 6HP28. A 6HP34 was planned, but never went into production.

The 6HP uses a Lepelletier epicyclic/planetary gearset, which can provide more gear ratios with significantly fewer components. This means the 6HP26 is actually lighter than its five-speed 5HP predecessors. It also has the capability to achieve torque converter lock-up on all six forward gears, and disengage it completely when at a standstill, dramatically closing the fuel efficiency gap between automatic and manual transmissions.

6HP26
The 6HP26 was the original variation of the 6HP, released in 2000. It was rated for a maximum input torque of 600 newton metres (443 lbf⋅ft). It was first used by the BMW 7 Series (E65) in 2001. Initially reserved for high end luxury and sports cars, ZF made the 6HP26 available to Hyundai for use on its 2009 model year V8 Genesis.

Several versions of the 6HP26 are available depending on application and brand: 6HP26, 6HP26A and 6HP26X.

Applications
Ford has developed their own versions (6R60 and 6R80) based on the 6HP26. Therefore, certain Ford vehicles will not be listed.

Two-wheel drive version:

2001–2008 BMW 7 Series (E65)[3] 730i, 735i, 745i, 760i, 730d and 740d
2002–2005 Jaguar XK8/XKR (X100)
2003–2012 Aston Martin DB9
2003–2010 BMW 5 Series (E60)
2003–2010 BMW 6 Series (E63)
2009–2012 Hyundai Genesis Sedan 4.6 liter V8
2003–2008 Jaguar S-Type
2003–2009 Jaguar XJ (X350)
2003–2012 Rolls-Royce Phantom
2004–2006 BMW X5 (E53) V8
2005–2011 BMW 3 Series (E90)
2005–2016 Ford Falcon (BF,[7] FG,[8] FG X turbocharged inline-six and V8)[2] Although production of the transmission ended in 2014, Ford retained sufficient inventory to last until end of Falcon production in 2016.
2005–2014 Ford Territory (SY AWD;[9] SZ petrol)
2006–2010 Jaguar XK/XKR (X150)
2007–2013 BMW X5 (E70), except 4.0d
2007–2012 Maserati Quattroporte
2007–present Rolls-Royce Phantom Drophead Coupé
2008–2012 Aston Martin DBS V12
2008–2012 BMW 7 Series (F01), except 740d xDrive, 760i/Li and Hybrid 7
2008–2011 Kia Mohave
2008–2012 Jaguar XF (X250)
2006–2009 Bentley Arnage
2008–2011 Bentley Brooklands
2010–2014 Aston Martin Rapide
2011 Hyundai Equus
2011-2012 Aston Martin Virage
2012-2014 Aston Martin Vanquish
6HP26A
The 6HP26A is a variation of the 6HP26 for four-wheel drive applications. It was used by the Volkswagen Group for some permanent four-wheel drive models.

Applications
2002–2016 Volkswagen Phaeton (Typ 3D)
2003–2009 Audi A8 (D3, Typ 4E)
2006–2009 Audi S8 (D3, Typ 4E)
2003–present Bentley Continental GT
2005–present Bentley Continental Flying Spur
2006–2011 Audi S6 (C6, Typ 4F)
2008–2010 Audi RS6 (C6, Typ 4F)
6HP26X
The 6HP26X is another variation of the 6HP26, also for four-wheel drive applications. This transmission is suitable for 4WDs with a separate transfer box (the "X" stands for external 4WD).

Applications
2006–2013 Range Rover, all with Jaguar type engines or TDV8
2006–2013 Range Rover Sport, 4.4- and 5.0-litre AJV8 models
2005–2013 Land Rover Discovery
2007 BMW X3 (E83) 3.0d (some models)
2005–2011 BMW 330d (E90/91) Xdrive

The last 6HP automatic transmission was produced by the Saarbrücken plant in March 2014 after 7,050,232 units were produced. The ZF plant in Shanghai continued to produce the 6HP for the Chinese market.
6HP21
The 6HP21 was a low-torque variation of the 6HP produced in China.
Applications
2014–2016 Ford Falcon (FG X inline-four and naturally-aspirated inline-six)
2014–2016 Ford Territory (SZ II petrol)
2010-2012 BMW 320d Lci (Thailand) (Engine N47D20)
.........

And an update from Wikipedia (Ford 6R transmissions).....

The Ford 6R80 is based on the ZF 6HP26 6 speed automatic transmission. Ford manufactures the transmission under license from ZF at the Livonia Transmission Plant in Livonia, Michigan. The 6R80 is featured in 2009 to present Ford F-150 pickups. It features torque converter lockup capabilities in all 6 gears and an integrated "Tow/Haul" mode for enhanced engine braking and towing performance. For the 2011 model year, the transmission was revised to provide smoother shifts, improved fuel economy, and overall better shift performance. Most notable of the improvements was the addition of a 1 way clutch that provided smoother 1-2 up-shifts and 2-1 down-shifts. The transmission has a relatively low 1st gear and two overdrive gears, the highest of which is 0.69:1. This provides exceptional towing performance when needed, while maximizing fuel economy by offering low engine speeds while cruising.

The 6R80 can be found behind the 3.7L V-6 all the way up to the 6.2L V-8. Ford has stated that while the transmission is used in multiple applications, each transmission is optimized and integrated differently depending on the engine it is mated to. The 6R80 features "Filled for Life" low viscosity synthetic transmission fluid (MERCON LV), though a fluid flush is recommended at 150,000 miles if your truck falls under the classification of "Severe Duty" operation. The transmission, as used in the Ford F-150, has a fluid capacity of 13.1 quarts and weighs 215 lbs

Applications:

2009–present Ford F-150
2009–present Ford Expedition
2009–present Lincoln Navigator
2011–2016 Ford Territory (SZ TCDi)
2011-2017 Ford Mustang V6, GT, Ecoboost(15-17)
2011-present Ford Ranger 2.2L, 3.2L
2015-present Ford Transit
.....

[gromit]

The territory box is a ford copy of a zf (6r80) but is it the same as used in the falcon ? Wondering how much a difference there is to a genuine zf box.

Territory petrol is ZF, diesel is 6R80 (same as the Ranger) as in the above post.
6R80 uses Mercon LV which is a lot cheaper than Lifeguard 6.

Colin

[rick130]

One of the main contributors to the formulation is the type of friction material used in the clutches.
This determines the fiction modifiers used.
Them if any strange wear things happen the AW and EP components are altered, etc.

Back in the old days of the TH400 vs Ford's C4 the friction characteristics were almost opposite.
Strangely the C6 used GM Dex II or III!

[Grappler]

My local Repco recommended Penrite ATF BMV as a suitable alternative to LG6

The following is from the Penrite blurb.
The TYK500050 is the Landrover part # for LG6
ATF BMV (Full Syn) | Penrite Oil (https://www.penriteoil.com.au/products/atf-bmv-full-syn#/)



"ATF BMV is a highly advanced, low viscosity, Full Synthetic, multi vehicle automatic transmission fluid designed for the latest generation of European, Asian and US sourced Automatic Transmissions. It utilises the latest Additive technology for optimum performance, durability and shift quality in modern multi-speed automatic transmissions.

APPLICATIONS
ATF BMV is suitable for long drain use in 5 + speed automatic transmissions in passenger cars, 4WDs and Light Duty commercial vehicles.

ATF BMV may be used in ZF 6, 8 and 9 speed automatic transmissions where Lifeguard 6, 8 & 9 is recommended in vehicles such as

Alfa Romeo Aston Martin Audi Bentley BMW Chrysler
Citroen Dodge Fiat Ford Honda Hyundai
Iveco Jaguar Jeep Kia Land Rover Maserati
Ram Rolls Royce Volkswagen and many others
ATF BMV can also be used in Mercedes Benz and Chrysler vehicles where MB 236.10, MB 236.11, MB 236.12, MB 236.13, and MB 236.14 are specified in Mercedes Benz 5 speed W5A 580 / NAG1, NAG2V Sport Transmissions and 7 G-Tronic models W7A 700 / NAG2.

Note: Not for use in 722.9, NAG2FE applications or where MB 236.15 or MB 236.16 is specified.

ATF BMV may be used in Ford Falcon BF-FG series 6 Speed automatic transmissions where MERCON®-SP is specified as well as in the 6R80 6 speed transmissions used in Ford PX Ranger and Mazda BT50 models. It can also be used in BMW X5, 5/6 and 7 series, Aston Martin DBS/DB9, Jaguar XK8, XKR, S Type and in Chrysler 300 series, Jeep Grand Cherokee and Cherokee series that use ZF 8 and 9 speed automatic transmissions as well as many other vehicles.

REPLACES OEM PART NUMBERS
Audi TL 52533 (G052 533), G055 005 A1/A2/A6, G 060 162 A1/A2/A6 ATF
Bentley PY112995PA
BMW PY112995PA, 8322 0142516, 8322 2152426
Chrysler Part No. 68157995AA, 68218925GA
Citroen Z000169756
Hyundai Oil No. 040000C90SG
Jaguar Part Number 02JDE 26444, JLM20238, Fluid 8432
Land Rover Part No. LR023288, TYK500050
Maserati 231603
Mercedes Benz A0019892203
Porsche 999.917.547.00
VW Part No. G 060 162 A1/A2/A6 ATF, G055 005 A1/A2/A6, VW TL 52533 (G052 533)
ZF No. S671 090 255 (Lifeguard 6), ZF No. S671 090 (Lifeguard 8), ZF No. AA01.500.001 (Lifeguard 9)
ATF BMV is also suitable for Power Steering systems requiring a low viscosity automatic transmission fluid as well as rotary vane and screw type compressors and Hydraulic systems requiring an ISO 32 oil.

Please Note: Not for use in Dual Clutch Transmissions (DCT) or Continuously Variable Transmissions (CVT). Please refer to Penrite Recommendation Guide."

[theelms66]

They are all coming out of the woodwork now . Lifeguard 5 and 6https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190523/d8f451819fb4d2fee6c8fb1edcb7d249.jpg

[101RRS]

They are all coming out of the woodwork now . Lifeguard 5 and 6https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190523/d8f451819fb4d2fee6c8fb1edcb7d249.jpg
That was around about 5years ago as an alternative to LG6 and its use as an option for LG6 was withdrawn - on the assumptions that problems cropped up. There are a few threads on this.

I would be wary if it is back on the market as an alternative to LG6.

You can get LG6 in bulk from ZF for about $23 a litre and in 1 litre bottles from Repco for about $28 when on special. Really in the life of the gearbox the cost is not a lot more.

garry

[theelms66]

Don't know if still around .came up on supercheap website.

[rar110]

How many litres for a 6hp26, without the full flush? I’m thinking of doing a 50k km change has mine will have the lead free stator bush problem.

[justinc]

How many litres for a 6hp26, without the full flush? I’m thinking of doing a 50k km change has mine will have the lead free stator bush problem.

6.to 6.5 for a standard filter change/ service .

[theelms66]

That was around about 5years ago as an alternative to LG6 and its use as an option for LG6 was withdrawn - on the assumptions that problems cropped up. There are a few threads on this.

I would be wary if it is back on the market as an alternative to LG6.

You can get LG6 in bulk from ZF for about $23 a litre and in 1 litre bottles from Repco for about $28 when on special. Really in the life of the gearbox the cost is not a lot more.

garryStill available today so dont know whats going on https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190525/861d285983e909325cadc05270c9b12c.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190525/5150f496d795acfb574cce7543f100a3.jpg

[101RRS]

Maybe they changed the formula and relisted it as being suitable as a replacement for LG6.

The oil has been around for years and was never withdrawn. What changed is that it was initially listed as being suitable as a LG6 replacement. After some time the LG6 option was removed from its compatibility list which was a few years back, now they are saying it is now suitable.

Hey it your car and if you are happy with it then use it - it will initially work fine and if there are issues these will not show up for many tens of thousands of km later.

For me - I pay on average $28 for my LG6 and am happy to change 3 litres every 20,000km for a cost of about $80 - about the same as the cost of my engine oil change so really no big deal - small bikkies in the scheme of things.

I find it amazing that people buy expensive vehicles and then skimp on servicing costs.

Garry

[loanrangie]

Maybe they changed the formula and relisted it as being suitable as a replacement for LG6.

The oil has been around for years and was never withdrawn. What changed is that it was initially listed as being suitable as a LG6 replacement. After some time the LG6 option was removed from its compatibility list which was a few years back, now they are saying it is now suitable.

Hey it your car and if you are happy with it then use it - it will initially work fine and if there are issues these will not show up for many tens of thousands of km later.

For me - I pay on average $28 for my LG6 and am happy to change 3 litres every 20,000km for a cost of about $80 - about the same as the cost of my engine oil change so really no big deal - small bikkies in the scheme of things.

I find it amazing that people buy expensive vehicles and then skimp on servicing costs.

GarrySays he who reused the compressor dessicant.

[101RRS]

Says he who reused the compressor dessicant.

And your point is?

And by the way - the dessicant was new when it went in (yes it had been on the shelf but was the correct brown [some say orange] colour and when checked after the fault was still evident later that day, some of the beads had changed colour so heated them to remove the little bit of moisture that they had sucked in on the test runs. A standard process if you new anything about these cars.

The old dessicant, the filters, the piston guide and and the ring were all disposed of and not reused.

So once again - and your point is?